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Discussion Where the hell is 2D Mario??

Quillion said:
So what I'm getting is that they banked on MM2's evergreen-ness to support yet another GaaS model. It seems that the audience expected the GaaS model to support the game's evergreen-ness instead.

It really does seem that Nintendo is particularly awful with the GaaS model, especially in the past few years. Sure, the vast majority of GaaS implementations even outside of Nintendo waste what could be a great idea, but with the Mario spin-offs in particular going from solid, content-filled side games circa the Wii years to barebones husks, there's clearly a lot more a GaaS Mario spin-off needs to do than just coast on the Mario branding.

When will all these GaaS abusers, Nintendo and others, realize that the model only really works for one-game franchises like Minecraft and Fortnite? AFAIK, the traditional sequel model and the GaaS model just don't mix.
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That sounds accurate, though COVID certainly accelerated the process. I imagine that, if the pandemic didn't happen, we might have at least gotten the full SMB2 theme, just as how we likely would have gotten those Animal Crossing updates sooner.

I feel like the only true success story for free update GAAS Nintendo games is Splatoon, with both it and its sequel working well on that model. I mean, I wouldn't say the older Mario sports games were oozing with content, but they've been a bit empty lately, though given that it's honestly a modes problem more than anything, the GAAS model that prioritized more characters didn't exactly help. I'd say Golf benefitted the most from its updates - New Donk City in particular was a fantastic DLC course. Honestly, though, that's a complaint I can leverage for most of the GAAS Nintendo games - the updates add more but don't address core flaws. ARMS updates didn't solve its lack of modes, Kirby Star Allies added more but didn't make the main adventure's lacking level design any more interesting, New Horizons got its holidays and a meaty paid expansion but that didn't make villager interactions any more interesting, and so on.

Mario Maker 2 is an interesting case because its problem was twofold: the promised online multiplayer was not at launch and was rough, and updates weren't anywhere as frequent as with the first game (wonder how much of that was resources and how much of that was tied to the multiplayer...), which probably didn't do well to keep retention. Add the need for more resources in dev and COVID swinging in, and I can see why they chose not to keep going with Maker 2, as much as it pains me.
 
VolcanicDynamo said:
That sounds accurate, though COVID certainly accelerated the process. I imagine that, if the pandemic didn't happen, we might have at least gotten the full SMB2 theme, just as how we likely would have gotten those Animal Crossing updates sooner.

I feel like the only true success story for free update GAAS Nintendo games is Splatoon, with both it and its sequel working well on that model. I mean, I wouldn't say the older Mario sports games were oozing with content, but they've been a bit empty lately, though given that it's honestly a modes problem more than anything, the GAAS model that prioritized more characters didn't exactly help. I'd say Golf benefitted the most from its updates - New Donk City in particular was a fantastic DLC course. Honestly, though, that's a complaint I can leverage for most of the GAAS Nintendo games - the updates add more but don't address core flaws. ARMS updates didn't solve its lack of modes, Kirby Star Allies added more but didn't make the main adventure's lacking level design any more interesting, New Horizons got its holidays and a meaty paid expansion but that didn't make villager interactions any more interesting, and so on.

Mario Maker 2 is an interesting case because its problem was twofold: the promised online multiplayer was not at launch and was rough, and updates weren't anywhere as frequent as with the first game (wonder how much of that was resources and how much of that was tied to the multiplayer...), which probably didn't do well to keep retention. Add the need for more resources in dev and COVID swinging in, and I can see why they chose not to keep going with Maker 2, as much as it pains me.
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When you put it that way, sounds like Nintendo is putting out too many GaaS things at once and/or in a short amount of time. Nintendo is pretty stingy with their resources from what I've heard, and perhaps trying to support many GaaSs all at once is stretching their budget.
 
Quillion said:
When you put it that way, sounds like Nintendo is putting out too many GaaS things at once and/or in a short amount of time. Nintendo is pretty stingy with their resources from what I've heard, and perhaps trying to support many GaaSs all at once is stretching their budget.
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Focusing on just EPD stuff, from what I remember, we got...
  • ARMS
  • Splatoon 2
  • Mario Kart Tour -> Booster Course Pass
  • Super Mario Maker 2
  • Animal Crossing: New Horizons
  • Splatoon 3
...which is indeed a lot, especially when HD development is hard and Nintendo has needed to scale up their workforce. You can definitely see why Nintendo utilizes a lot of partnerships. Though like I said, I do feel like COVID in particular messed up Mario Maker and Animal Crossing, even if Mario Maker started off slow.
 
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There's a lot of assumptions about the "planned support" of these games that Nintendo supposedly "cut short" but their GaaS model is really just them releasing (mostly) finished content in semi-regular intervals to make people come back to play these games. Occasionally you get a little more than that but bottom line is that their games aren't meant to be supported in perpetuity. People keep digging through datamined files and convince themselves that every little morsel of code is proof of content that will come to the game one day and that's simply not how it works.
 
Dardan Sandiego said:
There's a lot of assumptions about the "planned support" of these games that Nintendo supposedly "cut short" but their GaaS model is really just them releasing (mostly) finished content in semi-regular intervals to make people come back to play these games. Occasionally you get a little more than that but bottom line is that their games aren't meant to be supported in perpetuity. People keep digging through datamined files and convince themselves that every little morsel of code is proof of content that will come to the game one day and that's simply not how it works.
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I don't know if my view is skewed, but it feels like the "mostly finished" part was mainly true for the Wii U and early Switch GaaS attempts. Not so much in the past two or three years.
 
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Dardan Sandiego said:
There's a lot of assumptions about the "planned support" of these games that Nintendo supposedly "cut short" but their GaaS model is really just them releasing (mostly) finished content in semi-regular intervals to make people come back to play these games. Occasionally you get a little more than that but bottom line is that their games aren't meant to be supported in perpetuity. People keep digging through datamined files and convince themselves that every little morsel of code is proof of content that will come to the game one day and that's simply not how it works.
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It's funny though, if we take insider discussion at face value, then there is exactly one game where we can actually speculate about planned support being altered and cut down - and that's Super Mario Maker 2 and its SMB2 gameplay style, bringing this topic back full circle.
 
VolcanicDynamo said:
It's funny though, if we take insider discussion at face value, then there is exactly one game where we can actually speculate about planned support being altered and cut down - and that's Super Mario Maker 2 and its SMB2 gameplay style, bringing this topic back full circle.
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I don't know how much stock we should put into Imran relaying something he's "heard". He was also one of the people behind the rumour that Nintendo was going to revive Scalebound and we all know how that turned out. Unless more people can confirm it I'm happy to treat it as an unsubstantiated rumour.
 
Dardan Sandiego said:
I don't know how much stock we should put into Imran relaying something he's "heard". He was also one of the people behind the rumour that Nintendo was going to revive Scalebound and we all know how that turned out. Unless more people can confirm it I'm happy to treat it as an unsubstantiated rumour.
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Wasn't he talking about Metroid Dread with that "Nintendo reviving a long-cancelled game" comment? I don't remember him ever specifying anything about Scalebound (unless I missed something) and in fact made specific mention of Dread after it was revealed that he lamented how long it took for that to finally get announced.
 
surprised that this thread isn't talking about yusuke amano being mia

that could very well suggest that a new 2D Mario started pre production after octo expansion
 
DustinWretch said:
Wasn't he talking about Metroid Dread with that "Nintendo reviving a long-cancelled game" comment? I don't remember him ever specifying anything about Scalebound (unless I missed something) and in fact made specific mention of Dread after it was revealed that he lamented how long it took for that to finally get announced.
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Let me clarify: He started the rumour that Nintendo was reviving a game that was "officially cancelled". The game that was being talked about back then in insider circles was Scalebound but it's true that he never specifically stated that's what he meant.

He couldn't have meant Dread because Metroid Dread was never "officially cancelled" and if he meant that he should have been more precise.
 
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Raccoon said:
surprised that this thread isn't talking about yusuke amano being mia

that could very well suggest that a new 2D Mario started pre production after octo expansion
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This is perhaps really shortsighted of me to say, but I would be legitimately surprised if he was directing Mario again. NSMB2 was the game for all the newcomers to Mario dev - I don't think he was set up to shepard a future game in the same way the 3D Mario devs handle it. Could be wrong, though!
 
VolcanicDynamo said:
It's funny though, if we take insider discussion at face value, then there is exactly one game where we can actually speculate about planned support being altered and cut down - and that's Super Mario Maker 2 and its SMB2 gameplay style, bringing this topic back full circle.
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Honestly as a big mm2 player, I glad they went with the smb2 mushroom over a full smb2 style. The kinds of levels you can make now with the smb2 power up is crazy compared to what you'd get with an smb2 style that wouldn't fit mm2's framework.
 
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VolcanicDynamo said:
This is perhaps really shortsighted of me to say, but I would be legitimately surprised if he was directing Mario again. NSMB2 was the game for all the newcomers to Mario dev - I don't think he was set up to shepard a future game in the same way the 3D Mario devs handle it. Could be wrong, though!
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he's definitely proven himself though. if they want a fresh take on 2D Mario, he'd be just the person to tap
 
Quillion said:
Was this really the case? I wouldn't be surprised, but it's a nice gesture to the newcomers if so.
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The Iwata Asks interview goes through it. Tezuka set up the "Mario Cram School" to teach devs how to design Mario games. Then they decided to build a game around the levels they were making before actually focusing on the mechanics, which is typically the opposite of how Mario games are made.

iwataasks.nintendo.com

Iwata Asks - New Super Mario Bros. 2 - Page 1

Read the in-depth interview conducted by former Nintendo Global President Satoru Iwata.
iwataasks.nintendo.com iwataasks.nintendo.com

Amano did actually work on NSMB Wii, but it seems like he was more involved with the overall structure of the game.
 
the only explanations I can get out from my brain are

1) They gave it to Retro Studio back in the days. so it's normal for it not being published, like ever.
2) They gave it to Bandai-Namco Singapore back in the days. so it's normal for it not being published, like ever.
3) They had to reboot the project, ashamed by the goodness of my custom-made levels, done in Super Mario Maker 2.
 
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I've felt for a little while that 2D Mario is a 2023 thing, but looking at the reveal to release window for Bros and Maker on Switch, I wouldn't expect an announcement until next year.
Raccoon said:
he's definitely proven himself though. if they want a fresh take on 2D Mario, he'd be just the person to tap
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Yeah, there's interesting absences from Splatoon 3 which could point to either new guiding hands on classic franchises, or perhaps more entirely new internal IP forthcoming.
 
I wonder if Emily was referring to Zippo's recent 2D Mario comments when she said he might actually have good sources.

If so, I'm glad Ninendo is finally dropping the "New Super" art style and it's coming out during the 2023/2024 fiscal year. Let's GO!
 
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The next one should come with an artstyle akin to this

nintendo-switch-joshin-anniversary-special-pack-5.jpg
 
You know, 2D Mario since after 64 has always functioned as a "secondary series" while the 3D games have always been the "primary series". The 2D games are supposed to be more low-budget supplements that are more newcomer-friendly and a tide-over for hardcore players.

But what if Super Mario 3D (as in SM3DL and SM3DW) was the secondary series instead? I can't imagine that either of those games were as high-budget as Odyssey, plus their simpler mechanics would make them more newcomer-friendly.

The Super 3D feel like the evolution of the NSMB series that some want, so I think it's a logical progression.
 
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I think Super Mario Maker 1/2 basically made any new games redundant, unless they completely re-imagine the style. That's another reason why I think (and really hope) that the next 2D Mario game will not be in the 'New' series
 
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