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Discussion You really don't think we can have better?

Chie

Chie

Satonaka Style
Strange title, but this is a thread I've been mulling posting for a while.

I remeber watching the 2004 Around the World in 80 Days movie years ago, I don't remeber much about the movie or even if it was very good, but I remember a scene in the movie where Steve Coogan (the main character) is mocked by the dude running the academy of science that everything that can be discovered has been discovered, and that there was no more ground to break, no more discoveries to make and that things were as good now as they can ever get. Coogan makes a bet with him that he can prove him wrong and eventually does, traveling the world faster than had been done before. Proving that yeah, there's always room to improve, and that society shouldn't be stuck in stasis.

Where I'm going with this is that there is this sentiment that we shouldn't get new Mario Kart or Smash games and that they should just port and add on the 8 Deluxe and Ultimate forever and to me that's just sad. The vibe I get from this is that all people seem to care about is some crazy high number of characters/stages and that nothing else matters, which to be blunt is pathetic.

8DX and Ultimate are built on the bones of their Wii U predecessors and you can really feel it (more for kart than Smash, but Smashs origins are very clear). these games have been iterated on now for almost a decade.

I feel off the smash train hard between the two seasons passes. I did play a bit when Pyra and Mythra came but even that didn't hold my interest for long.

I was inititally super excited for the booster course pack but I'm not playing MK8 as much as I though I would. I'll boot it up a bit when we get those new tracks (and for some multiplayer with friends) but my excitement for this has faded considerably.

Mario Kart and Smash are well made games that people love but I absolutely believe that we could get new and exciting games made that would be better/more fun mechanically than the current games.

EPD is one of Japans best studios, I truely believe they could make a Mario Kart 9 (new and from the ground up) that would blow our minds. I would love this so much.

Smash could easily be done (and should be) by someone who isn't sakurai. I like the dude and respect his work immensely, but at some point new blood has to take over. Otherwise it will turn into a Studio Ghibli situation (Ghibli never trained a next generation to takeover from Takata and Miyazaki, and soon the studio will rot away once Miyazaki is gone.)

The next Nintendo console will in all likehoold have bc, so it's not even like 8dx or Ultimate are going anywhere. Let's stop pretending like they can't make a better Smash and Mario Kart.
 
Great post! Can’t help but agree. Nintendo are too clever and creative to just play those ideas forward forever. You should make more long posts!
 
I think the thing is that sequels are, by their nature, iterative. Nintendo can do new and unique things in racing game and fighting game genres, but at a certain point I'd prefer if they just made a different IP.

They can definitely improve their mechanics, though the ways I'd prefer they improve their mechanics mostly involve making them less accessible to people (remove the frame buffer, speed the games up, add advanced movement techniques). The current iterations of Mario Kart and Smash do feel sorta close to their peak in terms of mass market mechanical appeal. They can make them different but at a certain point they would just be superfluous.
 
Because it's completely unrealistic to expect them to make a new game within a 2-3 year period that can match the breadth of content in games that have essentially had 9+ years worth of continuous development.

Nobody would be willing to accept a Smash Bros game with less content than Ultimate now and it's a waste of Nintendo's finite development resources to try. It's far more sensible for them to just port the existing game over to Switch 2 with some extra content, call it a day and then move onto something completely new and original instead.

Mario Kart could stand to do something totally different, but you aren't going to be seeing that any time soon because the team are still supporting Mario Kart Tour and are currently salvaging those MKT courses for use in MK8DX (after MKT turned out to be a commercial flop). It's MKT's fault that we never got Mario Kart 9 on Switch, not MK8DX.
 
Dcubed said:
Because it's completely unrealistic to expect them to make a new game within a 2-3 year period that can match the breadth of content in games that have essentially had 9+ years worth of continuous development.

Nobody would be willing to accept a Smash Bros game with less content than Ultimate now and it's a waste of Nintendo's finite development resources to try. It's far more sensible for them to just port the existing game over to Switch 2 with some extra content, call it a day and then move onto something completely new and original instead.

Mario Kart could stand to do something totally different, but you aren't going to be seeing that any time soon because the team are still supporting Mario Kart Tour and are currently salvaging those MKT courses for use in MK8DX (after MKT turned out to be a commercial flop). It's MKT's fault that we never got Mario Kart 9 on Switch, not MK8DX.
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A new Smash game can do the same thing other Smash games did: be a new, iterative game while reusing assets. There is a middle ground between "refreshed port" and "hard reboot" that doesn't seem to get acknowledged here.
 
I didn’t think Mario Kart 8 was the best Mario Kart in the first place due to an initially kind of mid track selection, on top of them killing the battle mode (Deluxe one isn’t much better). Now they added even more DLC and basically included every track from the series, apparently they also rebalanced the game so you can win with any character instead of having to use Waluigi and whoever else in his weight class in order to have a chance against sweats. They basically just gave people more reasons to buy and/or keep playing this almost 10 year old game. Could they make a new, better Mario Kart? There’s always room for innovation, especially in terms of single player or alternate modes here but at this point it’s not really worth it. I honestly don’t care at all at this point about how “Mario Kart can grow as a series” when the last big new feature was like 200cc. Yeah let’s make it so Mario Kart gets like a quarter of F-Zero’s speed and let’s include a track from that series, we’re not making a new F-Zero game btw

As for Smash, it’s sort of a peculiar situation due to Sakurai being kind of an auteur here. It’s funny how some people talk about “who can make it to Smash 6” as if it was guarantee to be a thing for Nintendo’s next home console as usual, but times have changed. Of course they can make a better game than Ultimate, especially if they get Bandai Namco off. However, the main appeal is the roster, the amount of characters that got in Ultimate feels like lightning in a bottle or something, there’s no guarantee they can all come back, yet they are all here together in that game. People don’t want to lose their faves. It could honestly take a page from MK8 and just keep getting updates, maybe not new fighter passes but at least stuff like making the online more playable or balance changes so people can unban Steve due to his glitch among other things.

Either way, most fans seem satisfied with both of these iterations as some kind of finished, modern vision of this series so there’s little incentive to make a brand new game for each new console, that’s how it goes for multiplayer games nowadays really
 
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Mekanos said:
A new Smash game can do the same thing other Smash games did: be a new, iterative game while reusing assets. There is a middle ground between "refreshed port" and "hard reboot" that doesn't seem to get acknowledged here.
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OP seems to be against that middle ground too, citing something like Smash Ultimate as something we can do better than.
 
Good thread and a good post. Agreed with everything. How can people think Yabuki's team can't make new Mario Kart new and exciting with fresh new ideas? Just look at what EPD3 did with TotK. But it's harder to say with Smash.
 
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Mekanos said:
A new Smash game can do the same thing other Smash games did: be a new, iterative game while reusing assets. There is a middle ground between "refreshed port" and "hard reboot" that doesn't seem to get acknowledged here.
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But a new Smash game almost certainly can’t do the exact same thing other Smash games did. Because every previous Smash game had more content than the one before it.

I don’t think a full reboot is a good idea, but I do think it’ll be a greater challenge to sell people on the next Smash game, whatever it may be, since they won’t be able to rely on simply having more characters and stages than the last one as a primary selling point anymore.
 
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I mean I agree (and was even trying to make the point about Sakurai's succesor in another thread) but I don't expect it to be better on the normal levels, I think at the least Mario Kart will do something to stand out to a high degree. Smash is harder to say, maybe singleplayer focus, but I don't expect a reboot at all, 99% of players don't care about Mario's moveset not having like Cappy (and keep in mind certain characters are meant to be relatively simple for beginners). I think copyright is a far bigger issue for the roster then dev time
 
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Dcubed said:
Nobody would be willing to accept a Smash Bros game with less content than Ultimate now and it's a waste of Nintendo's finite development resources to try. It's far more sensible for them to just port the existing game over to Switch 2 with some extra content, call it a day and then move onto something completely new and original instead.
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How does every other fighting game do it then? Street Fighter 6 is going to have a much smaller roster than 5. 5 had a smaller roster than 4. They made a new game with new assets and new changes/ mechanics, its that easy. Every other series doe it, don't act a new entry can't have less content than the old one, this shit is the norm. i would buy a new smash with less content if it felt fresh and new. I wouldn't even conisder smash ult with new content, no way i buy that.

GamerJM said:
OP seems to be against that middle ground too, citing something like Smash Ultimate as something we can do better than.
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I want new games from the ground up. New assets, new ideas. It works for every other fighting/racing game out there.
 
Dcubed said:
Mario Kart could stand to do something totally different, but you aren't going to be seeing that any time soon because the team are still supporting Mario Kart Tour and are currently salvaging those MKT courses for use in MK8DX (after MKT turned out to be a commercial flop). It's MKT's fault that we never got Mario Kart 9 on Switch, not MK8DX.
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I could see new Mario Kart launching year 1 into new hardware. Yes, EPD9 is developing Booster Course Pass but we have no idea how much these are done in advance. There is new Mario Kart at least in active development from sometime around 2019, and I am taking into account that both MKT and Booster Course Pass exists. Not a whole team was tied to MKT and certainly not a whole team is tied to MKT and Booster Course Pass.

And I don't think it's really Mario Kart Tour fault we never got new Mario Kart on Switch. It was pretty apparent just in a short period of time that 8 Deluxe is gonna be selling so amazingly well that Nintendo could just go away with it (assuming scenatio that MKT never existed).
 
Video games aren't science, they're art. And I don't know that you can do the Mario Kart formula much better than MK8DX did it. The booster pass pushes the level designs in some ways that are fun, but almost stop making it a racing game, with so many routes and obstacles it starts to become a competitive platformer.

Which is not to say I disagree with you! I just think that one of the reasons that this sentiment has taken root is because these are franchises that are built on offering "more" and now they need to offer something different. Not better, anymore than the White Album is better than Revolver, just fresh. Both MK and Smash have entries that tried to shake things up a bit, and wound up returning to form after because they're not considered as good, so you can understand why Nintendo went "Ultimate" on both franchises.
 
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LukasManak22 said:
I could see new Mario Kart launching year 1 into new hardware. Yes, EPD9 is developing Booster Course Pass but we have no idea how much these are done in advance. There is new Mario Kart at least in active development from sometime around 2019, and I am taking into account that both MKT and Booster Course Pass exists. Not a whole team was tied to MKT and certainly not a whole team is tied to MKT and Booster Course Pass.

And I don't think it's really Mario Kart Tour fault we never got new Mario Kart on Switch. It was pretty apparent just in a short period of time that 8 Deluxe is gonna be selling so amazingly well that Nintendo could just go away with it (assuming scenatio that MKT never existed).
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MKT's dev team size is basically the same as MK8's (100+ people) from what we know; and the BCP is being done by the same staff from Namco who worked on both MKT and MK8. Yes it really is MKT's fault. No you aren't getting MK10 any time before 2026.

Chie said:
How does every other fighting game do it then? Street Fighter 6 is going to have a much smaller roster than 5. 5 had a smaller roster than 4. They made a new game with new assets and new changes/ mechanics, its that easy. Every other series doe it, don't act a new entry can't have less content than the old one, this shit is the norm. i would buy a new smash with less content if it felt fresh and new. I wouldn't even conisder smash ult with new content, no way i buy that.


I want new games from the ground up. New assets, new ideas. It works for every other fighting/racing game out there.
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Because Smash Bros has set the precedent now with Everybody Is Here. Can't go backwards from that now.

Also, Sakurai has now semi-retired anyway. Nintendo wouldn't dare make a new Smash without him. Even more reason why they should just settle with a 4K port of SSBU (plus the stages still missing from the current version of Ultimate), then later do SSBM HD and then give Smash a rest to do something totally new. This even has historical precedent as a Wii port of SSBM with online play was the original plan for Nintendo back in 2005 if Sakurai was to turn down Iwata's request to make a new Smash Bros.
 
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Dcubed said:
MKT's dev team size is basically the same as MK8's (100+ people) from what we know; and the BCP is being done by the same staff from Namco who worked on both MKT and MK8. Yes it really is MKT's fault. No you aren't getting MK10 any time before 2026.
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We don't know the team size of MKT dev team. The only info comes from patents and I think we have say the same for Booster Course Pass.
 
Smash is Sakurai's baby and he's the guy that all the third-parties trusted to do their characters justice.

Unless he refuses to work on the next one (which I find doubtful) he'll be back to some extent. Maybe not as hands-on as before, but still.
 
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As a big proponent of reusing assets when it makes sense I’ve been completely okay with the way these series have been going lately. I’d have found it an incredible shame to see all the work go to waste on the Wii U while the devs target similar hardware with new entries on the Switch.

However, I’m more than happy to finally move on from both of these games on the successor system. I don’t really care if that means that those new entries end up with less "content".
 
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Dcubed said:
Because Smash Bros has set the precedent now with Everybody Is Here. Can't go backwards from that now.

Also, Sakurai has now semi-retired anyway. Nintendo wouldn't dare make a new Smash without him. Even more reason why they should just settle with a 4K port of SSBU (plus the stages still missing from the current version of Ultimate) and then later do SSBM HD and then give Smash a rest to do something totally new.
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Yes you can go back from that. Mortal Kombat 7 did this, and it was the end of the line fro that era of the game. The eighth game was MKvsDC and then the 9th was a reboot. It worked well for them, the series has been in a great place ever since then, with 9, 10, and 11 selling great and being popular games.

Sakurai being retired won't end Smash, the games are too popular to let go dormant. There was always going to be a point that Sakurai would walk away and Nintendo surely has planned for that for some time.
 
Dardan Sandiego said:
As big proponent of reusing assets when it makes sense I’ve been completely okay with the way these series have been going lately. I’d have found it an incredible shame to see all the work go to waste on the Wii U while the devs target similar hardware with new entries on the Switch.

However, I’m more than happy to finally move on from both of these games on the successor system. I don’t really care if that means that those new entries end up with less "content".
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I don't take issue with 8dx and ultimate on Switch. Wii U was a dud and the software suffered for being shackeled to it. I am glad Nintendo has ported almost everything from it (and i'm confident they will port the remaining titles one day). But yeah these games finally had their time in the sun and it's time to move on.
 
Anyway, I don't have a strong opinion on Mario Kart's direction but I wouldn't be particularly excited about a Smash reboot. It's the one series where I am fine with an iterative focus and more characters and stages added on top as long as is feasible. And I can't imagine most would-be buyers would be too enthralled about a series with a much smaller cast than the last game. I expect some cuts, but nothing like what people suggest.
 
Can't say much about Smash since it, and fighting games in general, has never been my thing. However I think that one very obvious move that Mario Kart could make is to make a Mario Kart Maker if you will. In my mind it is basically Trackmania but for Mario Kart. I kind of doubt they are going to go that route exactly but having a robust track editor/creator seems like something that could easily justify a Mario Kart 9.
 
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I don't have Smash so can't really comment, but we absolutely need a new Mario Kart on the next console. It just needs to be extremely fun and beautiful to outshine MK8 Deluxe, because the amount of great tracks there is crazy. And it still looks ok.
 
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Completely agree with you, OP

I was tired of Mario Kart 8's face in 2015... 8 YEARS AGO!.. adding new tracks and characters aren't doing much for me; I loved the Yoshi's Island track they added recently, and I'm definetly picking it up once more if they add Diddy Kong or something.. but MAN... let's move on already!

Of course Nintendo can make up something new and fresh, they always do; people say that because they don't know any better currently.. but they'll come up with fun new mechanics and gimmicks for the next entry;

As for Smash, everytime someone suggests Ultimate to be ported forward (potentially forever) I knock on wood 100x times; Even if they add Crash Bandicoot (my most wanted character) in an eventual port, I'm sure I'd get tired of the game way faster than if it was a brand new game with it's own identidy. I really hope we never fall on the same trappings of Mario Kart 8 Deluxe with Smash, personally;

And yes, I do believe Sakurai should step down, but not because I don't like him or anything, but because he achieved his >personal< max with Ultimate; someone else (probably at Bamco, someone he personally trusts) should be the one to lead the next game; And to be quite frank, Sakurai would still remain in a supervision role so there's that lol
 
Dcubed said:
Because it's completely unrealistic to expect them to make a new game within a 2-3 year period that can match the breadth of content in games that have essentially had 9+ years worth of continuous development.
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i don't think that's at all what OP is expecting. I would even add to their point that the absolutely massive level of content they've accrued over the past few years of DLC is not sustainable and at some point I think it would actually be really cool if they "reset", so to speak, and redid some concepts from the ground up.

What if we had a more "realistic", tactile, burning rubber kart racer with only 16 characters and 16 courses? Revamped physics system, and secret unlockable characters built into the game that weren't even in the original one (Kirby, etc)

My point is there are plenty of ways they can inject brand new life into a series like Mario Kart in ways that don't equate to re-re-rereleasing a game built on a decade-old engine using decade-old assets.

My real point is that just because we can't think of another way, doesn't mean Nintendo can't. Is limiting our own desires to our meager imaginations really the fun way to live?


Dcubed said:
Nobody would be willing to accept a Smash Bros game with less content than Ultimate now and it's a waste of Nintendo's finite development resources to try.
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I disagree
 
Also, as someone who voted for K. Rool in the Smash Ballot and put in tons and tons of hours into him in Ultimate... I know I would be really bummed if he got cut from the next game because of an arbitrary reboot. This is why Sakurai has always tried to cut as few fighters as possible between games.

I don't think Smash 6 needs to just be Ultimate+. It can have its own identity, mechanics, and ideas. But there's nothing wrong with reusing assets either.
 
There's an obscene amount of stuff Nintendo has yet to even try with Mario Kart. The battle mode in 8 Deluxe is a good sign that they are aware of this but it could be so much more.

I don't think Smash has as much potential yet to be uncovered but I'm sure there's new places to take the franchise in that isn't just adding more content on top of Ultimate. I wouldn't be surprised if the next Smash game is Ultimate DX however.
 
Dcubed said:
Smash Bros has set the precedent now with Everybody Is Here. Can't go backwards from that now.
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Except you absolutely can. Smash Ultimate's whole gimmick was "Everyone is here!"

The next Smash can and should have its own gimmick.
 
You can't look at how other fighting games do things and apply that to Smash. It's a different audience bred with very different expectations created by Sakurai's own peculiarities. Smash fans not being accepting of cuts long predates Everyone Is Here, it's the reason that happened to begin with.
 
CyberWolfJV said:
Completely agree with you, OP

I was tired of Mario Kart 8's face in 2015... 8 YEARS AGO!.. adding new tracks and characters aren't doing much for me; I loved the Yoshi's Island track they added recently, and I'm definetly picking it up once more if they add Diddy Kong or something.. but MAN... let's move on already!

Of course Nintendo can make up something new and fresh, they always do; people say that because they don't know any better currently.. but they'll come up with fun new mechanics and gimmicks for the next entry;

As for Smash, everytime someone suggests Ultimate to be ported forward (potentially forever) I knock on wood 100x times; Even if they add Crash Bandicoot (my most wanted character) in an eventual port, I'm sure I'd get tired of the game way faster than if it was a brand new game with it's own identidy. I really hope we never fall on the same trappings of Mario Kart 8 Deluxe with Smash, personally;

And yes, I do believe Sakurai should step down, but not because I don't like him or anything, but because he achieved his >personal< max with Ultimate; someone else (probably at Bamco, someone he personally trusts) should be the one to lead the next game; And to be quite frank, Sakurai would still remain in a supervision role so there's that lol
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Banjo and Kazooie were always my most wanted newcomer and I lost my shit when they got in the game and I played them a ton, I would be sad to see them go but I would 100 percent be okay with a a fresh, new Smash game without them. Ultimate is still around and will always be around I can always bust that out and play it still. It's not like people still aren't playing a 20 year old Smash game.

And yeah someone new needs to (and will) take over smash at some point to avoid the Ghibli situation. Imagine if Miyamoto was still spearheading Mario and Zelda and hadn't passed these series off to Koizumi and Aonuma.

bellydrum said:
i don't think that's at all what OP is expecting. I would even add to their point that the absolutely massive level of content they've accrued over the past few years of DLC is not sustainable and at some point I think it would actually be really cool if they "reset", so to speak, and redid some concepts from the ground up.

What if we had a more "realistic", tactile, burning rubber kart racer with only 16 characters and 16 courses? Revamped physics system, and secret unlockable characters built into the game that weren't even in the original one (Kirby, etc)

My point is there are plenty of ways they can inject brand new life into a series like Mario Kart in ways that don't equate to re-re-rereleasing a game built on a decade-old engine using decade-old assets.

My real point is that just because we can't think of another way, doesn't mean Nintendo can't. Is limiting our own desires to our meager imaginations really the fun way to live?




I disagree
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I would be more than happy with a new Mario Kart that had a lower track count. I would be very happy with 32 (8 vanilla, 7, Wii and DS) or even 16 tracks if it was all new.

Sure 8dx has 80 tracks in it, but that number doesn't mean anything when i've played most of them to death, gotten bored of them by this point.

Also this thing you said is critical: "My real point is that just because we can't think of another way, doesn't mean Nintendo can't. Is limiting our own desires to our meager imaginations really the fun way to live?"

Nintendo's developers and collabartoers are far more creative than we can imagine. They could come up with stuff that we didn't even realize that we would have wanted until we saw it. We need to give them a chance to surprise us, I know they can do it.
 
Agreed. People can't see a way to progress Smash any further, but there's so much they can do besides expand the roster further.

Almost every long-running fighting game has had a roster refresh with their sequels. Mortal Kombat has even had an Everyone Is Here moment and it was fine when the next entry had cuts. New mechanics, characters, upgraded visuals, etc are exciting to people, and people that want to keep playing Ultimate will just keep playing Ultimate.

Personally speaking, a new Smash Bros that does a complete stage and roster refresh where every character has been revamped in some way (something like Bowser's transformation from Brawl to 4) would be very exciting for me. There's tons of room for mechanical improvement in that series.

I have less of an opinion on Kart, but I think there's still tons of ways to innovate that series. I've seen people act like these games being stupidly polished and full of content is the endgame, but the reality is that people will eventually tire of playing the same games and will want updated versions, and we should be asking for more exciting improvements than just more characters and tracks (even if that would satisfy a lot of people).
 
Stilt Village said:
You can't look at how other fighting games do things and apply that to Smash. It's a different audience bred with very different expectations created by Sakurai's own peculiarities. Smash fans not being accepting of cuts long predates Everyone Is Here, it's the reason that happened to begin with.
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Disagree massively. People in other fighting games complain about characters not returning but it doesn't hurt the game. There was all that rage about the pokedex cuts before Sword and Shield but that game sold huge and the series hasn't been hurt.

If they announce a new Smash with a roster of 25 characters, there will be people raging online and posted rage filled stuff on social media but it won't affect the games sales at all. People will still buy the game and like it.
 
Chie said:
Banjo and Kazooie were always my most wanted newcomer and I lost my shit when they got in the game and I played them a ton, I would be sad to see them go but I would 100 percent be okay with a a fresh, new Smash game without them. Ultimate is still around and will always be around I can always bust that out and play it still. It's not like people still aren't playing a 20 year old Smash game.

And yeah someone new needs to (and will) take over smash at some point to avoid the Ghibli situation. Imagine if Miyamoto was still spearheading Mario and Zelda and hadn't passed these series off to Koizumi and Aonuma.
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Exactly, and as you said, the next Nintendo hardware has a 99% chance of being backwards compatible; and everyone will have means to play Ultimate with all its content anyway.. you even have less of an argument to port or remaster any Switch game, imo;

-- for Mario Kart, a good solution is simply getting rid of the Retro Cups and get us a set of 32 brand new tracks, and not a single returning one; The roster shake up may or may not happen, but hey, at least the game is already fresh enough to try it out
 
MissingNo. said:
Except you absolutely can. Smash Ultimate's whole gimmick was "Everyone is here!"

The next Smash can and should have its own gimmick.
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Maybe as a complete reboot. I don't want an improved version of Ultimate that's missing some characters. That'd be disappointing.
 
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Honestly, I love Sakurai and his output, but I'd rather see someone new take over as has been suggested and have Sakurai make something else. I feel strongly that new blood and new perspectives can bring a lot to a series, and I bet there's plenty of people out there with some ideas on how to make Smash new and exciting mechanically.
 
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Stilt Village said:
Disagree massively. The entire appeal of this series is the characters and the amount of content.
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Not for me. I like that it is a accessible platform fighter based on Nintendo ip. The number of characters matters little to me. Even Smash 64 with its 12 person roster is still fun and enjoyable.
 
Mario Kart has plenty of room for improvement. Add Nintendo characters, tracks from different Nintendo series, rewamp Battle Mode, improve item dynamic (let you swap itens, for example), etc.

Smash is a different story, as others said. The whole appeal of Ultimate is Everyone is Here. Even with a reboot of mechanics, not having the sheer amount of content Ultimate has will leave a sour taste for the majority.
 
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Anyway, this is one of the best thread topics I've seen on this site, thanks for starting this discussion. Please feel free to post your thoughts more.

Stilt Village said:
The entire appeal of this series is the characters and the amount of content.
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Imagine if the next game added 20 more characters, and also added tripping. Would that game be more popular? Is Melee still not the most beloved Smash title with a fraction of the characters and content of Ultimate?
 
For smash bros in particular, it's very easy for smash to do new things. For one, smash is still built on the backbone of poor physics introduced by brawl; how a platform fighting series persists without conserved momentum on jumps is beyond me. Furthermore, smash is more "free form" than most other fighters, yet most of the stage designs haven't evolved passed what was introduced in melee. For me, waiting for a new smash game has been more fun than actually playing one for the last 17 years.

This isn't even touching on technical aspects like the horrid input lag, buffering window, or netcode

Disagree massively. The entire appeal of this series is the characters and the amount of content.
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I do agree that a lot of it is based in fan-service, but I feel to a degree that it's detrimental to smash. Ultimate already had to reuse a lot and have a lot of concessions in order for it to have the content it does, I would like the next game to be more focused with less characters but I understand many people don't
 
bellydrum said:
Anyway, this is one of the best thread topics I've seen on this site, thanks for starting this discussion. Please feel free to post your thoughts more.
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Thanks for the vote of confidence.
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bellydrum said:
Anyway, this is one of the best thread topics I've seen on this site, thanks for starting this discussion. Please feel free to post your thoughts more.


Imagine if the next game added 20 more characters, and also added tripping. Would that game be more popular? Is Melee still not the most beloved Smash title with a fraction of the characters and content of Ultimate?
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If roster count is all that matters the Mugen is by far the greatest fighting game of all, it has 1000s of fighters.
 
Honestly, people would be more forgiving of a smaller roster if enough gameplay changes are introduced.

My dream for a Smash reboot is Smash Bros x Power Stone. Power Stone is played isometrically and could be pretty interesting if next Smash Bros game tries that.
 
Smash isn't Street Fighter. Going full reboot is an awful idea.

Smash Ultimate marketing: We got K Rool and Simon Belmont. Plus Solid Snake is back!

Smash Reboot marketing: All your favorite characters are fucking gone and the roster is small as hell, but uh... DK can throw barrels now

That's totally how you follow up the best-selling fighting game of all time, one famous for all the hype it brings /s
 
RochHoch said:
Smash isn't Street Fighter. Going full reboot is an awful idea.

Smash Ultimate marketing: We got K Rool and Simon Belmont. Plus Solid Snake is back!

Smash Reboot marketing: All your favorite characters are fucking gone and the roster is small as hell, but uh... DK can throw barrels now

That's totally how you follow up the best-selling fighting game of all time, one famous for all the hype it brings /s
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Ultmiate didn't sell based on the addition of characters who haven't been in a game in years. It sold because it looked good and for most people, they hadn't gotten a new console smash since brawl on the wii.

Reboot works for Street Fighter and can for Smash.
 
Chie said:
Not for me. I like that it is a accessible platform fighter based on Nintendo ip. The number of characters matters little to me. Even Smash 64 with its 12 person roster is still fun and enjoyable.
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So like... do you not care which characters are there? Is anything fine so long as they're owned by Nintendo? I'm struggling to understand what you actually want besides a game that reaches some arbitrary threshold of novelty.

bellydrum said:
Imagine if the next game added 20 more characters, and also added tripping. Would that game be more popular? Is Melee still not the most beloved Smash title with a fraction of the characters and content of Ultimate?
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Brawl was in fact more popular than Melee, yes. You could maybe argue that Melee had the better attach rate, but at that point you also have to consider how different the audiences of the two consoles were and it's all just guesswork. In any case, Brawl sold almost twice as many copies and is remembered very fondly by most people. It was such a drastic downgrade in gameplay it permanently split the grassroots competitive scene for the series in two, but nobody else really cared.
 
I would be very disappointed in just enhanced versions of Mario Kart and Smash on next gen hardware. This is Nintendo’s first real leap in power since the Wii U, I want to see ambitious, next gen versions of these franchises that blow our socks off. These are Nintendo’s premier games, I want them to go all out and try something they haven’t or weren’t able to do before. For Mario Kart, I would love to see something like a Mario Kart: Horizon where you drive around an open air mushroom kingdom to race and explore. For smash I’m on board with trying something completely new, like transitioning to a 3D fighting game while keeping the spirit of the previous titles. Go all out and show us the next evolution of these franchises. Even if there is technically “less content” people will absolutely show up for an ambitious jump into something new
 
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I would totally be down if the downsized the roster for a new smash, I want them to change up existing characters in the way they did for Link, update their movesets and change their looks to match their current game.

The one thing I want that will absolutely not happen and that most if not everyone would be against is for Smash to go back to being Nintendo characters only.
 
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TBH I just don't like the idea of a total reboot for Smash. Always struck me a really pointless and going a bit overboard as a way to differentiate the next one from Ultimate.

I do agree Nintendo isn't going to just port MK8 (again) and Ultimate to the Switch successor and call it a day, though. Acting like Nintendo isn't going to continue to make two of their best selling series is silly.
 
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I haven't really seen this sentiment for Mario Kart, the opposite is a lot more common in fact. People are champing at the bit for a true Mario Kart 9 after having played 8 for almost a decade

For Smash... don't agree. The appeal is the roster. They probably won't be able to bring every single character back, but these games live and die by their newcomers. Well not literally die, they'd probably still be successful, but rebooting would be a very unpopular idea.
 
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