mariodk18
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I remember the CPUs were weaker than most expected. What would more powerful CPUs have allowed game devs to do?
Sure, that works for me.
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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)
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Mr Swine
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Yeah, I really don’t know why they knee capped the console to 33w. But then again we got Switch which is a lot better at 20w docked (even undocked is better than Wii U)
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Supposedly they were trying to get the Switch concept working before they even designed the Wii U so part of me wonders if they decided to lower its power intentionally as a way to ensure a future Switch-like product wouldn't be underpowered compared to it.
I can only speculate, but it's probably a mixture of factors at play. Console warring is probably part of it, but there also seems to be the smug pessimism that a lot of people adopted as a result of WUST, probably some legitimate concern that any hardware released soon will be difficult to acquire (often combined with a lack of understanding that Nintendo can't just just flip a switch and start building hardware the second the shortages are over), and some outdated, or at least inflexible, thinking about console generations.
Dekuman
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no they would't even give him credit for getting the Sony Japan being downsized news right, basically knit picking other things he got wrong to pretend he got it wrong even though the gist of his reporting was in fact correct. As in, if you were to act on his reporting you'd still be right even if details were wrong or not entirely correct.
Dekuman
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They were a TOY company. They were recently admitted in the Nikkei 225 index and they are not even in the same category as Bandai Namco which you can argue still is a toy company. They are listed as a 'services' along with all the major entertainment company in that listing, I think the narrative of Nintendo as a toy company is a very 1990s take, i believe David Sheff's game over made mention of it but that book came out in 1992. they haven't been that for a long long time.
ShadowFox08
Paratroopa
I really want it next year too. I want them performance boosts.
More objects on screen, more stable and higher framerates for games that are CPU bound. I imagine it would have made a difference from unlocked framerates hovering around 30-40fps to a locked 60fps for many games.
D
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Mainly because I don’t think it’s possible on Dane to have the next generation visual leap on screen like PS5 has with Ratchet, The Valley UE5 tech demo, The Matrix UE5 playable demo etc.
Even if it’s called Switch 2 and even if games are made for it from the ground up, would the games provide a generational leap visually to justify naming it Switch 2?
Switch 2 also likely won’t have an SSD or the custom silicone to super charge them to do things like almost instant full screen asset swaps. Switch 2 also likely won’t support UE5 with it’s paradigm industry changing Nanite or Lumen systems which will constitute most of what ‘next gen’ becomes on PS5 & Series S/X.
My bet is Dane will be called ‘Switch 4K’ or something to keep the Switch momentum going all the way to 2024/5 when Nintendo will come up with something entirely new at least as a third pillar.
I’ve always thought one of the major reasons Nintendo don’t care about specs is in major part to do with them not wanting to get into Rift Apart level visual fidelity and approaching the $50+ million development budgets when they can make games like Animal Crossing with WiiU level assets which generates hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue on a probable budget of sub $20 million development cost.
It also baffles me that some of the people who bang the drum about Nintendo “not caring about visuals” are also clamouring for them to name a system which will more than likely just run WiiU/Switch level assets (at or near 4K using DLSS) as some next generation console without many of the features a next gen console needs in the current market to drive adoption.
I doubt this extremely much.
Instro
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Nintendo isn't going to tie their software development to the OG Switch hardware for a decade. By the time whatever this thing is launches, the Switch will have been on the market for ~6 years. The longest they've carried a modern platform without a successor is the DS which was also replaced after ~6 years. The idea that they are going to launch this thing, and then launch a "real" next gen system a year or two later is not realistic at all.
ShadowFox08
Paratroopa
I disagree. Dane/switch 2 can be anywhere between 2-5x more powerful than switch in on paper specs. 2x is the absolute minimum worst case scenario, but I think 3-4x is realistic to expect. 393 GFLOPs Maxwell vs 1.4 - 2 TFLOPs Dane GPU. This is on paper specs we are talking about, and ampere (or Orion) should be more performant per flop than maxwell. The extra cache and up to 4x Bandwidth is going to help a lot as well with bandwidth bottlenecks. It's not farfetched for Dane/switch 2 to be just as performant or even exceed PS4 at all in performance in docked mode. And that's without DLSS thrown in. With DLSS we can see a console matching or surpassing PS4 pro performance in docked mode.
But PS4 pro was just used to boost resolution or framerate for OG PS4 games and it didn't even have that much of an impact compared to xbone x. Switch 2/Dane can focus more on graphical quality and use DLSS to make up the resolution and or framerate. So we could be seeing something like a 8-10x performance jump in theory.
ps4 base is 3-3.5x more powerful than switch, and pro is around 2x (in GPU) of ps4 base. With Dane we are getting a huge boost in CPU power if they are A78s, and more so if we are getting 6-8 cores. And then up to 4x more bandwidth available + more cache. GPU will be 3-4x in raw power without counting newer architecture and tools as well as DLSS.
A 1080p Zelda game made from the ground up on switch 2/Dane is going to look really good..
switch-->switch 2/Dane is the biggest jump since N64-->GameCube.
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Like how the current Switch is more like a scaled down PS4/XB1 than an upgraded Wii U or PS360, Dane is going to be a lot more like a scaled down PS5/XS than a portable PS4/XB1, even if the raw horsepower will be more in line with the latter. I don't think there's any real reason to be concerned that it won't be able to handle Nanite, though Lumen does seem a bit heavy (though on the other hand, Nvidia's RT hardware is also much better).
Also, while I do understand what you're trying to say, SSD is a very general term. Both the Switch's internal memory and the microSD cards it uses for storage expansion are already SSDs.
Procheno
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The good news for Nintendo is those next gen consoles already have a weak model that holds the standards down in the Xbox Series S version. So the gap to that system makes the difference between the Switch 2 and PS5/XBX less drastic. Definitely won't get as many "it's just too weak to handle X game" when those same games have to already run on a weak (comparatively) Xbox Series S
davec00ke
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The next Switch will be miles behind Xbox Series S, your deluding yourself if you think otherwise.
Procheno
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I'm not saying they'll be the same or close. I'm saying having the S model shrinks the gap a lot between the Switch 2 and "next gen"
SiG
Chain Chomp
How do you know? Do you have access to Nintendo hardware, or is this yet another "Nintendo gonna Nintendo" excuse, which we've already proven to be wrong?
Kenka
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CPUs are in charge of logic. GPU are in charge of rendering scenes. Basically, anything that is not strictly visual can be improved by the help of more CPU power (although sometimes not by much depending on what). A non-exhaustive list includes enemy AI, the number of NPCs displayed at the same time, physics calculations like trajectories, collisions and other interactions. The more powerful the CPU, the grander your game can potentially be.
WiiU's CPU was the result of Nintendo's will to guarantee the compatibility with their Wii library. They took their mono-core Wii CPU, turned it into a three-core variant and shrinked it to reduce consumption.
If you ask me, I presume that Nintendo wanted a Switch all along during development phase and realized pretty late that the technology is not there yet. Then, they pivoted to the B or C plan they had at the time and that was the stationary console with a tablet. This explains the gargantuan R&D costs and comparatively low return on investment. It also means that much of the research that led to the Switch was made during that time. It is a bit ironic I guess that Nintendo's vision was ultimately fulfilled by a third-party (Nvidia).
Yeah I'm convinced of this too. WiiU was the default product they had to resort to when they realized switch concept wasn't possible yet. I guess somehow they knew there were some hard times ahead when they showed the WiiU for the first time.
ReddDreadtheLead
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I believe what Skittzo is referring to is the concept that Nintendo had for a device that is identical to what the switch is, since the early 2000s, as the successor to the GameCube over what the Wii is.
In fact, I’m certain that the switch was just one of the things that they threw in a vault to come back to years later when feasible.
And this was before the PSP even has much of a relevance. Since people keep saying it’s copying the PSP, when Nintendo had the idea before the PSP released lol.
Anyway, it’s from leaked documents of a portable device that is around the power level of “XBox 2”(what they called the 360 before it’s name was revealed) and connects to a TV via HDMI with a dock.
However, it was theorized that the Wii U is a dip into seeing if they could still do that original plan, to which it failed spectacularly since it wasn’t really like the original idea at all. But like a knock-off version, since they wanted Wii BC but also wanted that original idea.
In a way, you can call the Switch the GC2 and not be incorrect really, as the goal of the original successor was to basically be what the switch is in many facets.
Just wanted to remind people that the global supply chain crisis is still ongoing, and Nintendo's plan for the pro/successor (whatever that is) may be fluid and subject to change. Yesterday Kyoto Shimbun (Kyoto's local paper) reported that in November Nintendo was forced to ship by air in the US and by rail in Europe; Furukawa also warned that next year Nintendo may not be able to supply enough hardware units (DeepL translated):
I can't find any info on this yet, but it's possible that the massive flood in Malaysia (48 dead and 22,000 displaced) may be a contributing factor—Foxconn/Hon Hai has been using a Sharp factory in Malaysia to assemble Switch.
Branduil
Bob-omb
Dane Switch will for sure be far behind all the next-gen consoles in terms of CPU. GPU-wise, it can probably be reasonably close to the S with the DLSS boost.
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Nvidia likely already booked the SoC production lines, because if they haven't... well, they'd be pushed to the back of the line and the next hardware would be delayed, which would cost them a LOT of money having to re-book their assembly lines, their other non-SoC part orders, etc. which would also cost them a lot of time and money. There's too many aspects to hardware for them to start and stop things whenever, most of it is planned and booked a year in advance.
Shipping new hardware during the chip shortage is likely the lesser of two evils, both financially and logistically. If anything would change, it would be that Nintendo would have to ramp down Switch production to get more silicon wafers for new hardware production until things settle.
ReddDreadtheLead
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If nVidia hasn’t booked the lines for this specific SoC by now, they aren’t getting a spot until like late 24/early 25.
The year before Atlan releases or year of.
The year before Atlan releases or year of.
Simba1
Bob-omb
Thing is, whey they would need new concept for next gen console? I mean we just got PlayStation 5.
Concept doesnt need to change, they can add something extra like VR/AR support, but core concept (hybrid) will be same in an case.
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Because they're Nintendo. That's what they do.
But I do think they're going the iterative way anyway
Kenka
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Holy shit. Forward-thinking underpowering. It makes sense but in a twisted way.
Simba1
Bob-omb
Point that there is no full graphical leap doesnt mean it cant be next gen console, especially when we talking about company that positing Nintendo Wii (basically clocked GameCube hardware) like next generation console.
DS to 3DS also no full generation graphical leap, or example of current Switch, going from Wii U to Switch is also not full graphical leap. Saying that, "Switch 2" (Dane) should be more powerful/capable compared current Switch to Wii U.
SSD or instant full screen assets doesnt mean it cant be Nintendo next gen console.
UE engines are very scalable, so I don't see reason that Switch 2 does not support UE5.
Point is that Nintendo with Switch and hybrid nature doesn't need something completely new, thats winning concept, they just need just stronger hardware with some new features for next gen.
Why they would do that when can they simple release real new next gen console (Switch 2) in for instance 2023. and than release again Switch 2 Lite, Switch 2 revision..
Nintendo care about specs, they just think they dont need to have very strong specs and they always looking to have more affordable hardware compared to other consoles on market, with difference now that they have mobile hardware with very limited power and heat consumption to work with.
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We like to say that the Wii U was plan B now that it did what it did, but the asymmetrical gameplay on the gamepad took a big R&D effort. That what they achieved was pretty nuts.
Simba1
Bob-omb
I would arguing that Wii U to Wii is one of biggest jumps in console space.
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It doesn't stand up to much scrutiny though.
Companies don't gimp their current products to future proof their future products. Its about maximising the profits of the next FY.
Somehow Nintendo payed more for the Wii U soc than Sony payed for the ps4 apu.
The Wii U was a Frankenstein monster, designed foremost for BC with a dead architecture. Allowing an off the shelf handheld 5 years later to run enchanted versions of the same game was not by design by any stretch.
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ShadowFox08
Paratroopa
Fair enough
With DLSS, it's going to be really close in GPU performance. Perhaps closer than switch vs xbone.
CPU though I'm hoping there is no more than a a 3x power gap, similar to switch vs PS4.
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Switch 2 just needs enough power to run current gen games well enough. It will not get any future PS5/XBSeries native first party games anyway but most of the ones we are getting right now look like the could still run on last gen with some compromises.
I mean if the next Switch can run any PS4 game effortlessly (ignoring install size or having a framerate of 60fps) then this would be already a huge step up and enough for the current gen.
I mean if the next Switch can run any PS4 game effortlessly (ignoring install size or having a framerate of 60fps) then this would be already a huge step up and enough for the current gen.
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Yeah I'm not sure it has much merit but it's at least an interesting possibility to think about.
The phrase in my mind was "future proofing" but I'm not sure that even applies to this idea.
Again we kinda have proof that they were indeed toying with the Switch concept for a while so it is very possible that the Wii U was not their first choice for a new product to launch in 2012. It could be that they were kinda scrambling to get something together after realizing technology wasn't there yet for a hybrid portable, and what they wound up with was a result of simply poor, rushed planning.
Like I said only part of me believes they intentionally set the clocks low to ensure a future Switch wouldn't be outdone, I know it's a very farfetched theory. But the idea that the Wii U was not their ideal choice of concept for that time period should have more merit.
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Should've been possible with 3DS -> New 3DS, I think, but nobody did anything with already released titles.
New 3DS: first released October 2014
Hyrule Warriors Legends: first released January 2016
I mean, Minecraft didn't become old news when Xbox 360 did. Final Fantasy XIV didn't go away with the PS3.
Being bound on the 3ds was a rarity. And the GPU didn't see much of an upgrade. There's not much you can do to make a set of fidelity modes
CES is coming soon. GTC is in march. GDC is at the exact same time, for more game related news. I think we might see leaks in March because of that
Teal'c
Shriekbat
I agree that Switch Dane should not (and in many cases cannot) receive the games that will go on Ps5/XBSX, Nintendo didn't pose the problem with Switch and won't with its successor.
That a hybrid console (about the size of a smartphone) can't reach the performance of much larger devices seems normal to me (technologies released in the same years of course).
In 2022/23 a handheld console, ideally, as powerful as a ps4 with better CPU (and several other improvements) before DLSS already seems like a lot to me.
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In the meantime new "leakers/insiders" (reliable?) are coming forward, strange that they are all doing it these days, coincidences?
That a hybrid console (about the size of a smartphone) can't reach the performance of much larger devices seems normal to me (technologies released in the same years of course).
In 2022/23 a handheld console, ideally, as powerful as a ps4 with better CPU (and several other improvements) before DLSS already seems like a lot to me.
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In the meantime new "leakers/insiders" (reliable?) are coming forward, strange that they are all doing it these days, coincidences?
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Markomaro is the polar opposite of reliable. They throw all sorts of stuff at the wall and delete the things that aren't true.
Serif
𝕽𝖊𝖓𝖊𝖌𝖆𝖉𝖊 𝕬𝖓𝖌𝖊𝖑
I messed up the dates there.
I think Monster Hunter 4G released in Japan on the same day as the new 3DS Japanese release, releasing as a regular Nintendo 3DS SKU with new 3DS improvements, so I think that could be how BotW2 turns out.
And of course the new 3DS automatically improved performance / loading times in older games so I'm assuming that's how it'll turn out for Switch games with dynamic framerate/res and no explicit patch. But it would totally be a bummer if Xenoblade DE was just capped at 720p docked with no other patches down the line.
Teal'c
Shriekbat
I understand. I thought there was new information on the horizon but that's not the case either
None of those things were exactly out of nowhere though. Pretty safe bets.I understand. I thought there was new information on the horizon but that's not the case either
Dekuman
Starman
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This popped up on reddit. The machien translation is pretty atrocious, but indicates they air shipped units for black friday, and suggests they may be supply constrained in 2022 as well.
www.kyoto-np.co.jp
任天堂「スイッチ」、年初以降に供給停滞も 半導体不足や物流混乱｜社会｜地域のニュース｜京都新聞
任天堂の古川俊太郎社長は２７日、主力ゲーム機「ニンテンドースイッチ」の供給が２０２２年の年初以降に停滞する可能性があることを明らかにした。…
www.kyoto-np.co.jp
OP
OP
That's why I very highly doubt that Dane's using a 5 nm** process node, considering that Nvidia's probably going to prioritise Hopper and Lovelace GPUs for the 5 nm** process node capacity Nvidia has secured since Hopper and Lovelace GPUs are high margin products for Nvidia.
I think the absolute best case scenario when process nodes are concerned is TSMC's N6 process node or Samsung's 7LPP process node for Dane.
But I think Samsung's 8N process node is the process node mostly likely used for Dane.
OP
OP
I suppose there's a possibility Nintendo and Nvidia decide to use the remaining capacity for TSMC's N7 process node for Dane.what if they use up their TSMC 7nm capacity for Dane
I believe Nvidia's still using TSMC's N7 process node for datacentre chips.
Ever since the OLED Model was announced, I've been on team 2022. But due to the unprecedented situation, I also try to keep an open mind. Yes, the SoC production is probably booked, but that doesn't necessarily guarantee a product release. Just recently the Financial Times reported that businesses are shifting from "just in time" (read: minimum) inventory to "just in case" inventory:
"One big German industrial group caught flat-footed by the semiconductor shortage has shifted from three-month non-binding arrangements with suppliers to 24-month commitments that require it to pay in advance of receiving its chips. [...] A follow-up McKinsey survey this year found that 61 per cent of companies had increased inventory of critical products and 55 per cent had taken action to ensure they had at least two sources of raw materials."
That said, warehousing loads of SoCs would certainly be costly though:
"The cost of storing goods is also set to rise more quickly as warehouse labor costs are increasing and facility owners seek price increases to replace expiring leases that had allowed companies to sidestep sharply rising rents during 2021. Prices to lease industrial properties have jumped 25% on average nationwide over rates tenants paid at the end of five-year leases that expired in the third quarter, real-estate firm CBRE Group Inc. said in early December."
So it seems to me that a delayed release is a possibility albeit an unlikely one, but things have not been particularly normal as we're being reminded daily. Nintendo might have been preparing for the rising logistics costs when they raised the OLED Model price by $50 and yet claimed the profit margin being unchanged.
ReddDreadtheLead
#TeamLate2025WithAPotentialForEarly2026
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(Translated by my phone):This popped up on reddit. The machien translation is pretty atrocious, but indicates they air shipped units for black friday, and suggests they may be supply constrained in 2022 as well.
任天堂「スイッチ」、年初以降に供給停滞も 半導体不足や物流混乱｜社会｜地域のニュース｜京都新聞
任天堂の古川俊太郎社長は２７日、主力ゲーム機「ニンテンドースイッチ」の供給が２０２２年の年初以降に停滞する可能性があることを明らかにした。…
“Nintendo "Switch", supply stagnation after the beginning of the year, semiconductor shortage and logistics confusion”
This is translated by Apple, so if it is very confusing blame them
I had to make some edits though because I think it means 2022 (not 2010) and 2019 (not 2019). Other translation (via DeepL) had Switch called the DS.
Are we having a proper translation shortage as well? lol
Personally, I’ve been on Team 23, but early 23. It would coincide with a year gap between the OLED and this model. Devs have supposedly had a dev kit of some kind since late 2020, which is similar to how devs had a PS4 Pro for the PS5 devkit for a while before getting actual hardware dev kits. And PS5 used the PS4 SDK but evolved for the PS5 rather than the MS approach which was a GDK and resulted in issues early on and devs needed to get grips with it. On top of being later than expected I think?
Here’s the rumored time of a devkit in 2018:
But specs for this weren’t possible at the time really, as they were using PS4 Pro silicon as per Richard from DF in one of the weeks iirc. Mentioned that the PS5 early devkit was using PS4 Pro.
I wonder if nVidia will utilize some sort of dense packaging to make the overall chip smaller. Or they’ll have a large chip perhaps and a dense board. Though, ORIN fits in a card form factor so it isn’t out of question, just that I’m unsure of it.
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