Fun Club "Mario, Zelda, and _________"

[AngryAlchemist]

That's why I said it's really only good for online focused fandoms, like Fire Emblem and Metroid tend to be. Most of Mario's fandom aren't going on reddit, at least not for gaming.

On the topic of game sales, Fire Emblem Awakening was huge on the 3DS, it was Fire Emblem's Dread. It single handedly saved the franchise in the western market, despite being on the 3DS and the hurdles that came alongside the early days of that platform. Dread on the other hand came in at a time that Nintendo is at an all time high, their games are breaking franchise records left and right. The fact that it reached 3M+ is great, but comparing that 3M on a 100M install base to a game that did around 1.9M with half that isn't a solid metric either.

I get what you're saying and I don't think we even disagree that much. I do think Fire Emblem is more popular. But the defense of it being "much more popular" isn't great, especially when using Reddit users of all things. Pretty sure industry analysts from both NPD and the U.K. have also commented multiple times on how people misuse the install base argument in such a way. Either way both the original Metroid and Metroid Prime (on a system that sold way worse than the 3DS) outsold Awakening. It's actually Fates which is the second best selling FE - but it's a bit of a weird once since its figure includes the Revelations DLC, so it's hard to tell what the actual sales are.

Again, I do think FE is more popular, so it's probably best to just end it at that. But these arguments for it being much more popular just aren't compelling. Both series are tapping out at about 3-4+ million, which is good. But also Prime 4 will most likely be much more popular than Dread.

 

[meatbag]

It’s Pokemon. How could it not be Pokemon? In fact for a lot of people Nintendo is just Mario and Pokemon.

 

[Yamanoi]

If we go by actual popularity: Mario Zelda and Splatoon/Kirby/Animal Crossing

If we go by quality: Famicom Detective Club, Fire Emblem, and Panel de Pon.

 

[Mekanos]

Sure people will recognize certain elements. It still didn't spawn something like Akira which made every gaijin say "hey look Japanese animation exists and they are like cool and violent and adult and shiet." BR's influence led to people actually paying attention to and then gobbling up the pop culture of an "exotic" country that was a gazillion miles away.



You could say the same with directors loving BR. Pretty sure some of the biggest auteurs like Nolan, Cameron, or the Wachowski sisters have credited it before. It's a bit disingenuous to even jokingly attribute the MCU's success to Johnston's work for hire job. People were roped in with the first Iron Man, they barely even watched Captain America. Disney has toys to sell, they were gonna get them sold whether or not Johnston was involved and brought in his Indy love.

I think it's a stretch to say Blade Runner gets to claim credit for the proliferation of anime in the west lol. There were certainly a lot of other series and factors that had a hand in that as well as Akira, as important as that movie was.

Regardless, Indiana Jones' influence is pretty clear in video games (Pitfall, Tomb Raider, Uncharted), films (the Mummy, National Treasure), and more. That's not even to hammer in that compared to Blade Runner, it's had four movies that were big box office hits (whatever you think of the quality of the sequels, people saw them and liked them), with a fifth one coming out, and has multiple cultural touchstones that are recognizable to audiences around the world. Just look at all the hallmarks present in the Simpsons parody of Indiana Jones, even people who haven't seen the movies would recognize these:



Anyway, this tangent has gotten way off topic. And somehow has ended up becoming comparing the merits and influences of movies starring Harrison Ford.

What was I talking about? Oh yeah.

Metroid can be in this conversation when it has a game that sells more than 10 million, methinks.

 

[TheCongressman]

Pokemon is more popular than any of the other choices, but it's it's own thing in my mind. This question is about association, not popularity.

When I think of Mario and Zelda, I think of Metroid along side them.

 

[Aurc]

If we go by actual popularity: Mario Zelda and Splatoon/Kirby/Animal Crossing

If we go by quality: Famicom Detective Club, Fire Emblem, and Panel de Pon.

I take the same approach with Yakuza, tbh.

Popularity: Kiryu, Majima, Ichiban

Quality: Yamanoi, Mack, Bacchus

 

[TheSpearGuy]

Mario, Zelda and Spongebob.

 

[Yamanoi]

I take the same approach with Yakuza, tbh.

Popularity: Kiryu, Majima, Ichiban

Quality: Yamanoi, Mack, Bacchus

Thank you for appreciating my quality.

 

[Serif]

But ingenuity in game design, wider impact on the medium over a prolonged period, and critical acclaim are simply far more interesting metrics of evaluation in these discussions

I had something much more verbose typed up but lol, yes, I wanted to boost this. There's a valid reason to group these three from the lens of comparative history. Speaking as someone who has zero nostalgia for the series and having only beaten Dread.

 

[Mekanos]

WAIT

I got one more and it’s on topic

You know what else Indiana Jones influenced?

Legend Of Zelda.

Zelda’s Study: Indiana Jones inspired Miyamoto to create The Legend of Zelda series - Zelda Universe

Nintendo's franchises are so iconic and genre-defining that it's sometimes easy to forget that these trendsetters also once relied on various sources of inspiration themselves. Nintendo Producer Shigeru Miyamoto, for example, took the name "Mario" from a landlord at Nintendo Washington's...

zeldauniverse.net

 

[Aurc]

I had something much more verbose typed up but lol, yes, I wanted to boost this. There's a valid reason to group these three from the lens of comparative history. Speaking as someone who has zero nostalgia for the series and having only beaten Dread.

I think you should certainly explore the series further, once you're ready. It really is excellent. You don't need me to recommend Super and Prime, as that's what everyone else will suggest, but Zero Mission, Samus Returns, and Fusion are also great for relative newcomers looking to expand their grasp. Glad some of these are being made available via the Switch now.

 

[AtomicZach]

But ingenuity in game design, wider impact on the medium over a prolonged period, and critical acclaim are simply far more interesting metrics of evaluation in these discussions, in my view, which is why I personally find it more compelling when the discussion is approached from that angle, versus putting forth a picture of Nintendo Tokyo, for example. Yes, those IPs are far more popular, and far more marketable, but (and I'm sorry if this is a tad blunt) who cares? I don't think you'll get anyone disagreeing with you on those facts, haha.

And yet if we were to argue such things, one could argue that the Mother/Earthbound series has dethroned Metroid under those criteria given that many games have been released that cite the Mother series as an inspiration and they have gone into incredible success, critical acclaim, and cultural impact.

 

[Serif]

I think you should certainly explore the series further, once you're ready. It really is excellent. You don't need me to recommend Super and Prime, as that's what everyone else will suggest, but Zero Mission, Samus Returns, and Fusion are also great for newcomers. Glad some of these are being made available via the Switch now.

I have Prime pre ordered, am halfway(?) through Super, just started II and am waiting on the rest to come to Switch. It's a good time to join the party.

Cute anecdote, my brother has been distributing and streaming his copy of AM2R, he's 13. He's converted some of his friends into Metroid fans. I had absolutely no hand in this, it's the zeitgeist.

 

[Awesomegames23]

Pokemon is its own juggernaut. I’d say the 3rd right now is Animal Crossing for most Switch owners. Metroid if I had to go by iconic character. Donkey Kong historically, but not so much in the Switch era.

 

[Clov]

If we go by actual popularity: Mario Zelda and Splatoon/Kirby/Animal Crossing

If we go by quality: Famicom Detective Club, Fire Emblem, and Panel de Pon.

Right on both counts! Amazing how perfect you got the list by quality.

 

[Serif]

And yet if we were to argue such things, one could argue that the Mother/Earthbound series has dethroned Metroid under those criteria given that many games have been released that cite the Mother series as an inspiration and they have gone into incredible success, critical acclaim, and cultural impact.

I don't know, I think the Metroidvania umbrella dwarfs the Mother-likes e.g. LISA, Undertale, Omori. Unless I'm undercounting the quantity of games you say cite the Mother games as inspiration.

 

[Aurc]

And yet if we were to argue such things, one could argue that the Mother/Earthbound series has dethroned Metroid under those criteria given that many games have been released that cite the Mother series as an inspiration and they have gone into incredible success, critical acclaim, and cultural impact.

Absolutely! Sure. That makes sense. I'd rather see folks abide by their own criteria, and provide their reasoning for it, versus just listing the top three best-selling Switch IPs off a Wikipedia page. There's not much of a conversation to be had there.

I've only played the fan translation of Mother 3, but I thought it was really good! I wish Nintendo would throw the series / fans a bone.

I have Prime pre ordered, am halfway(?) through Super, just started II and am waiting on the rest to come to Switch. It's a good time to join the party.

Cute anecdote, my brother has been distributing and streaming his copy of AM2R, he's 13. He's converted some of his friends into Metroid fans. I had absolutely no hand in this, it's the zeitgeist.

Your brother is awesome. Glad to hear of the younger crowd getting into Metroid! Good for it to have a reach that extends beyond Nintendo boomers like me. AM2R is phenomenal, and every bit as good as an official title, in my opinion. I prefer it over Samus Returns.

 

[AtomicZach]

I don't know, I think the Metroidvania umbrella dwarfs the Mother-likes e.g. LISA, Undertale, Omori. Unless I'm undercounting the quantity of games you say cite the Mother games as inspiration.

Only because Mother-likes have only just gotten into prominence recently. And yet nearly all of them have been incredibly well received, some reaching heights other titles could only dream of. And not just in popularity either.

Absolutely! Sure. That makes sense. I'd rather see folks abide by their own criteria, and provide their reasoning for it, versus just listing the top three best-selling Switch IPs off a Wikipedia page. There's not much of a conversation to be had there.

I've only played the fan translation of Mother 3, but I thought it was really good! I wish Nintendo would throw the series / fans a bone.

Mother 3 probably won't ever get translated given some of the content even at the time is highly questionable.

Quite frankly, my problem with these lists is that in assume that that more time = good. That franchises that are older are automatically better than franchises that are younger. Another franchise that I could argue that belongs in the big three for instance is Splatoon. And sales have very little to do with it. It's distinctive artstyle has left an impression on people. And it's old enough to cause nostalgia. Just look at Splatoon fans over the DLC news versus people here. I saw a lot of people absolutely loving the ultimately cosmetic Inkopolis Wave 1 DLC because it reminded them of their younger years and gave them a chance to experience it again on a system they own. And that's franchises that are seen as "real games". Another franchise I could say could arguably belong in the top 3 are the Mii games. Not in "sales" but the fact that they have become iconic in ways very few avatar models have. There's a reason why games such as Tomadachi Life and Tomadachi Quest are popular, the Miis's take on avatars in its own way are very influential.

 

[curl-6]

Pokemon in the streets, Donkey Kong in the sheets

 

[chocolate_supra]

I'm kinda blown away that the question of "what comes to mind for you" so quickly turned into "what series deserves to be in this slot based on sales data or overall popularity and cultural influence and btw people saying niche games come to mind for them are wrong."

Kinda.. dizzying, tbh

 

[Wockio]

Animal Crossing. Pokemon marches to the beat of its own drum.

 

[Pennington]

"Mario, Zelda and absolutely nothing else!"
- Alph

 

[SiG]

I'm kinda blown away that the question of "what comes to mind for you" so quickly turned into "what series deserves to be in this slot based on sales data or overall popularity and cultural influence and btw people saying niche games come to mind for them are wrong."

Kinda.. dizzying, tbh

"It's a social experiment!"

 

[PixelKnight]

here's an assertion: the gulf in relevance between Mario and Zelda is comparable to that between Zelda and Metroid

I think I’d agree with this for the first 30 years of Mario/Zelda games, but the gap has closed a bit with the Switch as BOTW jumped to 30m+ sales and still being the game that defines it, generating way more discussion than Mario Odyssey due to its realisation of its exploration, physics and experimentation.

A lot of this comes down to criteria. People tend to choose three things in the same way we say ‘xyz’, three is a nice number. In the same way a triforce is.

If it’s sales or cultural relevance, it’s Mario/Pokemon long before Zelda, but Zelda‘s trappings (link’s hat, the triforce, hylian crest etc) are still pretty iconic. And for years Zelda has kinda been the flagship of ‘that Nintendo franchise that people who like big AAA action games also like’. It’s an odd way of putting it, I admit, but I can’t think of another way to say it.

If it’s influence on game design or critical acclaim, I’d say Mario/Metroid/Zelda, but the last two with the gear gating are closer than they appear at first.

Mario is such a juggernaut though when Nintendo apply the cast to everything, by the time you’re adding up Mario platformers, Kart, all the sports games, RPGs, it’s hundreds of games on top of being the face of the company, with a sub series like Mario Kart able to make a case to be in the list on it’s own.

 

[DenkeyKong]

____ Luigi

 

[Eclissi]

A few years ago I would have said Metroid, and I'm saying it again today for obvious reasons. But until a few days ago I would have said Xenoblade which however is absent in the survey.

 

[SiG]

A few years ago I would have said Metroid, and I'm saying it again today for obvious reasons. But until a few days ago I would have said Xenoblade which however is absent in the survey.

I honestly wanted to add Xenoblade and Star Fox to the survey, but thought "nobody would respond with those questions now..."

I should have known better.

 

[Aurc]

I'm kinda blown away that the question of "what comes to mind for you" so quickly turned into "what series deserves to be in this slot based on sales data or overall popularity and cultural influence and btw people saying niche games come to mind for them are wrong."

Kinda.. dizzying, tbh

It's an inherently subjective premise for a thread, and as such, I believe it should be met with answers from the heart! If raw numbers were a primary allure for me (not just in gaming, but any medium), I'd have watched the Avatar sequel by now.

 

[GamerJM]

Metroid. Not because it's my third favorite. Not because it's the third best selling. Not because it's the third "most important". It's not any of those.

It's because we're on a forum, and Mario, Zelda, and Metroid have always been the holy trinity of Nintendo on gaming forums dating back to the Gamecube era. The three franchises even non-Nintendo fans always cared about, and the three Nintendo franchises the gaming press covered the most. Or at least they were for at least a decade before Metroid fans started getting pissed off at the then-current state of the series and people realized Pokemon is more important by every metric and then some people started putting it there instead.

 

[Mekanos]

Metroid. Not because it's my third favorite. Not because it's the third best selling. Not because it's the third "most important". It's not any of those.

It's because we're on a forum, and Mario, Zelda, and Metroid have always been the holy trinity of Nintendo on gaming forums dating back to the Gamecube era. The three franchises even non-Nintendo fans always cared about, and the three Nintendo franchises the gaming press covered the most. Or at least they were for at least a decade before Metroid fans started getting pissed off at the then-current state of the series and people realized Pokemon is more important by every metric and then some people started putting it there instead.

I'm officially declaring war on the coobers

 

[Dusa]

I'm gonna comment that it's really funny that we got a second thread where OP understates the cultural relevance of newer IPs and overstates the cultural relevance of older IPs lmao

Anyway it's Pokemon, and it's not even a buzzer beater. In fact it's Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda, in that order. Metroid is only the third series for Nintendo superfans, but like, to normal people, they wouldn't know what Metroid is

 

[SiG]

I'm gonna comment that it's really funny that we got a second thread where OP understates the cultural relevance of newer IPs and overstates the cultural relevance of older IPs lmao

Anyway it's Pokemon, and it's not even a buzzer beater. In fact it's Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda, in that order. Metroid is only the third series for Nintendo superfans, but like, to normal people, they wouldn't know what Metroid is

Actually for a time, there was a moment where it was mainly "Mario, Zelda, and Metroid", but the sentiment sort of disappeared around the 3DS/WiiU era...

 

[Dusa]

Actually for a time, there was a moment where it was mainly "Mario, Zelda, and Metroid", but the sentiment sort of disappeared around the 3DS/WiiU era...

Nah, that was only for a few years during the GameCube/GBA era tbh.

 

[SiG]

Nah, that was only for a few years during the GameCube/GBA era tbh.

It persisted well into the Wii/DS era, and was sustained with the hype for Metroid Prime 3. The Trilogy collection also help keep the Metroid flame alive.

Then it was announced that Retro Studios was handling Donkey Kong and things changed. Metroid Other M came along and nearly killed the franchise as well. Federation Force did not help it's reputation....

 

[Dusa]

It persisted well into the Wii/DS era, and was sustained with the hype for Metroid Prime 3. The Trilogy collection also help keep the Metroid flame alive.

Then it was announced that Retro Studios was handling Donkey Kong and things changed. Metroid Other M came along and nearly killed the franchise as well. Federation Force did not help it's reputation....

I mean, "keep[ing] the Metroid flame alive" isn't how I'd describe the third pillar of Nintendo though lol

 

[SiG]

I mean, "keep[ing] the Metroid flame alive" isn't how I'd describe the third pillar of Nintendo though lol

It did help tremendously with its exposure, but by then people were wanting a new Metroid game already.

...Then Metroid Other M came along and nearly killed the franchise. Federation Force did not help it's reputation, either...and Metroid became a footnote as a NintendoLand attraction.

The franchise remained dormant for most of 3DS'/WiiU's lifecycle. It wasn't untill Nintendo announced Metroid Prime 4 and the then later announced the MercurySteam made Samus Returns that they tried to reignite it, but it's timing with ASMR and the bitter taste they left with Federation Force felt too-little, too late by some.

So yeah, for a time, thatphrase meant "Mario, Zelda and Metroid", but Pokemon has proven to be the consistent seller each generation, while Metroid fell into a languish post-Other M.

Don't forget that various Metroid spin-offs were made during the Wii/DS era, like Metroid Prime Pinball and Metroid Prime Hunters, abeit all using the Prime moniker, so there was this anticipation that Nintendo was raising Metroid to be their tentpole "3rd pillar".

 

[Dusa]

It did help tremendously with its exposure, but by then people were wanting a new Metroid game already.

...Then Metroid Other M came along and nearly killed the franchise. Federation Force did not help it's reputation, either...and Metroid became a footnote as a NintendoLand attraction.

The franchise remained dormant for the most of the 3DS/WiiU lifecycle. It wasn't untill Nintendo announced Metroid Prime 4 and the then later announced the MercurySteam made Samus Returns that they tried to reignite it, but it's timing with ASMR and the bitter taste they left with Federation Force felt too-little, too late by some.

So yeah, for a time, thatphrase meant "Mario, Zelda and Metroid", but Pokemon was still the consistent seller each generation, while Metroid fell into a languish post-Other M.

Don't forget that various Metroid spin-offs were made during the Wii/DS era, like Metroid Prime Pinball, and Metroid Prime Hunters, abeit all using the Prime moniker.

Exposure? Metroid Prime Trilogy appealed to people who were already sold on Metroid. Also, Wii/DS era Metroid did not sell well. The two best-selling entries, Hunters and Corruption, sold roughly the same number of units as Echoes did, which was significantly below what Prime did. Metroid's significance as a third pillar was extremely flash-in-the-pan, and sales of Metroid games were noticeably smaller than those of Mario and Zelda.

Also, trans rights!

 

[Clov]

Also, trans rights!

 

[Aurc]

In fact it's Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda, in that order. Metroid is only the third series for Nintendo superfans, but like, to normal people, they wouldn't know what Metroid is

I'm not "normal". In fact, I'm distinctly abnormal, and cool with that!

 

[Dusa]

I'm not "normal". In fact, I'm distinctly abnormal, and cool with that!

Normal refers to the typical person, ie non-gamer, who could tell you who Pikachu, Mario, and to a lesser extent Link is (though they'll say elf or Zelda a lot), but would not be able to do the same with Samus.

 

[Aurc]

Normal refers to the typical person, ie non-gamer, who could tell you who Pikachu, Mario, and to a lesser extent Link is (though they'll say elf or Zelda a lot), but would not be able to do the same with Samus.

No lies detected, but I sure wish they knew Samus. She's cool

 

[Arrietty]

If we go by actual popularity: Mario Zelda and Splatoon/Kirby/Animal Crossing

If we go by quality: Famicom Detective Club, Fire Emblem, and Panel de Pon.

Holy shit based???? I wish that series would come back, fully intact.

 

[SiG]

Exposure? Metroid Prime Trilogy appealed to people who were already sold on Metroid. Also, Wii/DS era Metroid did not sell well. The two best-selling entries, Hunters and Corruption, sold roughly the same number of units as Echoes did, which was significantly below what Prime did. Metroid's significance as a third pillar was extremely flash-in-the-pan, and sales of Metroid games were noticeably smaller than those of Mario and Zelda.

Also, trans rights!

Metroid Prime 3 was hotly anticipated as a big system seller, but anticipation does not always means it translates into actual sales, given how the Wii also buried critically acclaimed hardcore titles like Sin & Puinishment 2. There was also the notion that Metroid Prime 3 was trying to do too much with what it had (i.e., Retro seemed to try to appeal to more of the hardcore FPS crowd, given how there were now talking sequences in Prime 3), and some felt it lost its way doing so.

Normal refers to the typical person, ie non-gamer, who could tell you who Pikachu, Mario, and to a lesser extent Link is (though they'll say elf or Zelda a lot), but would not be able to do the same with Samus.

I'd argue differently. I believe many non-gamers found Samus to be refreshing as a strong female protagonist.

But imagine having those feelings get betrayed when Other M came out...

Other M changed everything, and made a ding on an otherwise unsullied mainline game streak.

 

[Dusa]

Metroid Prime 3 was hotly anticipated as a big system seller, but anticipation does not always means it translates into actual sales, given how the Wii also buried critically acclaimed hardcore titles like Sin & Puinishment 2. There was also the notion that Metroid Prime 3 was trying to do too much with what it had (i.e., Retro seemed to try to appeal to more of the hardcore FPS crowd, given how there were now talking sequences in Prime 3), and some felt it lost its way doing so.


I'd argue differently. I believe many non-gamers found Samus to be refreshing as a strong female protagonist.

But imagine having those feelings get betrayed when Other M came out...

Other M changed everything, and made a ding on an otherwise unsullied mainline game streak.

Non-gamers didn't play Metroid Prime 3

 

[SiG]

Non-gamers didn't play Metroid Prime 3

Like I said, Metroid Prime 3 was a sort of flawed experience to begin with (i.e. it was clearly trying to be "Nintendo's Halo").

(Also I have to ask, do you hate Metroid? lol)

 

[Aurc]

Other M changed everything, and made a ding on an otherwise unsullied mainline game streak.

I think it'd be a great thing for it to be formally axed from the canon altogether!

 

[Phosphorescent Skeleton]

Like I said, Metroid Prime 3 was a sort of flawed experience to begin with (i.e. it was clearly trying to be "Nintendo's Halo").

(Also I have to ask, do you hate Metroid? lol)

Metroid is cool. Part of what makes it cool is that it isn't super popular. This is something you realize when you become cool. Also I hate Metroid Prime 3.

 

[Arrietty]

Like I said, Metroid Prime 3 was a sort of flawed experience to begin with (i.e. it was clearly trying to be "Nintendo's Halo").

(Also I have to ask, do you hate Metroid? lol)

Last I recall Dusa likes Metroid??

Like I do kinda agree with them, though. Metroid isn't really that big outside of the more hardcore gamer crowd. Maybe with the success of indie metroidvanias + how well Dread do, it could change.

And also I agree about what you said about Prime 3. Was kind of an odd game... Really thought its tone and it being a bit story focus compared to the first game is really weird in hindsight lol. I hope 4 is more closer to 1's direction.

 

[Dusa]

Like I said, Metroid Prime 3 was a sort of flawed experience to begin with (i.e. it was clearly trying to be "Nintendo's Halo").

You're putting outsized emphasis on what a small group of people think. Meanwhile, Animal Crossing: Wild World did better than every Metroid game on GC/Wii/GBA/DS/3DS combined. Metroid is not a series that appeals to non-gamers, and it's not a pillar.

 

[Clov]

Like I said, Metroid Prime 3 was a sort of flawed experience to begin with (i.e. it was clearly trying to be "Nintendo's Halo").

(Also I have to ask, do you hate Metroid? lol)

Nintendo's Halo was the GameCube all-timer, Geist

Also I don't see how anything she said points to her hating Metroid

Also, trans rights are human rights!

I think it'd be a great thing for it to be formally axed from the canon altogether!

I agree entirely! I've said it before and I'll say it again; Other M is a trash game for incels. Awful writing, awful gameplay. Irredeemable!