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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

Two week threadban for hostility and ignoring staff posts. - Red Monster, Aurc, Derachi
After skimming through multiple pages of people hissing at a YouTuber like a bunch of vampires confronted by sunlight, "No backwards compatibility" is now at the top of my list of most wanted features for the next Nintendo system.
 
After skimming through multiple pages of people hissing at a YouTuber like a bunch of vampires confronted by sunlight, "No backwards compatibility" is now at the top of my list of most wanted features for the next Nintendo system.
MVG isn't some rando YouTuber. Feel free to call our bemused annoyance 'hissing', sure.
 
I mean some people clearly overreacted.
I don't think generalizing the whole thread as, "a bunch of vampires confronted by sunlight" helps the situation either. Some people overreacted. Some people were just frustrated.

Generalizations don't help discussions.
 
I mean some people clearly overreacted.
I read a lot of stern rebuttals and jokey sardonic dismissals, including from myself. It's hard enough to gauge tone on the internet so I'm not going to say anyone 'overreacted' in particular. I wouldn't go as far as to say MVG is 'trolling' but I think that's just folks being bewildered at the insistence of this particular narrative. MVG does like to make jokey statements to stir the pot on Twitter but he made a whole video on this topic so this is a specific conversation he wants to have.

The whole thing is just kind of an exasperated reaction to the BC talk as a whole, and I've personally used this thread to vent about it.
 
Microsoft had to spend millions on an entire team that worked on it for years to get BC (and not fully!)

They are valid points, i bet Nintendo and Nvidia worked together and deeply to get this working and perhasp thats why it could have been delayed a few months.

Either that or adding a TX1 next to Drake but I don't see it feasible because โ‚ฌโ‚ฌ and space.

PD: Im in the BC boat btw.
 
I just hate that one of the "GOTO" statements by folks is that Nintendo is greedy and would rather have you pay $70 for a port than to include backwards compatibility, completely ignoring the situation why sometimes backwards compatibility is just not an option, like from Wii U to Switch.
 
Microsoft had to spend millions on an entire team that worked on it for years to get BC (and not fully!)

They are valid points, i bet Nintendo and Nvidia worked together and deeply to get this working and perhasp thats why it could have been delayed a few months.

Either that or adding a TX1 next to Drake but I don't see it feasible because โ‚ฌโ‚ฌ and space.

Do you really think that Nintendo, who is spending hundreds of millions like other companies over the course of years when developing sequels to popular hardware, wouldnโ€™t include the cost of funding for a solution to ensure BC for their next system? Especially when they have a history of offering backwards compatibility for software whether physical or digital?

Iโ€™m sorry but I donโ€™t find these to be points, I find this all to be FUD inducing which is not different from the PS5 BC with the PS4 situation that happened nearly 3 years ago, and that was all WRONG too! And this FUD seems to be working!!!!

!!!!!!
 
I just hate that one of the "GOTO" statements by folks is that Nintendo is greedy and would rather have you pay $70 for a port than to include backwards compatibility, completely ignoring the situation why sometimes backwards compatibility is just not an option, like from Wii U to Switch.
Only a certain metroidman does thatโ€ฆ luckily they arenโ€™t hereโ€ฆ
 
And here we are..... the fabled page 900!

But yeah, I don't think we've been that vehement towards MVG's statements. Personally, I just want more clarity and I hope we can get on the next Nate the Hate or this weekend's Spawncast. I know this is a speculation thread, but I'm kinda getting sick of talking about BC; can we Switch to another topic, like what games we can expect on this thing going forward?
 
I just hate that one of the "GOTO" statements by folks is that Nintendo is greedy and would rather have you pay $70 for a port than to include backwards compatibility, completely ignoring the situation why sometimes backwards compatibility is just not an option, like from Wii U to Switch.
50 If SOC-T239=TRUE
60 GOTO 70
70 $
 
images
 
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maybe we should switch 2 a different topic of conversationโ€ฆ
In terms of resolution, I think people are being extraordinarily pessimistic.

Up to 4TF? DLSS 2.3+? 8-16GB of RAM? Please, this thing should be able to run most Switch-tier games at 4K BEFORE image reconstruction. As some have pointed out if you're going to use DLSS and output a 4K image, you might as well use DLSS all the way to 4K no matter what the rendering resolution is.

In order to achieve 4K after DLSS, Ultra Performance Mode only needs games to hit 720p internally.

Consider a Switch game that currently runs at 720p in TV mode. Hell, let's make it even less favourable, let's go with Bayonetta 2, a Wii U game. Does anyone here remember how beautiful that game was? It was stunning. It IS stunning.

Now imagine a game like that with access to triple, maybe even octuple the raw power. What could that game look like?

Are you imagining that?

Now realise that this device, whatever it is, can run that game at 720p... And output a clean (though of course, not perfect) 4K image, before post processing. Post processing and spacial upscaling goes ON TOP of that.

I have no worries about resolution. Most first party Switch games, should they get patched or ported, should hit near enough 4K without DLSS. Most new games have to reach a piddling 720p with what. 2? 3? Maybe even 4 teraflops of performance? Just 720p, and the output will be 4K?

Why bother worrying when the deck is stacked so severely in its favour. It may not be the fastest console. Or have the cleanest image. But it was built with achieving 4K output first and (almost) everything else second. I mean we can tell that from the fact they're giving the tensor cores and OFA so much die space.

I may grow to have concerns about memory bandwidth, but resolution has never, and never will, be a concern for me with the Switch [Redacted]. It won't blow PS5 out of the water. But I think it WILL blow minds by having games LOOK like PS5 games on a handheld sized device, achieved not by raw grunt, but tricks upon tricks upon tricks.
 
I'm very surprised and disappointed how flippant some here are towards MVG. The question of BC is not at all as trivial as some here think, it was also mentioned by Digital Foundry here (at 22:07 min):

It is obvious that this is a solvable problem, sure. But it may not at the same time come cheap, and then we do not have any experience with current management, whether they prioritize this. BC has not helped the WiiU and contributed to PS3's catastrophic launch price.
 
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Monday ramblings but I was thinking about storage and the file size of ToTK, I was looking at the biggest first party games of the last 3 gen. So for Wii MP Trilogy was the biggest at almost 8GB, Wii U was Smash at almost 16GB and for Switch we have ToTK at 18.2GB (Correct me if I am wrong).

Regardless of how they handle storage, do you see a Nintendo game approaching or close to the 32GB (considering current cartridge models)? Higher fidelity assets will increase the game file no doubt but given how they operate it gonna be interesting to see what they can do with more.

I guarantee that there will not be any controversy or spin when a Mario Sports game has a bigger file size than a Zelda game lol.
 
Your confusing "compression" with "lossy compression." Lossy compression, like a JPEG or MP4, take the original data and drops some information to make the final package smaller.

Compression generally just packs raw data into a smaller format, like a ZIP file. Your trading storage space/speed for CPU speed.

Nintendo will need lossless compression more because they'll be using lossy compression less.
Pedantic streak kicking in, but for the readers, MP4 is a container format, not the actual compression format. What you stick inside the MP4 may or may not be using lossy compression.
...granted, odds are that the MP4 files you encounter in the wild contain lossy compressed video, so not an unreasonable association.
 
In terms of resolution, I think people are being extraordinarily pessimistic.

Up to 4TF? DLSS 2.3+? 8-16GB of RAM? Please, this thing should be able to run most Switch-tier games at 4K BEFORE image reconstruction. As some have pointed out if you're going to use DLSS and output a 4K image, you might as well use DLSS all the way to 4K no matter what the rendering resolution is.

In order to achieve 4K after DLSS, Ultra Performance Mode only needs games to hit 720p internally.

Consider a Switch game that currently runs at 720p in TV mode. Hell, let's make it even less favourable, let's go with Bayonetta 2, a Wii U game. Does anyone here remember how beautiful that game was? It was stunning. It IS stunning.

Now imagine a game like that with access to triple, maybe even octuple the raw power. What could that game look like?

Are you imagining that?

Now realise that this device, whatever it is, can run that game at 720p... And output a clean (though of course, not perfect) 4K image, before post processing. Post processing and spacial upscaling goes ON TOP of that.

I have no worries about resolution. Most first party Switch games, should they get patched or ported, should hit near enough 4K without DLSS. Most new games have to reach a piddling 720p with what. 2? 3? Maybe even 4 teraflops of performance? Just 720p, and the output will be 4K?

Why bother worrying when the deck is stacked so severely in its favour. It may not be the fastest console. Or have the cleanest image. But it was built with achieving 4K output first and (almost) everything else second. I mean we can tell that from the fact they're giving the tensor cores and OFA so much die space.

I may grow to have concerns about memory bandwidth, but resolution has never, and never will, be a concern for me with the Switch [Redacted]. It won't blow PS5 out of the water. But I think it WILL blow minds by having games LOOK like PS5 games on a handheld sized device, achieved not by raw grunt, but tricks upon tricks upon tricks.
this is the kind of hype iโ€™m here for
 
I'm very surprised and disappointed how flippant some here are towards MVG. The question of BC is not at all as trivial as some here think, it was also mentioned by Digital Foundry here:
It is obvious that this is a solvable problem, sure. But it may not at the same time come cheap, and then we do not have any experience with current management, whether they prioritize this. BC has not helped the WiiU and contributed to PS3's catastrophic launch price.
I think most people are aware that there are technical hurdles resulting from the new architecture. None of us expect them to simply flip a switch and enable it.

But these hurdles aren't unlike what other console manufacturers face. They're for the engineers at Nvidia and Nintendo to overcome. The existing similarities between Maxwell and Ampere make it easier. MVG and DF outlining the challenges of BC... yeah, those exist, and they're difficult. So is trying to put tensor, RT, and 1536 CUDA cores in a tablet sized device and programming a low-level graphics API to enable DLSS while ensuring the device has good battery. I assume these are all part of the challenges of developing a new console anyway, one they've already spent at least 3 years working on.

Nintendo has been upfront about (a) BC being easier than ever (b) wanting Nintendo accounts to persist. It would be surprising for them to deprioritize BC for this successful, scalable platform considering these statements and their history. It just makes a lot of business sense to have it.

I also don't really see how, unless a Tegra X1+ is fused into the motherboard, BC -> more expense. For what it's worth, I already expect this to cost $350+ at a minimum. The Wii U and PS3 had other problems besides BC.
 
I don't think generalizing the whole thread as, "a bunch of vampires confronted by sunlight" helps the situation either. Some people overreacted. Some people were just frustrated.

Generalizations don't help discussions.
neither does flippant responses one of which was comparing MVG to SMD. But whatever. We're just gonna do whataboutism and that's just a waste of my time.
I read a lot of stern rebuttals and jokey sardonic dismissals, including from myself. It's hard enough to gauge tone on the internet so I'm not going to say anyone 'overreacted' in particular. I wouldn't go as far as to say MVG is 'trolling' but I think that's just folks being bewildered at the insistence of this particular narrative. MVG does like to make jokey statements to stir the pot on Twitter but he made a whole video on this topic so this is a specific conversation he wants to have.The whole thing is just kind of an exasperated reaction to the BC talk as a whole, and I've personally used this thread to vent about it.
That's fine. If I'm to be honest I wouldn't consider your reaction as an overreaction. I find the BC stuff tiring as well because it has been weird for years. However, MVG's video isn't really that big of a deal. He's finally saying what he's been beating around the bush for quite a while now. I feel like the majority of people griping with it actually didn't listen to what he said. They just saw BC mentioned and it triggered some flippant response. He never said BC wasn't happening or unlikely because of some weird Nintendo reason. From my understanding he was just speculating what Nintendo could do for BC and in the beginning it sounded like he was more or less saying some Switch games may not be BC, which means very little. If Nintendo is doing BC, their games will be BC. Important games will be BC. That's seems obvious just like it seems obvious that a Switch successor will have BC haha.
 
I think most people are aware that there are technical hurdles resulting from the new architecture. None of us expect them to simply flip a switch and enable it.

But these hurdles aren't unlike what other console manufacturers face. They're for the engineers at Nvidia and Nintendo to overcome. The existing similarities between Maxwell and Ampere make it easier. MVG and DF outlining the challenges of BC... yeah, those exist, and they're difficult. So is trying to put tensor, RT, and 1536 CUDA cores in a tablet sized device and programming a low-level graphics API to enable DLSS while ensuring the device has good battery. I assume these are all part of the challenges of developing a new console anyway, one they've already spent at least 3 years working on.

Nintendo has been upfront about (a) BC being easier than ever (b) wanting Nintendo accounts to persist. It would be surprising for them to deprioritize BC for this successful, scalable platform considering these statements and their history. It just makes a lot of business sense to have it.

I also don't really see how, unless a Tegra X1+ is fused into the motherboard, BC -> more expense. For what it's worth, I already expect this to cost $350+ at a minimum. The Wii U and PS3 had other problems besides BC.
Not sure that you've actually watched the snippet from DF I linked to, but this is kinda not true. If your definition of BC on [REDACTED] is 'My Nintendo games work with at most a ready-to-download patch', then I agree that this will likely happen, Nintendo will re-compile and maybe we even get some performance enhancements. But true BC, meaning I can play any non-Nintendo game from either the eShop or my physical cartridge, is harder than on PS5 or XBox.

I am not convinced that those later points are truly reliable since lots of things can change in 6+ years. By those same quotes, you would also predict that a mid-gen refresh is a given. Yet, here we are.
 
Monday ramblings but I was thinking about storage and the file size of ToTK, I was looking at the biggest first party games of the last 3 gen. So for Wii MP Trilogy was the biggest at almost 8GB, Wii U was Smash at almost 16GB and for Switch we have ToTK at 18.2GB (Correct me if I am wrong).

Regardless of how they handle storage, do you see a Nintendo game approaching or close to the 32GB (considering current cartridge models)? Higher fidelity assets will increase the game file no doubt but given how they operate it gonna be interesting to see what they can do with more.

I guarantee that there will not be any controversy or spin when a Mario Sports game has a bigger file size than a Zelda game lol.
Xenoblade Chronicles X was heavier than Smash on WiiU (almost 23GB):

 
this is the kind of hype iโ€™m here for
I'm not even gassing it up, I'm just stating what we know to be the capabilities. People are lowballing it, expectations wise, because they think Nintendo is gonna Nintendo. Not realising that 1, Nintendo Switch was as advanced a gaming handheld as it could be at the time and so will this, naturally, and 2, this is also NVIDIA'S console, this is NVIDIA'S baby, this is NVIDIA LIGHTSPEED'S first party console. Nvidia know AMD has them beat in the console race by raw power because nobody wants Nvidia to make a stationary console. Absurd to think, I feel, that they wouldn't come out swinging with the best portable system they can muster.
 
Not sure that you've actually watched the snippet from DF I linked to, but this is kinda not true. If your definition of BC on [REDACTED] is 'My Nintendo games work with at most a ready-to-download patch', then I agree that this will likely happen, Nintendo will re-compile and maybe we even get some performance enhancements. But true BC, meaning I can play any non-Nintendo game from either the eShop or my physical cartridge, is harder than on PS5 or XBox.
"Aren't unlike" != "as difficult as or easier". Am I wrong to draw a comparison between the hurdles faced by Microsoft/Sony and what Nintendo and Nvidia have to do now? I didn't make an inference about the inherent difficulty because I don't have the technical knowledge to do so, but my stance is unchanged - their engineers most likely understood this 3-4 years ago and have some solution in the works. Could it be more difficult than PS5/Xbox? Sure. I'm not sure what that changes in the end, other than increased dev time and some incompatible titles. Still, I think most folks would be reasonably satisfied with 99% BC i.e. most of their purchases working on the next Switch, like PS4 on PS5 BC.

I couldn't find the portion of the DF podcast you're talking about. If you're referring to the shader binary incompatibility that may necessitate per-game patches, I still think some kind of compatibility layer could be a solution. Like Proton on Steam Deck. @Thraktor provided a good writeup here.

I am not convinced that those later points are truly reliable since lots of things can change in 6+ years. By those same quotes, you would also predict that a mid-gen refresh is a given. Yet, here we are.

Miyamoto's statement about BC and the focus on long-term relationships and console transitions with Nintendo accounts are not 6 year old statements. Don't know what you mean by the mid-gen refresh part. Still, I think BC is a reasonable prediction and I don't see a good reason for them to deprioritize it.

tl;dr Implementing a BC solution is difficult but if they priotized and planned for it then I don't see a reason not to expect it, even if it ends up being 99%
 
What if MVG is playing 4D chess. Guess something that is obviously wrong knowing it would get picked up because of the building hype around Switch 2 news and his stature, and force Nintendo to respond to control the narrative

:unsure:
 
No probs, while we are at it, here is a story from the development, including a SoC design that got scrapped and reworked. It was Sharp running the show apparently which might explain how they got to keep the Sharp cpu.

(Story in comments)
Ah, that was Project Atlantis.
Cool finding.
 
Monday ramblings but I was thinking about storage and the file size of ToTK, I was looking at the biggest first party games of the last 3 gen. So for Wii MP Trilogy was the biggest at almost 8GB, Wii U was Smash at almost 16GB and for Switch we have ToTK at 18.2GB (Correct me if I am wrong).

Regardless of how they handle storage, do you see a Nintendo game approaching or close to the 32GB (considering current cartridge models)? Higher fidelity assets will increase the game file no doubt but given how they operate it gonna be interesting to see what they can do with more.

I guarantee that there will not be any controversy or spin when a Mario Sports game has a bigger file size than a Zelda game lol.
Xenoblade X is 19 GB. Also I thought Metroid Other M might be bigger, but they're within a couple hundred megabytes, at least as downloaded from the Wii U eShop.

Game file size is complicated. Increases in asset fidelity could push things up, but faster loading and additional power could reduce the need to lean on videos, which inflate file size. An upward trend is likely, but the specifics of how it applies are likely to be idiosyncratic.
 
neither does flippant responses one of which was comparing MVG to SMD. But whatever. We're just gonna do whataboutism and that's just a waste of my time.
That I agree with, but I am tone policing too much already so I'd rather someone else call that person out.
 
I've seen some people on this thread mention ray tracing on the Nintendo (REDACTED) I could see it possibly running docked but most definitely not portable (for obvious reasons) do you think having such a big difference in graphical fidelity between docked and undocked is something Nintendo would do? Or do you think they want to keep it more inline with the og switch so the difference isn't so big
 
What if MVG is playing 4D chess. Guess something that is obviously wrong knowing it would get picked up because of the building hype around Switch 2 news and his stature, and force Nintendo to respond to control the narrative

:unsure:
as a company you never respond to obviously wrong stuff if it's not affecting your valuation. this ain't doing shit, so Nintendo ain't even gonna look his way

I've seen some people on this thread mention ray tracing on the Nintendo (REDACTED) I could see it possibly running docked but most definitely not portable (for obvious reasons) do you think having such a big difference in graphical fidelity between docked and undocked is something Nintendo would do? Or do you think they want to keep it more inline with the og switch so the difference isn't so big
RT can be done in portable mode and has been demonstrated. if Nintendo does RT, it's gonna be in both modes, I think
 
I've seen some people on this thread mention ray tracing on the Nintendo (REDACTED) I could see it possibly running docked but most definitely not portable (for obvious reasons) do you think having such a big difference in graphical fidelity between docked and undocked is something Nintendo would do? Or do you think they want to keep it more inline with the og switch so the difference isn't so big
What obvious reasons? There... Aren't... Any reasons.

Plus both modes need feature parity for obvious reasons.
 
The Switch 2 will support ray-tracing, but it's doubtful it's ever used seriously on the Switch 2 until we start getting non-demanding indie games that are built around ray-tracing.

And the RT tools are so bad currently that indie devs building games around ray-tracing is years and years and years away.
 
The Switch 2 will support ray-tracing, but it's doubtful it's ever used seriously on the Switch 2 until we start getting non-demanding indie games that are built around ray-tracing.

And the RT tools are so bad currently that indie devs building games around ray-tracing is years and years and years away.
UE5 will be the most prominent RT tool in many studios repertoire. it works very well as of 5.1. and it's way too early to say what "used seriously" means. I suspect a lot of replacement for screen space effects and Lumen GI for diffuse reflections
 
Pedantic streak kicking in, but for the readers, MP4 is a container format, not the actual compression format. What you stick inside the MP4 may or may not be using lossy compression.
...granted, odds are that the MP4 files you encounter in the wild contain lossy compressed video, so not an unreasonable association.
Did I put MP3 here and think โ€œdo the kids today know what that is?โ€ then change the 3 to a 4 because it was faster?

Yes
 
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The Switch 2 will support ray-tracing, but it's doubtful it's ever used seriously on the Switch 2 until we start getting non-demanding indie games that are built around ray-tracing.

And the RT tools are so bad currently that indie devs building games around ray-tracing is years and years and years away.
Teardown exists, at the very least
 
I've seen some people on this thread mention ray tracing on the Nintendo (REDACTED) I could see it possibly running docked but most definitely not portable (for obvious reasons) do you think having such a big difference in graphical fidelity between docked and undocked is something Nintendo would do? Or do you think they want to keep it more inline with the og switch so the difference isn't so big
If [REDACTED]โ€™s performance difference between docked and handheld looks like the current Switch, RT will be easier in handheld than docked mode, not harder.
 
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Nintendo can do what they always do with BC, include the chip and use it as a coprocessor for the successor.
They will not do that. That would be inefficient and make programming more difficult. Things you want to avoid for a developer friendly handheld like the Switch and its successors.
 
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