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Discussion I’m gonna say what we’re all thinking. Switch 2 NEEDS trackpads.

Toasty

Rattata
So I’ve been investigating gyro on steamdeck again but this time I’ve been using the track pads for general aim. In prior attempts with gyro general aim I tried high sensitivity stick control but found it to lack too much precision when needed and tried flick stick but found the lack of up down positioning to cause issue with gyro constantly changing my neutral position. Trackpads seem to have changed this. Not only can I quickly swipe to hit a 180 turn but I can also get decent slow precision tracking with gyro making up for whatever is lost in a thumb based aiming system. I’ve pinballed between a bunch of different gyro aiming styles and games with all of them always feeling slightly off but this is the first that really feels like it has no huge downsides. Well accept for the size and positioning of the pads on SD. If I could have those up where the analogue sticks are and just a tad larger and possibly circular I’d be in heaven.

But that’s it, that’s the post. Does anyone else agree with this or am I just bad at flick stick? Also, in the very least Nintendo, make flick stick an aiming option in splat 4.
 
Trackpads are the reason why the Steam Deck sticks are bad, so ehh? It's inherently a compromise that makes the controller layout extremely bad. The ROG Ally is way better at that because there are no trackpads, although that also has its own compromises of course.
 
That’s gonna be a “No” from me, dawg.

My only experience of the sort is with the touchpad on PS4, and I never liked it. I’m always accidentally pressing/touching it. I suppose I simply do not play the kinds of games in which this kind of control input felt necessary so personally, this is simply not something I want nor need.
 
Love them on the Steam Controller and prefer them to sticks most of the time but it's unfortunately not something with mainstream appeal
 
I've had a Steam Deck for maybe a year and a half and I don't think I ever use the touchpads

Now if we're talking things Nintendo should crib from Valve, gimme those back buttons
 
In addition to sticks and buttons? Sure, why not.

Replacing them? Nope.

Not a diss on the trackpads, mind you. I managed to get through Axiom Verge with the Steam controller trackpad as a D-pad. They're workable, but I wish they were given their own space as input methods instead of an attempt as a catch all replacement. They can have their uses.
 
That’s gonna be a “No” from me, dawg.

My only experience of the sort is with the touchpad on PS4, and I never liked it. I’m always accidentally pressing/touching it. I suppose I simply do not play the kinds of games in which this kind of control input felt necessary so personally, this is simply not something I want nor need.
I agree that the actual “touch” function of the touch bar on DS4 and DualSense controllers is iffy at best, and they feel bad on the fingers. Like sliding your fingers on a Kindle. But as buttons, I think they’re brilliant. It’s an entire new button that other modern controllers don’t have, and it opens up a lot of possibilities. Its worth it for that alone.

Regarding the track pads that OP is talking about, I’m not sure Steam Deck-style trackpads would work on a modern controller, at least not one with traditional analog sticks. The Steam controller seemed to make them work, but it lacked sticks. I can’t speak to how they worked because I never got the chance to use one. But I’m just not sure there’s space for trackpads and analog sticks on a modern controller.
 
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Not everything needs to be optimised for shooters, especially if it's going to cause compromises for other controls.
 
The Steam Deck needs its trackpads more than the Switch since it's a handheld PC and controller support doesn't exist for every single title out there, so there's a built-in mouse input option for both games and desktop mode.

However, I would appreciate the addition of some kind of capacitve touch surface on the new controllers. The Switch feels like a synthesis of Nintendo's past innovations including motion and rumble, but touch is a noticeable omission. It has a touchscreen, but is rarely used since it isn't available in docked mode. A touch sensitive surface on the controllers would enable touch for all modes and add an extra optional input that could be fun for games.

There are some options for this, like a small touchpad with haptics. Can be used as a scrolling input and is small enough

animated-4.gif

totk-possiblity-for-water-arrows-what-could-they-do-v0-czot6w94wpta1.gif


Perhaps L+R could be made touch sensitive with haptics so we could get an implementation of scroll wheel shoulder buttons. Like an iPod scroll wheel.

There was also a patent that made the face buttons touch sensitive so that gliding your finger across them simulates touchpad movement.
IwgnErE.png


We know Nintendo patents are no guarantee of final features, but it's nice that they are at least thinking about how to incorporate touch in their games while maintaining the traditional controller layout.
 
I've had a Steam Deck for maybe a year and a half and I don't think I ever use the touchpads

Now if we're talking things Nintendo should crib from Valve, gimme those back buttons
This is why I've been playing with split Joy-Con lately, because both SL and SR buttons can be whatever you want. Super handy without needing to buy more stuff.
In addition to sticks and buttons? Sure, why not.

Replacing them? Nope.

Not a diss on the trackpads, mind you. I managed to get through Axiom Verge with the Steam controller trackpad as a D-pad. They're workable, but I wish they were given their own space as input methods instead of an attempt as a catch all replacement. They can have their uses.
You can't have additions without inherently compromising the control layout as the stick positioning with the buttons on the Steam Deck is terrible as a direct result of the trackpads. Back buttons can only cover so much. And Valve needs those trackpads to cover the PC games without controller support, as opposed to the ROG Ally which feels immaculate in the hands but lacks those trackpads.
 
Switch 2 needs an IR bar.
I agree! If you could take out the need for only gyro then my flick stick issues really wouldn’t exist. Although my belief that trackpads are still nicer solution would still exist since it better facilitates the handheld playstyle.
 
Not everything needs to be optimised for shooters, especially if it's going to cause compromises for other controls.
I don’t believe it would as again something like steamdeck shows you can make it all work together even in its cumbersome package. It could potentially become crowded on a regular pro controller but after using it for period I can not only see the additives from a shooter perspective but even genres like sim and rts would no doubt have a better experience.
 
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The Steam Deck needs its trackpads more than the Switch since it's a handheld PC and controller support doesn't exist for every single title out there, so there's a built-in mouse input option for both games and desktop mode.

However, I would appreciate the addition of some kind of capacitve touch surface on the new controllers. The Switch feels like a synthesis of Nintendo's past innovations including motion and rumble, but touch is a noticeable omission. It has a touchscreen, but is rarely used since it isn't available in docked mode. A touch sensitive surface on the controllers would enable touch for all modes and add an extra optional input that could be fun for games.

There are some options for this, like a small touchpad with haptics. Can be used as a scrolling input and is small enough

animated-4.gif

totk-possiblity-for-water-arrows-what-could-they-do-v0-czot6w94wpta1.gif


Perhaps L+R could be made touch sensitive with haptics so we could get an implementation of scroll wheel shoulder buttons. Like an iPod scroll wheel.

There was also a patent that made the face buttons touch sensitive so that gliding your finger across them simulates touchpad movement.
IwgnErE.png


We know Nintendo patents are no guarantee of final features, but it's nice that they are at least thinking about how to incorporate touch in their games while maintaining the traditional controller layout.
From a practicality standpoint, yeah, even slightly bigger next gen Joy-Con wouldn't reasonably house a trackpad, even a small one. I think the most practical option is a combination of your suggestions, haptic capacitive L and R for scrolling, capacitive ABXY for a pseudo trackpad. The patent includes measuring distance of the digit from the buttons, so it should be able to work like a normal trackpad using only four refefence points, pretty neat concept.

Personally what I want to see is capacitive pressure sensitive L and R, giving us scrolling shoulder buttons and analogue input, at least. But for a pointing device, I think they should bring back the 3DS C Stick.


c-stick.jpg


And no, I'm not joking. A full size trackpad or trackball isn't realistically going to fit, and while building it into ABXY is impressive, it means a lot of inputs whether you mean to or not. The C Stick was a pointing stick, like TrackPoint, a fully featured mouse pointer. It's a tiny part with the input of a mouse, which is what we want. It can also come in different shapes and presentations, they could make it dome shaped and textured, like Lenovo's modern trackpoint, they could make it upright and cylindrical like the 3DS, and either way it takes up less space than a button.

In terms of layout, considering a pair of Joy-Con upright, I'd place it down and to the right of the ABXY diamond on Joy-Con (R), and while we're at it, add 1 and 2 buttons to the top right for a full six button layout. On the Joy-Con (L), it would be up and to the right, with its own 1 and 2 (1L and 2L).

This gives up a lot more input without a lot more space, and Nintendo has experience with this pointing device. Plus you have two, imagine what they can do with that! Shooters could use them as an alternative camera input for finer and faster movement, for example (Compare Minecraft New Nintendo 3DS and Nintendo Switch to see what I mean here, the C Stick is better for control in a first person shooter.)

What's important though is that this would also improve sideways Joy-Con play hugely. In sideways Joy-Con Play, you'd now have a nearly full suite of inputs. A left analogue stick for movement, the pointing stick for camera controls (whereas a built in trackpad on ABXY would he more awkward), and 1 and 2 help make up the difference from the lack of triggers.

So yeah, that's why I'd like to see pointing sticks (C Stick) make a return, to me it seems like the perfect balance. Small, familiar, mouse-like input that can be used in every play mode and doesn't interfere with anything else.

While I'm at it, I would suggest they expand the naming scheme for the buttons. They always call the analogue sticks Control Sticks, so call them CL and CR, call the pointing sticks PL and PR, call the 1+2 buttons 1L, 2L, 1R, 2R.

What this would mean is that every button would have a unique name even in a full controller setup.

At this point I think I'm dreaming up my ideal Nintendo controller, but the Wii U GamePad already exists.
 
NO IR BARS NEVER AGAIN NOT THAT FINNICKY HELL AGAIN NOT THAT "YOU NEED TO POSITION YOUR SETUP EXACTLY LIKE THIS OR IT WON'T WORK" AGAIN. GRRRAAAHHH NOT EVEN PSVR 2 USES LIGHTHOUSES. PLEASE. NEVER AGAIN.
 
Hmm.....not really.

I did like the trackpads on the Steam Controller and only played a couple of games with it exclusively (Mirror's Edge Catalyst and Tomb Raider 2013) but I can't see it being adopted in a large scale way. I wouldn't even see Nintendo adopt it by now.

I do like the fact that Valve didn't abandon it on their Steam Deck.
 
From a practicality standpoint, yeah, even slightly bigger next gen Joy-Con wouldn't reasonably house a trackpad, even a small one. I think the most practical option is a combination of your suggestions, haptic capacitive L and R for scrolling, capacitive ABXY for a pseudo trackpad. The patent includes measuring distance of the digit from the buttons, so it should be able to work like a normal trackpad using only four refefence points, pretty neat concept.

Personally what I want to see is capacitive pressure sensitive L and R, giving us scrolling shoulder buttons and analogue input, at least. But for a pointing device, I think they should bring back the 3DS C Stick.


c-stick.jpg


And no, I'm not joking. A full size trackpad or trackball isn't realistically going to fit, and while building it into ABXY is impressive, it means a lot of inputs whether you mean to or not. The C Stick was a pointing stick, like TrackPoint, a fully featured mouse pointer. It's a tiny part with the input of a mouse, which is what we want. It can also come in different shapes and presentations, they could make it dome shaped and textured, like Lenovo's modern trackpoint, they could make it upright and cylindrical like the 3DS, and either way it takes up less space than a button.

In terms of layout, considering a pair of Joy-Con upright, I'd place it down and to the right of the ABXY diamond on Joy-Con (R), and while we're at it, add 1 and 2 buttons to the top right for a full six button layout. On the Joy-Con (L), it would be up and to the right, with its own 1 and 2 (1L and 2L).

This gives up a lot more input without a lot more space, and Nintendo has experience with this pointing device. Plus you have two, imagine what they can do with that! Shooters could use them as an alternative camera input for finer and faster movement, for example (Compare Minecraft New Nintendo 3DS and Nintendo Switch to see what I mean here, the C Stick is better for control in a first person shooter.)

What's important though is that this would also improve sideways Joy-Con play hugely. In sideways Joy-Con Play, you'd now have a nearly full suite of inputs. A left analogue stick for movement, the pointing stick for camera controls (whereas a built in trackpad on ABXY would he more awkward), and 1 and 2 help make up the difference from the lack of triggers.

So yeah, that's why I'd like to see pointing sticks (C Stick) make a return, to me it seems like the perfect balance. Small, familiar, mouse-like input that can be used in every play mode and doesn't interfere with anything else.

While I'm at it, I would suggest they expand the naming scheme for the buttons. They always call the analogue sticks Control Sticks, so call them CL and CR, call the pointing sticks PL and PR, call the 1+2 buttons 1L, 2L, 1R, 2R.

What this would mean is that every button would have a unique name even in a full controller setup.

At this point I think I'm dreaming up my ideal Nintendo controller, but the Wii U GamePad already exists.
My only issue with the 3ds c stick was that at times it felt like you really had to grind into it to get a response out of the thing. Never completely unusable but in mh4 I was definitely thinking I was gonna tear it off at times. I’d have to try some different iterations of it to know if I just could not vibe with the thing. But I’m not against them taking another swing at something like it again.
 
I really hate the Steam Deck trackpads, which I find unusable, but I think the idea has merit
 
My only issue with the 3ds c stick was that at times it felt like you really had to grind into it to get a response out of the thing. Never completely unusable but in mh4 I was definitely thinking I was gonna tear it off at times. I’d have to try some different iterations of it to know if I just could not vibe with the thing. But I’m not against them taking another swing at something like it again.
If you've ever used a pointing stick on PC, that's what I have in mind. It takes a moment to get used to but it really is a good mouse substitute for limited space environments.
 
Hmm.....not really.

I did like the trackpads on the Steam Controller and only played a couple of games with it exclusively (Mirror's Edge Catalyst and Tomb Raider 2013) but I can't see it being adopted in a large scale way. I wouldn't even see Nintendo adopt it by now.

I do like the fact that Valve didn't abandon it on their Steam Deck.
If I’m being honest, they probably(almost certainly) will never gain large scale adoption. I just think it’s gonna be a sad day when we’ve decided that today’s button stick layout is peak controller design and the only changes that companies will make are minor shape changes and buttons on the back. Hopefully when Microsoft finally stops cheaping out and adds gyro functionality, studios for all different genres can think of more impactful ways to incorporate it.
 
If you've ever used a pointing stick on PC, that's what I have in mind. It takes a moment to get used to but it really is a good mouse substitute for limited space environments.
I had a modern Lenovo for a few years and I can say its concave style was certainly more pleasant.
 
NO IR BARS NEVER AGAIN NOT THAT FINNICKY HELL AGAIN NOT THAT "YOU NEED TO POSITION YOUR SETUP EXACTLY LIKE THIS OR IT WON'T WORK" AGAIN. GRRRAAAHHH NOT EVEN PSVR 2 USES LIGHTHOUSES. PLEASE. NEVER AGAIN.

I agree, I rather have gyro that is not as accurate as Wii Motes and not deal with the IR bars. 🤢🤢🤢
 
Rear mounted clickable trackpads, so you can look up and down, flick stick and gyro simultaneously.

I say clickable because it would make it much more useful than what Vita had.
 
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What Switch needs is the d-pad to not be torture like the current nonsense on Joy-Cons.
I'm gonna push back on this. There are a couple of genres where the Joy-Con D-Pad is really bad: namely, top-down 2D games like A Link to the Past, Shock Troopers, anything like that. This is their greatest weakness. Games that also require a lot of diagonal inputs like Super Metroid are also rough.

But in every 3D game, they are better than a normal D-Pad because those are generally used as glorified buttons these days, so having them as a button makes way more sense and feels way better.

They are also superior for menuing compared to a normal D-Pad.

2D platformers like Super Mario Bros. Wonder, Sonic Mania (you only press down to curl into a ball very occasionally so diagonal inputs aren't an issue), and all that also benefit a lot from it.

Grid-based games like Mega Man Battle Network and Cadence of Hyrule/Crypt of the NecroDancer are also way better than anything else. Short of a keyboard, Joy-Cons are the best controller for those games.
 
I'd rather have a track ball. Steam deck ergonomics are horrible so I don't think Nintendo should look to them at all.
 
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People who unironically liked those old Steam controllers always hype up track pads, but personally I just don't get it. That kind of control setup about as niche as you can get, unlike gyro aiming which is actually useful (and good) when properly implemented.
 
I feel incredibly stupid right now because I wanted something like this but it never once occured to me that you could put a trackpad on a controller as a solution even though I haven't used a computer without one in at least a decade.

...I'm not sure how good it would be though. If it can't replace both gyro and the right stick in precision and ease of use for camera control and aiming it's not worth having imo.
 
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Trackpads are great, but there's an initial comfort/learning curve to them that feels alienating to people who like sticks too much. I think the same learning curve came with motion controls, and it took an entire generation of a few Wii gems to convince people on gyro/motion controls. I think having the mainstream playerbase to re-learn a whole new method of input is probably too much to ask though.

That being said, Doom 2016 on the Steam Deck absolutely rips with track pads.
 
I am kinda worried about possibility of further accessibility ramifications depending on implementation and requirements of them on the addition of regular controls... I struggle enough with regular controllers, due to neurological condition that I have misfires in my brain when I have to do too many operations with my fingers, adding a track pad to add additional operations, could be an accessibiltiy nightmare for someone like me. I can't even use motion controls for this very reason...

Like, replying to Edie's post here a bit...

Trackpads are great, but there's an initial comfort/learning curve to them that feels alienating to people who like sticks too much. I think the same learning curve came with motion controls, and it took an entire generation of a few Wii gems to convince people on gyro/motion controls.

I mean, it didn't convince me because of my disabilities, and on top of it, like your follow up statement...

I think having the mainstream playerbase to re-learn a whole new method of input is probably too much to ask though.

Remember, this could make or break a game for disabled people for adding track pads as a function of further games.

I've been very adamant about how motion controls are a dual edged sword for accessibility, and track pads could potentially depending on implementation. Knowing Nintendo, they would likely implement them as an extension of the gameplay just adding layers of complications, rather than supporting track pad support for remapping controls and the like.

It's frustrating because both gyro/motion and track pads help, but they can be barriers, and knowing Nintendo...?

Absolutely not. Zero. Nope.
 
I am kinda worried about possibility of further accessibility ramifications depending on implementation and requirements of them on the addition of regular controls... I struggle enough with regular controllers, due to neurological condition that I have misfires in my brain when I have to do too many operations with my fingers, adding a track pad to add additional operations, could be an accessibiltiy nightmare for someone like me. I can't even use motion controls for this very reason...

Like, replying to Edie's post here a bit...



I mean, it didn't convince me because of my disabilities, and on top of it, like your follow up statement...



Remember, this could make or break a game for disabled people for adding track pads as a function of further games.

I've been very adamant about how motion controls are a dual edged sword for accessibility, and track pads could potentially depending on implementation. Knowing Nintendo, they would likely implement them as an extension of the gameplay just adding layers of complications, rather than supporting track pad support for remapping controls and the like.

It's frustrating because both gyro/motion and track pads help, but they can be barriers, and knowing Nintendo...?

Absolutely not. Zero. Nope.
I'm empathetic to this because--while obviously not the same--I have hand and wrist problems keep me from using controllers for extended periods of time without severe pain, track pads and arcade sticks included. It's why I generally prefer M/KB for controls since it puts less stress my my grips and thumbs.

I think as alternative control methods I like them, but I can see how being additive functions would be accessibility problems. I'm glad posts like this exist to be informative.
 
I really dislike them on my steamdeck. But that just because they feel cheap and bad designed.

Anyway i always though when switch released that there would be some joycon that has a trackpad on the right for fps games.
 
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I enjoy the Steam Deck but if it's anything like the trackpads on there, I do not want them on a Switch.
 
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The Steam Deck causes me pain in my hands and wrists after less than half an hour due to the mix of weight, thickness and width. I can only hope that Nintendo will do a much better job here in terms of ergonomics. If that means not having trackpads, then they'll just have to keep them out. (Especially as I don't consider their functionality to be essential for a console, whereas they are of central importance for a PC).
 
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The only reason I could see this happening would be to allow the arrival of Nintendo DS and Nintendo 3DS games on the Nintendo switch online in docking mode.

On the other hand, the trackpad, the tactile in general, just like the gyroscope, can be a nightmare in terms of accessibility for people who suffer from disabilities. This is precisely what drove me away from Nintendo during the super-cosual period or so-called my grandfather could play tennis with gyroscope and Nicole Kidman could cook with stylus, but where in reality everything was much more difficult for me than on the wonderful gamecube controller
.
 
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Switch 2 needs a release date. That's it

No but seriously, I don't see much of a benefit that can't be handled by gyro or sticks (or both), what it needs is mouse support for those games that benefit from fine cursor control, adding it to the current one just would cramp it.
 
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Touchpads are a workaround to play games not fitted to console controls.
I did not like them on the steam controller at all.
If buttons could recognise the direction you swipe about them, then you might add to the experience and
I could see some use cases for this. Like change form one type of weapon to another, without e.g. using the d-pad for it.
 
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That Nintendo patent got me thinking... Instead of the ABXY simulating a trackpad, could they make a non-flat trackpad with haptics which feels like a real ABXY?

Because if, and that's a big if, they could replace the dpad and ABXY with trackpads without it being an inferior experience for the standard layout, that would open up quite a bit of input possibilities (e.g. touchpads obviously, a scroll wheel with a 5th button in the middle like old iPods, a "second-stick" for single Joycon, dpad with better diagonal input and probably more).
 
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NO IR BARS NEVER AGAIN NOT THAT FINNICKY HELL AGAIN NOT THAT "YOU NEED TO POSITION YOUR SETUP EXACTLY LIKE THIS OR IT WON'T WORK" AGAIN. GRRRAAAHHH NOT EVEN PSVR 2 USES LIGHTHOUSES. PLEASE. NEVER AGAIN.
I mean you'd still have the option to use the bad gyro and recalibrate every 9 seconds, that wouldn't go away.
 
I'm fine with sticks really, just move to hall effect this time.

The change I want are analog scroll L/R wheels (with digital click) and modern haptics. And a real d-pad would be nice.
 
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No, thanks, I’ll take good joysticks, a good D-pad and gyro (and also gyros, but not expecting that from the Switch 2) over trackpads
 
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I mean you'd still have the option to use the bad gyro and recalibrate every 9 seconds, that wouldn't go away.
If Skyward Sword can force us to use either or and somehow be the worst of all worlds, I'm not so sure.

Pro Controller Gyro is thankfully a lot better than Wii Remote Plus, it's usually minutes, hours between recalibrating. The system Gyro is good enough even for VR without making people sick! Impressive stuff, and so, so, so much better than sensor bars.

Because don't you remember? If something went wrong with the sensor bar.

You weren't ALLOWED recalibrate it!
 
I mean you'd still have the option to use the bad gyro and recalibrate every 9 seconds, that wouldn't go away.
Switch gyro isn't nearly thar bad and is generally stupid-easy to recalibrate.

IR sensor bars are a creation of a hateful trickster god.
 
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