Good options.Rhythm games. Also adventure and visual novel.
Exactly.It’s way past time for a rhythm game fighter. Give us Chorus Kids already!!
I suppose.... IIIIIII SUP-POSE - hi!It’s way past time for a rhythm game fighter. Give us Chorus Kids already!!
Sadly I worry that as long as online play has lag, we’ll never get a proper rhythm-based fighter in Smash. I’m pretty sure that’s likely the reason why the Rhythm Heaven fighter (known to be specifically Chorus Kids from the Gematsu leak) was scrapped in Smash for 3DS/Wii U in the first place (timed inputs combined with musical cues would fall out of sync with online lag, making a rhythm-based fighter practically unplayable), and why Sakurai didn’t return to the concept in Ultimate despite reviving other originally planned content like Chrom (was seemingly initially planned for 3DS/Wii U before Robin replaced him), Swapnote/Nikki (datamines show that a Swapnote stage was planned for 3DS/Wii U but was scrapped, possibly being turned into PictoChat 2 instead), Sukapon (was planned to be an item in Melee), and Ditto (was planned to be a Poké Ball Pokémon in Melee, and was partially implemented before being cut).Exactly.
Jokes aside, 4x games and rts games could have good potential for smash bros.I want to see Civilization represented by Ghandi.
I think that dr mario doesn't count.I was going to say puzzle games, until I remembered Dr. Mario. Though that's just a variation of Mario, so should he even count?
My pick goes to Lip from Panel de Pon:
Her item has been a part of Smash Bros. for decades now, and she has had Mii costume and Spirit representation. I think it's her time to be an actual fighter. It'd be interesting to see match-3 gameplay incorporated in her moveset.
Another one.Rhythm games, we need a rhythm heaven character ASAP
I would like to add pikmin as his own genre.Rhythm games could be represented by the HiFi Rush protagonist?
And visual novels by Phoenix Wright?
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I don’t know if it’s a genre, but Hideo Kojima claims that the Death Stranding games are under the Social Strand Genre. Maybe Sam can represent that genre?
finally. it’s timeAtrus from Myst, or I'm out
An excellent first selection.Rhythm games. Also adventure and visual novel.
It’s way past time for a rhythm game fighter. Give us Chorus Kids already!!
I was thinking Barista (a taunt causes adjacent fighters to stop and pet the dog) which would be a bit of a swerve from the expected, but Chorus Kids could definitely be neat.Rhythm games, we need a rhythm heaven character ASAP
Phoenix Wright has always been an inspired and fitting option, but Sakurai's choice that never actually made it into Melee was Ayumi Tachibana, and I really like that idea. But also Goku from Yūyūki.Rhythm games could be represented by the HiFi Rush protagonist?
And visual novels by Phoenix Wright?
I figure Dr. Mario, especially as his own individual fighter, would count, but in my mind he can be absorbed into Mario as an alt. Lip is, as always, a great shout out.I was going to say puzzle games, until I remembered Dr. Mario. Though that's just a variation of Mario, so should he even count?
My pick goes to Lip from Panel de Pon
He doesn't hurt people until he hits 200% damage, and then suddenly he's dropping nukes and moons on fools.I want to see Civilization represented by Ghandi.
Chorus Kids was the specific Rhythm Heaven fighter named in the Gematsu leak, and makes a lot of sense being a musical trio that can naturally set up rhythm-based attacks with both musical and visual cues (for example, when you first use a move, the two following Chorus Kids would start the attack and establish the timing, and you have to press the button again in rhythm as the third, lead Chorus Kid for the move to reach its full potential) and generally being blank slates that you could use as a canvas to represent things from across the entire series—for example, I’ve always envisioned Chorus Kids being executed somewhat similarly to Mr. Game & Watch in that other Rhythm Heaven characters and objects would appear throughout their moveset, much like how Mr. Game & Watch is an amalgamation of many different things and characters from various Game & Watch games. So characters like Barista, Karate Joe, the Wandering Samurai, Ringside Wrestler, Yuka, etc. could all potentially appear in Chorus Kids’ moveset in one way or another. Plus it also helps that Chorus Kids are the mascot of the best-selling game in the series. So yeah, I think Chorus Kids would be the best choice for Smash, not just because they were the named Rhythm Heaven fighter that was originally going to be in Smash, but also because they just make a ton of sense mechanically and thematically, too.I was thinking Barista (a taunt causes adjacent fighters to stop and pet the dog) which would be a bit of a swerve from the expected, but Chorus Kids could definitely be neat.
A rhythm based character can work as long as the online isn't terrible, but this is Namco we're talking about. I mean, look at Dee Jay in SF6. His rhythm super works even online cause the whole game plays well online. Smash Ultimate doesn't. It's not synced up to the actual stage music, but honestly I think that's smarter so you don't get counterpicked to a stage with a 200bpm song. You can make a character rhythmic without actually making them play a rhythm game. Think less Hi-Fi Rush and more Incineroar side b having consistent timing that the player learns.Sadly I worry that as long as online play has lag, we’ll never get a proper rhythm-based fighter in Smash. I’m pretty sure that’s likely the reason why the Rhythm Heaven fighter (known to be specifically Chorus Kids from the Gematsu leak) was scrapped in Smash for 3DS/Wii U in the first place (timed inputs combined with musical cues would fall out of sync with online lag, making a rhythm-based fighter practically unplayable), and why Sakurai didn’t return to the concept in Ultimate despite reviving other originally planned content like Chrom (was seemingly initially planned for 3DS/Wii U before Robin replaced him), Swapnote/Nikki (datamines show that a Swapnote stage was planned for 3DS/Wii U but was scrapped, possibly being turned into PictoChat 2 instead), Sukapon (was planned to be an item in Melee), and Ditto (was planned to be a Poké Ball Pokémon in Melee, and was partially implemented before being cut).
Even the slightest bit of lag would cause issues, though. It already does with Incineroar’s side special, and it would be much worse with a fighter whose moveset is entirely based around rhythm, especially if there’s an actual musical element to it, too. And no, I don’t mean that the moves would be synced to the stage music—that’s way too elaborate and impractical to implement.A rhythm based character can work as long as the online isn't terrible, but this is Namco we're talking about. I mean, look at Dee Jay in SF6. His rhythm super works even online cause the whole game plays well online. Smash Ultimate doesn't. It's not synced up to the actual stage music, but honestly I think that's smarter so you don't get counterpicked to a stage with a 200bpm song. You can make a character rhythmic without actually making them play a rhythm game. Think less Hi-Fi Rush and more Incineroar side b having consistent timing that the player learns.
Koei Tecmo is perhaps one of Nintendo's biggest regular supporters/collaborators that has yet to get playable representation in Smash, yet. How would I do it?
Historical-based grand strategy games has been Koei's trademark for over 40 years. That catalog likely helped them, at least in part, get that sweetheart deal to work on Nintendo's longrunning strategy series, Fire Emblem. So, I'd choose their take on Nobunaga as the way to rep both the titular Nobunaga's Ambition, as well as everything else that spun off from that (Samurai Warriors, Pokémon Conquest, etc.)
I know Ryu Hayabusa from the Tecmo side of things (Ninja Gaiden) is by far the more popular pick, and honestly hope he gets in, too. But I do think it'd be miss if you didn't let Nobunaga duel with fellow strategy game oldhead Marth, and pal around with Pikachu again.
Yeah because Smash has terrible netcode. Most current fighting games are not delay-based and work just fine, even with moves that require timing.Even the slightest bit of lag would cause issues, though. It already does with Incineroar’s side special, and it would be much worse with a fighter whose moveset is entirely based around rhythm, especially if there’s an actual musical element to it, too. And no, I don’t mean that the moves would be synced to the stage music—that’s way too elaborate and impractical to implement.
So those games have no lag at all—nothing that would desync the sound effects from the gameplay? And even if that is the case, other fighting games are very different from Smash. While most fighting games are strictly two-player with much less stuff to keep track of at once on screen, Smash is a platform fighter with tons of different items and stage effects and all that, and has to support at least four players, if not up to eight, at once. I’m not aware of any other games like it that have super smooth online play (and four-player platformers in general tend to struggle with smooth online), plus I believe Sakurai has said something about there being “sacrifices” of some sort with rollback verus delay-based or something along those lines (I don’t remember the exact quote), so I’m inclined to believe that there’s more to the issue than just “terrible netcode”.Yeah because Smash has terrible netcode. Most current fighting games are not delay-based and work just fine, even with moves that require timing.
I hate to break it to you, but all fighting games require some sort of timing. But the way rollback works is basically trying to predict what your opponent will do and rolling things back if it got it wrong, but for the upside of online feeling like offline, at least on your end of inputs unless the connection gets really bad.So those games have no lag at all—nothing that would desync the sound effects from the gameplay? And even if that is the case, other fighting games are very different from Smash. While most fighting games are strictly two-player with much less stuff to keep track of at once on screen, Smash is a platform fighter with tons of different items and stage effects and all that, and has to support at least four players, if not up to eight, at once. I’m not aware of any other games like it that have super smooth online play (and four-player platformers in general tend to struggle with smooth online), plus I believe Sakurai has said something about there being “sacrifices” of some sort with rollback verus delay-based or something along those lines (I don’t remember the exact quote), so I’m inclined to believe that there’s more to the issue than just “terrible netcode”.
This , or Zagreus if he was still prominent to the storyMelinoë from Hades 2 is a good fit for this topic as long as she's a good character and the game is good.
I’m aware that any fighting game is going to have some degree of timing, as is also the case with Smash, but even so, Smash works fine enough as is online even with lag (not to say that it’s perfect by any means, but, like, no fighter is just unplayable online or anything like that). Certain moves, like Incineroar’s side special, don’t work so well when there’s lag, and it’s obviously not great for combos, but fortunately Smash isn’t a combo-heavy game and that’s virtually a non-issue to casual players. But, again, a character whose entire moveset is comprised of rhythm-based moves like Incineroar’s side special, while also incorporating musical sound effects used to set the rhythmic timing that will desync from the gameplay when any lag is introduced, is going to be a much worse issue. Could it be fixed with rollback instead of delay-based netcode? I don’t know, maybe? You’ve not really answered the question of whether rollback games have any lag at all or not (I’m guessing they can still have lag though since you seemed to imply lag will still happen if a connection is bad), and I’m not super familiar with rollback myself, so I really don’t know if that would solve the musical rhythm-based move issue (again, not just something that’s rhythmic to on-screen visuals, but also to musical sound effects at the same time, which both need to be kept in sync). But yes, I’m sure rollback would be better overall not just for a Rhythm Heaven fighter but also for Smash in general…again, assuming rollback is realistically able to be implemented in Smash without other issues. You’ve identified at least one issue already with the zoom-in stuff, and there could be more—I’d expect that to be the case if Sakurai seems to think it’s a significant enough reason to stick with delay-based over rollback, so there are probably other issues that we naturally aren’t privy to. It’d probably be easier to implement with just 1-on-1, no items, “For Glory”-style matches, sure, but would going with an entirely different netcode for just a single type of online play and doing something different for everything else (assuming there are issues with implementing rollback for other styles) even be a viable thing to do?I hate to break it to you, but all fighting games require some sort of timing. But the way rollback works is basically trying to predict what your opponent will do and rolling things back if it got it wrong, but for the upside of online feeling like offline, at least on your end of inputs unless the connection gets really bad.
The sacrifice Ultimate, and specifically Ultimate, would probably have to make is the zoom in on special moves like Falcon Punch or Ridley skewer and killing blows, because if the game guessed wrong on that happening, that would entirely fuck things up. It's why the camera spin on KOs is missing from Lethal League Blaze online. This is usually seen with older fighting games using rollback at low health sometimes prematurely saying "KO" when one doesn't happen.
But as it stands, the standard of delay based netcode messes with timing way more than a rollback solution ever would, as lag spikes mess with timing much more when the game freezes rather than continues with what was already pressed. Combos in of themselves are rhythmic. This would not just be a problem with a rhythm character in Smash, it will continue to be a problem unless Smash steps up it's netcode. If F-Zero can have 99 players accounted for with rollback, Smash can have 4. You can't even use 8 players online, I'd be totally fine if "For Glory" returned and had rollback due to not having to account for 4 players and items.
Audio does not ever get rolled back, but if you are playing a rhythm based character, you would just have to do what the game expects, which should be fine on your end because your inputs are being handled locally and then sent online, instead of waiting for the online. Your opponent is rolling back on your end, your inputs are basically offline. Your timing would be perfectly fine if it used the new standard of netcode. Rollback matches can only get delayed in extreme cases, and I mean EXTREME. Where as with delay that is just an inevitability that will affect every single match, even in optimal conditions.I’m aware that any fighting game is going to have some degree of timing, as is also the case with Smash, but even so, Smash works fine enough as is online even with lag (not to say that it’s perfect by any means, but, like, no fighter is just unplayable online or anything like that). Certain moves, like Incineroar’s side special, don’t work so well when there’s lag, and it’s obviously not great for combos, but fortunately Smash isn’t a combo-heavy game and that’s virtually a non-issue to casual players. But, again, a character whose entire moveset is comprised of rhythm-based moves like Incineroar’s side special, while also incorporating musical sound effects used to set the rhythmic timing that will desync from the gameplay when any lag is introduced, is going to be a much worse issue. Could it be fixed with rollback instead of delay-based netcode? I don’t know, maybe? You’ve not really answered the question of whether rollback games have any lag at all or not (I’m guessing they can still have lag though since you seemed to imply lag will still happen if a connection is bad), and I’m not super familiar with rollback myself, so I really don’t know if that would solve the musical rhythm-based move issue (again, not just something that’s rhythmic to on-screen visuals, but also to musical sound effects at the same time, which both need to be kept in sync). But yes, I’m sure rollback would be better overall not just for a Rhythm Heaven fighter but also for Smash in general…again, assuming rollback is realistically able to be implemented in Smash without other issues. You’ve identified at least one issue already with the zoom-in stuff, and there could be more—I’d expect that to be the case if Sakurai seems to think it’s a significant enough reason to stick with delay-based over rollback, so there are probably other issues that we naturally aren’t privy to.
Other platform fighters have done it, so yes. Smash's online is SO far behind other fighting games, even other platform fighters that it's the one thing I want changed in the future.It’d probably be easier to implement with just 1-on-1, no items, “For Glory”-style matches, sure, but would going with an entirely different netcode for just a single type of online play and doing something different for everything else (assuming there are issues with implementing rollback for other styles) even be a viable thing to do?
I disagree. For roguelikes, I'd have to vouch for Shiren the Wanderer. Not only have his games pioneered the roguelike genre, he had numerous games exclusive to Nintendo, one of which was even published by them. Hades was cool to get spirits for, but I don't think the series is a good fit for a fighter.Melinoë from Hades 2 is a good fit for this topic as long as she's a good character and the game is good.