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Spoiler Which was the more interesting premise for lore, worldbuilding and narrative groundwork - Sheikah or Zonai?

Was the Sheikah or the Zonai more interesting in terms of lore?

  • Sheikah

    Votes: 46 45.1%
  • Zonai

    Votes: 56 54.9%

  • Total voters
    102

Irene

Soar long!
Pronouns
She/Her
This discussion and thread is made with full fire spoilers in mind - tread carefully!

Both Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom based their respective lore around one particular tribe. In BotW, we got the Sheikah, who served as the narrative context and framework for things like Hyrule's backstory, the Shrines and the Divine Beasts. The whole conflict with Calamity Ganon and Zelda revolved around the Calamity controlling the Divine Beasts and the Guardians, both of Sheikah invention.

The Zonai followed a similar pattern of laying the groundwork for the things set in motion with TotK. Zelda's role in the story is very much tied to Rauru, a Zonai, who led the Imprisoning War. The sky islands where some of the adventure takes place is littered with Zonai architecture, on top of being the place where the tribe is originally from. The majority of the gameplay components, like the devices and the energy cells, are all Zonai in origin.

So the question is, were the Sheikah or the Zonai more interesting from a story and lore standpoint?
 
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Naturally Zonai. We actually get to see two of their people living in their time, whereas the Sheikah folks just sit there... menacingly.

Though I still have a soft spot for the ninja monk boss in Bread's DLC.
 
For me, it's definitely the Zonai.

Going from being Itisamystery.png in the previous work to being on full-display in the very next thing is a risky move for any type of media, but I think they did a nice job integrating Zonai into the the mythos. Even the Ancient Hero in the 10,000 year old mural gets a bit more clarity of his connection to the Zonai, if you stick it out in TOTK, and I appreciated that!

Now granted, your guess is as good as mine for what Zonai mean for the timeline as a whole, but I honestly hope that this is a race that we get to see more of in the years and games ahead.
 
I personally like the Sheikah and their role in BotW more than the Zonai in TotK.

The Sheikah and the Zonai serve effectively the same role in their respective games, as outlined in the OP. The source of the major gameplay mechanic, the source of the shrines and your upgrade system, the ancient lore surrounding the events of the game, key enemy types and NPCs, all of them come from the two groups. And that's part of the problem for me. The Zonai kinda feel like, "Second verse, same as the first," where we have the same world but the Sheikah stuff gets swapped out for the Zonai stuff.

It doesn't help that I find a lot of the past story content with the Zonai to be...not that interesting? The environmental storytelling with the ruins and sky islands and such, those are pretty great, but unlike the ancient Sheikah, who we only hear about and know through their tech, we see Rauru and Mineru in the flashbacks. Some of the mystery is lost, even if the two are some of the few we see, and the dive back to the founding of Hyrule through the Zelda flashbacks ends up less effective on a pure narrative basis than the more personal Link flashbacks from the previous game. I haven't seen all the cutscenes for myself, and my thoughts may change when I finish the game, but I think I'll still end up liking the Sheikah more.
 
The Zonai.

It’s so Nintendo to have the ancient race they teased in the first game end up being a tribe that… developed wheels, rockets, and other random weird tools.

Like it’s so clearly done for gameplay reasons that it becomes charming and unique to me. No one else would’ve approached it that way lol.

Their shrines and other architecture also have a killer aesthetic and might even top the sheikah for me, which is a big bar to clear because my favorite color is blue and I adored BotW’s sheikah aesthetic
 
Neither honestly, Sheikah having all the fancy ancient technology was basically a quirk they added on top of what was already established, same thing with all of the other tribes. Some were worthy additions (Gerudos not being a band of thieves) but the ancient technology stuff just felt superficial, this kind of plot device just feels like a cop-out for me and I don’t think BOTW did it particularly well

Zonai will most definitely be expanded upon in future entries but I can’t really be enthuastic about that since they basically felt like green Sheikah, on top of being massive retcon fuel. If they make games that occur before BOTW, they are going to fit in the Zonai within the existing lore of the series. So it’s like the Zonai basically opened some holes into the timeline (yes Nintendo cares about it since Hyrule Historia, they explicitly talk about it at this point). I’d prefer if new games did something other than trying to redefine the already established lore about Hyrule. That can either be more games that take place outside of Hyrule, or something that ties into the past mythos more elegantly
 
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The Shiekah stuff helps give BOTW that mood of bitter regret that TOTK just isn't going for, so I prefer that.
 
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Like the rest of TotK, the Zonai are like a Sheikah copy, but in this instance I'll admit they're better than what came before. Rauru, Mineru and the whole imprisoning war sequences are superior to anything in BotW. And while I liked the blue tech-heavy Sheikah theme, I think the mystical green Zonai theme is cooler.

Divine Beasts were better than TotK dungeons, though!
 
I'd say neither were interesting but if I had to choose I'd go with Sheikah.

Sheikah, the shadow folk, was really interesting before BOTW. Then game came and ruined it.
Zonai was really interesting in BOTW, than Totk came and also ruined it. But I consider Sheikah development better than Zonai hence my choice.

Not fan of the ancient tech thing so that explains a lot. And none of BOTW Zonai references hinted at this high tech civilization.

Also, Zonai feels like a boring way of retconning Zelda franchise lore.
 
Zonai was really interesting in BOTW, than Totk came and also ruined it
The development conversation was interesting, about how the Zonai's background had to change because the gameplay was shifting

The Zonai were originally intended to be a highly magical culture with no technology. The device system was intended to be a magic system, with the battery as the magic meter. But the design of the various components became more and more analogs for technological things so that players could understand them, which lead to changing Zonai history.
 
The Zonai had more potential, but they were so thoroughly uninteresting that I gotta give it to the Sheikah. It felt like they actually served a purpose in the worldbuilding and the story, with the incredible advances in technology quickly shifting from a luxury to a threat fitting in very well with the overconfidence and downfall of Hyrule, which in turn helped accentuate the quiet regret of BotW. The Zonai did none of that, they just kinda exist as an ethereal entity with magic powers for seemingly no reason. There is no storyline with the secret stones, they’re just magic doodads that happen to fall into the wrong hands.

Not to say that the Sheikah is perfect, they’re still fairly whatever, but their integration felt a lot more purposeful than the Zonai’s did.
 
The development conversation was interesting, about how the Zonai's background had to change because the gameplay was shifting

The Zonai were originally intended to be a highly magical culture with no technology. The device system was intended to be a magic system, with the battery as the magic meter. But the design of the various components became more and more analogs for technological things so that players could understand them, which lead to changing Zonai history.
Yep. This lack of care to the lore is one of the reasons I don't feel to connected to the new games.
I'd prefer them to hold Zonai to be used later(or keep their mistery) and create a new race for this game than kind of ruins one of my favorite worldbuilding aspect of BOTW.

Though I'm not fan of the gameplay first approach for Zelda series. Imo gameplay should always be great but it needs to serve the "Legend" part.
 
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Honestly, my opinion of the Zonai depends on if the founding era in the game is the original Hyrule (post-Skyward Sword) or the founding of the current iteration of Hyrule (post-most other games). If it’s the former, it’s honestly too much of a retcon for me to accept and I don’t like the other implications it carries for previous games. If it’s the latter, I love it, Hyrule keeps going through time with wondrous new things continuing to happen, and fits with the series theme of Hyrule continuing to reinvent itself and change over time.

The Sheikah can work either way, though I was surprised the series now considers them a subset of Hylians rather than a unique people.
 
I'm fine with the Zonai being a one off lore thing while the Shiekah remain an ongoing mystery throughout the series.
 
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The development conversation was interesting, about how the Zonai's background had to change because the gameplay was shifting

The Zonai were originally intended to be a highly magical culture with no technology. The device system was intended to be a magic system, with the battery as the magic meter. But the design of the various components became more and more analogs for technological things so that players could understand them, which lead to changing Zonai history.
I don't think it changed the history so much as it looks more technological than originally intended. It's still magic.

Anyway, I like both, but I think I'd give the nod to the Zonai. The Sheikah have the benefit of having been established for a much longer time, we've obviously been waiting much longer to learn more about them than the Zonai, and I think the Sheikah from Breath of the Wild actually do seem like a more natural progression of the ones from previous games than it may seem at first glance. Before BotW fans focused a lot on the ninja aspect because that's cool, but the idea of them as engineers/researchers/an intellectual class in general was actually present from the beginning too. Gossip Stones are like a more primitive form of Guidance Stones and the Sheikah Slate, being able to take in information and parse it for human consumption, Robbie was even able to give one more of a personality much the same way the Gossip Stones are a little more informal. The Shadow Temple is lit with blue flame throughout much of the dungeon, and is the most "industrial"-looking of all the Ocarina of Time dungeons, with rivets, wheels, pullies, chains, etc. throughout, whereas a lot of the other dungeons in the game just have the more "inexplicable floating platform" type of machinery that doesn't even seem like technology a lot of the time. Characters like the Composer Brothers, who seem to be Sheikah since they were born in Kakariko instead of moving there when Impa opened the village, are trying to scientifically analyze the mystical powers of the Royal Family. They're also more generally the lore keepers of Hyrule, with knowledge of the Master Sword and Triforce.

But even though I've just been giving props to the Sheikah's portrayal in Breath of the Wild, I still think the Zonai are a little more interesting. The primary reason for this is the fact that the lore surrounding them isn't as laser-focused (pun intended) as the Sheikah lore is. In Breath of the Wild, we're told the Sheikah had brought Hyrulean society to the point where monster attacks weren't a problem, but other than that everything we learn about them is based around opposing the Calamity. We almost never stumble upon Sheikah ruins that seem to have some other purpose, every shrine, divine beast, and tower was put there expressly for the purpose of fighting the Great Calamity when it happened or to train Champions to fight the Calamity. Some of the details surrounding that are pretty cool, I love the sokushinbutsu references and the idea that they received a divine revelation to do this stuff, it plays into the theme of service and devotion that the Sheikah are often connected with in a cool way, but it still feels less like relics of a whole civilization and more about things designed for one purpose. The one exception to that is the Sanctum in Hyrule Castle having a Sheikah astral observatory beneath it, which is a really cool bit of environmental storytelling, but it's the only glimpse into their overall society I can think of.

On the other hand, with the Zonai it feels more like we're excavating pieces of the society as a whole, of Hyrule at it's founding and the Zonai and Hylian tribes which predate it, and we're still not getting the whole picture but we're getting a lot of tantalizing glimpses of different facets of them. We find structures with different uses in all three layers of Hyrule, some spiritual and some practical, some of the Zonai devices have lore attached to them explaining what they were used for in ancient times, each tribe of Hyrule seems to have had a different connection to the ancient Zonai and Hylians, and even the remnants of the Imprisoning War aren't all uniform, they reflect different perspectives on the same era. There's more of a suggestion of a full picture, but also more mystery, attached to the ancient Zonai/Hyrulean relics in comparison to that of the Sheikah in Breath of the Wild. Plus, I think those who are calling it a retcon are massively exaggerating. If anything, they managed to synthesize a number of things from previous games into something that feels more cohesive than ever.
 
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I don't remember anything interesting about the Sheikah but the Zonai let me build rocket cars, so that gets my vote
 
The development conversation was interesting, about how the Zonai's background had to change because the gameplay was shifting

The Zonai were originally intended to be a highly magical culture with no technology. The device system was intended to be a magic system, with the battery as the magic meter. But the design of the various components became more and more analogs for technological things so that players could understand them, which lead to changing Zonai history.
oh my god this makes so much sense, you can really feel how jarring that is in the game

if all the cool components were like… forged of magic, and looked like they were constructs of light, and then you could mix them with like wagon wheels etc… that would honestly have made more sense and forgiven some of the narrative sins i’m struggling with
 
Gameplay-wise, the Zonai of course.

Lore-wise... I liked the Zonai, but there was a disconnection between how they were portrayed in BotW and in TotK. TotK acknowledges this, saying that the ruins in the Fairon region predate those from the Sky. Still, what we have are basically different clans with different cultures sharing the same name. The tribal Zonai from BotK were fascinating, and sadly they were unexplored by TotK. On the other hand, I think they portrayed the Sheikah more consistently and managed to build on the lore of past games. We also actually meet some Sheikahs, and we had a fun rivalry with the Yiga.

Honestly, my opinion of the Zonai depends on if the founding era in the game is the original Hyrule (post-Skyward Sword) or the founding of the current iteration of Hyrule (post-most other games). If it’s the former, it’s honestly too much of a retcon for me to accept and I don’t like the other implications it carries for previous games. If it’s the latter, I love it, Hyrule keeps going through time with wondrous new things continuing to happen, and fits with the series theme of Hyrule continuing to reinvent itself and change over time.

The Sheikah can work either way, though I was surprised the series now considers them a subset of Hylians rather than a unique people.
I think the Zonai works with the existing series' lore. We know very little of the era post-SS and pre-MC. And they 100% fit the "Sky People" description from Twilight Princess.
ボクが今、一番 興味を持っているのは 天空人の伝説さ
What I'm currently most interested in, is the legend of the sky people.

ハイラルは最も神に近い種族のハイリア人が創ったってのが通説だけど
The common opinion is that Hyrule was created by the Hylians, the race closest to the gods, but…

実は大昔には、ハイリア人よりもっと神に近い種族がいて、彼らが創った という説もあるんだ
…truth be told, there's also a theory saying that in ancient times there was a race even closer to the gods than the Hylians, and THEY created it.
NoA made some assumptions and translated "Sky People" with "Oocca", unambiguously linking the name to the chickens, but the original Japanese text is more open to interpretation (besides, the City in the Sky is clearly built for human-like people). They also mistranslated "created Hyrule" with "created the Hylians".

The design of ancient technology we saw in TP and WW is also very close to that of Zonai. To be fair, this could be a coincidence, whereas I believe the reference to TP Sky People was deliberate (it just fits too well).
 
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oh my god this makes so much sense, you can really feel how jarring that is in the game

if all the cool components were like… forged of magic, and looked like they were constructs of light, and then you could mix them with like wagon wheels etc… that would honestly have made more sense and forgiven some of the narrative sins i’m struggling with
The narrative doesn't bother me so much as the repeat of the "Ancient tech" theme from before. Aonuma gets a little snarky about "magic" in the game looking like an electric house fan. But it's the classic design follows from mechanics, and narrative comes after Nintendo approach
 
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Honestly I think they should have just expanded on the Sheikah concept, very weird to introduce this hyper-advanced, mysterious shadowy precursor tribe that are already established in the lore, and then have them replaced by another one who are...pretty soulless? Bad decision all around.
 
Honestly I think they should have just expanded on the Sheikah concept, very weird to introduce this hyper-advanced, mysterious shadowy precursor tribe that are already established in the lore, and then have them replaced by another one who are...pretty soulless? Bad decision all around.
I would also be happier with this. Maybe Sheikah responsible for the devices and Zonai for the ultrahand glue magic.
 
The Sheikah have been a concept in the series since OOT, finally getting to not only see an actual village of them, but also learning they were once super super advanced was more interesting than the Zonai. The overall world building and theming of them was better too, and we had an actual natural reason for their disappearance rather than the Zonai disappearing for the sake of disappearing.
 
The Zonai had more potential, but they were so thoroughly uninteresting that I gotta give it to the Sheikah. It felt like they actually served a purpose in the worldbuilding and the story, with the incredible advances in technology quickly shifting from a luxury to a threat fitting in very well with the overconfidence and downfall of Hyrule, which in turn helped accentuate the quiet regret of BotW. The Zonai did none of that, they just kinda exist as an ethereal entity with magic powers for seemingly no reason. There is no storyline with the secret stones, they’re just magic doodads that happen to fall into the wrong hands.

Not to say that the Sheikah is perfect, they’re still fairly whatever, but their integration felt a lot more purposeful than the Zonai’s did.
Yeah this fits the best with what I think. Neither are honestly that impressive from a lore perspective, but BoTW definitely does more with the Sheikah than ToTK does with the Zonai

Sheikah are better from an aesthetic perspective for me, Zonai have cooler gameplay
 
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Zonai.

We know they are from the sky, but why are they descend down to Hyrule? Why did they decide to help people in Hyrule? Where are they now? We know they disappear but what does that really mean? Did they leave or did they just die out?

Like I like Sheikah, but we know them for so long, we know some of them splitted to follow Ganon and become Yiga, they were once super advance but learning that it was influenced by the Zonai (and probably inherence from them) actually made Zonai even more interesting cause how advance Zonai even are?

Yes, we don't see much Zonai back in the old day, but these questions make me more interested.
 
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Honestly neither were all that fleshed out, Zonai is better I guess, but its extra relevance is pretty much in cutscenes and the goat man who show up like 3 times in the current time. I suppose the dragon forms come from Zonai magic stuff, so thats something.
 
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TotK handled the lore of both pretty terribly. I kinda hoped that with the retcon of making the Zonai more technologically advanced and with the association of Mineru being a sort of researcher/engineer/symbol of wisdom there’d be some sort of Sheikah sage in the story (Paya?) to connect the two, but it never ended up happening. The complete disappearance of nearly all Sheikah tech from BotW with no explanation was very jarring and a huge missed opportunity given that this is is set in the same world with the same characters. It would’ve been interesting to have the Divine Beasts reawaken in the depths or at least have them parked in storage under Hyrule Castle as an easter egg or something.

The Zonai suffer from the lack of any attempt to make them fit into the series lore, even the game’s direct predecessor’s. No attempt is made to connect their secret stones, or their animal insignia, or Rauru’s light power to the Triforce that appears at the end of BotW, which (presumably) Zelda holds as his direct descendant. Enemy constructs existing throughout the world for “defense” of barren sky islands or the dungeons that are only tangentially related to the Zonai are less compelling than guardians possessed by Calamity Ganon or the mini guardians used strictly within shrines as deliberate test props. Shrines of Light resemble Sheikah Shrines far too much to simply be a way for Rauru to store monsters. Why are there puzzles in there and where are the monsters they’re storing? How do the overworld dragons relate to the secret stones?

Overall I’d say that while the Sheikah are mysterious in BotW they’re at least internally consistent with the world in a way that I enjoyed a lot more.
 
The presence and backstory of the Sheikah in BotW never really gelled with me and it didn't make much sense that they were a technologically hyper-advanced tribe that was exiled scattered by the king of Hyrule and basically formed two branches that persisted for 10'000 years with practically none of the tech surviving. The introduction of the Zonai at least helped recontextualize this for me, in the sense that this constant cycle of progress and decline and the "history" only surviving as relics and legends to be uncovered is the driving force of this interpretation of Hyrule. Also, I much prefer the Zonai aesthetically so that's a plus.
 
Ehh, the Zonai robots are too videogame-y or 80s movie robot for me to really get away with them

I love how so many of the shrine names in these games sound like rejected Ikea product names
 
Zonai were handled very badly, honestly. There's very little lore for them, and the story sets them up at the start as a mystery with Zelda being a nerd about the mural, but then goes on to not actually answer any questions beyond "Raru and Mineru were around in the past"
 
I was dissapointed with the Zonai. However I do not entirely like either of them. They went overboard with the "EVERYTHING IS ZONAI/SHEIKAH AND THE REMNANTS ARE EVERYWHERE" At least I think for the Zonai makes more sense? because they were basically colonizers.

But it's very, very weird how in the old Zelda games there are no sheikah people anymore save for one or two individuals but suddenly now they are everywhere and are the most important people in history, ever. It's not entirely implausible for that to happen, of course, given the huge time difference. But it always seemed out of place to me.
 
And while I liked the blue tech-heavy Sheikah theme, I think the mystical green Zonai theme is cooler.

Zonai shrine blessings are ++lovely, although I sincerely miss the Hyrule map being dotted with the orange (then blueorange, then blue) of the sheikah shrines. Something about the way their light pierces gloomy weather (and the guardians too) that really hits inside.
 
I guess Zonai, but not because any lore implications. It's just fun seeing a new Zelda race, which, considering it's a sequel game, I didn't expect to see at all.
 
0
I mean, between "old guys that made shrines and a robot elephant" and "old DRAGONS who made shrines and LOONEY TUNES ACME ITEMS" the dragons are going to win pretty easily.
 
For me each Zelda game is basically separate, I completely ignore the retro-fitted chronology.

BOTW -> TOTK is the only time I know of where we have a direct sequel where "lore" that should be continuous is present (maybe also Majora's Mask?), but as far as I can tell it makes no sense at all that the Sheikah shrines and guardians are all gone and we suddenly have sky islands and Zonai shrines.

A clean "lore" break in the next game is really needed so they don't have to work around a bunch of story rules that interfere with making a game.
 
I'm just giving my opinion without reading any other posts and basically the first thought I have:

Sheikah at one point were really interesting to me because of the "hidden lore" Zeltik & Co dug up. They have always been a mysterious race and that increased with Twilight princess giving birth to the idea that the Twilii might have actually been the banished Sheikah. We got small bits of lore and those small bits were really satisfying, that was... Until...

... BotW and TotK however really destroyed any interest for both the Zonai and Sheikah to me, the whole story of both games never struck me and naturally I never liked the Zonai because of that. I think the whole Zelda universe could do without the Zonai to be honest.

Both BotW and TotK made me confused and dissatisfied with its story, I've lost the interest for any lore because of that.

So for me the Sheikah win but only because I think they were still interesting at one point in time before BotW and TotK.

Masthead_Sheik.17345b1513ac044897cfc243542899dce541e8dc.9afde10b.png
 
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Probably neither because nintendos gameplay first mindset (which I love, by the way) basically prevents them from delving too deep into interesting or consistent lore. I don’t have a problem with that. In fact, I like it because otherwise we may not have gotten all the fun stuff we got in totk. But at the end of the day, I can’t care about Zelda lore because it’s gonna twist and change at the whims of whatever new gameplay idea they have. I will say that I like the zonai stuff more aesthetically, and I like that they’re a whole new type of creature like Gorons or zoras and not just old hylians.
 
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Shiekah. There previous involvement in the series helps. Their past with hyrule was established before BOTW. Their lore was interesting and mysterious. Zonai was mysterious in BOTW, TOTK goes too far.... They're literally from the heavens and have been a part of hyrule the whole time? Cool, but they just gave none answers and it seems cheap and forced.
 
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Sheikah due to the history with the series and that they are still an extremely mysterious group that predate Hyrule. Though the modern Sheikah in BotW/TotK aren't especially interesting, I didn't find the Zonai to be particularly compelling. I would've liked to see more of their era/the founding of Hyrule but then again in ToTK we essentially see the Zonai go extinct so it's not like it was their heyday or anything.
 
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For me each Zelda game is basically separate, I completely ignore the retro-fitted chronology.
My sentiments exactly. Even with TOTK, that’s a direct sequel to BOTW. Tears feels like a 1.5 type or sequel:
• Its a continuation, a number two;
• But it feels self contained sometimes (minus 0.5);
• Giving us a 1.5: a direct sequel that can play self contained

Even the FINAL FANTASY XIII Trilogy felt more sequel-ish and more interconnected than BOTW-TOTK
 
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Although I love the Zonai aesthetics, compared to the Sheikah they felt more like a bolted-on "mysterious old civilisation" in the way they were implemented.

The Sheikah motif feels integral to BotW's setting. Monks, Towers, Guardians, Labs, Flames, Divine Beasts, Kakariko Village, 10.000 Years Ago, Ganon having a relationship to them, Robbie and Purah being Sheikah and researching them... The Sheikah gave BotW's Hyrule so much grounding and flavour.

The Zonai, in comparison, had promise as a contrasting civilisation with the mystique around them in BotW. Unfortunately, they don't really fit into that world to me and it never clicked. They feel bolted on. Perhaps this is due to how much they act as a one-to-one Sheikah stand-in: Sheikah/Zonai shrines, Sheikah/Zonai robots, Sheikah/Zonai dungeons. It makes it feel so artificial. Or how we only see two actual Zonai, don't really get to know them and don't know where the other Zonai went or came from, which makes them feel inconsequential as a result.
 
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For me each Zelda game is basically separate, I completely ignore the retro-fitted chronology.

BOTW -> TOTK is the only time I know of where we have a direct sequel where "lore" that should be continuous is present (maybe also Majora's Mask?), but as far as I can tell it makes no sense at all that the Sheikah shrines and guardians are all gone and we suddenly have sky islands and Zonai shrines.

A clean "lore" break in the next game is really needed so they don't have to work around a bunch of story rules that interfere with making a game.
I think that BOTW and TOTK chose to reference the old games in the worst way as possible. Everything from old games(lore wise) feels like fan service. I really like the elegant way they did this on WW and TP.

The only lore reference to the series I like is the BOTW scene where Zelda shows the triforce. A small scene that provoke thoughts and doesn’t contradict whatever came before.

At least on BOTW I could pretend the items from old games were non canon amiibo only cosmetic, like the switch shirt.
 
0
Sheikah easily. What they did with the Zonai and the lore implications it had for the entire series with all the retcons was honestly bad.
 
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