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Discussion Edward Snowden swears allegiance to Russia and receives Russian passport, according to his lawyer

I can't imagine he was given much of a choice. Next thing you know they will be sending him to the frontlines.
 
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And most importantly, under the Constitution of Russia, he can no longer be extradited to a foreign state.
Click to expand...
I mean... yeah. If I blew up my country's domestic surveillance apparatus and would be wanted without any guarantee of due process... I'd probably side with anyone who could aid me in not getting prosecuted, even if it's a raving mad lunatic authoritarian.
 
Well, if he's lucky he might even get away with just having an all expenses paid ... Some expenses paid trip to Ukraine
 
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Koren Lesthe said:
People forgiving him and calling him "King" are quick to forgive that he have been sucking Putin's cock for months since the Ukraine was invaded.

But yeah sure, all hail to him.
Click to expand...
Just so you are aware, "We forgive you, King" is a tongue and cheek joke, maybe chill a bit. No one is going to bat for this dude.
 
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Koren Lesthe said:
People forgiving him and calling him "King" are quick to forgive that he have been sucking Putin's cock for months since the Ukraine was invaded.

But yeah sure, all hail to him.
Click to expand...
I'm sure you would be quick to volunteer for extradition to the US for years of torture if you ever had the opportunity to expose American crimes.
 
Monster Mash said:
Forgiving him for what? Can you cite where he's been "sucking Putin's cock for months"?
Click to expand...


Al Jazeera has a healthy take on the subject:

www.aljazeera.com

The trouble with Edward Snowden

The whistleblower has readily spoken up on many things, except on Putin’s war.
www.aljazeera.com www.aljazeera.com

On November 10, Snowden blasted the Biden administration as “opportunistic serpents” for suggesting, apparently, that the imploding crypto currency industry requires regulation.

When he is challenged to denounce the Russian president’s wholesale destruction of Ukraine, Snowden prefers, it seems, not only to adopt euphemisms but to argue that his reticence to call Putin an opportunistic serpent, for example, is an act of “humility”.


“I’ve already expressed my opposition to the fighting in Ukraine, and pray it ends soon. The difference between us is that when I realized that sharing my thoughts on the matter did more harm than good, I found the humility to stop,” Snowden wrote on October 23.
Click to expand...

It is instructive to note, I think, that Snowden has failed to use that blunt instrument even to scold his patron, Putin, by name for turning Ukraine into a killing field month after hellish month.

If Snowden – who lauds others for speaking the “hard truth” – were moved finally to call a war criminal a war criminal, his belated indictment would, I suspect, receive more than “appropriate” coverage.
Click to expand...

He blasted the US for being a surveillance state that covers up war crimes, then went and claimed sanctuary in a country committing actual war crimes, and can't even bring himself to address the hypocrisy.
 
I think if you demand someone die to make a point, you need to be willing to sacrifice yourself for that point. What's stopping the writer from traveling to Russia and calling out Putin? Their arrest would certainly make the news.
 
JazzPotatoes said:
Click to expand...

Hold on, saying that war mongering is grotesque is "sucking Putin's cock?" Stop being ridiculous. The article you posted is an opinion piece dithering about how he's condemned Russia and the war on twitter, but not enough for the author's tastes.

Also, what's this all about?
JazzPotatoes said:
He blasted the US for being a surveillance state that covers up war crimes, then went and claimed sanctuary in a country committing actual war crimes, and can't even bring himself to address the hypocrisy.
Click to expand...
"actual" war crimes? This implies that US war crimes are somehow fake, or less real or atrocious than those of the Russian military. I would like you to explain this, because that's extremely fucked up.

Also, can't emphasize this enough because every time a new Snowden thread gets made a bunch of people come down with amnesia, he is not in Russia by his own choice.

The US government, the same ones who don't actually do war crimes apparently, created this situation to punish him for revealing something else horrific they did.
 
Monster Mash said:
Hold on, saying that war mongering is grotesque is "sucking Putin's cock?" Stop being ridiculous.
Click to expand...

That tweet is from February this year: Snowden was trying to make the argument that the "media" are pushing for war, when at that moment in time, Putin was mobilizing hundreds of thousands of troops along the border to invade Ukraine.

Monster Mash said:
The article you posted is an opinion piece dithering about how he's condemned Russia and the war on twitter, but not enough for the author's tastes.
Click to expand...

He hasn't condemned Russia. That's the point. He's made some general points about how war is bad, while refusing to actually come out and criticize or take a stand against Putin and his actions.

You know who else thinks war is bad? Putin. That's why he doesn't call it war, he calls it a "special operation"
Monster Mash said:
Also, what's this all about?

"actual" war crimes? This implies that US war crimes are somehow fake, or less real or atrocious than those of the Russian military. I would like you to explain this, because that's extremely fucked up.
Click to expand...

Actual war crimes as in, the war crimes in Ukraine perpetrated by Russia are real, genuine and documented. That's all that statement means.


Monster Mash said:
Also, can't emphasize this enough because every time a new Snowden thread gets made a bunch of people come down with amnesia, he is not in Russia by his own choice.

The US government, the same ones who don't actually do war crimes apparently, created this situation to punish him for revealing something else horrific they did.
Click to expand...

At this point, Snowden has a choice. He can either choose to return to the US, or he can stay in Russia. If he chooses to return to the US, then yes, he will likely face trial for his actions, but at least he'll be consistent in his arguments.

If he stays in Russia, then he will be a hypocrite who calls out war crimes for one government, but refuses to do so against another that actually benefits him.
 
Monster Mash said:
Hold on, saying that war mongering is grotesque is "sucking Putin's cock?" Stop being ridiculous. The article you posted is an opinion piece dithering about how he's condemned Russia and the war on twitter, but not enough for the author's tastes.

Also, what's this all about?

"actual" war crimes? This implies that US war crimes are somehow fake, or less real or atrocious than those of the Russian military. I would like you to explain this, because that's extremely fucked up.

Also, can't emphasize this enough because every time a new Snowden thread gets made a bunch of people come down with amnesia, he is not in Russia by his own choice.

The US government, the same ones who don't actually do war crimes apparently, created this situation to punish him for revealing something else horrific they did.
Click to expand...

I wasnt going to post in this thread, bc while Snowden is in Russia bc of the US and it's in his own interest to shut the fuck up about the Ukraine War, it's clear that no one needs to take his opinions about anything seriously anymore. Not sure what there is to discuss. Ed, It's cool you exposed the NSA and now it's ok to stop tweeting, we get it that you can't say what you mean and you've compromised your morals for your life. Most of us would do the same and if you think you wouldn't, you ve lived a charmed life.

Back to why I'm posting. This is probably the most aggressive jumping to the least charitable interpretation of a post that I've seen here. Instead of asking for clarification, you jump down the other posters throat and invent wholesale the idea that JazzPotatoes is excusing US war crimes. Reminds me of Era in worst of ways. Wow.
 
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JazzPotatoes said:
Actual war crimes as in, the war crimes in Ukraine perpetrated by Russia are real, genuine and documented. That's all that statement means.
Click to expand...
You juxtapose that with him talking about US war crimes, which don't get the same label of "actual" war crimes, and I still don't understand why.

It's also ridiculous to me that you hold the position that he should return to the US so he can be tortured, possibly killed, for exposing an atrocious crime the government was and still is committing.

Can you explain why that's the right thing for him to do? Especially since his being in Russia atm has nothing to do with the US wanting to prosecute, detain, and torture him.
 
It goes without saying that the US and UK have committed some heinous war crimes in recent history.

It's just that on the list of countries who are just as bad or worse on the war crimes and human rights front, Russia is right at the top of that list.

Monster Mash said:
You juxtapose that with him talking about US war crimes, which don't get the same label of "actual" war crimes, and I still don't understand why.

It's also ridiculous to me that you hold the position that he should return to the US so he can be tortured, possibly killed, for exposing an atrocious crime the government was and still is committing.

Can you explain why that's the right thing for him to do? Especially since his being in Russia atm has nothing to do with the US wanting to prosecute, detain, and torture him.
Click to expand...
Post any reputable evidence that Snowden is at risk of being killed by the US if he turns himself in.

Every other political whistleblower (where they have turned themselves in) has been imprisoned and eventually released. That's not to say I condone imprisoning whistleblowers, because I don't, but there is no evidence that Snowden is at any sort of risk of being assassinated.

Putin, on the other hand, has an open and regular history of ensuring any associates he no longer feels are useful end up throwing themselves out a window, shooting themselves in the back of the head, or poisoning themselves with radioactive material. He actively pursues and murders anyone he considers no longer an asset to his aims.

So if the issue is risk to Snowden's safety... I'm sorry, but maybe don't swear an oath of loyalty to Putin? Because he's now put himself in greater danger by making himself a potential liability to Putin than what he was ever in by going to South America or claiming whistleblower status in America.
 
And for the record: he is in Russia because Assange told him to go to Russia. His Ecuadorian travel documents were forgeries, and Assange has gone on the record the plan was to get him to Russia.

www.theguardian.com

Julian Assange 'told Edward Snowden not seek asylum in Latin America'

WikiLeaks founder says he told the NSA whistleblower he could be kidnapped or killed, and that he was better off sheltering in Russia despite ‘negative PR’
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
JazzPotatoes said:
It goes without saying that the US and UK have committed some heinous war crimes in recent history.

It's just that on the list of countries who are just as bad or worse on the war crimes and human rights front, Russia is right at the top of that list.
Click to expand...
'Some' and 'In recent history' doing so much heavy lifting there.

Also, I disagree that Russia at the top of the list. They cannot compare with the scope of atrocities America commits regularly domestically, to its neighbors, and to the entire rest of the globe, but this point is also deeply irrelevant to the matter of Edward Snowden and America wanting to torture him for whistleblowing.

JazzPotatoes said:
Post any reputable evidence that Snowden is at risk of being killed by the US if he turns himself in.

Every other political whistleblower (where they have turned themselves in) has been imprisoned and eventually released. That's not to say I condone imprisoning whistleblowers, because I don't, but there is no evidence that Snowden is at any sort of risk of being assassinated.
Click to expand...
Admittedly, assassination is less likely, but you pretending the US has never just murdered journalists or whistleblowers for exposing them is honestly silly. One prominent example off the top of my head is Gary Webb who exposed that the CIA was trafficking arms and cocaine to fund the Nicaraguan Contras, and in doing so flooded mostly poor black neighborhoods with crack and guns.

More likely is torture, which I was very careful to point out as a likelihood. I notice you didn't mention anything about that, though. Weird. I'm sure you don't examples of the US doing that to whistleblowers, right?

JazzPotatoes said:
Putin, on the other hand, has an open and regular history of ensuring any associates he no longer feels are useful end up throwing themselves out a window, shooting themselves in the back of the head, or poisoning themselves with radioactive material. He actively pursues and murders anyone he considers no longer an asset to his aims.

So if the issue is risk to Snowden's safety... I'm sorry, but maybe don't swear an oath of loyalty to Putin? Because he's now put himself in greater danger by making himself a potential liability to Putin than what he was ever in by going to South America or claiming whistleblower status in America.
Click to expand...
"An oath of loyalty to Putin" This is so dishonest it's laughable

You know that swearing an oath of allegiance when being granted citizenship is a normal process in both Russia and the US, right? I'd hazard a guess it's normal elsewhere too, but can't say for sure.

I have a friend who immigrated here from Pakistan, and finally became a full citizen in 2017. I'm gonna have to break the bad news to him that he has sworn allegiance to Trump lmao.

I noticed you're still dancing around why it would be the right thing for him to turn himself over to the government whose crimes he exposed so they can torture him. The US government is fully at fault here, and they literally only want to get their hands on Snowden to make him pay for exposing their wrongdoings. Seriously, explain why the US should get what they want here. Do you think the US should get to torture a whistleblower because he didn't condemn Russia enough to your liking? What's the deal here
 
Monster Mash said:
'Some' and 'In recent history' doing so much heavy lifting there.

Also, I disagree that Russia at the top of the list. They cannot compare with the scope of atrocities America commits regularly domestically, to its neighbors, and to the entire rest of the globe, but this point is also deeply irrelevant to the matter of Edward Snowden and America wanting to torture him for whistleblowing.


Admittedly, assassination is less likely, but you pretending the US has never just murdered journalists or whistleblowers for exposing them is honestly silly. One prominent example off the top of my head is Gary Webb who exposed that the CIA was trafficking arms and cocaine to fund the Nicaraguan Contras, and in doing so flooded mostly poor black neighborhoods with crack and guns.

More likely is torture, which I was very careful to point out as a likelihood. I notice you didn't mention anything about that, though. Weird. I'm sure you don't examples of the US doing that to whistleblowers, right?


"An oath of loyalty to Putin" This is so dishonest it's laughable

You know that swearing an oath of allegiance when being granted citizenship is a normal process in both Russia and the US, right? I'd hazard a guess it's normal elsewhere too, but can't say for sure.

I have a friend who immigrated here from Pakistan, and finally became a full citizen in 2017. I'm gonna have to break the bad news to him that he has sworn allegiance to Trump lmao.

I noticed you're still dancing around why it would be the right thing for him to turn himself over to the government whose crimes he exposed so they can torture him. The US government is fully at fault here, and they literally only want to get their hands on Snowden to make him pay for exposing their wrongdoings. Seriously, explain why the US should get what they want here. Do you think the US should get to torture a whistleblower because he didn't condemn Russia enough to your liking? What's the deal here
Click to expand...
You're really out here trying to say "Well, these horrible inhumane crimes are not as bad as these other ones....."

I refuse to believe that you cannot see your own bias here. Just say you think the United States is worse than Russia. Hell, before this year you may have had a case and certainly it would have been true if this was 2010...
 
JazzPotatoes said:
And for the record: he is in Russia because Assange told him to go to Russia. His Ecuadorian travel documents were forgeries, and Assange has gone on the record the plan was to get him to Russia.

www.theguardian.com

Julian Assange 'told Edward Snowden not seek asylum in Latin America'

WikiLeaks founder says he told the NSA whistleblower he could be kidnapped or killed, and that he was better off sheltering in Russia despite ‘negative PR’
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...
Dude you posted a 7-year-old article about advice Julian Assange gave him, and you didn't even bother to read the article.
“He preferred Latin America, but my advice was that he should take asylum in Russia despite the negative PR consequences, because my assessment is that he had a significant risk he could be kidnapped from Latin America on CIA orders. Kidnapped or possibly killed.”

However, Assange’s story appears to be at odds with reports from the time, which detail a plan hatched to whisk Snowden from Russia, where he was stuck in the transit area of Moscow’s Sheremetyevo airport after his US passport was revoked, and into political asylum in Ecuador.
Click to expand...
Instead of creating a headcanon based around an article on something reportedly said by Assange, why don't we just go straight to the horse's mouth

 
0
jkm23 said:
You're really out here trying to say "Well, these horrible inhumane crimes are not as bad as these other ones....."

I refuse to believe that you cannot see your own bias here. Just say you think the United States is worse than Russia. Hell, before this year you may have had a case and certainly it would have been true if this was 2010...
Click to expand...
I've already stated plainly that I believe America is a far graver threat to the world than Russia. Why are you acting like this is something I've been trying to conceal?

Do you think America suddenly just cleaned up its act after 2010 and that we aren't actively committing mass atrocities, torture, acts of terror, intentional famines? Did I miss when America stopped having military bases and neo-colonies spanning every continent? Have they stopped being the #1 supporter of brutal far right dictatorships across the world? 73% of them to be exact https://truthout.org/articles/us-pr...tance-to-73-percent-of-world-s-dictatorships/

Israel's biggest ally is the US far and away. It's not like that's the only country who we help or have helped out with some genocide either. Our country has helped private US companies commit genocide in Latin America over fucking literal bananas. Do you think we've just stopped trafficking arms to Latin America? That the death squads just went away?

Our military bases are hated around the world for the pollution they spew and because they act as legal sanctuary for US soldiers stationed abroad getting away with all sorts of heinous crimes. https://www.civilbeat.org/2021/12/h...-threatened-oahus-drinking-water-for-decades/

theintercept.com

NCIS Case Files Reveal Undisclosed U.S. Military Sex Crimes in Okinawa

The military agency investigated at least eight sexual offenses between 2017 and 2019. None of them were reported to Congress or the public.
theintercept.com theintercept.com
www.japantimes.co.jp

Okinawan women's civic group chronicles sex crimes by U.S. military

Okinawan Women Act Against Military Violence has gathered together evidence relating to around 350 postwar cases in the prefecture.
www.japantimes.co.jp www.japantimes.co.jp

America still has institutionalized slavery, not to mention all the other ways in which we've codified white supremacy here and around the world through colonialism and neocolonialism. What are some of Russias colonies and neo-colonies? You could argue they're prosecuting a war to make Ukraine one. Georgia maybe? Idk, but if you want to argue Russia is the #1 terrorist state in the world I think you're gonna need to show me them at least having as many as America.

You won't though, because Russia has neither the military strength, or the financial strength to dominate the world like America does. They do not have the reach or status that America does, and America commits all of its crimes with total impunity. Where are all the crippling sanctions heaped on America? They don't exist because the US is the global hegemon.

-------------------------------------------------

None of this is exactly relevant, and you are again dancing around the actual topic and my question: Why is it the right thing for Edward Snowden to turn himself in to be tortured by a criminal state whose crimes he exposed? Why does he deserve to be punished, and punished by the US at that? Do you not think it's kind've backwards that the US is not being punished and never will be punished for the crimes he exposed (not to mention all of our other ones) and yet the person who exposed them should be?
 
Monster Mash said:
I've already stated plainly that I believe America is a far graver threat to the world than Russia. Why are you acting like this is something I've been trying to conceal?

Do you think America suddenly just cleaned up its act after 2010 and that we aren't actively committing mass atrocities, torture, acts of terror, intentional famines? Did I miss when America stopped having military bases and neo-colonies spanning every continent? Have they stopped being the #1 supporter of brutal far right dictatorships across the world? 73% of them to be exact https://truthout.org/articles/us-pr...tance-to-73-percent-of-world-s-dictatorships/

Israel's biggest ally is the US far and away. It's not like that's the only country who we help or have helped out with some genocide either. Our country has helped private US companies commit genocide in Latin America over fucking literal bananas. Do you think we've just stopped trafficking arms to Latin America? That the death squads just went away?

Our military bases are hated around the world for the pollution they spew and because they act as legal sanctuary for US soldiers stationed abroad getting away with all sorts of heinous crimes. https://www.civilbeat.org/2021/12/h...-threatened-oahus-drinking-water-for-decades/

theintercept.com

NCIS Case Files Reveal Undisclosed U.S. Military Sex Crimes in Okinawa

The military agency investigated at least eight sexual offenses between 2017 and 2019. None of them were reported to Congress or the public.
theintercept.com theintercept.com
www.japantimes.co.jp

Okinawan women's civic group chronicles sex crimes by U.S. military

Okinawan Women Act Against Military Violence has gathered together evidence relating to around 350 postwar cases in the prefecture.
www.japantimes.co.jp www.japantimes.co.jp

America still has institutionalized slavery, not to mention all the other ways in which we've codified white supremacy here and around the world through colonialism and neocolonialism. What are some of Russias colonies and neo-colonies? You could argue they're prosecuting a war to make Ukraine one. Georgia maybe? Idk, but if you want to argue Russia is the #1 terrorist state in the world I think you're gonna need to show me them at least having as many as America.

You won't though, because Russia has neither the military strength, or the financial strength to dominate the world like America does. They do not have the reach or status that America does, and America commits all of its crimes with total impunity. Where are all the crippling sanctions heaped on America? They don't exist because the US is the global hegemon.

-------------------------------------------------

None of this is exactly relevant, and you are again dancing around the actual topic and my question: Why is it the right thing for Edward Snowden to turn himself in to be tortured by a criminal state whose crimes he exposed? Why does he deserve to be punished, and punished by the US at that? Do you not think it's kind've backwards that the US is not beng punished and never will be punished for the crimes he exposed (not to mention all of our other ones) and yet the person who exposed them should be?
Click to expand...
We went from discussing war crimes, which seems to me to be pretty fucking narrow, to this long winded screed and terrorist states discussion. I mean I thought we were just discussing war crimes but apparently you had all this in your mind.... So we stay at least reasonably on topic, Yes or No, are Russia's war crimes less important and serious then Americas war crimes?

I'm forcing you into a yes or no because you have WILD leaps, assuming and filling in gaps as to what I believe and what vewis of the world that not only I have but other posters in this thread. To me, widespread causing of death and destructions to civilians be more numerically ranked but never morally. There is no, "less evil". To you there seems to be.
 
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jkm23 said:
We went from discussing war crimes, which seems to me to be pretty fucking narrow, to this long winded screed and terrorist states discussion. I mean I thought we were just discussing war crimes but apparently you had all this in your mind.... So we stay at least reasonably on topic, Yes or No, are Russia's war crimes less important and serious then Americas war crimes?
Click to expand...
So you want to say Russia is worse, but you can't back that up in any substantial way.

This thread is about Edward Snowden getting citizenship in Russia after his home country drove him out for exposing their crimes. The same country now wants him to come back and be a political prisoner while they go unpunished. If you cannot even answer my question (which is, again, why do you think it's right for him to return to America and be subjected to torture) than what is there to discuss?
 
Monster Mash said:
So you want to say Russia is worse, but you can't back that up in any substantial way.

This thread is about Edward Snowden getting citizenship in Russia after his home country drove him out for exposing their crimes. The same country now wants him to come back and be a political prisoner while they go unpunished. If you cannot even answer my question (which is, again, why do you think it's right for him to return to America and be subjected to torture) than what is there to discuss?
Click to expand...
I made an edit but here it is again:

I forcing you into a yes or no because you have WILD leaps, assuming and filling in gaps as to what I believe and what vewis of the world that not only I have but other posters in this thread. To me, widespread causing of death and destructions to civilians can be numerically ranked but never morally. There is no, "less evil". To you there seems to be.

By the way, I never once said that it was right for him to return or even that he should. This is what I said earlier in the thread which,
is crystal clear you didn't read, again,

bc while Snowden is in Russia bc of the US "and it's in his own interest to shut the fuck up about the Ukraine War, it's clear that no one needs to take his opinions about anything seriously anymore. Not sure what there is to discuss. Ed, It's cool you exposed the NSA and now it's ok to stop tweeting, we get it that you can't say what you mean and you've compromised your morals for your life. Most of us would do the same and if you think you wouldn't, you ve lived a charmed life."
 
jkm23 said:
To me, widespread causing of death and destructions to civilians can be numerically ranked but never morally. There is no, "less evil". To you there seems to be.
Click to expand...
jkm23 said:
Just say you think the United States is worse than Russia. Hell, before this year you may have had a case and certainly it would have been true if this was 2010...
Click to expand...

It's funny how Russia became worse after some nebulous time in 2010, then I make one post describing the order of magnitude that America's oppression engine operates on, and suddenly you want to retreat to this position that there's no "less evil."

Dishonest af
 
Monster Mash said:
It's funny how Russia became worse after some nebulous time in 2010, then I make one post describing the order of magnitude that America's oppression engine operates on, and suddenly you want to retreat to this position that there's no "less evil."

Dishonest af
Click to expand...
Legitimately embarrassing lmao
 
0
Monster Mash said:
It's funny how Russia became worse after some nebulous time in 2010, then I make one post describing the order of magnitude that America's oppression engine operates on, and suddenly you want to retreat to this position that there's no "less evil."
Click to expand...
I
Monster Mash said:
It's funny how Russia became worse after some nebulous time in 2010, then I make one post describing the order of magnitude that America's oppression engine operates on, and suddenly you want to retreat to this position that there's no "less evil."

Dishonest af
Click to expand...
Ok you got me. I wrote that first post before I really thought about it. Yeah, it is embarrassing to write something and release later that you don't agree with it.

I don't believe that there is a lesser or greater evil in war crimes. You can make numerical debate but not a moral one.
 
jkm23 said:
I

Ok you got me. I wrote that first post before I really thought about it. Yeah, it is embarrassing to write something and release later that you don't agree with it.

I don't believe that there is a lesser or greater evil in war crimes. You can make numerical debate but not a moral one.
Click to expand...

I mean, I think it's less that you thought about it more, and more that you realized that if we examined war crimes in great detail, it becomes very evident why the US is viewed as a greater threat to democracy than any other country worldwide.
 
Dusa said:
I mean, I think it's less that you thought about it more, and more that you realized that if we examined war crimes in great detail, it becomes very evident why the US is viewed as a greater threat to democracy than any other country worldwide.
Click to expand...
Threat to democracy is not the same as weighing killing and displacing millions in one war or one bombing campaign than another.

Torture, genocide, killing of civilians, destruction of civilian infrastructure, etc, war crimes, specifically in wartime or military action.
 
jkm23 said:
Threat to democracy is not the same as weighing killing and displacing millions in one war or one bombing campaign than another.

Torture, genocide, killing of civilians, destruction of civilian infrastructure, etc, war crimes.
Click to expand...
You just listed some of the most common ways that democracy is undermined. :)
 
Dusa said:
You just listed some of the most common ways that democracy is undermined. :)
Click to expand...

Specific crimes referring only to actions taken during wartime.or during military action?

Threats to democracy are much broader than that.
 
Dusa said:
I think that killing civilians and blowing up hospitals without fear of reprisal are really effective ways to undermine democracy
Click to expand...

Ok and yes they can be. Or they be used to dispose a dictator or prop one up....

But, I agree and you re correct. Honestly, I stepped into a thread I had no business in. That includes my discussion with Monster Mash earlier.
 
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