Discussion You really don't think we can have better?

[kvetcha]

Strange title, but this is a thread I've been mulling posting for a while.

I remeber watching the 2004 Around the World in 80 Days movie years ago, I don't remeber much about the movie or even if it was very good, but I remember a scene in the movie where Steve Coogan (the main character) is mocked by the dude running the academy of science that everything that can be discovered has been discovered, and that there was no more ground to break, no more discoveries to make and that things were as good now as they can ever get. Coogan makes a bet with him that he can prove him wrong and eventually does, traveling the world faster than had been done before. Proving that yeah, there's always room to improve, and that society shouldn't be stuck in stasis.

Where I'm going with this is that there is this sentiment that we shouldn't get new Mario Kart or Smash games and that they should just port and add on the 8 Deluxe and Ultimate forever and to me that's just sad. The vibe I get from this is that all people seem to care about is some crazy high number of characters/stages and that nothing else matters, which to be blunt is pathetic.

8DX and Ultimate are built on the bones of their Wii U predecessors and you can really feel it (more for kart than Smash, but Smashs origins are very clear). these games have been iterated on now for almost a decade.

I feel off the smash train hard between the two seasons passes. I did play a bit when Pyra and Mythra came but even that didn't hold my interest for long.

I was inititally super excited for the booster course pack but I'm not playing MK8 as much as I though I would. I'll boot it up a bit when we get those new tracks (and for some multiplayer with friends) but my excitement for this has faded considerably.

Mario Kart and Smash are well made games that people love but I absolutely believe that we could get new and exciting games made that would be better/more fun mechanically than the current games.

EPD is one of Japans best studios, I truely believe they could make a Mario Kart 9 (new and from the ground up) that would blow our minds. I would love this so much.

Smash could easily be done (and should be) by someone who isn't sakurai. I like the dude and respect his work immensely, but at some point new blood has to take over. Otherwise it will turn into a Studio Ghibli situation (Ghibli never trained a next generation to takeover from Takata and Miyazaki, and soon the studio will rot away once Miyazaki is gone.)

The next Nintendo console will in all likehoold have bc, so it's not even like 8dx or Ultimate are going anywhere. Let's stop pretending like they can't make a better Smash and Mario Kart.

great post! I do feel obligated to mention that Ghibli did train the next generation of talent: Yoshifumi Kondo, one of Miyazaki’s apprentices, was groomed to be Miyazaki’s successor. He directed one film, the wonderful Whisper of the Heart, before passing away unexpectedly in 1998. His diagnosis of aortic dissection was blamed on overwork, and his death affected Miyazaki so deeply that it drove him to reconsider his own work ethic.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

They're not going to stop making new Mario Kart and Smash games. It's just going to be longer in between releases, just like any other franchise these days.

 

[Mekanos]

Imagine if the next game added 20 more characters, and also added tripping. Would that game be more popular? Is Melee still not the most beloved Smash title with a fraction of the characters and content of Ultimate?

Define "beloved" here

Beloved by whom? What metrics are we counting here?

 

[MissingNo.]

If Smash's roster is all that matters to people, Nintendo should just make a live service game with yearly season passes ad infinitum.

 

[Chie]

So like... do you not care which characters are there? Is anything fine so long as they're owned by Nintendo? I'm struggling to understand what you actually want besides a game that reaches some arbitrary threshold of novelty.

I never said that. I do think the roster should be primarily Nintendo characters. There are some core characters that should stick around (Mario, Link, Dk, Kirby, Pikachu, etc). I think they should try to rep various series but I'm less fussed over which ones specifically get in. I like a lot of Nintendo series so any roster they come up with have characters I would want to play.

The lead up for 4 was much more exciting than the one for Ultimate since 4 had a lot more newcomers for me at the least. I would definitely want more new characters for the next game.

 

[Jersh]

Is Melee still not the most beloved Smash title with a fraction of the characters and content of Ultimate?

I'm only answering this specific question, but no. Ultimate is the most beloved Smash game by a decent margin.

With the general audience, the only time the most beloved Smash game wasn't the current one may have been 3DS/Wii U, but even then I'm not sure. Brawl was huge.

But even in the competitive scene, Ultimate is on top.

 

[MarcelRguez]

Disagree massively. People in other fighting games complain about characters not returning but it doesn't hurt the game.

No Baiken, no buyken

It's true that Smash is a very specific thing with a fanbase very adverse to cuts, to the point where it's hard to compare it with other fighting game series. When talking about other series, it's rare that a fighter similar in popularity to Melee's Mewtwo or Brawl's Wolf not coming back causes such a ruckus. Although if the argument is just that people complaining online doesn't affect the sales of the new entry, I get it.

There's three cases of FG sequels I can think of in which roster changes did severely affect the reception of the game, though: SFIII, SCV, and MvCI. It's not exactly true that the fanbases just rolls with roster reboots every time, and the game being appealing in spite of that is way more important, I feel (Tekken 3, Mortal Kombat reboot).

The main issue, I think, is that Smash is so lean in terms of mechanics that people have trouble picturing how a reboot would play like in the first place without turning it into something completely different other than as a Power Stone-like, which sound like the obvious and boring choice to me. One possible answer would be to just fill the game to the brim with capital C Content, especially single-player and co-op, but Smash is already so ahead of the curve compared to many other genre entries that the devs would have to work double-time to make enough stuff to compensate for the roster cuts. I could see something similar to what SFVI is doing with its World Tour mode being appealing enough, leaning into the crossover aspect harder that even Brawl's SSE did. Visit different Nintendo worlds as actual spaces to explore, move around, and have fights in, that kind of stuff.

I've got nothing on Mario Kart, sorry

 

[Chie]

Define "beloved" here

Beloved by whom? What metrics are we counting here?

More people played brawl than Melee, for a lot more people brawl was their smash and if you tell them the competitive scenes hates it they'll just shrug and not care.

 

[AngryAlchemist]

I just don't understand the obsession that some fans have with throwing their hands up in the air, giving up and not asking for anything better because that would require too much creative thinking or effort on the part of the developers, when that's literally their job.

Normally I feel like saying that would conjure up some really sketch arguments so I'm glad this post was positively received. There's really not any reason we can't get an even better Mario Kart or Smash game on the horizon.

 

[Johna X]

Also, as someone who voted for K. Rool in the Smash Ballot and put in tons and tons of hours into him in Ultimate... I know I would be really bummed if he got cut from the next game because of an arbitrary reboot. This is why Sakurai has always tried to cut as few fighters as possible between games.

I don't think Smash 6 needs to just be Ultimate+. It can have its own identity, mechanics, and ideas. But there's nothing wrong with reusing assets either.

I think K.Rool, and every EDP character would return. The cuts are somewhat dev time, but also very much liscensing. I could see Lucas or an FE char being cut who are not in house (granted K.Rool's origins are not in house and I'm kind of riding on the assumption MonkEPD is true) but I feel EPD is mostly safe

 

[Johna X]

I think smash may be rethought in terms of single player and overall content, and perhaps a smaller roster would lead to some retuning, but the idea that any market is really asking for them to make Mario heavily based around Cappy or something is silly, and I feel people comparing the N64 movesets to the modern ones need to remember smash needs to have an accesibility floor. Now this doesn't mean Mario cannot be adjusted, but making everyone like the modern characters, particularly in terms of DLC having some sort of meter or additional wrinkle, is a bad idea for the game's appeal. If anything I feel some of the DLC overdid it, but I'm also a BK and Piranha main, easily the 2 worst DLC tier-wise and probably the simplest to program, so there may be some bias

(I would not mind some implementation of Banjo involving multiple egg types and somehow cycling them, but I also do not think there should be resources tied to everything like some have suggested, like eggs are buffed but use amount and do damage to refill, up special is flying and super good but uses feathers, just seems cumbersome)

 

[CyberWolfBia]

Honestly, people would be more forgiving of a smaller roster if enough gameplay changes are introduced.

My dream for a Smash reboot is Smash Bros x Power Stone. Power Stone is played isometrically and could be pretty interesting if next Smash Bros game tries that.

Now you're just suggesting a drastic shift on gameplay; It's like if Tekken 8 was an arena fighter all of sudden;

Smash, as it is, can evolve and grow; roster-wise, yeah, you can absolutely have a more modest size, if you still fufill certain quota of fanservice; Say if we lost a couple of 3rd Party guests, but got few new ones that people asked for years, or have certain obscure Nintendo franchises have a shot instead of just going with promotional tie-ins of recent titles, etc;

 

[Johna X]

The gameplay will not shift too much, as much as it is about the crossover and smash itself, the rise of other platform fighters is not a coincidence. Perhaps elements of it can be questioned, like making the game more or less defensive as a whole, but I don't think it'd be a good idea to make it closer to a traditional fighting game

 

[Catsylvania]

I’d be more shocked if a Super Smash Bros. sequel didn’t bring back the entire roster. I vaguely remember (maybe) Sakurai stating it would be difficult to bring every character back. I thought that was referring to Spirts mode which, sure, that’s fair. I was so overwhelmed trying to get all the Spirits that I just gave up.

There are so many possibilities for Super Smash Bros. I’d love a souped up version of Smash Run. That mode never felt fully realized and it was stuck on 3DS.

There’s ton of room to expand Mario Kart. Adding Zelda, F-Zero, and Animal Cross themed stages really opens up the possibilities. I’ve been mediocre at post-64 Mario Kart yet I buy every entry day one.

 

[Johna X]

I’d be more shocked if a Super Smash Bros. sequel didn’t bring back the entire roster. I vaguely remember (maybe) Sakurai stating it would be difficult to bring every character back. I thought that was referring to Spirts mode which, sure, that’s fair. I was so overwhelmed trying to get all the Spirits that I just gave up.

There are so many possibilities for Super Smash Bros. I’d love a souped up version of Smash Run. That mode never felt fully realized and it was stuck on 3DS.

There’s ton of room to expand Mario Kart. Adding Zelda, F-Zero, and Animal Cross themed stages really opens up the possibilities. I’ve been mediocre at post-64 Mario Kart yet I buy every entry day one.

He was most certainly refering to the roster, he's emphasized many times Everyone is Here is unlikely again.

I, perhaps naively, truly belief he moreso means liscensing rather then engine time. I expect most first party characters to remain, and DLC to be a lot of older third party characters.

 

[RochHoch]

I think smash may be rethought in terms of single player and overall content, and perhaps a smaller roster would lead to some retuning, but the idea that any market is really asking for them to make Mario heavily based around Cappy or something is silly, and I feel people comparing the N64 movesets to the modern ones need to remember smash needs to have an accesibility floor. Now this doesn't mean Mario cannot be adjusted, but making everyone like the modern characters, particularly in terms of DLC having some sort of meter or additional wrinkle, is a bad idea for the game's appeal. If anything I feel some of the DLC overdid it, but I'm also a BK and Piranha main, easily the 2 worst DLC tier-wise and probably the simplest to program, so there may be some bias

(I would not mind some implementation of Banjo involving multiple egg types and somehow cycling them, but I also do not think there should be resources tied to everything like some have suggested, like eggs are buffed but use amount and do damage to refill, up special is flying and super good but uses feathers, just seems cumbersome)

I definitely think that some of the N64 characters need to be reworked, but it doesn't need to be anything drastic. I also agree that they went too far with Ultimate's DLC characters, Steve and Kazuya are currently completely killing my interest in competitive Smash because they're both laughably overpowered, clearly as a result of the devs just having no clue how to balance them because of how unconventional they are

Like, DK should swing on vines instead of spinning like a helicopter and maybe have his coconut gun or something from an upcoming game. Kirby's moveset is awful in general and would benefit from being redone, but he doesn't need anything like the DLC characters, just different, simple normals and specials borrowing from other copy abilities.

Mario's probably fine the way he is, but I'm iffy about Fludd. Samus could use her counter from SR/Dread and maybe a few small tweaks, but nothing major.

But of course, none of these changes warrant throwing out 40+ characters in the name of doing something different. If they wanted to, the next game could even have a toggle that lets you pick between a character's OG moveset and their revised version.

 

[Marce-chan]

I think I partly agree with OP.
The thing I don't really agree is putting Smash Ultimate on the same boat as MK8DX since assets reusing is something that every game does. Tears of the Kingdom, GoW Ragnarok and Horizon Forbidden West I suppose, etc. I think single player games get away with it easier due to new stories.
Also, a lot of the characters got new models, not only that, many got redesigns. All stages were reworked too.

But, with both games, the thing I can see happening is them not being early life Switch 2 titles. And as the top 1 and 3 selling games on the system, and with Drake probably being BC and hopefully games getting patched to support 4K, I hope/expect that after the patch they'll have more content. Not another full fighters pass or another 48 courses, of course, but just some appetizers thrown around 2024 and early 2025.

Mario Kart Next I can see being the holiday 2025 game, but I don't think Smash can come that soon. For it to be, we'd have to assume it started development right after DLC for ultimate wrapped up and that's unrealistic to say the least. A game that's more in the table than "Ultimate with some cuts, some new characters and stages and different story mode and all assets reused" wouldn't be done that fast. Ultimate could be made in 3 years because Sakurai makes miracles(as in overwork) and it had the single biggest development team ever at Nintendo + reused several assets and scenarios and movesets from Wii U.

I think that whenever Drake comes, we get patches for 4K support from key titles ( TotK, MK8DX and MP4 being highlighted/getting more than just res bumps), a new "half BCP" is announced for MK8DX(new courses til the end of 2024 or spring 2025), a new fighters pass is announced for Ultimate. Mario Kart Next releases holiday 2025. A new Smash, probably 2026 imo.

We don't know the team size of MKT dev team. The only info comes from patents and I think we have say the same for Booster Course Pass.

I don't think we have any reason to assume MKT took away less resources/staff than MK8(which was miraculously done in only less than 2 and a half years).
It's not like it's a Super Mario Run or Fire Emblem Heroes case of the mobile game clearly being way lower budget and requiring way less staff than a main entry. Tour is a main entry. It in fact has more content than any Mario Kart game ever. And it doesn't reuse assets, the remastered tracks are all made from the ground up.
BCP being just the Tour tracks remastered(as in reworked in some areas, with new lighting and higher res/poly), kinda shows how it's pretty much a console game effort.
It had continuous development which is why I don't really think a next Mario Kart started full development in 2019. Almost certainly started pre-production by then tho. Pandemic slowed things down too, and I wouldn't be surprised if during that time, games meant from the start to come in 2024+ weren't the priority of were Nintendo would put EPD staff.
The continued development of the game slowed down really, so probably the team of post launch support was smaller, and so was that of BCP(which would just need to remaster the tracks in MK8 engine), so during that time(and of course by last year/now) full development must've started and progressing well.
I believe the next Mario Kart will heavily rely on graphics and add new mechanics, and also have the biggest package from the start(I mean before DLC) and maybe feature some adventure/story mode.
Don't expect it before holiday 2025. If only because that might end up being the first full next gen game/game meant for next gen from inception by Ninty, not much different than how MK8 was mind blowing in 2014. THAT was what I'd call HD development mastering. The game is stunning to this day.

 

[edamame]

Assuming Nintendo's next console is backwards compatible with Switch and Tears of the Kingdom marks the advent of (at least selective) Nintendo game price increases, it's going to be one hell of an uphill climb to convince casual people to pay $70 for a new Smash Bros. game with most of the current roster missing when you could just play Ultimate.

 

[shoptroll]

Totally agree, and I think there's room in the industry for both new things and continuing to expand on older things. I love that Mario Kart 8 and Smash 4 both received Switch ports that were then massively expanded. I love that producers like Asano continue to make games in a retro style. I also love 2D Mario and indies that a throwbacks to 8 and 16-bit aesthetics.

But at the same time, I love that things like Minecraft exist. That Wii Sports happened. Nintendogs. Tamodachi Collection and Life. Miitomo even.

The medium is at the healthest its ever been in terms of diversity of genres. We've seen so many genres get revitalized in the last decade (largely due to indies) and people keep doing interesting things with them. But we're also seeing new experience take root. And it's just awesome.

And to go back to Chie's point I do think that if all you want is just "the same but MOAR" that's an untenable approach to product design. Because ultimately unless you're iterating on the mechanical core of a game, adding more stages, characters, etc. isn't going to keep players attention and they'll just get fatigued. You have to keep the experience fresh and interesting. Striking that balance between #content and doing something new and novel with a franchise is a hard act to pull off properly, but when it's done right it's magical.

 

[Tangerine_Cookie]

We absolutely can have better, mind you. I don't think anyone is going to seriously argue against that.

I think the argument is if "making better" makes sense. If Switch 2 keeps compatibility with Switch games, any new entry into the Mario Kart/Smash series is directly competing with the previous games. Not only in sales, but in mindshare, and also in risking tanking games that have already became massive evergreens that could basically keep selling for a long time.

This is not impossible, mind you. But it would take significant development effort, that might just be better spent... making different games and letting those entries go on for a bit longer.

 

[CyberWolfBia]

We absolutely can have better, mind you. I don't think anyone is going to seriously argue against that.

I think the argument is if "making better" makes sense. If Switch 2 keeps compatibility with Switch games, any new entry into the Mario Kart/Smash series is directly competing with the previous games. Not only in sales, but in mindshare, and also in risking tanking games that have already became massive evergreens that could basically keep selling for a long time.

This is not impossible, mind you. But it would take significant development effort, that might just be better spent... making different games and letting those entries go on for a bit longer.

I don't know... being able to play Melee and Double Dash!! on the Wii didn't stop people of buying Brawl and MKWii.. (much on the contrary, they were both the best selling titles for each franchise for a while)

Mind you, lots of people still praise the GameCube entries over the Wii iterations too; So for some, the new games were absolutely a downgrade of sorts; Brawl had cuts from Melee and still compasated with a bunch of stuff to balance things out.

 

[meatbag]

Great opening post, @Chie.

I think it's incredibly silly to believe that Nintendo won't make a new Kart and a new Smash. Those franchises are too lucrative to pass up.

I don't think Mario Kart 9 even has to do anything special. Just improve the presentation, have entirely new tracks, maybe keep Battle Mode in. It'll sell on those alone! We haven't even considered new items, a possible career mode, or heck just new modes in general. And that's only what my feeble non-Nintendo mind can think up.

Same thing with Smash. The next entry doesn't have to be "more fighters". They absolutely can cut the roster down and focus on other aspects of the game. They could rework the movesets of some characters, revamp the stages, get silly with the extra modes. There's a lot of stuff they can do to help the next Smash differentiate itself from Ultimate.

that's an untenable approach to product design

Absolutely agreed.

But it would take significant development effort, that might just be better spent... making different games and letting those entries go on for a bit longer

As impressive as the evergreens sell, I think it would still be very much worth Nintendo's time and effort to create new entries for their massively popular IP. It's a chance to sell to the same audience again, and a chance to do something new to reel in newcomers.

We'll have to see how it goes.

 

[Pennington]

How about Smash with 3-dimensional movement and a camera view behind your player?

 

[EnergyDrink]

Imagine if the next game added 20 more characters, and also added tripping. Would that game be more popular? Is Melee still not the most beloved Smash title with a fraction of the characters and content of Ultimate?

How do you measure "beloved"? There is a small group of people that is really fixated on Melee for diverse reasons. But Ultimate is by far the most successful and talked about Smash.

 

[Johna X]

I don't think anyone thinks MK9 (10? Tour may count to them) isn't coming, smash i've seen more of but still def disagree

It's just gonna be hard to find a way to stand out, especially, as edamme says, if they are $70 (smash likely would be since it, BOTW, and TOTK are the same price in many regions). Mario Kart I think there's some potential like introducing an equivalent to the gravity, in addition to adding double dash mechanics again, but even that may not be enough. Smash is harder cause I don't think anyone wants like "woah now everyone has a billion custom moves" or some other theming

 

[Lucifer]

Mario Kart needs a refresh, currently it's this weird hybrid of SaaS and an old game. Obviously SaaS would work great for MK so they should refresh it and make better DLC content than just Tour stages.

Smash isn't it that weird spot because it got a new fresh look and a lot of new content on the Switcb, what Smash really need is proper online. Fighting games are iterative by nature, so I don't really see a point in rebooting Smash and starting from the ground up.

 

[Johna X]

How about Smash with 3-dimensional movement and a camera view behind your player?

Part of smash's appeal, which is the same reason I emphasize the need for characters like Mario (who again, can be changed but must stay fairly surface level in scope), is simplicity. Well it definietely has many mechanics, it is considered much easier for anyone to pick up then something like Street Fighter, and I feel even if it kept the general mechanics, a 3d view would sacrifice this

Smash isn't it that weird spot because it got a new fresh look and a lot of new content on the Switcb, what Smash really need is proper online. Fighting games are iterative by nature, so I don't really see a point in rebooting Smash and starting from the ground up.

Because partly due to content scope, and partly due to legal issues (not to say no third parties back, but some will be very hard, notably for the base game. DLC makes liscensing easier), everyone is here is not happening. Granted, I doubt a reboot too, but it will be less

 

[Lucifer]

Something I would like for Smash is spin offs, something like the Subspace Emmissary or Kirby games but with the characters of Smash.

Part of smash's appeal, which is the same reason I emphasize the need for characters like Mario (who again, can be changed but must stay fairly surface level in scope), is simplicity. Well it definietely has many mechanics, it is considered much easier for anyone to pick up then something like Street Fighter, and I feel even if it kept the general mechanics, a 3d view would sacrifice this


Because partly due to content scope, and partly due to legal issues (not to say no third parties back, but some will be very hard, notably for the base game. DLC makes liscensing easier), everyone is here is not happening. Granted, I doubt a reboot too, but it will be less

I hope they cut the fat especially, like the Fire Emblem characters. As for third parties, I think some will definitely want to return, for marketing purposes and such. You only benefit as a company unless the game is really bad.

 

[Hailinel]

I hope they cut the fat especially, like the Fire Emblem characters. As for third parties, I think some will definitely want to return, for marketing purposes and such. You only benefit as a company unless the game is really bad.

Some things will change in the next Smash, because things always change in new games.

Some things don't, like the eternal salt Smash fans have for Fire Emblem.

Coming in the next Smash: Alear and Sigurd.

 

[Twilight]

Been ready for a proper new Mario Kart since the Switch announcement. We definitely could get better or different, I'm sure the Mario Kart devs will find a new cool mechanic or gimmick to add to a new game, new courses, etc. There are ways to circunvent the fact that it will launch with less courses than 8 Deluxe, I think going back to exploring the mission mode of DS by making it a more robust single player campaign is an easy win for compelling content to replace the quantity of courses. Take inspiration from games like Air Ride for the battle mode, more modes and minigames in terms of mayhem. I love MK8, arguably my favorite in the series tied with Double Dash, but I don't think that is as good as it can get.

Smash Bros. I always felt that the iterative aspect, and the idea of just adding stuff on top of stuff has hurt the potential of some of its areas, and some aspects that could be iterative get dropped or reworked where it doesn't really need to, and maybe a fresh person at the helm could help, also maybe proper development time, the time they get to make a game of this scope feels far too short. I don't think is even really necessary to hard reboot its gameplay (even if I wouldn't entirely mind the idea as long as it looks good), but I do think it should look back at the drawing board for a lot of its characters and elements, the iterative aspect hurts it here where characters that should have had better or more representative movesets by now just don't get them, Mario, Luigi, Ganondorf, the Star Fox characters, Samus, the Links, third parties like Sonic, etc. have needed a rework for a while now, and I don't see them undergoing any drastic changes without starting from scratch on some level. Thinking they could rework the Fire Emblem representation as classes with skins of various characters across the series properly represent more than just sword users and main protagonists, etc. Modes are probably the least iterative stuff they have and they usually drop modes that work really well, Melee still has the best event matches, Brawl the best adventure mode, 4 had cool stuff like Master Orders and Smash Run, Ultimate finally nailed a great classic mode but I can imagine them throwing it yet again in the garbage can, if they do keep the Classic mode for once in a new entry, they could expand on the boss fights, always thought it was a missed opportunity to not retool what they had with the models of Metal Face, the Black Knight and Dr. Wily as proper fights for Xenoblade, Fire Emblem and Megaman routes. I can also imagine that with someone new at the helm, something like Subspace could be done again, and I think a big cinematic story mode where you see not just Nintendo characters but a good number of third parties as well interacting with each other and the like is as good of a selling point for a new entry as anything else. Those are just some ideas at the top of my head, I would definitely trade some of the roster to get proper break the targets and/or board the platforms back, I think stuff like that is more meaningful content to me than the stuff they focus on at times.

I think they could also appeal far better on the nostalgia side with better music selection, some third parties had it way better than Donkey Kong, Metroid, Pikmin, Star Fox, Yoshi, to name a few, a pseudo fresh start to the selection by taking away 10 Jungle Japes and adding in some stuff from their more modern titles or remix some of the less celebrated tracks would elevate that part for me as well. (Just felt like adding this, I don't think it would really matter to many in the grand scheme of things for a new Smash Bros. but hey, it would make me happy).

Also maybe with someone else directing Smash Bros. Magolor could finally join the fight.

Or they could just make Nintendo vs. Capcom instead.

 

[Hailinel]

More people played brawl than Melee, for a lot more people brawl was their smash and if you tell them the competitive scenes hates it they'll just shrug and not care.

Melee enthusiasts are a drop in a bucket next to the fans that enjoy Ultimate.

 

[Johna X]

Something I would like for Smash is spin offs, something like the Subspace Emmissary or Kirby games but with the characters of Smash.




I hope they cut the fat especially, like the Fire Emblem characters. As for third parties, I think some will definitely want to return, for marketing purposes and such. You only benefit as a company unless the game is really bad.

I definetely think some will be back, everyone in smash 4's base game at least (company wise, not just character wise, like Ryu is back too), but some will want to be DLC to cut profits more generously

Also FE is just something they always wanna advertise to an extent, same with Pokemon and same with Xenoblade if its current format of new protags remains. Many series rarely have major new characters, so the ones that cycle like RPGs are often tapped into. I don't know if we'll specifically get all 3 of those or if FE will get something, but one of those 3 series will get a rep from the newest game at the time of dev's start

 

[Johna X]

Melee enthusiasts are a drop in a bucket next to the fans that enjoy Ultimate.

Someone in another thread said Melee is the "most beloved" smash game, like I can get pretty trapped in enthusiast bubbles sometimes I get it but I think that's just objectively untrue

 

[Beanstar40]

I think as fans we should always want nintendo to 1 up their previous efforts. Its always possible for them to do so

 

[Johna X]

I think as fans we should always want nintendo to 1 up their previous efforts. Its always possible for them to do so

In terms of single player series, or elements of these series that are more quality based, absolutely. The problem is we're talking about things that are very judged by content amount, even if they manage to do "Everyone Is Still Here" what about smash 7? Smash 8? No fighting game of smash's balance (Mugen excluding statement is point of that) has more then 100 characters as far as I'm aware. At some point the bubble has to burst, or the series has to be literally just enhanced ports every time, which will at some point even with graphical upgrades feel too dated I imagine. Not to mention even ignoring that, balance is an issue. If you have 10 characters, you have to balance each one against 9. If you have 100... I know some will point to Steve and Kazuya and claim "they don't balance anyway!" but I assume if they literally didn't it'd be far worse.

Again, I do not believe Smash is going to hard reboot. 60 at launch next time is my guess atm. But it won't be able to keep 1-uping itself purely in content, or at least purely in roster.

 

[robertman2]

god, the take about reusing assets is really bad

you do realize they reuse assets for efficiency and not laziness? reusing assets is a necessity of modern game dev

 

[Yamanoi]

Honestly, people would be more forgiving of a smaller roster if enough gameplay changes are introduced.

My dream for a Smash reboot is Smash Bros x Power Stone. Power Stone is played isometrically and could be pretty interesting if next Smash Bros game tries that.

Also @Chie - Amazing thread. Please post more like this going forward whenever you have thoughts on games or anything. Very good stuff.

 

[Thunder84]

Not gonna comment on the widespread potential of reboots/new entries, that’s a whole different can of worms.

Strictly from my personal perspective though, I pretty much entirely disagree. I don’t think there’s any meaningful changes Nintendo can realistically make to MK8 or Smash Ultimate that would improve my own personal experience with them. Best case scenario they match the quality, but then I need to divide my attention between two different games instead of collating everything into a single experience.

I don’t want or need mechanical changes. These games have pretty much perfected the formula in my eyes. I just want them to add more content and continue polishing them to be the absolute best they can be.

 

[Pokemaniac]

Mario Kart and Smash are in completely different situations right now. For Mario Kart, 8 will have been thoroughly exhausted by the time Booster Course Pass is done. It's time to move on.

For Smash, though, Sakurai has gone into semi-retirement, and it's not really clear how things play out from here. If Smash was going to lay low for a while, now would be the time. If they just did another round of DLC along with some minor touchups for Switch 2, that would probably be fine while they figure out the future of the series.

 

[daiquiri]

It's 2024

Nintendo have just announced Nintendo Kart Ultimate: Everyone's Here! and Super Mario Bros. Battle

(Only available for the Nintendo Swap family of systems)

What's your reaction

 

[Yazmat]

Can they do sequels with new exciting mechanics? Yes. Will they be packed with the same amount of content like their predecessors? I don't think so. I understand the desire for the fresh ideas, but I think that the main selling point of MK8D and SSBU was the overall value of the purchase. For me, Ultimate was not about mechanics (to be frank, I suck at the competitive games), it was about the opportunity to play my favorite characters from other franchises.

 

[LukasManak22]

I don't think we have any reason to assume MKT took away less resources/staff than MK8(which was miraculously done in only less than 2 and a half years).
It's not like it's a Super Mario Run or Fire Emblem Heroes case of the mobile game clearly being way lower budget and requiring way less staff than a main entry. Tour is a main entry. It in fact has more content than any Mario Kart game ever. And it doesn't reuse assets, the remastered tracks are all made from the ground up.
BCP being just the Tour tracks remastered(as in reworked in some areas, with new lighting and higher res/poly), kinda shows how it's pretty much a console game effort.
It had continuous development which is why I don't really think a next Mario Kart started full development in 2019. Almost certainly started pre-production by then tho. Pandemic slowed things down too, and I wouldn't be surprised if during that time, games meant from the start to come in 2024+ weren't the priority of were Nintendo would put EPD staff.
The continued development of the game slowed down really, so probably the team of post launch support was smaller, and so was that of BCP(which would just need to remaster the tracks in MK8 engine), so during that time(and of course by last year/now) full development must've started and progressing well.
I believe the next Mario Kart will heavily rely on graphics and add new mechanics, and also have the biggest package from the start(I mean before DLC) and maybe feature some adventure/story mode.
Don't expect it before holiday 2025. If only because that might end up being the first full next gen game/game meant for next gen from inception by Ninty, not much different than how MK8 was mind blowing in 2014. THAT was what I'd call HD development mastering. The game is stunning to this day.

While I appreciate your long answer I don't agree at all. Yeah, Tour is big on content and everything but we can't just assume that resources were roughly the same because of that, we would need actual credits to be proven on that, which we will never get. For example 3 ARMS creators (Directors) were not credited in Tour in any form (not in any patent or oficially listed as game directors) which I found weird as they would get involved in some form given their high profile at EPD9. They are not credited on anything since ARMS, only one of them is credited as MK Supervisor for Home Circuit in 2020. And I am sure this applies to other staff as well, we can't just assume, we would need actual credit to see how many people worked on Tour. Not to mention that EPD staff is fluent so if they need a resources for this game this will just go from other groups, as with any other EPD project.

As for Holiday 2025 or earlier that would make sense, as I wrote that I expect it year 1 of new console which will probably come Holiday 2024 at this point. But we will definitely see this game next year, maybe it could release early 2025 if next system is Spring/Summer 2024. Hard to tell.

 

[TanookiTom]

I think what makes Nintendo a truly great developer is the care they've placed in their IPs: hardly any other industry player has managed to keep their main IPs as beloved and both critically and commercially acclaimed for decades. So yeah I think Nintendo is quite aware of how to manage their franchises well and I totally get their strategy with the last Smash and Mario Kart games -two very expansive entries that first released on a failing console. It also gave them way more space to come up with truly fresh ideas for the next sequels.

 

[xghost777]

Can’t say I necessarily agree. GAAS Mario Kart and Smash Bros is what I want the most right now anchored on the best foundations both series have ever had. Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is mechanically perfect and I’d rather they build on top of it rather than reboot. I’m closing in on 600 hours with just the Switch version and more tracks is far more preferable to less as someone who plays almost daily. That said, I do think after the Booster Course Pass concludes they will be moving on to Mario Kart 9 on Switch 2 for better or worse and I’m sure it will be cool, but inevitably not having 96 tracks at launch is going to sting hard.

Smash Bros is in a more interesting position especially with Sakurai semi retired and Ultimate barely a few years old. Ultimate actually rebuilt a lot of its content from the ground up so it isn’t a Smash 4 port even if it feels similar in some ways. I don’t think this will happen, but what I’d love to see is if Sakurai took all the energy the team would normally use to make a new game and instead poured that into directly building on top Ultimate. A huge chunk of new characters and stages could be joined by tons of new modes and a complete revamp of the online modes. From there you bring on more Fighter Passes and keep Ultimate going for more years to come.

 

[Tangerine_Cookie]

Also, why are we assuming in Mario Kart's case that they can't just... port all 96 tracks from 8DX with changes accounting for any new mechanics?

In Smash Bros it might be harder to do something like that because of third party licenses or whatever, but for Mario Kart? That's actually possible. The assets are already HD and can be made 4K ready with less effort than a ground up remake.

Release Mario Kart X (for 10) on Switch 2, featuring 16 completely new tracks, all 96 tracks from MK8DX+BCP, and any stragglers from tour that didn't get ported in the BCP, and a couple new items, mechanics and characters. That feels very doable.

 

[Lucifer]

Also, why are we assuming in Mario Kart's case that they can't just... port all 96 tracks from 8DX with changes accounting for any new mechanics?

In Smash Bros it might be harder to do something like that because of third party licenses or whatever, but for Mario Kart? That's actually possible. The assets are already HD and can be made 4K ready with less effort than a ground up remake.

Release Mario Kart X (for 10) on Switch 2, featuring 16 completely new tracks, all 96 tracks from MK8DX+BCP, and any stragglers from tour that didn't get ported in the BCP, and a couple new items, mechanics and characters. That feels very doable.

The new tracks are gonna get swallowed online by the old tracks if they do that, the game might end up feeling like it's MK8 again. They should start with new tracks, some old ones and then incorporate other old tracks as time passes, with a mix of new ones as well.

And for the love of God, never ever bring back the Tour city tracks, they're of such low quality compared to the rest.

 

[Thunder84]

Also, why are we assuming in Mario Kart's case that they can't just... port all 96 tracks from 8DX with changes accounting for any new mechanics?

In Smash Bros it might be harder to do something like that because of third party licenses or whatever, but for Mario Kart? That's actually possible. The assets are already HD and can be made 4K ready with less effort than a ground up remake.

Release Mario Kart X (for 10) on Switch 2, featuring 16 completely new tracks, all 96 tracks from MK8DX+BCP, and any stragglers from tour that didn't get ported in the BCP, and a couple new items, mechanics and characters. That feels very doable.

Not only would the depth of the changes needed be heavily dependent on the mechanical changes, but the Tour artstyle directly clashes the MK8 style. They can get away with it for the DLC, but if it’s all bundled together in the base game, something would have to bend.

 

[Tangerine_Cookie]

And for the love of God, never ever bring back the Tour city tracks, they're of such low quality compared to the rest.

To be fair we're still missing Vancouver Velocity, and some of the earlier city tracks are definitely stinkers, but I strongly disagree with this.

Not only would the depth of the changes needed be heavily dependent on the mechanical changes, but the Tour artstyle directly clashes the MK8 style. They can get away with it for the DLC, but if it’s all bundled together in the base game, something would have to bend.

Fixing that up would still be less of an investment than fully new tracks, though.

 

[Thunder84]

To be fair we're still missing Vancouver Velocity, and some of the earlier city tracks are definitely stinkers, but I strongly disagree with this.



Fixing that up would still be less of an investment than fully new tracks, though.

Flip side is that people wouldn't be all that stoked about a game of mostly old tracks. They'd have to go with Mario Kart Ultimate if that's the route they wanna take, people would be fairly upset otherwise.

Granted, I think that's the route they should take, just without any major mechanical changes.

 

[shoptroll]

you do realize they reuse assets for efficiency and not laziness? reusing assets is a necessity of modern game dev

Not even modern game dev. For example, Bionic Commando and Mega Man share the same SFX.