StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

[VagrantValmar]

This look like a working code, so it is active. Maybe for play that game in 4K is only necessary to put it in the right hardware. Not only it can confirm a retro with switch 1, but 4K output possible for switch 1 games on the Switch 2.

Just looked a bit into if and the source is NashWeedle which is a confirmed bad source. The guy basically just throws everything at the wall to see what sticks.

 

[Koti]

This isn't anything to do with the Switch itself and rather just the implementation of multiplayer in these games. Netcode is very hard, even for the most experienced developers, and Nintendo's first party developers especially seem to struggle with it.

I like to think the DeNA joint venture (Nintendo Systems) was to improve on that next gen.

 

[Steve]

I like to think the DeNA joint venture was to improve on that.

I always thought the DeNA venture would lead to NSO on Mobile to play older retro games.

Also what you mentioned makes sense.

… also what has Nintendo and DeNA done? Because I’ve never heard of them doing anything.

 

[oldpuck]

I liked Origami King but it was an original game. If you're remaking a GameCube game why can't that game be built from the ground up to fit in the parameters of the hardware? While the original was obviously not HD and any resolution bump would be welcome, the remake halves the frame rate of the original. It seems to me that a remake should improve all graphical features from the original at least moderately, not improved some areas greatly (lighting/textures) while some areas (like framerate) are reduced.

Mario Wonder targets 1080p60 and was built ground up for Switch. Why couldn't changes have been made for ttyd to do the same?

If you're upset about the choice to go 30fps, I get it. But that's not "this game is poorly optimized" which is the first thing you said, and what I was responding to. It isn't a technical failure, it's an intentional choice (which is not the same as saying it's a good choice).

God, I know! How outrageous, right? Nevermind that I get significantly nauseous and dizzy playing 30FPS games and now my favorite game of all time has been remade with its original frame rate chopped in half.

I'm very sorry you struggle with 30fps games. That sucks since 30fps is the industry standard for games which lean into visuals and away from real-time movement. That really sucks and I feel for you, genuinely. I'm sorry it's happened to your favorite game - Zelda is my favorite franchise, and 30fps real time combat it rough - but I'm glad that this particular game already exists in a form you can play

If there was ever a genre that "leans into visuals and away from real time movement", it's a turn based RPG. The last game in this franchise, on this system, set a visual and performance standard that the remake needs to clear in order to be commercial successful. If there was ever a game that it was acceptable to make this kind of tradeoff, it's this game.

There is probably a broader discussion about 60fps being an accessibility issue for folks, and certainly Paper Mario fans who are disappointed. But there isn't a technical question of why it was done this way. Nintendo isn't breaking new ground in low-frame rate games, or delivering a poorly optimized title.

 

[ComradeKoopa]

If you're upset about the choice to go 30fps, I get it. But that's not "this game is poorly optimized" which is the first thing you said, and what I was responding to. It isn't a technical failure, it's an intentional choice (which is not the same as saying it's a good choice).


I'm very sorry you struggle with 30fps games. That sucks since 30fps is the industry standard for games which lean into visuals and away from real-time movement. That really sucks and I feel for you, genuinely. I'm sorry it's happened to your favorite game - Zelda is my favorite franchise, and 30fps real time combat it rough - but I'm glad that this particular game already exists in a form you can play

If there was ever a genre that "leans into visuals and away from real time movement", it's a turn based RPG. The last game in this franchise, on this system, set a visual and performance standard that the remake needs to clear in order to be commercial successful. If there was ever a game that it was acceptable to make this kind of tradeoff, it's this game.

There is probably a broader discussion about 60fps being an accessibility issue for folks, and certainly Paper Mario fans who are disappointed. But there isn't a technical question of why it was done this way. Nintendo isn't breaking new ground in low-frame rate games, or delivering a poorly optimized title.

I do appreciate the empathy. I'm just not wholly convinced that the game couldn't have looked fairly close to their final vision with some compromises while achieving 60FPS. Then again I'm not a developer so who knows? There could've been enormous hurdles that would have greatly affected the intended design if compromised on. Just feeling really disappointed and frustrated, regardless of the nature of the issue.

 

[Jahranimo]

That would certainly help but the crappy textures would need some actual work. Look at how it looks on yuzu at 4K. Yes, it's certainly more pleasant to watch but, ugh, the grayish colors, the crappy coloring, weird lighting, muddy textures, etc. are all still there.

But hey, I'd be happy with 4K60. I just need to that game to be at least a bit better.

I do think most of that is art direction you're not a fan of, I didn't really pay much attention to most of the textures shrug.

 

[oldpuck]

In this 5G era we live in, surely Nintendo can do better with the Switch 2?

Nintendo's netcode sucks. It just does. It's very old, and it's architecture is designed to keep bandwidth costs low in an era of expensive dedicated servers that operated pre-cloud. Nintendo is working pretty openly on a new online infrastructure, but not only will this take time, it's going to have to come on a game by game basis.

… also what has Nintendo and DeNA done? Because I’ve never heard of them doing anything.

Nintendo and DeNA started a company called "Nintendo Systems" to basically rebuild Nintendo's entire online infrastructure. They've done some talks on how they are trying to rewrite Nintendo's spaghetti backends (with different online architectures and stores built for each console), without actually breaking anything for existing customers. The only major user facing change was their recent addition of passkeys to the login service.

 

[Koti]

I always thought the DeNA venture would lead to NSO on Mobile to play older retro games.

Also what you mentioned makes sense.

… also what has Nintendo and DeNA done? Because I’ve never heard of them doing anything.

The Nintendo account we have now was made with cooperation with DeNA Im pretty sure. DeNA is also responsible for most Nintendo mobile games. Nintendo Systems was made for "Research and development, as well as operations to strengthen the digitalization of Nintendo’s business, in addition to the creation of value-added services". Also Nintendo was recently hiring for mobile stuff so you might be right.

 

[Jersh]

Theoretically speaking, could NX2 provide a mode where somehow CPU clocks are increased and (I guess) GPU clocks are decreased? This would allow to keep Switch temps and battery comsuption in check while increasing the chances of these CPU demanding/limited games to be ported. Obviously this would be at the cost of visual fidelity but might be worth it?

Theoretically Nintendo could provide a lot more performance profiles than they do. To my knowledge, this is what's available for the current Switch:

Mode	CPU Clock	GPU Clock	RAM Clock
Undocked 1	1020 MHz	307 MHz	1331 MHz
Undocked 2	1020 MHz	384 MHz	1331 MHz
Undocked 3	1020 MHz	460 MHz	1331 MHz
Docked	1020 MHz	768 MHz	1600 MHz
CPU Boost	1785 MHz	76 MHz	1600 MHz

As you can see, developers do have a little bit of control over system clocks for the first time on a Nintendo device. And a CPU boost already exists; but it's designed to help with loading scenes where the game isn't drawing anything, shooting the GPU clock way down to 76 MHz. That mode is actually identical between handheld and docked modes.

Theoretically they could extend that further and provide more in-between profiles, though I personally doubt they will. Games that are struggling on the PS5's CPU aren't going to do well on T239 no matter how much GPU you sacrifice.

 

[TomNookYankees]

Not sure how to embed a Mastodon post here but...

https://fedi.rib.gay/notes/9tlrdbv9bckd5711

This and the ease with which modders were able to get 60FPS patch working...... Yeah I'm becoming more optimistic about boost mode on Switch 2.

 

[Steve]

I do appreciate the empathy. I'm just not wholly convinced that the game couldn't have looked fairly close to their final vision with some compromises while achieving 60FPS. Then again I'm not a developer so who knows? There could've been enormous hurdles that would have greatly affected the intended design if compromised on. Just feeling really disappointed and frustrated, regardless of the nature of the issue.

I think one of the reason the game not being 60fps is mostly because the developers last three games, were all 30fps and wanted to focus on the graphics.

There’s a nice tweet from a developer who mentioned the hurdle of either focusing on stable 60fps or 30fps, since at the end both game had a deadline.



But the 30fps and 60fps are always interesting, since in my opinion it’ll always depend on the game, like a RPG with 30fps and a great art style is more than enough, meanwhile a realistic looking game at 30fps makes me feel iffy, a good example would be DD2 and most PS5 quality mode.

But at the end I’ll always prefer 60fps, but it that option isn’t viable, then that’s that.

Also i understand your complained, since I’ve had that happen, when I play realistic looking game at 30fps.

 

[Serif]

Since I've been building up a handheld collection I went ahead and compared the Switch's thickness with Nintendo's past handhelds.

It really is remarkable just how slim it is in proportion to its massive power leap.

It's thinner than a closed GBA SP, DSi, original 3DS and New 3DS XL, about as thin as the bottom half of the New 3DS when open. About as thin as the top part of a Game Boy Color.

Nintendo has been consistent with having their handhelds be slim after the OG Game Boy, I have no doubt the next one will continue this trend. The Switch Duo is going to feel futuristic with the level of performance it's cramming into its footprint.

 

[PatrykPrime]

Nintendo's netcode sucks. It just does. It's very old, and it's architecture is designed to keep bandwidth costs low in an era of expensive dedicated servers that operated pre-cloud. Nintendo is working pretty openly on a new online infrastructure, but not only will this take time, it's going to have to come on a game by game basis.


Nintendo and DeNA started a company called "Nintendo Systems" to basically rebuild Nintendo's entire online infrastructure. They've done some talks on how they are trying to rewrite Nintendo's spaghetti backends (with different online architectures and stores built for each console), without actually breaking anything for existing customers. The only major user facing change was their recent addition of passkeys to the login service.

I have high hopes that this company will lead to Nintendo's online functionality and services to be actually somewhat comparable to the competition. Fingers crossed the Switch 2 will have significant improvements in this regard.

 

[Concernt]

Have you got those on hand? I'm curious.

Not all of them, but I remember one very distinctly. I did misremember: it's 2304p, above 4K but technically not 5K.



Because of how "X" bandwidth and device optimisation works, it doesn't always display. I'll see if this works:

Spoiler: large image

 

[LinkURL]

Are you talking to the people here or Nintendo???

They obviously made the original 60 fps for a reason.

The fact of the matter is that 60 fps makes everything better. You’re allowed to think it’s not a big deal though while others are allowed to think it is meaningful.

Reason for TTYD being 60 FPS: The graphics allowed this framebudget

Reason for the TTYD remake to be 30 FPS: The graphics did not allow this framebudget

If Nintendo thought performance was more interesting than graphics in this case, do you know what would have happened?

 

[LiC]

Nintendo's netcode sucks. It just does. It's very old, and it's architecture is designed to keep bandwidth costs low in an era of expensive dedicated servers that operated pre-cloud. Nintendo is working pretty openly on a new online infrastructure, but not only will this take time, it's going to have to come on a game by game basis.

"Nintendo's netcode" (a combination minsnomer/buzzword) has nothing to do with online architecture, because as is often criticized, it is almost always peer-to-peer. The only factor that practically matters then is the reliability of the connections between players, and that is what actually sucks, and causes the problems in games like Smash and Splatoon.

The amount of casual misinformation on this subject is immense and a pet peeve of mine. But is it even an appropriate topic for this thread? It doesn't have anything to do with hardware.

 

[Concernt]

Since I've been building up a handheld collection I went ahead and compared the Switch's thickness with Nintendo's past handhelds.

It really is remarkable just how slim it is in proportion to its massive power leap.

It's thinner than a closed GBA SP, DSi, original 3DS and New 3DS XL, about as thin as the bottom half of the New 3DS when open. About as thin as the top part of a Game Boy Color.

Nintendo has been consistent with having their handhelds be slim after the OG Game Boy, I have no doubt the next one will continue this trend. The Switch Duo is going to feel futuristic with the level of performance it's cramming into its footprint.

Being the same thickness but physically larger will make it appear thinner, which would be... Well, even though I am optimistic, even to me, I find it hard to imagine a device that looks so slim delivering Series S-esque performance, and possibly 4K resolutions at output. It just. Doesn't track right in my mind, even though I know it's physically possible.

 

[Steve]

Being the same thickness but physically larger will make it appear thinner, which would be... Well, even though I am optimistic, even to me, I find it hard to imagine a device that looks so slim delivering Series S-esque performance, and possibly 4K resolutions at output. It just. Doesn't track right in my mind, even though I know it's physically possible.

Maybe with a 4 TSMC it’s somewhat plausible

 

[eye0h]

I leave for 10 hours and we're getting c++ info omg

 

[Lugia667]

I leave for 10 hours and we're getting c++ leaks omg

eh? is this from the Paper Mario datamine or something else?

 

[Concernt]

Maybe with a 4 TSMC it’s somewhat plausible

Somewhat? No, I wouldn't say that. TSMC 4N is something I think is likely, following on from thet, I believe that this proposed performance and formfactor is actually more likely than not. It's just that I find it difficult to imagine as 'real', despite being of the opinion that it's highly likely based on what I've seen here.

 

[ILikeFeet]

I leave for 10 hours and we're getting c++ leaks omg

if you're talking about Paper Mario, it's not really leaks

 

[eye0h]

eh? is this from the Paper Mario datamine or something else?

Yeah just the paper mario thing, nothing thaat interesting was found so far though

 

[dolpic]

"Nintendo's netcode" (a combination minsnomer/buzzword) has nothing to do with online architecture, because as is often criticized, it is almost always peer-to-peer. The only factor that practically matters then is the reliability of the connections between players, and that is what actually sucks, and causes the problems in games like Smash and Splatoon.

The amount of casual misinformation on this subject is immense and a pet peeve of mine. But is it even an appropriate topic for this thread? It doesn't have anything to do with hardware.

I don't think this is right. What causes the problems in Smash is the fact that it uses bad and outdated delay-based netcode instead of modern rollback netcode. You can go hop on any number of p2p fighting games with much better netcode than Smash and feel the difference immediately

 

[Evil Lucario]

TTYD HD getting a 60fps patch on Switch 2 is ultimately pretty meaningless in my eyes because the frame data is already irrevocably changed. Gamers actually don't give a shit about game logic being correct, because they'll praise the hell out of the Mario 64/Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask recomps even though raising the framerate there does jack shit. All the graphics and animations are simply interpolated. That in particular is actually a case of placebo without anything backing it up, and then those same people will argue that TTYD NEEDS 60fps? Nah man, people will adjust to the new timings.

Really though, I'm disappointed it is indeed 30fps, but that's because they inevitably made changes to make Action Commands easier. So people arguing 30fps is harder are ultimately wrong - they should be upset that it'll make the game EASIER due to the changes with the frame data. A 60fps patch would still carry over that new frame data and therefore be pretty different from the original regardless.

 

[ILikeFeet]

I don't think this is right. What causes the problems in Smash is the fact that it uses bad and outdated delay-based netcode instead of modern rollback netcode. You can go hop on any number of p2p fighting games with much better netcode than Smash and feel the difference immediately

you contradict yourself a bit. if there are p2p games with better netcode then not using rollback isn't the problem

 

[eye0h]

if you're talking about Paper Mario, it's not really leaks

Yeah Idk why I said leaks, I'm so tired

Also anybody seen this?



People are so quick with these patches lol

 

[VagrantValmar]

I do think most of that is art direction you're not a fan of, I didn't really pay much attention to most of the textures shrug.

You're probably right but there's also some really muddy texture work that wasn't there in B2.
Whatever the case, I just want any kind of upgrade for B3. ANYTHING.

 

[VagrantValmar]

This and the ease with which modders were able to get 60FPS patch working...... Yeah I'm becoming more optimistic about boost mode on Switch 2.

It's not even "modders" anymore. It's just a homebrew with an almost "all size fits all approach" that let's you change the target framerate for almost all switch games.
It's a menu similar to the quick home button menu that you open in almost any game and you set your desired framerate there. I believe it's called fps locker.

"Nintendo's netcode" (a combination minsnomer/buzzword) has nothing to do with online architecture, because as is often criticized, it is almost always peer-to-peer. The only factor that practically matters then is the reliability of the connections between players, and that is what actually sucks, and causes the problems in games like Smash and Splatoon.

The amount of casual misinformation on this subject is immense and a pet peeve of mine. But is it even an appropriate topic for this thread? It doesn't have anything to do with hardware.

Same here man. It especially annoys me when people think that "you pay for PS and Xbox servers but not on Nintendo" as if there weren't a bunch of p2p games there.

TTYD HD getting a 60fps patch on Switch 2 is ultimately pretty meaningless in my eyes because the frame data is already irrevocably changed. Gamers actually don't give a shit about game logic being correct, because they'll praise the hell out of the Mario 64/Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask recomps even though raising the framerate there does jack shit. All the graphics and animations are simply interpolated. That in particular is actually a case of placebo without anything backing it up, and then those same people will argue that TTYD NEEDS 60fps? Nah man, people will adjust to the new timings.

Really though, I'm disappointed it is indeed 30fps, but that's because they inevitably made changes to make Action Commands easier. So people arguing 30fps is harder are ultimately wrong - they should be upset that it'll make the game EASIER due to the changes with the frame data. A 60fps patch would still carry over that new frame data and therefore be pretty different from the original regardless.

Interporlated or not, I think people just like how it looks. I don't think it's too deep.

I don't think this is right. What causes the problems in Smash is the fact that it uses bad and outdated delay-based netcode instead of modern rollback netcode. You can go hop on any number of p2p fighting games with much better netcode than Smash and feel the difference immediately

Rollback has a higher computational cost and probably wouldn't work on smash, but there's people smarter than me and with actual dev experience with rollback here that are better suited to chime in.

 

[Evil Lucario]

Interporlated or not, I think people just like how it looks. I don't think it's too deep.

This gets lost on me when they want to complain about game feel and responsiveness, which is a different ballgame from liking the look of higher framerates. Which is totally fine, but people really have no idea what they're talking about lol.

 

[kingman]

TTYD HD getting a 60fps patch on Switch 2 is ultimately pretty meaningless in my eyes because the frame data is already irrevocably changed. Gamers actually don't give a shit about game logic being correct, because they'll praise the hell out of the Mario 64/Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask recomps even though raising the framerate there does jack shit. All the graphics and animations are simply interpolated. That in particular is actually a case of placebo without anything backing it up, and then those same people will argue that TTYD NEEDS 60fps? Nah man, people will adjust to the new timings.

I mean...I've seen videos of 60 fps Mario Sunshine and while it might not be perfect compared to a native 60 fps Mario Sunshine, I feel it gets the job done.

 

[Look over there]

Cortex-A78 Efficiency Comparison Table by Process // Samsung Foundry

Cortex-A78 제품군 Specint06 결과 분석.

- 엑시노스1480 specint06 결과가 올라와서 같은 아키텍처쓰는 제품들 IPC, 전성비(power efficiency)를 비교해봤음. 변수에 대한 보정없이 아키텍처가 같다는 것만으로 IPC, 전성비 값 비교하면서 본인 입맛대로 결론내리는 경우가 많은데 바로잡을 필요가 있음. - 테스트 결과 소스 (https://twitter.com/negativeonehero/status/1775866791656603728) 엑시노스1480 테스트 세트 전력에서 아이들 전력을 빼야 코어 전력을 알 수 있는데 엑시노스1480은 아이들...

gamma0burst.tistory.com

How does it compare to PS5?

Gosh darn it, I didn't want to bring this up, but since it's come up, I'll have to touch upon it, don't I?

First, I do have to complain, why does it have be SPEC 2006 instead of 2017? (I probably know why)

Alright, intro: you follow PC hardware enough, you'll see assorted CPU benchmarks.
Cinebench - free, and I'm under the impression that it's really easy to use as well? Very common to see. It's one specific workload though, so do not use it to gauge 'overall/general purpose' performance. Not all reviewers are necessarily great at getting that across to the audience...
Interestingly enough, Cinebench is regarded as actually having practical value as a test of your cooling. You see, it turns out that Cinebench is a realistically heavy, all core, AVX workload.

Geekbench - free and is designed to be a collection of workloads to represent real world, general purpose usage. Also common to see. Thumbs up for it as long as we remember that it's for 'general purpose computers' and not 'dedicated gaming devices'.
BTW, has anybody else paid attention to the 4700S and 4800S scores? (4700S is the PS5's chip with disabled igpu while the 4800S is the Series X counterpart)
For those who do, did you notice that the 4800S tends to score slightly higher in single core? And if so, have you ever wondered why? My impression is that the main difference lies in a couple of specific tests that turn out to be SIMD (Single Input Instruction, Multiple Data; ie vectors) heavy. And I think that would line up with a specific customization that was done for the Zen 2 core in the PS5. There was a bit of cost optimization done; the FPU is cut down by a bit. I think that the cuts were mainly to SIMD capability?
(click here for Chipsandcheese's interpretation of the PS5's FPU)
And one last bit, in the category of 'who else on the internet would make this specific leap in logic?': Mark Cerny deciding that this cut to SIMD capability will presumably not adversely affect the PS5 leads me to think that the odds will be lower for the A78's 2x128 bit fp/vector throughput being an issue for games.

SPEC - this one is regarded as the industry standard. Relative to the above two, you don't see anywhere near as many outlets use this suite. Why? Well, a SPEC2017 license costs $1000 USD. And for a lot of mainstream outlets, given their target demographics, that's a thousand dollars that won't move the needle. Cause hey, sometimes we consumers implicitly encourage the garbage we get, right?
So yea, I can believe that the poster of the SPECint2006 scores not spending for a 2017 license. Why the lack of floating point though?

Alright, one last reminder: SPEC2006 is old. It has been deprecated by 2017. Now to post the image...
Source: https://www.anandtech.com/show/1621...e-review-5950x-5900x-5800x-and-5700x-tested/9

Snapdragon 865+ should be using the A77. The A78 should be about +7% over that.
Reminder that when looking at the 3950X, that's chiplet Zen 2. Therefore, a given core would have access to 16 MB of L3 cache. The PS5/Series use monolithic Zen 2; a given core there would have access to 4 MB of L3 cache*. That would very likely have an impact on this benchmark. I say that because I think that there's a noticeable difference between chiplet and monolithic Zen 3 SPEC2017 scores elsewhere (for Zen 3, it'd be 32 MB vs 16 MB).
I should note: I think that Sunny Cove (the i7 1065G7) and Willow Cove (the i7 1185G7) have unusual scores in that chart. If you scroll down far enough, you'll see some SPEC2017 scores, and Sunny Cove/Willow Cove do better in integer there than they did in 2016. And of course, Willow Cove's floating point score for 2006 is bizarrely low. Willow Cove, being a refinement of Sunny Cove, shouldn't differ too much from the latter.

It's fine enough to observe SPEC2006 scores and file it away in your head. I just don't particularly like using them, given the awareness that they've been deprecated for years, yaknow?
Shame that I can't find normalized SPEC2017 scores for ARM cores

*for those who joined in the time I've been gone; one of the reoccurring points I'll bring up with regards to the PS5/Series is that I think that the 4 MB of L3 cache per CCX is a sore spot.
I like to imply that the PS5/Series' CPU is sort of a 'paper tiger', if you will. ~3.5 ghz of Zen 2 sounds great, right? Now, I'm not saying that it's bad. It's still plenty fine! But generally speaking, when people read or hear 'Zen 2', they're thinking 'desktop Zen 2'. They're thinking of 'chiplet Zen 2 with the 16 MB of L3 cache per CCX paired with DDR memory'. They're not thinking of 'monolithic, therefore L3 cache reduced to 4 MB per CCX with GDDR memory, whose latency can potentially further ding the CPU's performance'. There's a lot of opportunity for wasted clock cycles there, relative to preconceptions.

 

[kingman]

Was randomly browsing the youtubes and I came across the old Wii U tech demos. It's honestly kind of a shame Nintendo doesn't do these anymore. Even if on a lot of occasions games don't look as nice as them, they're still pretty cool to see the potential of a system imo:





With the Zelda demo in particular, I loved the lighting and reflections in the temple. Maybe we can get something like that with the next one.

 

[Concernt]

Was randomly browsing the youtubes and I came across the old Wii U tech demos. It's honestly kind of a shame Nintendo doesn't do these anymore. Even if on a lot of occasions games don't look as nice as them, they're still pretty cool to see the potential of a system imo:





With the Zelda demo in particular, I loved the lighting and reflections in the temple. Maybe we can get something like that with the next one.

We know where that Zelda demo ended up: Breath of the Wild, using the processing used in that room alone they made it show us an entire world with 'just' a Wii U - and then taking it on the go, the first first party game confirmed and shown for Nintendo Switch. We know with reasonable certainty of the tech demo for their next system, Breath of the Wild, 'U-King-O', where they show how they've gotten that world to load instantly, render at sixty frames per second, and a full 4K resolution, without sacrificing on portability to do so.

Hopefully, all going well, we'll see that in action, and hopefully, all going well, all current owners of Breath of the Wild will have the chance to experience it on the new system by just updating their existing copy.

Another tech demo for this device was the Unreal Engine 5 Matrix demo, which is notable because that was one of those jaw dropping demos on PS5 when it came out, and Nintendo appears poised to launch a device capable of running that same software, that happens to also be portable.

I'm pretty happy with that, even if I do hope they're made public soon.

 

[Evil Lucario]

I mean...I've seen videos of 60 fps Mario Sunshine and while it might not be perfect compared to a native 60 fps Mario Sunshine, I feel it gets the job done.

You can actually run Super Mario Sunshine on a Wii or Wii U at 60fps with hacks and without Dolphin so this is an interesting case. Uncapping the framerate on GameCube causes nasty framerate drops in heavy instances like Pinna Park. I'm unsure if that hack does end up changing the game logic, though.

 

[Steve]

Man… I’m quite stunned we’ve yet heard any leaks about the Switch 2 Dev-Kit.

With the exception of random people over the internet mentioning they ,,know it’’.

Like where’s my goat Ubisoft and their usual hacks.

Also would the Switch 2 be like a base PS4 on handheld? Or would be somewhere in the middle of PS4 and PS4 Pro.

 

[Dekuman]

Yeah Idk why I said leaks, I'm so tired

Also anybody seen this?



People are so quick with these patches lol

so removing the frame limiter? is it stable 60 fps or unstable 60?

 

[MadMarvainy]

GTA VI will be skyrim moment for switch 2 not baldurs gate 3 lol, GTA VI will be the most alive,interactive,immersive Game And Opsn World in history of gaming

Skyrim dropping on Switch in 2017 is nowhere near GTA VI releasing on Switch 2 day one or even if the port came years down the line.

GTA VI on Switch 2 would be up there with the most impressive ports of all time-- bookmark this if it happens. If that drops on Switch 2, there should be almost no excuse for other major 3rd parties to drop on Switch 2 barring some logistical reasons and resource constraints. But on the tech side? There would be little to no reasons. Now... I am not expecting GTA VI despite whatever rumors pop up. I will believe it when I see it.

To further this discussion; Witcher 3 being on Switch was far more impressive than Skyrim. Skyrim was a PS3/360 game that didn't need much VRAM on top of the Switch having better tech than PS3/360. So it being on Switch was a no brainer. That's why people are mentioning Elden Ring and BG3, more so Elden Ring since BG3 wasn't released on last-gen machines but I think there's a solid chance we get it because Divinity OS2 came to Switch and it has the RAM to do it. Even though the Switch is a couple of generations ahead, Elden Ring was made with PS4/XB1 in mind, so this is why people bring it up as the Skyrim of Switch 2. Skyrim was made with PS3/360 in scope. GTA VI doesn't fall anywhere in this equation and is less likely to happen.

The expectation should be PS4-level games with some PS5-level games, expecting them all to drop on Switch 2 would be a mistake. I am certain it will get more modern-day AAA games than the Switch for sure though. Like I said, bookmark this, if GTA VI releases on Switch 2. I will fly to Rockstar headquarters and shake Mr. Rockstar's hand.

 

[ComradeKoopa]

Really though, I'm disappointed it is indeed 30fps, but that's because they inevitably made changes to make Action Commands easier. So people arguing 30fps is harder are ultimately wrong - they should be upset that it'll make the game EASIER due to the changes with the frame data. A 60fps patch would still carry over that new frame data and therefore be pretty different from the original regardless.

Do we actually know the timing for action commands? A developer on here suggested tying mechanics to frames is outdated (or something like that) and it's possible the game instead polls the controller at a higher rate, making it possible the timing is the same. I don't know much about it though.

 

[darthdiablo]

Man… I’m quite stunned we’ve yet heard any leaks about the Switch 2 Dev-Kit.

With the exception of random people over the internet mentioning they ,,know it’’.

Like where’s my goat Ubisoft and their usual hacks.

Also would the Switch 2 be like a base PS4 on handheld? Or would be somewhere in the middle of PS4 and PS4 Pro.

What kind of leaks are you hoping to hear about Switch 2 devkits? Because those have been showing up in shipment data as "Carpa X1" and later as "IWOH".

If you're wondering about whether or not developers have Switch 2 devkits, no question, they're out there.

 

[yu?]

What kind of leaks are you hoping to hear about Switch 2 devkits? Because those have been showing up in shipment data as "Carpa X1" and later as "IWOH".

If you're wondering about whether or not developers have Switch 2 devkits, no question, they're out there.

theyre 8ing for that dev unit pic

 

[darthdiablo]

theyre 8ing for that dev unit pic

Ahh yeah. Tricky cuz of NDAs probably. We will get a leak eventually (we have pics of ADEV, EDEV, etc)

 

[carbvan]

so removing the frame limiter? is it stable 60 fps or unstable 60?

Unstable. The base game doesn't even run at 30 all the time. You need to overclock the Switch as well to hit a relatively smooth framerate with that mod.

 

[MP!]

You're probably right but there's also some really muddy texture work that wasn't there in B2.
Whatever the case, I just want any kind of upgrade for B3. ANYTHING.

I’m pretty sure it’s normal map compression mixed with perhaps low res texturing

Whatever the engine is doing to the textures it’s murdering the image quality

 

[eye0h]

Unstable. The base game doesn't even run at 30 all the time. You need to overclock the Switch as well to hit a relatively smooth framerate with that mod.

It does run on emulators tho 0.0

 

[oldpuck]

"Nintendo's netcode" (a combination minsnomer/buzzword) has nothing to do with online architecture, because as is often criticized, it is almost always peer-to-peer.

I live in a world where "architecture" refers to the overall design of a system, even if that system includes components you don't directly own. Nintendo standard libraries for managing those peer to peer connections are, indeed, of very old vintage, and peer-to-peer networking was a pretty smart design choice when you had to build or rent colocation facilities, maintain your own hardware, and couldn't reasonably be expected to host facilities geo-located near your customers.

By the mid Wii era, packet shaping on ISPs was rampant, especially on peer-to-peer connections. Instability isn't just a product of the connection of your peers, but their particular ISPs willingness to strangle traffic that doesn't run over port 443. Meanwhile, it's entirely possible with cloud services to have geolocated setups where you're only paying full price for compute capacity during that region's peak hours.

A peer to peer setup still might make sense if you really need to chance latency down to the ground, but Nintendo's common approach is a design out of 2005. UDP proxies for packet shaped networks would turn a number of "disconnected players" into "players with not so great roundtrip latencies"

The amount of casual misinformation on this subject is immense and a pet peeve of mine. But is it even an appropriate topic for this thread? It doesn't have anything to do with hardware.

I'll admit to using casual language when I said "netcode" back there, and sorry for tripping your pet peeve But I think "& Technology" in the thread title makes discussions of improvements to the cloud services more on topic than "30fps Paper Mario."

 

[gnetc]

Nintendo's netcode sucks. It just does. It's very old, and it's architecture is designed to keep bandwidth costs low in an era of expensive dedicated servers that operated pre-cloud. Nintendo is working pretty openly on a new online infrastructure, but not only will this take time, it's going to have to come on a game by game basis.


Nintendo and DeNA started a company called "Nintendo Systems" to basically rebuild Nintendo's entire online infrastructure. They've done some talks on how they are trying to rewrite Nintendo's spaghetti backends (with different online architectures and stores built for each console), without actually breaking anything for existing customers. The only major user facing change was their recent addition of passkeys to the login service.

I’m assuming most of these changes are things that we would never notice?

 

[TomNookYankees]

Unstable. The base game doesn't even run at 30 all the time. You need to overclock the Switch as well to hit a relatively smooth framerate with that mod.

To be clear, according to DF's test it's perfectly stable 30FPS.

 

[oldpuck]

Geekbench - free and is designed to be a collection of workloads to represent real world, general purpose usage. Also common to see. Thumbs up for it as long as we remember that it's for 'general purpose computers' and not 'dedicated gaming devices'.

My day job is basically just performance analysis and benchmarking, albeit for systems very different from a gaming device. Just want to pop in to say that Geekbench is a very good benchmark. Which is not to say it's always useful in the way people want to use it, but it hits a lot of the high points of "good benchmark design."

It uses a mix of workloads, it's workloads are (mostly) adapted from real world code, it breaks out it's subtests, and it separates threaded from non-threaded workloads. The number of benchmarks that screw this up - especially "adapted from real world code" - is embarassing.

The biggest knock against Geekbench are that it does a lot of image manipulation in its tests, and image manipulation loves SIMD, but it's basically impossible to write efficient SIMD code in C. You break out either inline assembler, or some third mini language to write SIMD portions specific to the CPU architecture. But at that point, it's very difficult to get an apples to apples comparison for CPUs that differ in arch. Which especially sucks for comparing ARM to x86, as we often do here.

The second biggest knock is that its threading benchmarks are likely not as good as the single threaded ones, as they seem to be pretty inefficient rewrites of the single threaded benchmarks, in a threaded wrapper. Real world benchmarks > synthetic benchmarks, and this design pushes you heavily in a "just generate numbers" direction.

TL;DR Geekbench is probably the best we're gonna get for getting something that looks like a gaming workload that has lots of data in the wild on systems we care to compare, but we should still heavy grain of salt the results.

 

[Shoe]

TTYD HD getting a 60fps patch on Switch 2 is ultimately pretty meaningless in my eyes because the frame data is already irrevocably changed. Gamers actually don't give a shit about game logic being correct, because they'll praise the hell out of the Mario 64/Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask recomps even though raising the framerate there does jack shit. All the graphics and animations are simply interpolated. That in particular is actually a case of placebo without anything backing it up, and then those same people will argue that TTYD NEEDS 60fps? Nah man, people will adjust to the new timings.

Really though, I'm disappointed it is indeed 30fps, but that's because they inevitably made changes to make Action Commands easier. So people arguing 30fps is harder are ultimately wrong - they should be upset that it'll make the game EASIER due to the changes with the frame data. A 60fps patch would still carry over that new frame data and therefore be pretty different from the original regardless.

Don’t see why that would matter. If the normal guard action commands take 6 frames at 60 FPS in the original, make them 3 at 30 FPS. If the superguards take 2 frames ar 60 FPS, make them 1 at 30 FPS, etc.