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In the grand scheme of message boards, like buttons are a relatively new invention. Sure, vBulletin had rep, but that shit was never visible or, well, used!
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Discussion I like the "Yeah!" function here.
- Thread starter Cow Mengde
- Start date
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Overall, I think your idea is a good one. Regarding this part in particular though, I have to find it funny, if people start turning Yeah!s off on their controversial posts, and acting like we'll just never know what the number of them coulda been.
If I post "Super Mario is a stinky manchild with diaper rash", but in an obviously serious, non-ironic way, I definitely already know how many likes I'd get, and that number would be in the shape of a goose egg, I reckon.
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Yeah!s can now be disabled on a thread by thread basis by staff. For more details, see the forum update thread.
Individual user settings are being looked into; both the ability to remove the button from your posts and to make the system invisible altogether if you'd rather not see it (as separate options). We'd also like to make official staff posts and actioned (warned/banned) posts unable to be Yeah!d, but individual posts have proven difficult.
Individual user settings are being looked into; both the ability to remove the button from your posts and to make the system invisible altogether if you'd rather not see it (as separate options). We'd also like to make official staff posts and actioned (warned/banned) posts unable to be Yeah!d, but individual posts have proven difficult.
Which brings me to this - I realize it wasn't your overall point, but if we do implement such a setting it'd likely be at a user level, not a post level. You'd either have them disabled across all your posts - even ones made previously - or none of them. This is mainly for technical simplicity.
Unyeah
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In the forums that I was a user of, yes it was used. It was usually abused sadly, so the admins disabled it normally. The other thing people did to get around a block in vBulletin was to post in like a 'user note' thing. It happened to me a few times before. Sadly the people who did it to me were doing it to harass me over a person I was friends with. This was many years ago though. lol
Clov
An ethernet cable girlfriend
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I think it would be a bad idea to do this, as it could easily be exploited by trolls. Suppose someone has disabled yeahs on their posts, and then starts making posts targetting certain groups of people. That user could then claim "Most of the forum agrees with me, but we'll never know!" While I understand the staff can deal with such people directly, I think for the sake of the various minority communities here, it would be better to leave the decision to have Yeahs appear or not to the staff. I think it would be comforting for those people to know that most of the forum wouldn't be on the side of this theoretical troll.
I would think if a post elicits a extreme enough reaction, users would just call the poster out (especially on rhetoric of 'everybody agrees with me without proof.') removing yeahs shouldn't be able to completely subtract from the nuances of regular posting.
Clov
An ethernet cable girlfriend
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While true, Yeahs allow people who aren't comfortable enough to comment on a topic the ability to show their approval of a post. If you allow a user to disable the function on their posts, said troll can claim the "silent majority" each time. By allowing only staff to disable Yeahs, this defense would be rendered moot, which is what I think would be ultimately better for the community here.
I generally agree with what Yeahs bring to the table, but I'm not 100% how this refutes my point. If somebody chooses not to engage with the yeah system at all, then we should take their post's merit by.. well, it's content, not on if the poster choses to lean on whether or not the 'yeah' system exists for the sake of their argument.
I would just argue giving posters their own tools to help corral threads a little helps ease moderator work in the long run.
I should also note now I'm not arguing against your point heavily, I'm really just shooting the shit because I notice you're bringing up a specific argument. I mentioned IMO this type of upvote system doesn't bring net positives or negatives, they just change the overall flow of posting.
edit: after a re-read I think the point you're making is that this defence would be rendered moot? but I'm thinking that any poster relying on this crappy argument would most likely still make a post in bad faith, so it's a pretty specific scenario to try to counter
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Clov
An ethernet cable girlfriend
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I understand that you're not necessarily disagreeing. I do understand how you feel it could help ease the work of the moderation team. I think perhaps we're just looking at this issue from two different perspectives. From my perspective as a transgender person, I'm looking at it like this:
Suppose we have a troll posting transphobic content who has disabled Yeahs on their posts. Sure, they will be yelled at by plenty of users, and sure, they will get banned. But with no Yeahs enabled, they could repeatedly claim that the majority of people agree with them but don't want to speak up. What I would find most comforting of all is not only a rebuke from the community and a ban, but also to deny them of any kind of "silent majority" defense.
I don't like the idea of turning it off for entire threads, that seems like it would lead to worse conversations.
i'll make this a last point here because we're cluttering up the thread; not sure if you caught my edit but to me it drives down to shitty posts are going to be posted no matter what illogical fallacies are done to prop it up; where yeahs in this equation seem moot to me because if a transphobic opinion is out there, that's a shitty opinion. but i definitely see your point on every bit of preventive measure to stop trolling helps.
there's definitely a balance to be made between how much accessibility/purchase the staff want to give users versus the lack of yeahs being leveraged in this scenario. it's hard to really summarize, and yeah: we could just be looking at a very specific issue from two viewpoints with good intentions, so yeah it's just a matter of perspective.
if you want to discuss this further i'm happy to be dmed about it.
Clov
An ethernet cable girlfriend
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I'll make this my last point as well. I understand your perspective, and it is true that no matter what, there will be people who will employ bad faith arguments. I just think that we shouldn't provide any kind of possibility for tools to be placed into the hands of bigots, especially when the positives of removing Yeahs seem so minimal from my point of view.
In any case, we can end things here. We may not agree with each other, but hopefully our differing perspectives will be of some use to the staff when making decisions on these matters.
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I'm on the side of liking Yeahs.
In other forums, it is so easy to feel so miserable, and I think a lot of the reason for it is because so many users feel invisible. The only way to get any sort of attention is through hyperbole, ridicule, and is very much displayed in a toxic manner.
Even just seeing that my post made a "yeah" really allows for a good amount of activity, and makes me feel heard and agreeable. As much as one can be on the internet.
So long as the forum isn't counting Yeahs for forum clout or whatever, I think it will continue to be this way. It's just simply fun, and a nice way to show appreciation to people's posts. Especially considering that it doesn't have a negative option, and hasn't really been abused at all, and how agreeable this community is. I would say it's doing its job, and I think the Yeah system really accounts for a lot of it. With the great moderation team we have had of course.
In other forums, it is so easy to feel so miserable, and I think a lot of the reason for it is because so many users feel invisible. The only way to get any sort of attention is through hyperbole, ridicule, and is very much displayed in a toxic manner.
Even just seeing that my post made a "yeah" really allows for a good amount of activity, and makes me feel heard and agreeable. As much as one can be on the internet.
So long as the forum isn't counting Yeahs for forum clout or whatever, I think it will continue to be this way. It's just simply fun, and a nice way to show appreciation to people's posts. Especially considering that it doesn't have a negative option, and hasn't really been abused at all, and how agreeable this community is. I would say it's doing its job, and I think the Yeah system really accounts for a lot of it. With the great moderation team we have had of course.
I like the Yeah system a lot since 95+% of the time it is a positive interaction and a good way to agree or at least acknowledge someone without having to write a full post. Sometimes I yeah people I disagree with just because they still put meaningful thought into their post and that’s cool.
In the other corner, more tense situations, Yeah’s have two good purposes. If someone is called out, you can give Yeah!s both in support of a minority opinion or as a way to agree with the disagreement without dramatically escalating a situation. Thus far anyway, I haven’t seen anyone write out big posts attacking anyone who yeah’d against them since it is a calmer interaction. Feeling the pressure of a ratio is a good thing if you are engaging in good faith. Not having your opinions challenged and having to engage with a ratio encourages bad behavior. I do feel bad for anyone that takes it too personally, but the main purpose of this forum is a video game forum and if you aren’t being heinous in some way you shouldn’t feel too bad about pushback when you don’t like a popular game or something.
Please leave Yeah!s always on. They are a net positive. Don’t give people an option to opt out. If Yeah’s make people think more thoughtfully about what they are posting, it is overwhelmingly a good thing.
In the other corner, more tense situations, Yeah’s have two good purposes. If someone is called out, you can give Yeah!s both in support of a minority opinion or as a way to agree with the disagreement without dramatically escalating a situation. Thus far anyway, I haven’t seen anyone write out big posts attacking anyone who yeah’d against them since it is a calmer interaction. Feeling the pressure of a ratio is a good thing if you are engaging in good faith. Not having your opinions challenged and having to engage with a ratio encourages bad behavior. I do feel bad for anyone that takes it too personally, but the main purpose of this forum is a video game forum and if you aren’t being heinous in some way you shouldn’t feel too bad about pushback when you don’t like a popular game or something.
Please leave Yeah!s always on. They are a net positive. Don’t give people an option to opt out. If Yeah’s make people think more thoughtfully about what they are posting, it is overwhelmingly a good thing.
Revolsin
Moblin
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i mean, it's the exact same 'ratio' concept as on twitter. we already know it can be used for toxicity
not only do i think this is an excellent idea, i'd rather they be off by default and optionally on. would go a long way in removing the popularity contest deal in threads, and still allows you to show appreciation/agreement with a poster and let them know of it.
Hey Bellydrum, since you directly asked, I wrote a lengthy post on it a little while ago and I want to make sure you see it as you weigh the issue. I didn’t think to tag you earlier when I wrote it.
Having this power at the staff level for a whole thread I think can be a good thing as long as it is used sparingly and appropriately. I mentioned it in my post prior, but I do think having the ability to Yeah! in a more tense situation is overall a good thing we should protect because I think certain ideas should feel the pushback of a ratio.
For example, in the Nintendo Direct speculation thread that ended recently, as we got closer and more people entered we had a few posters with some toxic views. One in particular basically said to the extent that video game marketing was more important than any struggles faced in the pandemic. If they were actioned elsewhere or if reports were filed I’m not aware, but one regular poster directly and strongly called them out. Rather than the whole thread having to engage directly with a toxic user or viewpoint, we were able to shower the second user in likes to reject the first users stance. Again, I’m not aware if they were actioned elsewhere or if anyone reported them, but they did not return to the thread after being rejected like that and I’d call that a good outcome for everyone involved.
Fercho
Touch Fuzzy get dizzy
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I like the Yeahs, mainly because I’ve received more than the ones I’ve given LMAO.
Serious answer now, I believe it makes people feel like they are being read by the users here, without the necessity for someone to reply and just say "i seconded" or to say "wow great post".
Posting in an enthusiast internet forum is a time sink by itself, but it´s great to feel that your posts somehow matter without anyone quoting you and that you are not totally wasting your time in contributing to any given discussion.
Anyway, that´s my take. I see with horror how tons of threads I’ve read tonight start to lean to the absolute negative side of the discussion, it reminds me of ResetERA and i don´t like it, one thing i love about this forum is how it can maintain the positivity even in hard subjects. Now the Yeah function is being discussed due to the toxicity it can spawn. I do see the concerns but as long as the moderators due their jobs this will be a non-issue.
Serious answer now, I believe it makes people feel like they are being read by the users here, without the necessity for someone to reply and just say "i seconded" or to say "wow great post".
Posting in an enthusiast internet forum is a time sink by itself, but it´s great to feel that your posts somehow matter without anyone quoting you and that you are not totally wasting your time in contributing to any given discussion.
Anyway, that´s my take. I see with horror how tons of threads I’ve read tonight start to lean to the absolute negative side of the discussion, it reminds me of ResetERA and i don´t like it, one thing i love about this forum is how it can maintain the positivity even in hard subjects. Now the Yeah function is being discussed due to the toxicity it can spawn. I do see the concerns but as long as the moderators due their jobs this will be a non-issue.
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This is absolutely the reason why I love them. Makes it feel like I’m part of a community with my contributions being read and acknowledged, rather than just spitting something into a void never really knowing if someone reads what I write.
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We can really fun this place up by letting people do milestone threads. Been here a year? Thread. 1,000 posts? Thread. Would remind me of the Atari Community forums.
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I think disabling them in the Bowser thread was the right move. We literally had people quoting to say things like “think about why you have no Yeahs”, and “I can’t Yeah this”. Regardless of their intent it was just juvenile and mean, and brings me back to the popularity contest that are likes across other social media.
Typically yeahs are great because they are non consequential and optional. You see them peppered throughout a thread but don’t go yeahing every post you read. When’s a thread gets too heated they become a signifier of what “side” you are on and they seem to just perpetuate the conflict for conflict sake rather than productive discussion. So, I agree with the decision to turn them off as needed per thread.
I can’t speak to that thread directly since I never stepped in it beyond reading the two staff posts after hearing about the direction/atmosphere it took in the main thread, but yes the general vibe I got is that that kind of thread is exactly the kind of thread with a more serious news story where the ability to disable Yeah!/s for the whole thread from the staff level is a good thing. That sort of thread is the odd exception to Yeah!s rather than the rule though. I think only staff should be able to make the call or not.
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Agreed, or perhaps a certain tag type automatically could remove Yeah's
While Twitter ratios can be a funny meme, I think that likes kind of ruined Internet discourse
But here they are fine because they don’t really fall into the usual trappings of that system. There are no downvotes so the Reddit hivemind problem isn’t really there. Most people here seem like they are just looking for honest discussion after leaving a place with obnoxious moderation so I haven’t really seen the yeah system being used for circlejerking so far
Like, the worst I’ve seen are insiders systematically getting 20+ yeahs even when they talk about boring potential announcements that everyone should hope that they don’t exist but even then it’s fine because they don’t abuse their ratioing potential
But here they are fine because they don’t really fall into the usual trappings of that system. There are no downvotes so the Reddit hivemind problem isn’t really there. Most people here seem like they are just looking for honest discussion after leaving a place with obnoxious moderation so I haven’t really seen the yeah system being used for circlejerking so far
Like, the worst I’ve seen are insiders systematically getting 20+ yeahs even when they talk about boring potential announcements that everyone should hope that they don’t exist but even then it’s fine because they don’t abuse their ratioing potential
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If I would ever get one of these I don‘t think that I‘d ever be able to say anything over the web ever again lol
Photon Rush
Tektite
yeah
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Put me down as someone who doesn't like the yeahs, but I have a solution that addresses my issue with the system while keeping it intact: remove the profile yeah count.
My issue is that yeah
ost ratio naturally becomes a social cred thing. Just the other day in the ST, people were bragging about their ratios, which creates the popularity contest effect that can such the fun out of posting here. It creates a pressure to worry about the yeahability of every post rather than just contributing.
I spoke about this in the ST before and said it could be a good thing to think about what you're posting, but I take that back. The yeahs encourage thinking about yeahability, not post quality. Someone could make a thoughtful, concise post about how Rex's character underpins the themes of XC2 and get 2 or 3 yeahs, while someone else lazily posting "I LOVE XENOBLADE" will get 20. Sorry, guys. You're not that sophisticated. Look how many "I agree" posts get multiple yeahs. That is to say nothing about legitimate question posts that are yeah ratio poison.
Removing the profile yeah count solves this because now it's not practical to track aggregate yeahs and so it can't be used as a form of social cred. Posts can be yeahed, but a post that doesn't is just a post that doesn't, not an active detriment to some social competition goal.
My issue is that yeah
ost ratio naturally becomes a social cred thing. Just the other day in the ST, people were bragging about their ratios, which creates the popularity contest effect that can such the fun out of posting here. It creates a pressure to worry about the yeahability of every post rather than just contributing. I spoke about this in the ST before and said it could be a good thing to think about what you're posting, but I take that back. The yeahs encourage thinking about yeahability, not post quality. Someone could make a thoughtful, concise post about how Rex's character underpins the themes of XC2 and get 2 or 3 yeahs, while someone else lazily posting "I LOVE XENOBLADE" will get 20. Sorry, guys. You're not that sophisticated. Look how many "I agree" posts get multiple yeahs. That is to say nothing about legitimate question posts that are yeah ratio poison.
Removing the profile yeah count solves this because now it's not practical to track aggregate yeahs and so it can't be used as a form of social cred. Posts can be yeahed, but a post that doesn't is just a post that doesn't, not an active detriment to some social competition goal.
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