Discussion Xbox - Where did it all go wrong?

[Derachi]

The 360 was a fluke largely capitalizing on Sony falling face first with the PS3.

While I won’t say PS3 stumbling out of the gate was not a factor, I do think you’ve gotta give the 360 a bit more credit than that. It set the standard for an online video game console should work. From the focus on online play (going so far as to include a headset in every box) to figuring out, on the fly, exactly how an online digital marketplace should work. They really broke a lot of new ground with that system, not to mention that they had the games to back it up. Gears of War was excellent and, at the time, a visual showcase, and you cannot overstate just how big of a video game launch Halo 3 was. Like, at the time it was one of the biggest entertainment launches in history. It’s probably still high on that list.

 

[HockeyBird]

While I won’t say PS3 stumbling out of the gate was not a factor, I do think you’ve gotta give the 360 a bit more credit than that. It set the standard for an online video game console should work. From the focus on online play (going so far as to include a headset in every box) to figuring out, on the fly, exactly how an online digital marketplace should work. They really broke a lot of new ground with that system, not to mention that they had the games to back it up. Gears of War was excellent and, at the time, a visual showcase, and you cannot overstate just how big of a video game launch Halo 3 was. Like, at the time it was one of the biggest entertainment launches in history. It’s probably still high on that list.

In 2007, Xbox had Bioshock, Halo 3, and Mass Effect as exclusives. Although also on PS3, Call of Duty 4 was closely associated with Xbox because of it being at Microsoft's press conference. Games like Fable 2, Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, and Ninja Gaiden II were in the pipeline. Throughout the entire generation, third party games generally ran better on 360. Microsoft was pulling away exclusives like Final Fantasy and GTA.

Meanwhile, in 2007, Sony had Heavenly Sword, a new Ratchet game, the very first Uncharted, and Lair. You had some cool things coming around like Infamous and Metal Gear Solid 4, but nothing that could compete with what Xbox had. Sony had an overreliance on Japanese developers who weren't exactly transitioning to HD very well. The Playstation Network, while free, was still leagues behind what Xbox Live as offering. It took Sony years to catch up.

The Xbox was the place to game from late 2005 to I'd say 2010 or 2011.

 

[AngryAlchemist]

I do think there’s an interesting comparison to the WiiU thread just in terms of initial reveal and marketing with the Xbox One, at least as someone that looked at it from outside the US. Because, as you say, I understand why they were heavily leaning on the idea of a Kinect pack-in in the preceding couple of years. But when they revealed the XBO, as someone in Europe, we already knew the gaming big hitters were Halo/Gears/Forza. But to then have the reveal be squarely focused on ‘tv deals for sports you don’t care about on networks you don’t have! Plus motion controls and shooters/sports/racing!’, the whole thing seemed to be a package squarely focused at a really specific idea of their customer being some young American guy sitting around in a huge living room. It was just mystifying when Sony and Nintendo’s marketing is usually pretty neutral and universal. Compared to the WiiU, that’s big issue was the marketing left you really unclear about what it was, the XBO was really, hyper specific about what it was and the customers it wanted (anyone remember ‘tier 3 countries’?), to the point of being pretty offputting, at least from across the pond.

Anyway, that’s just my memories of a launch show though, so a really specific moment in time, rather than a wider, more nuanced view that others have covered. It’s just the other thread that made me think of the comparison in terms of how reveal shows set the pace for discussion for months before the product launches.

Oh yeah, totally. I wasn't trying to say the focus on Kinect wasn't bad - it was. I just kind of get why they focused on it to some extent, even if in retrospect I think the appeal was pretty much entirely dead by late 2013. And like you said, it was very american centric. Which is dumb because uh ...

The 360 did very well in Europe

It's also kind of funny because (and this is also somewhat of a tangent ) every console manufacturer has had to go through a period where they really learn to lean in on their first party, so it's odd it's taken MS this long to do it. Playstation went through it with the PS3 realizing that they couldn't rely on third parties forever, even as a third party driven platform, and had to start building top tier first party studios. Nintendo sort of realized it (though they always sold mostly on Nintendo games) with the N64 where their brand power and Rare pretty much stood alone to prop up the console - though you could argue they didn't fully realize their model until the Wii came out given their halfhearted attempt at courting third parties with the Gamecube. Sega didn't even breakthrough until they got better first party with Sonic. So the fact that MS is just now doing it is weird. They did it organically and naturally too from like 2001-2008. After that they just stopped investing to the same degree until Spencer came along.

 

[GamerJM]

It's the obvious answer but that reveal was really a turning point. The Xbox One should have been a slam dunk in retrospect, people had invested heavily into the 360 ecosystem, but they made the worst possible PR decisions and at launch it didn't even matter because nothing was BC.

 

[ILikeFeet]

It's the obvious answer but that reveal was really a turning point. The Xbox One should have been a slam dunk in retrospect, people had invested heavily into the 360 ecosystem, but they made the worst possible PR decisions and at launch it didn't even matter because nothing was BC.

they didn't have much of a choice with BC. the only thing they could have done was think of spending the money to convert games sooner, but I think the TV TV TV stuff and the FUD regarding used games and always-online did the most damage at the reveal. games released with regular cadence would have helped out, but they couldn't do that either

 

[Beard]

It’s about the games.

It’s entirely possible I’m forgetting something, but Xbox hasn’t had an “event” release that stops the rest of the industry in its tracks since Gears of War 3. If Starfield truly delivers, it will be the first Xbox title to really break through in 12 years. Think about that. How many PlayStation and Nintendo releases have been major mainstream successes during the last TWELVE years?

(To be fair, I guess you could argue Forza Horizon 5 came close, maybe? And Kinect itself was obviously a big deal)

 

[MaitreWakou]

Man, I'm one of those persons who think the Xbox 360 was THE console to own of that generation (along with the Wii of course), it was such a massive ecosystem in comparison to the PS3 that is imo the worst console Sony ever made.
I have so much nostalgia for my teenage years playing the X360 and the Wii, while the PS3 took the dust.

But then the Xbox One happened, awful PR, shitty first party games. And on the other hand, the PS4 felt great to play with, to navigate within, and started to get all the crazy games starting in 2015.

I'm not too crazy on PS5's first party games, but the Xbox One's are still so bad.

 

[PixelKnight]

they didn't have much of a choice with BC. the only thing they could have done was think of spending the money to convert games sooner, but I think the TV TV TV stuff and the FUD regarding used games and always-online did the most damage at the reveal. games released with regular cadence would have helped out, but they couldn't do that either

I’d forgotten about the ‘used games’ and ‘always online’ stuff. The whole thing just seemed like trying to mask a series of things that benefitted the company (constant engagement, more online checks and accounts, microtransactions, limited ability to share games) as some grand future of gaming that somehow benefited customers. Why on earth you’d lead with those as marketing points is beyond me when it was so transparent. Multinationals clutching pearls about second-hand games was a big thing at the time but seems so silly now given the gradual switch to digital they all knew was coming ever since they all started their online stores anyway.

I think it’s that whole thing of convenience. 360 made it easy to jump into online gaming and Halo and friends lists etc in the months before the PS3 launched, all stuff players wanted so a huge base bedded in surprisingly quickly compared to its predecessor. But XBO just announced itself as endless barriers based around stuff Microsoft cared about but players, not so much. Gamepass, at least, seems like a step in the right direction in terms of making it easy for a large chunk of their audience to spend much of their hobby time with Xbox. A bit like the Switch concept, good ideas are those that seem effortless and easy to the customer (even if they’ve been a ton of hard work to develop).

 

[BowserIsMyFather]

I have a feeling they are playing the long game. Once those studios they have start putting out the goods then they will be very formidable.

That said, I do see a mostly digital future for them. Whether that includes hardware or not is anyone's guess, but they do seem to be having a lot more success in the PC arena at the moment.

I imagine a future where Game Pass is streamed to any device capable of doing so. What that means for the Xbox brand on the whole is anyone's guess, but I do believe their early investment in cloud gaming will eventually pay off big time.

I'm not going to complain if they become 'The Netflix of Gaming'.

 

[Reinhard Schneider]

Did it really... go wrong?

Sure, if we look at console sales Xbox isn't really in the best position, but if we take a look at the whole picture, they have been, little by little, getting exactly what they wanted:

• Normalized microtransactions in first party games
• Always online DRM slowly becoming the norm
• Consoles as multimedia machines
• Digital future slowly becoming a reality
• DirectX, while still competing with OpenGL and now Vulkan, is the de facto standard API on PC
• Xinput is THE standard input API not only on PC, but basically everywhere (even on iOS?)
• They have acquired two of the top third party players, effectively gaining the ability to exert pressure on their direct competitors, and a chokehold on certain key franchises like Minecraft and Call of Duty
• Cloud gaming and subscription services are slowly becoming normalised. They even used Gamepass as a trojan horse to ease the PC crowd into it
  • And with Cloud gaming, they're making themselves a place inside mobile and Android (meaning, not only android phones), where they failed miserably before.

As much as i don't like Microsoft's approach to gaming (the have fucked up gaming more than Sony did, imo), their strategy is genius, regardless of if they're doing it on purpose or not. They're playing the long game, and they're winning, forcing their adversaries to react instead of coming up with their own solutions.

 

[Mer.Saloon]

Did it really... go wrong?

Sure, if we look at console sales Xbox isn't really in the best position, but if we take a look at the whole picture, they have been, little by little, getting exactly what they wanted:

• Normalized microtransactions in first party games
• Always online DRM slowly becoming the norm
• Consoles as multimedia machines
• Digital future slowly becoming a reality
• DirectX, while still competing with OpenGL and now Vulkan, is the de facto standard API on PC
• Xinput is THE standard input API not only on PC, but basically everywhere (even on iOS?)
• They have acquired two of the top third party players, effectively gaining the ability to exert pressure on their direct competitors, and a chokehold on certain key franchises like Minecraft and Call of Duty
• Cloud gaming and subscription services are slowly becoming normalised. They even used Gamepass as a trojan horse to ease the PC crowd into it
  • And with Cloud gaming, they're making themselves a place inside mobile and Android (meaning, not only android phones), where they failed miserably before.

As much as i don't like Microsoft's approach to gaming (the have fucked up gaming more than Sony did, imo), their strategy is genius, regardless of if they're doing it on purpose or not. They're playing the long game, and they're winning, forcing their adversaries to react instead of coming up with their own solutions.

It will be a while before they can even approach doing that. While we may not know all the details of things that had to change. Their recent tussle with the FCC and FTC required them to make a lot of concessions regarding what they can do with the Activision games.

And they even had to make concessions regarding cloud gaming that will stall them.

And they are spending a fortune regularly enough that slowing growth could just have them lose ground to their competition.

 

[Armoured_Bear]

For me when I found circular scratches on my Xbox 360 discs. Vowed never to get another Xbox product again.

I really don't understand this kind of reaction to be honest, one bad experience with one product and no matter how good and reliable their subsequent systems are, they're blacklisted for ever.

 

[Notsowise]

Xbox one reveal destroyed xbox image and public perception.

The same happened with Wii U and PS3.

Nintendo and Sony, however, have built a strong 1st party, so they can rebuild after a horrible hardware launch/marketing.

Microsoft doesn’t. That’s why they went shopping for developers.

 

[Deleted member 3433]

I really don't understand this kind of reaction to be honest, one bad experience with one product and no matter how good and reliable their subsequent systems are, they're blacklisted for ever.

I had a huge collection of Xbox 360 titles. Now imagine if you find such scratches on most of your discs because one assumed that there were none because you're exceptionally careful. The Xbox 360 was hardware-wise a bad machine, and this issue with the lens scratching games affected quite a number of people. They even tried to sweep it under the carpet, which really pissed me off. Loved the software, hated the hardware. So yeah, they lost me ever since. I'm not losing sleep over it either as the direction they took with subsequent machines isn't my thing.

 

[Armoured_Bear]

the internet is not fucking good enough and never will be, not consistently, not most places

No idea how you can say it never will be.
In plenty of parts of the world it is good enough, I have an utterly solid 3ms ping 10GBit/s connection, haven't had any sort of downtime for many years.
Not that I want it in a console but internet should at one point be good enough.

 

[Armoured_Bear]

I had a huge collection of Xbox 360 titles. Now imagine if you find such scratches on most of your discs because one assumed that there were none because you're exceptionally careful. The Xbox 360 was hardware-wise a bad machine, and this issue with the lens scratching games affected quite a number of people. They even tried to sweep it under the carpet, which really pissed me off. Loved the software, hated the hardware. So yeah, they lost me ever since. I'm not losing sleep over it either as the direction they took with subsequent machines isn't my thing.

Fair enough, even though I have a Series X, it leaves me pretty cold.

 

[freedomseekr]

Speaking for myself, Xbox has left me cold for most of the time they've been around. There was a brief period early in the life of the Xbox 360 where it seemed they were poised to take the PS2's spot and I bought one mainly for Blue Dragon and in anticipation of Lost Odyssey. I ended up not playing as much on the device as I was starting uni at the time and so I relegated the precious little time I had for home gaming to the Wii and mostly stuck with handhelds for the rest of the time, so I sold my tiny collection of 360 stuff (and then got a PS3 because I wanted a BD player).

As a fan of mainly Japanese games, outside of this window from ~2005 to ~2010, there's just absolutely nothing on Xbox systems I'd consider of major value. Even with Sony's attitude towards smaller Japanese devs following the transfer of the PlayStation division's HQ to the USA becoming what it was (or still is - idk if Sony still does the stuff they did in 2017, 2018), most of them stuck with PlayStation or expanded their output to the Switch once they saw that it was a system with a strong base in their home country. In contrast to that, I associate the Xbox brand with the aspects of gaming that interest me the least and as a result... why bother? And even there, Sony seems to have the upper hand - the whole "critically acclaimed cinematic game" market is dancing to their fiddle.

Even to this day it astonishes me that Microsoft went chasing after the Wii’s market when they had made such amazing progress capturing their initial demographic - Playstation gamers. Two generations of incredible progress in terms of sales and mind share and they pissed it up the wall chasing so-called ‘casual’ gamers. Nintendo went that way out of necessity, Microsoft because they weren’t content with just a slice of the pie, they wanted/want the whole thing.

Sony also did that with Move. They just abandoned the product much more quickly than Microsoft dropped the Kinect.