Discussion Do you think that Nintendo's partners and subsidiaries have management issues?

[Ricimer]

I’m also not convinced by this argument reducing everything down to numbers when it ignores that Switch development takes a lot longer,

The Wii U and Switch are about equal in terms of power, development shouldn't take significantly longer between the two. Heck, development should be going smoother in the Switch era than Wii U era since that was Nintendo's first time ever doing HD development and they hit stumpling blocks.

ignores ports, and ignores major pieces of DLC, in order to reach your conclusion that the Switch is only comparable to the WiiU (as long as you ignore enough pieces of software).

I didn't ignore ports, they're explicitly accounted for. I outright said if you count the ports the Switch has a higher output, which makes sense.

DLC gets fuzzy with the definitions of what counts/doesn't count. I could count some obvious beefy expansions like the Octo Expansion as a extra minor releases, but what about edge cases like BOTW's season pass, should that count as a release? Even giving the Switch the most favorable shake possible and counting every single major 1st Party DLC from 2017-May 2021 as a separate release, it doesn't change the averages significantly.

It seemed simpler to me to ignore all DLC (including on the Wii U end) and just count releases. It's the same criteria NintendoLife used for their article on this subject I linked and what I based this analysis on, which I thought was fair.

For the first two years of Switch’s lifespan, Nintendo was also supporting the 3DS,

Nintendo was also supporting the 3DS through the entirety of the Wii U's lifespan.

then we were straight into Covid.

The averages excluding COVID (comparing a 36 month interval) and beyond COVID (FiniteInfinites's numbers) show the same result.

There are shedloads more smaller titles on the eshop from third parties than there ever were on WiiU, which means Nintendo tentpole releases tend to be bigger affairs to stand out, and even the releases in their traditionally portable series now take much longer to develop.

I'm not sure what 3rd Party eShop games have to do with anything. Nintendo really doesn't change their output based on any influence from 3rd Party releases in the system.

Yes HD console games take longer to develop than SD portable games. My problem is the Switch has a output on-par with the Wii U while absorbing the handheld line. Expecting a 2x increase is obviously absurd, but like no improvement at all? It's like the handheld line died in 2017 and the Switch carries on as a successor to Wii U by itself, the output just hasn't gone up. I guess you can argue the resources from the 3DS went to expanding te capacity for ports, since that's the only metric where the Switch shows a substantial increase. That's a fair but sad thought.

But somehow you’ve ignored all of this context to frame a comparison of portions of the release list in a set period of time in order to stand up a point that Nintendo’s support for the Switch is comparable to the WiiU.

Anyway you slice the interval the results are the same. You can compare the first 36 months (non-COVID influence), first 50 months, or entire lifespans (FiniteInfinites's numbers) and it still shows roughly the same averages.

And the only reason you seem to be trying to reach this conclusion is because you want more 2D Zelda. It’s clearly a set conclusion you are trying to reach, hence you picking and choosing what to discount to get there while appealing to ‘numbers don’t lie’. Hence, ‘garbage in, garbage out’.

Using 2D Zelda as a good example is not the "only reason" I'm "trying to reach a conclusion". I'm disappointed by the Switch's software output as a successor to both their handheld and console hardware lines. That's what it comes down to.

I'm a big Switch fan and love the system/games, it's just this one aspect I'm disappointed with. I'm happy to be proven wrong and I went into the number crunching attempting to be as objective as possible. I didn't massage any stats, I made some errors (like forgetting Torna got a retail release) but I openly laid out the definitions (largely based on NintendoLife's analysis) and tried to be as transparent as possible. More importantly, people independent from this conversation also crunched the numbers and reached the same result. This is me using existing numbers/averages anyone can calculate to support an argument, not inventing evidence.

As an aside, I appreciate you being cordial and civil in these discussions.

 

[meatbag]

The Wii U and Switch are about equal in terms of power, development shouldn't take significantly longer between the two

This is demonstrably false. We know that the Switch is more than 2x powerful than the Wii U, and that's only accounting for raw specs and not including all the more advanced tech and processors the Switch employs. And quite frankly you have an erroneous view of development works, if you think it "shouldn't take significantly longer".

More importantly, people independent from this conversation also crunched the numbers and reached the same result

That was one user, FiniteInfinities. More people disagreed with you. Thunder86 also crunched the numbers and concluded differently.

I'm happy to be proven wrong and I went into the number crunching attempting to be as objective as possible

You can say you're disappointed in the output on Switch without having to be "objective".

 

[Ricimer]

This is demonstrably false. We know that the Switch is more than 2x powerful than the Wii U, and that's only accounting for raw specs and not including all the more advanced tech and processors the Switch employs. And quite frankly you have an erroneous view of development works, if you think it "shouldn't take significantly longer".

You're right about the raw power.

Do Switch games inherently take longer to develop than Wii U games? I don't think that's the case. One Switch game with the longest development time, BOTW, was also made for the Wii U, so I don't think it's an innate quality of the Switch hardware that forces longer development. The biggest jump in development time was from SD to HD development, which Nintendo already experienced with the transition from Wii to Wii U

That was one user, FiniteInfinities. More people disagreed with you. Thunder86 also crunched the numbers and concluded differently.

Thunder86 did an analysis of metacritic averages, not game output. That's it the same thing at all.

You're free to crunch the number of first party releases yourself and you'll reach the same results: Wii U and Switch have a roughly equal output excluding ports, Switch has more counting ports.

You can say you're disappointed in the output on Switch without having to be "objective".

I should be biased? It's a calculation of the number of first party games released for a system, it's an objective calculation once you define boundaries and scope.

 

[meatbag]

Do Switch games inherently take longer to develop than Wii U games? I don't think that's the case.

I would rather a dev, or someone more knowledgeable, answer this, but yes, I do believe Switch games, by virtue of being higher fidelity, do in fact take longer to develop.

Thunder86 did an analysis of metacritic averages, not game output.

His numbers clearly denote 39 games for Wii U versus 47 games for Switch.

You're free to crunch the number of first party releases yourself and you'll reach the same results:

If I do I will also count DLC, because things like Torna and the MK8 Booster Pass are substantial enough to be considered separate games. I'll do it if I have the time.

I should be biased?

You already are biased. You're disappointed that Nintendo did not make as many games as you'd like, irrespective of the current reality of video game development, the pacing of those releases and the quality of those games.

 

[Ricimer]

I would rather a dev, or someone more knowledgeable, answer this, but yes, I do believe Switch games, by virtue of being higher fidelity, do in fact take longer to develop.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one

His numbers clearly denote 39 games for Wii U versus 47 games for Switch.

The Switch having a higher total amount of games is obviously true, it has more years on the market. That's not what I'm arguing about at all! I'm talking about average output per year.

If I do I will also count DLC, because things like Torna and the MK8 Booster Pass are substantial enough to be considered separate games. I'll do it if I have the time.

Sure. I think that's fair.

You already are biased. You're disappointed that Nintendo did not make as many games as you'd like, irrespective of the current reality of video game development, the pacing of those releases and the quality of those games.

You're biased too as someone obviously in favor of the Switch era. And that's fine, people have their preferences. My bias didn't influence how I did that calculation though.

I'm not blind to the reality of modern game development. I didn't expect Nintendo's output to double after the Switch absorbed the handheld line, obviously there's some innate increase in development time that's coupled with HD development. But I expected better than an output that's roughly on par with the Wii U.

Quality wise, I was equally satisfied with games on both the 3DS+Wii U and the Switch. If you want to make the argument that the Switch has objectively better games than the Wii U by looking at Metacritic scores, I think that's somewhat valid. Once you start to include the 3DS's library from that era that gets to be down to a matter of personal tastes. For me, I don't think Nintendo's game quality has improved or decreased in general since last generation. It's gone up for some franchises (3D Mario) while declined for others (Pokemon) imo. So no, that's not being irrespective of quality.

 

[ILikeFeet]

I also wonder why Nintendo didn't train their/prepare employees with HD development... God, the Wii U really was a string incompetence, bad management, people whose job was to market the damn thing failed miserably to so. Also the lack of third party support, those really were the dark ages weren't they.

It's a miracle that after the Wii U Nintendo has made the third best selling system, with good output, fantastic looking games and better management, despite Covid happening.

HD development doesn't requiere a fundamentally different skillset from SD development. Higher fidelity assets just take longer to make.

can't really "train" for that without building completely new tools to take advantage of new rendering models. that's a fuckload of money to be spending without releasing games, hence why these tools are developed as the games are to amortize costs

 

[meatbag]

The Switch having a higher total amount of games is obviously true, it has more years on the market

Thunder86 did not include games like Fire Emblem Engage, Tears of the Kingdom and Pikmin 4 in his count, so it seems like he already accounted for the Switch being out for longer.

You're biased too as someone obviously in favor of the Switch era.

I never said I wasn't.

My bias didn't influence how I did that calculation though.

The problem is your conclusion:

But I expected better than an output that's roughly on par with the Wii U

Again, that's a misguided notion from a frankly simplistic view of video game development.

I'm still looking for a comprehensive list for both Wii U and Switch, it's surprisingly difficult to find.

 

[Thunder84]

The Switch having a higher total amount of games is obviously true, it has more years on the market. That's not what I'm arguing about at all! I'm talking about average output per year.

I only used the same data that you used for your 4 year analysis, with Torna being the only exception (along with dropping Bayonetta 1 from both sides, as that is not 1st party). There are multiple games that you missed that I did not include: Cadence of Hyrule, Good Job, Kirby Fighters 2, Snipperclips, the Stretchers, BoxBoy + BoxGirl, Tetris 99, Super Mario 35, etc.

I'm still looking for a comprehensive list for both Wii U and Switch, it's surprisingly difficult to find.

If you don’t get around to this, I’m planning on doing a comprehensive analysis once I get home from work.

 

[Polmo]

In light of the industries layoff, if Nintendo have management issues I'm really fine with their works

 

[Ricimer]

Thunder86 did not include games like Fire Emblem Engage, Tears of the Kingdom and Pikmin 4 in his count, so it seems like he already accounted for the Switch being out for longer.

That 47 total includes all the Wii U ports the Switch received. The total being higher isn't any sort of "gotcha". I've repeatedly said that if you include ports the Switch has a higher average output. If you look at the table I made that's exactly what it shows.

Wii U:

Switch:

Again, that's a misguided notion from a frankly simplistic view of video game development.

I believe we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I think it's immensely disappointing the handheld line died for essentially no tangible benefit in game output. I don't think it was unrealistic to expect even a small increase, at minimum, in the Switch's consolidated lineup.

I only used the same data that you used for your 4 year analysis, with Torna being the only exception (along with dropping Bayonetta 1 from both sides, as that is not 1st party). There are multiple games that you missed that I did not include: Cadence of Hyrule, Good Job, Kirby Fighters 2, Snipperclips, the Stretchers, BoxBoy + BoxGirl, Tetris 99, Super Mario 35, etc.


If you don’t get around to this, I’m planning on doing a comprehensive analysis once I get home from work.

Your data is good, I think the analysis of ratings is a useful metric. A lot of the Wii U titles like Amiibo Festival were stinkers by the end. I think that was partially driven by Nintendo moving most of their big projects to the Switch starting in mid-2015.

 

[meatbag]

I believe we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one

You can disagree, you'd just be objectively wrong because you can't accept the reality of HD game development.

Your data is good

The point is that their data only covered the first four years, so the total counts were not skewed by Switch being out for longer.

That 47 total includes all the Wii U ports the Switch received. The total being higher isn't any sort of "gotcha". I've repeatedly said that if you include ports the Switch has a higher average output.

Also mentioned in Thunder's analysis, the Switch:Wii U ration, discounting ports and remakes, would be 16:14, if I'm reading it right.

But I'll get back to you on that once I find a good list.

 

[Ricimer]

You can disagree, you'd just be objectively wrong because you can't accept the reality of HD game development.

Okay. Nintendo was already dealing with HD game development during the Wii U era (for the first time ever, which slowed development!). Do you seriously think Switch games are that much more complex and resource intensive that the Switch absorbing the entire manpower which drove the 3DS to success should result in a net gain of 0? I'm sorry but I expected better.

The point is that their data only covered the first four years, so the total counts were not skewed by Switch being out for longer.

I made the mistake everyone else here made with my post, I skimmed the data initially and thought it was a lifespan comparison. Sorry about that, it was hard to reply to everyone when I'm getting dogpiled.

Also mentioned in Thunder's analysis, the Switch:Wii U ration, discounting ports and remakes, would be 16:14, if I'm reading it right.

...which exactly supports my orignal point, they have roughly the same output excluding ports.

 

[Ricimer]

Double post

 

[ngpdrew]

Okay. Nintendo was already dealing with HD game development during the Wii U era (for the first time ever, which slowed development!). Do you seriously think Switch games are that much more complex and resource intensive that the Switch absorbing the entire manpower which drove the 3DS to success should result in a net gain of 0? I'm sorry but I expected better.

I made the mistake everyone else here made with my post, I skimmed the data initially and thought it was a lifespan comparison. Sorry about that, it was hard to reply to everyone when I'm getting dogpiled.


...which exactly supports my orignal point, they have roughly the same output excluding ports.

2 is a mathematically significant increase. That's a 14% increase from Wii U to Switch.

 

[meatbag]

Do you seriously think Switch games are that much more complex and resource intensive that the Switch absorbing the entire manpower which drove the 3DS to success should result in a net gain of 0?

Yes. I do not see how you could think otherwise. Even discounting BotW... the level of tech between Smash Bros Ultimate and SSB4, between Luigi's Mansion 3 and 2, etc. are significant.

3DS was also still receiving support during the first two years of the Switch's life, I believe.

which exactly supports my orignal point, they have roughly the same output excluding ports

Again, I'll get back to you with a list, or maybe Thunder will beat me to it. Though the needed context here is that the scale of the Switch games are on average greater than Wii U's.

 

[Hocot8]

Again, I'll get back to you with a list, or maybe Thunder will beat me to it. Though the needed context here is that the scale of the Switch games are on average greater than Wii U's.

Even if you want to say the output is the same...you have to ignore this. And therefore, the point(Ricimer's) is moot. It's ignoring something very tangible and it's been mentioned here several times. DLC's have been mentioned multiple times. And during the Wii U era a lot of games were lacking in scale. They were small, and there's nothing wrong with that but it was missing the big tentpole releases so that we can enjoy these small games.

Even in the big IPs....the output is just not the same. Not even close.

 

[Ricimer]

Yes. I do not see how you could think otherwise. Even discounting BotW... the level of tech between Smash Bros Ultimate and SSB4, between Luigi's Mansion 3 and 2, etc. are significant.

I'm talking about Wii U to Switch specifically. While Smash Ultimate looks better I wouldn't call it a universe away in terms of graphics or complexity from Smash 4. It's a small upgrade.

3DS was also still receiving support during the first two years of the Switch's life, I believe.

If you do the numbers and move the 50 month interval to the latter half the Switch's life the averages still come out the same. Same if you do a lifespan comparison like FininiteInfinite.

Again, I'll get back to you with a list, or maybe Thunder will beat me to it. Though the needed context here is that the scale of the Switch games are on average greater than Wii U's.

I don't think Switch games are all that much larger than Wii U counterparts. In some cases sure, like 3D World to Odyssey. Other cases Xenoblade X vs Xenoblade 2 is a wash. Same with Wholly World vs Crafted World, NSMBU vs Wonder, Hyrule Warriors vs. Age of Calamity, Nintendo Land vs. 1-2-Switch etc.

 

[meatbag]

While Smash Ultimate looks better I wouldn't call it a universe away in terms of graphics or complexity from Smash 4. It's a small upgrade.

It is not a small upgrade. Sakurai himself mentions how the challenge of doing Ultimate was thought to be near impossible.

If you do the numbers and move the 50 month interval to the latter half the Switch's life the averages still come out the same

But that's not the comparison we're making? The point is that development resources were still being directed to the 3DS during the first couple of years; ergo, it would be fallacious to say thar Switch had consumed all that 3DS manpower during that time.

I don't think Switch games are all that much larger than Wii U counterparts

The Switch games have higher fidelity, more advanced shaders, more background tech, more post-processing. That all adds up.

Wooly World to Crafted World, sure, probably close. NSMBU to Wonder though? More debatable.

 

[MetalLord]

.........

 

[FiniteInfinities]

I feel like my position has maybe been misinterpreted a bit. My conclusion from the numbers I crunched (which is ultimately subjective because defining "major" , "exclusive", and "Nintendo-developed" will always lead to disagreements), is that Wii U and Switch had a similar output of original titles...

plus the Switch having many more high quality/effort ports/remakes, more DLC support, and doing all of this through a pandemic. I think that more than explains where all of the 3DS + Wii U development resources ended up.

Maybe I'm wrong but I got the feeling Nintendo aims for about 1 exclusive per month on average throughout both the Wii U and Switch. Doing any more than that can start to cannibalize sales, no? So that means the extra dev resources that also went to the 3DS can mean releases are higher quality, "higher budget/effort", and get longer post-launch support.

 

[MetalLord]

Okay. Nintendo was already dealing with HD game development during the Wii U era (for the first time ever, which slowed development!). Do you seriously think Switch games are that much more complex and resource intensive that the Switch absorbing the entire manpower which drove the 3DS to success should result in a net gain of 0? I'm sorry but I expected better.

I made the mistake everyone else here made with my post, I skimmed the data initially and thought it was a lifespan comparison. Sorry about that, it was hard to reply to everyone when I'm getting dogpiled.


...which exactly supports my orignal point, they have roughly the same output excluding ports.

yeah they are, factually

Splatoon 1

Splatoon 3

Hiromu Takemura Koji Kitagawa Takayuki Ikkaku Shigeyuki Asuke Ryutaro Kanno Keiko Kinoshita Yasuhiro Akama Junki Ikeuchi Terumasa Kato Hazuki Katagai

Yoshihiko Ito Tadanori Sakata Taketoshi Akimaru Kenta Usui Tomo Tanaka Takahiro Iwasaki Ryosuke Ogata Kuniko Maeda Tomoaki Tsuji Kotaro Nakagami Tsuyoshi Masada Tomokazu Abe Takuya Matsunobu Yuichiro Ito Hiromu Takemura Ryo Arai Hiroya Shikano Koki Takata Honami Hada Takamitsu Shibaoka Rio Masuda Masatoshi Morimoto Ririna Yasufuku Takumi Fujihara Kohei Hayashi Aimi Ayashiro Naoki Inoue Yoki Omura Takahiro Ono Ayaka Onoda Riwa Kunitake Tomohiro Hirao Ikuri Matsuo Rika Yamamoto

Splatoon

Splatoon 3

Seita Inoue Keisuke Nishimori Emi Tomita Michiho Ito Akito Osanai Miki Aoki Hanako Hisada Takuro Shimizu Takeshi Koike Shunichi Shirai Manabu Hiraoka Yosuke Tamori Hiroshi Ueda Airi Abe Yuko Miyakawa Yuki Hamada Mayu Furukawa Misaki Imura Mariko Tachibana Satomi Usui Mayuko Nakamura Keisuke Nishikawa Yoko Maruta Norihiro Morita Mari Shibata Shoko Fukuchi Noriko Uono Minechika Kitai Subaru Ganbe Jun Kitaoka Bungo Takahashi Lim Chee Wai Shinji Yato Satoko Nishio Ayumi Takata Takehiko Kegasa Yousuke Asahara Rika Aoki Sanae Matsuo Toshiyuki Hiroe Atsushi Domoto Asami Fujita Tetsuya Taniyama Takaaki Koido Sayaka Matsuzawa Taro Nakamura Yui Makoto Akiyoshi Tamanoi Tokuhiro Yumoto

Hito Matsudaira Akane Kamiya Reiya Nagae Nanaka Kumazawa Syo Murata Haruka Tatsuta Riku Takamatsu Akari Mine Kanoko Kobayashi Mari Miki Boku Kondo Mei Minagawa Momo Hirai Hikari Miura Takayuki Yanagisawa Takehisa Taketoshi Hiroki Yamada Shohei Imamura Yusuke Suzuki Maki Yashiro Masahiro Harada Mayu Furukawa Kazumi Yamaguchi Jun Tanaka Maasa Sugimoto Shogo Shimada Taigo Hamaguchi Tomoki Hirayama Miu Morita Miki Aoki Yoshiki Takada Hanaka Tahara Yusuke Sugiyama Ren Kudo Haruna Noda Shintaro Sasaki Yuki Ishizuka Kohei Ishida Takuro Shimizu Akito Osanai Takeshi Koike Dairi Hayakawa Riwano Ikeda Atsushi Miyagi Koji Sonoyama Takeru Fukada Saria Suga Sota Ueki Youngseok Kong Yume Shiratori Makoto Ota Hiroshi Ueda Momoka Yamamoto Daichi Nonaka Kyosuke Fujita Shiji Wu Shumpei Yamashita Kei Fujii Kaho Sawada Shigeki Yoshida Kureka Ura Tomoka Kishida Yuri Takai Ayane Fujita Ooi Chun Gee Luis Esteves Melcolm Lek Lai Si Min Sam Choon Tatt Kelly Yang Jia Jing Andrea Ow Jia Ern Alex Ong Geng Biao Chiong Ee Jun Chong Pick Chean YaoFeng Zeng Guan Benp Yeap Jocelyn Low Leong Hong Ching Chuck Hoon Jie Ling Daryl Wong ChengChan Tey Monica Lee Wong Yu Ping Ge Jian Han Benny Chew Wen Wei Ho Aloysisus Arist Xiong Wendell Wong Wan-Qing Carlson Wong Adrick Leong Ling Swee Hee Kong Sue Ying Jonathan Choo Tan Zhe Chean Herman Yani Koo JingLer Fong Chen Chia Lim Kok Yien Ryan Yap Zi Qing Chan Man Yew Hawa Najihah Naoaki Ishiada Akiko Hasegawa Kazuhiro Watanabe Marina Amano Nami Kano Jun Ohsone Miki Toyota Narumi Harata Shoko Toba Lim Chee Wai Shinji Yato Yuji Watanabe Kanako Uno Jun Kitaoka Ayumi Yamazaki Fumiya Ito Yuhei Iwasa Naoki Uemura Shoji Kanehira Hiroko Kiyonari Shinya Cima Takaaki Koido Natsuo Komatsubara Haruka Saito Ayaka Sugimoto Tomo Yamanaka Mai Yuguchi Hiyori Sawabe Yo Nakajima Risa Sakai Yuji Asano Masahito Nishiura Yuki Higashiguchi Takahiro Fujimoto Hajime Saito Haruya Ogawa Yukako Abe Nina Takizawa Jumpei Takahashi Akiho Aiba Rei Kobayashi Yusuke Osada Maki Kawamata Ryoya Kato

​

 

[ngpdrew]

I've got time, let's do this.

IS IT SIGNIFICANTLY MORE COMPLEX?

Mario: Odyssey v. 3D World: Yes!
Mario: Wonder v. NSMBU: Debatable; Wonder's visuals are a cut above whereas NSMBU is just a high res version of the DS/Wii games. There is a wild amount of variety in Wonder due to the Wonder Seeds. I won't say definitively!
Mario: Super Mario Party v. Mario Party 10: No!

Zelda: TOTK v. Breath of the Wild: Yes! Link's new abilities are a significant step in complexity up from BOTW. There is a good reason it took as long as it did, even excluding the pandemic.
Zelda: Hyrule Warriors: That BOTW One v. Hyrule Warriors: Maybe? The BOTW game sure struggles a lot more than the Definitive Edition of the Wii U game.

Metroid: Dread v. Literally Nothing: Yes! Dread has Kraid! Nothing does not have Kraid. Kraid rules!

Animal Crossing: New Horizons v. Literally Nothing: Yes! Amiibo what now? Hm.

Kirby: Forgotten Land et al v. Rainbow Curse: Yes! Forgotten Land has a much grander scope than Rainbow Curse. Both games are delightful but between Mouthful Mode and the transition to 3D Forgotten Land is clearly a more complex game.

Splatoon: Either 2/3 v. Splatoon: Yes! The campaign in 3 (and the DLC for 2) are much more ambitious than the original game's solo mode. The multiplayer got much bigger in both games, too, adding a bunch of new maps, loads of new music, and entire new modes in the form of Salmon Run and the card game.

Yoshi: Woolly World v. Crafted World: No! Crafted World is also just not as fun of a game, even though I don't like either very much.

Pikmin: Pikmin 4 v. Pikmin 3: Yes! This isn't really close. Pikmin 3 is a nice slice of game that Pikmin 4 expands on greatly in every direction.

Mario Sports: Golf/Tennis/Strikers v. Just Tennis: Yes! Aces gets a lot of undeserved flack here but there is just a lot more going on here than there was in Ultra Smash. You have entirely new mechanics to try and liven up the competitive scene in addition to a story mode, albeit a bad one.

Smash Bros: Ultimate v. Wii U: Yes! Smash U is a pretty limited package, especially when compared to Ultimate. Ultimate introduces a lot of new features, a boatload of new and old characters, and has some amazing animations that look as good now as they did in 2018.

Star Fox: Literally Nothing v. Zero: Yes! It's so complex they can't even figure out what to do with it.

So, by my OBJECTIVE math, that's 10 "Yea's" compared to two "nay" and a "maybe". That's a 10:2:1 ratio. Switch wins. Flawless victory!

I will accept no arguments.

 

[Gotdatmoneyy]

Any analysis that ignores that the Switch is still regularly receiving games at the same pace is not worth acknowledging.

Any analysis where bullshit like Amiibo Festival and Ultra Smash tennis are used as releases of worth is not worth acknowledging.

Huge DLCs take development resources. Excluding them is fucking stupid when you are talking about release cadence. Future Redeemed is as long as a Metroid game and has a 90 on Opencritic. That doesn't count but bullshit like Devil's Third does?

Lmao. This isn't serious discussion.

 

[NBOctoling]

I've got time, let's do this.

IS IT SIGNIFICANTLY MORE COMPLEX?

Mario: Odyssey v. 3D World: Yes!
Mario: Wonder v. NSMBU: Debatable; Wonder's visuals are a cut above whereas NSMBU is just a high res version of the DS/Wii games. There is a wild amount of variety in Wonder due to the Wonder Seeds. I won't say definitively!
Mario: Super Mario Party v. Mario Party 10: No!

Zelda: TOTK v. Breath of the Wild: Yes! Link's new abilities are a significant step in complexity up from BOTW. There is a good reason it took as long as it did, even excluding the pandemic.
Zelda: Hyrule Warriors: That BOTW One v. Hyrule Warriors: Maybe? The BOTW game sure struggles a lot more than the Definitive Edition of the Wii U game.

Metroid: Dread v. Literally Nothing: Yes! Dread has Kraid! Nothing does not have Kraid. Kraid rules!

Animal Crossing: New Horizons v. Literally Nothing: Yes! Amiibo what now? Hm.

Kirby: Forgotten Land et al v. Rainbow Curse: Yes! Forgotten Land has a much grander scope than Rainbow Curse. Both games are delightful but between Mouthful Mode and the transition to 3D Forgotten Land is clearly a more complex game.

Splatoon: Either 2/3 v. Splatoon: Yes! The campaign in 3 (and the DLC for 2) are much more ambitious than the original game's solo mode. The multiplayer got much bigger in both games, too, adding a bunch of new maps, loads of new music, and entire new modes in the form of Salmon Run and the card game.

Yoshi: Woolly World v. Crafted World: No! Crafted World is also just not as fun of a game, even though I don't like either very much.

Pikmin: Pikmin 4 v. Pikmin 3: Yes! This isn't really close. Pikmin 3 is a nice slice of game that Pikmin 4 expands on greatly in every direction.

Mario Sports: Golf/Tennis/Strikers v. Just Tennis: Yes! Aces gets a lot of undeserved flack here but there is just a lot more going on here than there was in Ultra Smash. You have entirely new mechanics to try and liven up the competitive scene in addition to a story mode, albeit a bad one.

Smash Bros: Ultimate v. Wii U: Yes! Smash U is a pretty limited package, especially when compared to Ultimate. Ultimate introduces a lot of new features, a boatload of new and old characters, and has some amazing animations that look as good now as they did in 2018.

Star Fox: Literally Nothing v. Zero: Yes! It's so complex they can't even figure out what to do with it.

So, by my OBJECTIVE math, that's 10 "Yea's" compared to two "nay" and a "maybe". That's a 10:2:1 ratio. Switch wins. Flawless victory!

I will accept no arguments.

Technically we got that star Fox tie in content with Starlink (which made the switch version the only version to buy honestly)

 

[ngpdrew]

Technically we got that star Fox tie in content with Starlink (which made the switch version the only version to buy honestly)

That figurine is cooler than Zero by itself.

 

[MetalLord]

Super Mario Wonder qualifies,its 4x bigger than nsmbu,totk also

NSMBU

SMBW

Game Design

Game Design

Shigeyuki Asuke, Daiki Iwamoto, Ryutaro Kanno	Koichi Hayashida, Terumasa Kato, Eiji Mukao, Hajime Nakao, Ryuhei Matsuura, Kenichiro Yoshioka, Shigefumi Hino, Satoko Higashi, Yuji Watanabe
Level Design	Level Design
Takayuki Ikkaku, Kenta Usui, Yasuhiro Akama, Yuka Kitahara, Yasuhisa Yamamura	Takayuki Ikkaku, Minoru Narita, Yuhei Ariyama, Takayuki Hirai, Makoto Ono, Kai Kikui, Yasuhisa Yamamura, Eiji Noto, Yuko Nishimura, Yuichi Takano, Tomoyuki Watanabe, Yoichi Nagai, Sho Miyata, Shoichiro Takeyoshi, Kana Aiba, Tatsuya Nawata, Tomohiro Hirao, Yoki Omura, Rika Yakamoto
Character Design	Character Design
Hirohito Shinoda, Keisuke Umeda, Yuki Hamada	Keisuke Umeda, Moe Shirataki, Hirohito Shinoda, Rio Kurosaki, Tomomi Sumaki, Hiroki Yamada, Riko Shibanuma, Ken Minobe, Hiromi Sugimoto, Yu Yang, Shohei Imamura, Takahisa Ikejiri, Yusuke Suzuki, Takuma Tokita, Yuki Kaneko, Shungo Suzuki, Kiyoe Saito, Hiroshi Tanaka, Ryo Sugimoto, Yuki Ishii, Sidan Wang, Shota Hosogai, Fumiko Nishimura, Megumi Hamasaki Tatsuya Sakai, Takahiro Nishigaki, Takaki Yoshida, Miryan Paku, Kazuto Takatama, Hiroyuki Morishima, Munetaka Kurosaki, Yuta Mizushima, Tomoyuki Hattori, Yutaka Funatani, Shigeto Hozumi, Hiroto Nakanishi, Sota Tanaka, Naoko Adachi

Field Design	Field Design
Yasutomo Nishibe, Masanao Arimoto, Yasuyo Iwawaki, Yuka Sawano, Shunichi Shirai, Mayako Sugimoto, Tadashi Tanaka Takeshi Koike, Saki Kaneko	Saki Kaneko, Yasutomo Nishibe, Yuriko Suzuki, Tetsuya Kobayashi, Soshiro Suzuki, Shintaro Kashiwagi, Hanaka Narishima, Yasuko Hamaoka, Shota Kishita, Ai Kobayashi, Yohei Izumi, Masato Amma, Karon Shiihara, Masahiro Fukuoka, Kei Watanuki, Takateru Kadota, Satoshi Takamura, Yutaro Sato, Asahi Kikuchi, Megumi Watanabe, Yumi Ooka, Akira Inoue
UI Design	UI Design

Satoko Higashi, Mariko Tachibana	Mai Yamamoto, Ryota Irie, Satomi Tateishi, Haruka Nishinaga
VFX Design	VFX Design
Haruyasu Ito	Takeshi Nishimura, Eriko Matsui, Suzuki Tomiishi, Misato Iwasawa, Kojiro Inoue, Haruyasu Ito

3 characters designers vs 38
NSMBU introduced 14 new enemies, Mario Wonder 75, it expanded the mario rooster more than any game before, even multiple games added together

BOTW	TOTK
Landscape Art	Landscape Art
Makoto Yonezu Yohei Izumi, Sei Hashimoto, Moe Shirataki, Noriko Uono, Jun Kitaoka, Takafumi Shimotamari, Shinji Yato, Rika Aoki, Sanae Matsuo, Toshiyuki Hiroe, Kanako Uno, Yōsuke Asahara, Eri Morimoto	Manabu Takehara Yohei Izumi, Hirotada Miyatake, Kazue Kaneoka, Kazuyuki Endo, Mareki Hosokawa, Bungo Takahashi, Satoko Iwase Shoko Naka, Shintaro Sasaki, Haruna Noda, Hirofumi Orita, Hajime Itou, Hiroyuki Yagi, Shinji Yato, Makiko Nihari, Takafumi Shimotamari, Toshiyuki Hashimoto, Karon Shiihara, Masato Amma, Ryota Iwai, Koichi Miura, Hitomi Matsuta, Yukari Kitada, Akari Iwakiri, Rika Aoki, Masato Adachi, Kanae Hamagishi, Kana Ichigaya, Minami Akao, Ryo Inomata, Taiki Mitsuishi, Jun Kitaoka, Ayumi Yamazaki, Tadatsugu Motomiya, Rie Motonari

Game Design

Game Design

Kentaro Tominaga, Hiroaki Tamura, Yohei Fujino, Hiroshi Sakasai, Yasutaka Takeuchi, Eiji Mukao, Yuya Sato, Yutaka Hiramuki, Takayuki Ikkaku, Shinichi Ikematsu, Mari Shirakawa, Yoichi Yamada, Kanae Nakayama, Hiroshi Ando, Naoto Murakami, Tomonori Kawazoe, Kohei Kawazoe, Yuichiro Tsumita, Emi Takano, Makoto Shimamoto, Erina Shimamoto, Takahito Sekimoto, Yuya Imagawa, Hiroshi Konishi

Yohei Fujino, Kotaro Hiromatsu, Ryuju Maeno, Kazunori Maejima, Jonghoon Park, Tetsuya Yamaura, Dai Takasuka, Jun Yoshioka, Chika Amemiya, Hiroshi Ando, Kohei Sato, Saori Kometani, Yuka Ogaki, Yuumi Shiraki, Toshikazu Onodera, Hiromi Takahashi, Maya Katsurashima, Yasutaka Takeuchi, Naoki Mori, Kazuhiro Hosoi, Junshi Jodai, HokWai Ng, Shinichiro Biwasaka, Takafumi Okawa, Kazuhide Kawamura, Daiki Ito, Kengo Yuasa, Naoto Murakami, Takafumi Uechi, Yuki Nakamura, Andrzej Zamoyski, Takahito Sekimoto, Makoto Fujisaki, Akihito Toda, Mari Shirakawa, Naoya Yamamoto, Ryusuke Niitani, Jordan Amaro, Keiichiro Omura, Tomo Oyama, Ayaki Miyagi, Saburo Tateno, Fumiya Obata, Kenta Takiguchi, Saina Omatsu, Toshikazu Tsuruoka, Yuri Kurihara, Takuya Nakamura, Yuma Hashimoto, Makoto Yodawara

 

[Seven]

Okay. Nintendo was already dealing with HD game development during the Wii U era (for the first time ever, which slowed development!). Do you seriously think Switch games are that much more complex and resource intensive that the Switch absorbing the entire manpower which drove the 3DS to success should result in a net gain of 0? I'm sorry but I expected better.

Yes, that's the reason Nintendo consolidated their development pipeline in the first place, because HD development is complex and resource intensive. Also all that manpower that drove the 3DS to success had to adapt to HD development as well. Then there's the little issue of a global pandemic shutting everything down for close to a year.

 

[Mekanos]

In light of the industries layoff, if Nintendo have management issues I'm really fine with their works

Imagine if Monolith Soft got shuttered in 2012 because Xenoblade was only a modest seller

 

[Thunder84]

After wasting a couple hours, here we go. A full, comprehensive list of every game I could find that could theoretically be argued as "first party". Given how tenuous that definition is, this is not a definitive list by any means, so feel free to point out anything I missed or anything you disagree with.

Spoilering this for the sanity of everyone smart enough to stay out of the debate.

Spoiler: This wasn't worth the effort

To start, let's divide these into some categories. There's no clean way to do this, and it's all inherently subjective, but this is what I came up with:

• Big release: Simple enough. As a quick aside, I will be counting Breath of the Wild as a Switch title only, given that was how it was advertised and the Wii U was dead as a doornail when it launched.
• Small release: Reserving this for budget games, free games, or games that are attached to peripherals of some kind that target a different audience. Stuff like Kirby Fighters 2, Tetris 99, and Labo falls under this.
• Remakes: Games that have enough resources invested in them where they're immediately recognizable as different.
• Remasters: Games that are not blatantly new like the previous category, but have enough effort invested where it's still noticeable. Definitely a tenuous category, given how wide of a range that can cover; some games could arguably bump up a category, I don't intend for this one to be derogatory by any means. This ranges from stuff like the upcoming Paper Mario to the Zelda HD games. Also included 3D World + Bowser's Fury, since there isn't really a better home for it.
• Ports: Lowest tier of rereleases, self explanatory.
• Expansions: DLC that's substantial enough to be considered it's own experience. Again, some of these might be debatable, as I haven't played them all.
• Post-launch support: DLC, free or paid, that isn't substantial enough to be considered it's "own thing", but still needs to be noted. Stuff like Smash and Mario Kart. Some games like Splatoon or Xenoblade can qualify for both categories here.
• "First Party": What will probably be the most debatable category. Games that generally, in my experience, aren't really seen as 1st party titles, despite being published by Nintendo. This includes games that have been ported to other platforms after release (Lego City, Daemon X Machina), games with IPs clearly not owned by Nintendo (Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3, Fatal Frame) or games that just seem to be forgotten entirely (Flip Wars, Sing Party). Given that the whole discussion is about droughts, I figured it's worth separating these, since some might not consider them to be a part of the 1st party lineup and therefore not providing relief from a "drought".

Now, time for some counting. A couple game duos have been condensed into one entry for simplicity and will be denoted by an asterisk. The number in each title denotes the total number of games, including expansions. The (+X) denotes games that received post-launch support.

Spoiler: Wii U: 45 (+6)

Spoiler: Big Releases: 27

• Nintendo Land
• New Super Mario Bros. U
• Game & Wario
• Pikmin 3
• Wii Party U
• Wii Fit U
• Super Mario 3D World
• Mario & Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Olympic Winter Games
• Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze
• Mario Kart 8
• Hyrule Warriors
• Bayonetta 2
• Super Smash Bros. for Wii U
• Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker
• Kirby and the Rainbow Curse
• Mario Party 10
• Xenoblade Chronicles X
• Splatoon
• Yoshi's Woolly World
• Super Mario Maker
• Mario Tennis: Ultra Smash
• Animal Crossing: amiibo Festival
• Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE
• Pokkén Tournament
• Star Fox Zero
• Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games
• Paper Mario: Color Splash

Spoiler: Remasters: 3

• The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker HD
• Wii Sports Club
• The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess HD

Spoiler: Expansions: 1

• New Super Luigi U

Spoiler: Small Releases: 9

• Pokémon Rumble U
• NES Remix*
• Dr. Luigi
• Pushmo World
• Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Tipping Stars
• amiibo Tap: Nintendo's Greatest Bits
• Star Fox Guard
• Mini Mario & Friends: amiibo Challenge

Spoiler: "First Party": 5

• Sing Party
• Lego City Undercover
• The Wonderful 101
• Fatal Frame: Maiden of Black Water
• Devil's Third

Spoiler: Post-Launch Support: 6

• Pikmin 3
• Mario Kart 8
• Hyrule Warriors
• Super Smash Bros. for Wii U
• Splatoon
• Super Mario Maker

Spoiler: Nintendo Switch: 117 (+23)

Spoiler: Big Releases: 51

• The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
• 1-2-Switch
• Arms
• Splatoon 2
• Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle
• Fire Emblem Warriors
• Super Mario Odyssey
• Xenoblade Chronicles 2
• Kirby: Star Allies
• Sushi Striker: The Way of Sushido
• Mario Tennis Aces
• Super Mario Party
• Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
• Yoshi's Crafted World
• Super Mario Maker 2
• Fire Emblem Three Houses
• Astral Chain
• Ring Fit Adventure
• Luigi's Mansion 3
• Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games Tokyo 2020
• Pokémon Sword & Shield
• Animal Crossing: New Horizons
• Clubhouse Games: 51 Worldwide Classics
• Paper Mario: The Origami King
• Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity
• New Pokémon Snap
• Game Builder Garage
• Mario Golf: Super Rush
• WarioWare: Get It Together!
• Metroid Dread
• Big Brain Academy: Brain vs. Brain
• Pokémon Legends: Arceus
• Kirby and the Forgotten Land
• Nintendo Switch Sports
• Mario Strikers: Battle League
• Fire Emblem Warriors: Three Hopes
• Xenoblade Chronicles 3
• Splatoon 3
• Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope
• Bayonetta 3
• Pokémon Scarlet & Violet
• Fire Emblem Engage
• Bayonetta Origins: Cereza and the Lost Demon
• The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom
• Everybody's 1-2-Switch
• Pikmin 4
• Detective Pikachu Returns
• Super Mario Bros. Wonder
• WarioWare: Move It!
• Princess Peach: Showtime!
• Endless Ocean: Luminous

Spoiler: Remakes: 9

• Pokémon Let's Go, Pikachu and Eevee!
• The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening
• Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Rescue Team DX
• Famicom Detective Club*
• Mario Party Superstars
• Pokémon Brilliant Diamond & Shining Pearl
• Advance Wars 1+2: Re-Boot Camp
• Super Mario RPG
• Another Code: Recollection

Spoiler: Remasters: 8

• Xenoblade Chronicles: Definitive Edition
• Miitopia
• Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury
• The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword HD
• Metroid Prime Remastered
• Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe
• Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
• Luigi's Mansion 2 HD

Spoiler: Ports: 11

• Mario Kart 8 Deluxe
• Pokkén Tournament DX
• Bayonetta 2
• Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze
• Hyrule Warriors: Definitive Edition
• Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker
• New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe
• Tokyo Mirage Sessions ♯FE Encore
• Super Mario 3D All-Stars
• Pikmin 3 Deluxe
• Pikmin 1+2

Spoiler: Expansions: 11

• Splatoon 2: Octo Expansion
• Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle: Donkey Kong Adventure
• Xenoblade Chronicles 2: Torna ~ The Golden Country
• Fire Emblem: Three Houses - Cindered Shadows
• Pokémon Sword & Shield: The Isle of Armor & The Crown Tundra*
• Animal Crossing: New Horizons - Happy Home Paradise
• Xenoblade Chronicles 3: Future Redeemed
• Splatoon 3: Side Order
• Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope: Rayman in the Phantom Show
• Pokémon Scarlet & Violet: The Teal Mask & The Indigo Disk*
• Fire Emblem Engage: Fell Xenologue

Spoiler: Small Releases: 20

• Snipperclips: Cut it out, together!
• Nintendo Labo Toy-Con 01 Variety Kit
• Nintendo Labo Toy-Con 02 Robot Kit
• Nintendo Labo Toy-Con 03 Vehicle Kit
• Tetris 99
• BOXBOY! + BOXGIRL!
• Nintendo Labo Toy-Con 04 VR Kit
• Cadence of Hyrule: Crypt of the NecroDancer
• Super Kirby Clash
• The Stretchers
• Dr. Kawashima's Brain Training
• Good Job!
• Pokémon Café ReMix
• Kirby Fighters 2
• Super Mario Bros. 35
• Jump Rope Challenge
• Mario Kart Live: Home Circuit
• Pokémon Unite
• Kirby's Dream Buffet
• F-Zero 99

Spoiler: "First Party": 7

• Flip Wars
• Go Vacation
• Fitness Boxing
• Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3: The Black Order
• Daemon X Machina
• Fitness Boxing 2: Rhythm & Exercise
• DC Super Hero Girls: Teen Power

Spoiler: Post-Launch Support: 23

• The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
• Mario Kart 8 Deluxe
• ARMS
• Splatoon 2
• Pokkén Tournament DX
• Fire Emblem Warriors
• Xenoblade Chronicles 2
• Kirby: Star Allies
• Mario Tennis Aces
• Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker
• Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
• Super Mario Maker 2
• Luigi's Mansion 3
• Animal Crossing: New Horizons
• Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity
• New Pokémon Snap
• Mario Golf: Super Rush
• Pokémon Legends: Arceus
• Nintendo Switch Sports
• Xenoblade Chronicles 3
• Splatoon 3
• Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope
• Fire Emblem Engage

Spoiler: Comparisons

The Wii U was out for roughly 4.25 years. The Switch, through the end of June, will have been out for roughly 7.33 years.

The following comparisons are formatted as per year averages for both consoles.

Comparison​	Wii U​	Nintendo Switch​
Big Release​	6.35​	6.96​
Big Release + Remake​	6.35​	8.19​
Big + Remake + Remaster​	7.06​	9.28​
Big + All Rereleases​	7.06​	10.78​
Big + Expansion​	6.59​	8.46​
Big + Small​	8.47​	9.69​
Big + "First Party"​	7.53​	7.91​
All New Content​	9.88​	12.14​
Support​	1.41​	3.14​
All New Content + Rereleases​	10.59​	15.96​
All New Content + Rereleases + Support​	12​	19.1​

In conclusion? Strictly by numerical methods, at least with how I categorised games, the only comparison where the Wii U wins is the most nebulous one: "first party" games, stuff that debatably shouldn't even be included here. The Wii U loses in everything else, and it only gets worse the more you add in. When you include everything, the Nintendo Switch averages over 5 more games per year than the Wii U. Factor in post-launch support, and that number balloons to a full 7 more games per year than the Wii U. This isn't even touching Metascores or the release cadence.

There's certainly an argument to be made that the Switch features some unappealing trends that bolster that number: many games have received artificial post-launch support that should've just been there from the start. But even if you factor that out, there's still a huge difference. The benefits of consolidating development into one handheld are immediately apparent, and when you account for the global pandemic and the growing cost of game development, it only becomes even more obvious.

As has been said multiple times in this thread, numbers don't lie.

 

[xghost777]

After wasting a couple hours, here we go. A full, comprehensive list of every game I could find that could theoretically be argued as "first party". Given how tenuous that definition is, this is not a definitive list by any means, so feel free to point out anything I missed or anything you disagree with.

Spoilering this for the sanity of everyone smart enough to stay out of the debate.

Spoiler: This wasn't worth the effort

To start, let's divide these into some categories. There's no clean way to do this, and it's all inherently subjective, but this is what I came up with:

• Big release: Simple enough. As a quick aside, I will be counting Breath of the Wild as a Switch title only, given that was how it was advertised and the Wii U was dead as a doornail when it launched.
• Small release: Reserving this for budget games, free games, or games that are attached to peripherals of some kind that target a different audience. Stuff like Kirby Fighters 2, Tetris 99, and Labo falls under this.
• Remakes: Games that have enough resources invested in them where they're immediately recognizable as different.
• Remasters: Games that are not blatantly new like the previous category, but have enough effort invested where it's still noticeable. Definitely a tenuous category, given how wide of a range that can cover; some games could arguably bump up a category, I don't intend for this one to be derogatory by any means. This ranges from stuff like the upcoming Paper Mario to the Zelda HD games. Also included 3D World + Bowser's Fury, since there isn't really a better home for it.
• Ports: Lowest tier of rereleases, self explanatory.
• Expansions: DLC that's substantial enough to be considered it's own experience. Again, some of these might be debatable, as I haven't played them all.
• Post-launch support: DLC, free or paid, that isn't substantial enough to be considered it's "own thing", but still needs to be noted. Stuff like Smash and Mario Kart. Some games like Splatoon or Xenoblade can qualify for both categories here.
• "First Party": What will probably be the most debatable category. Games that generally, in my experience, aren't really seen as 1st party titles, despite being published by Nintendo. This includes games that have been ported to other platforms after release (Lego City, Daemon X Machina), games with IPs clearly not owned by Nintendo (Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3, Fatal Frame) or games that just seem to be forgotten entirely (Flip Wars, Sing Party). Given that the whole discussion is about droughts, I figured it's worth separating these, since some might not consider them to be a part of the 1st party lineup and therefore not providing relief from a "drought".

Now, time for some counting. A couple game duos have been condensed into one entry for simplicity and will be denoted by an asterisk. The number in each title denotes the total number of games (including expansions), the (+X) denotes games that received post-launch support.

Spoiler: Wii U: 45 (+6)

Spoiler: Big Releases: 27

• Nintendo Land
• New Super Mario Bros. U
• Game & Wario
• Pikmin 3
• Wii Party U
• Wii Fit U
• Super Mario 3D World
• Mario & Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Olympic Winter Games
• Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze
• Mario Kart 8
• Hyrule Warriors
• Bayonetta 2
• Super Smash Bros. for Wii U
• Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker
• Kirby and the Rainbow Curse
• Mario Party 10
• Xenoblade Chronicles X
• Splatoon
• Yoshi's Woolly World
• Super Mario Maker
• Mario Tennis: Ultra Smash
• Animal Crossing: amiibo Festival
• Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE
• Pokkén Tournament
• Star Fox Zero
• Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games
• Paper Mario: Color Splash

Spoiler: Remasters: 3

• The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker HD
• Wii Sports Club
• The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess HD

Spoiler: Expansions: 1

• New Super Luigi U

Spoiler: Small Releases: 9

• Pokémon Rumble U
• NES Remix*
• Dr. Luigi
• Pushmo World
• Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Tipping Stars
• amiibo Tap: Nintendo's Greatest Bits
• Star Fox Guard
• Mini Mario & Friends: amiibo Challenge

Spoiler: "First Party": 5

• Sing Party
• Lego City Undercover
• The Wonderful 101
• Fatal Frame: Maiden of Black Water
• Devil's Third

Spoiler: Post-Launch Support: 6

• Pikmin 3
• Mario Kart 8
• Hyrule Warriors
• Super Smash Bros. for Wii U
• Splatoon
• Super Mario Maker

Spoiler: Nintendo Switch: 117 (+23)

Spoiler: Big Releases: 51

• The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
• 1-2-Switch
• Arms
• Splatoon 2
• Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle
• Fire Emblem Warriors
• Super Mario Odyssey
• Xenoblade Chronicles 2
• Kirby: Star Allies
• Sushi Striker: The Way of Sushido
• Mario Tennis Aces
• Super Mario Party
• Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
• Yoshi's Crafted World
• Super Mario Maker 2
• Fire Emblem Three Houses
• Astral Chain
• Ring Fit Adventure
• Luigi's Mansion 3
• Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games Tokyo 2020
• Pokémon Sword & Shield
• Animal Crossing: New Horizons
• Clubhouse Games: 51 Worldwide Classics
• Paper Mario: The Origami King
• Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity
• New Pokémon Snap
• Game Builder Garage
• Mario Golf: Super Rush
• WarioWare: Get It Together!
• Metroid Dread
• Big Brain Academy: Brain vs. Brain
• Pokémon Legends: Arceus
• Kirby and the Forgotten Land
• Nintendo Switch Sports
• Mario Strikers: Battle League
• Fire Emblem Warriors: Three Hopes
• Xenoblade Chronicles 3
• Splatoon 3
• Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope
• Bayonetta 3
• Pokémon Scarlet & Violet
• Fire Emblem Engage
• Bayonetta Origins: Cereza and the Lost Demon
• The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom
• Everybody's 1-2-Switch
• Pikmin 4
• Detective Pikachu Returns
• Super Mario Bros. Wonder
• WarioWare: Move It!
• Princess Peach: Showtime!
• Endless Ocean: Luminous

Spoiler: Remakes: 9

• Pokémon Let's Go, Pikachu and Eevee!
• The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening
• Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Rescue Team DX
• Famicom Detective Club*
• Mario Party Superstars
• Pokémon Brilliant Diamond & Shining Pearl
• Advance Wars 1+2: Re-Boot Camp
• Super Mario RPG
• Another Code: Recollection

Spoiler: Remasters: 8

• Xenoblade Chronicles: Definitive Edition
• Miitopia
• Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury
• The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword HD
• Metroid Prime Remastered
• Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe
• Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
• Luigi's Mansion 2 HD

Spoiler: Ports: 11

• Mario Kart 8 Deluxe
• Pokkén Tournament DX
• Bayonetta 2
• Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze
• Hyrule Warriors: Definitive Edition
• Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker
• New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe
• Tokyo Mirage Sessions ♯FE Encore
• Super Mario 3D All-Stars
• Pikmin 3 Deluxe
• Pikmin 1+2

Spoiler: Expansions: 11

• Splatoon 2: Octo Expansion
• Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle: Donkey Kong Adventure
• Xenoblade Chronicles 2: Torna ~ The Golden Country
• Fire Emblem: Three Houses - Cindered Shadows
• Pokémon Sword & Shield: The Isle of Armor & The Crown Tundra*
• Animal Crossing: New Horizons - Happy Home Paradise
• Xenoblade Chronicles 3: Future Redeemed
• Splatoon 3: Side Order
• Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope: Rayman in the Phantom Show
• Pokémon Scarlet & Violet: The Teal Mask & The Indigo Disk*
• Fire Emblem Engage: Fell Xenologue

Spoiler: Small Releases: 20

• Snipperclips: Cut it out, together!
• Nintendo Labo Toy-Con 01 Variety Kit
• Nintendo Labo Toy-Con 02 Robot Kit
• Nintendo Labo Toy-Con 03 Vehicle Kit
• Tetris 99
• BOXBOY! + BOXGIRL!
• Nintendo Labo Toy-Con 04 VR Kit
• Cadence of Hyrule: Crypt of the NecroDancer
• Super Kirby Clash
• The Stretchers
• Dr. Kawashima's Brain Training
• Good Job!
• Pokémon Café ReMix
• Kirby Fighters 2
• Super Mario Bros. 35
• Jump Rope Challenge
• Mario Kart Live: Home Circuit
• Pokémon Unite
• Kirby's Dream Buffet
• F-Zero 99

Spoiler: "First Party": 7

• Flip Wars
• Go Vacation
• Fitness Boxing
• Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3: The Black Order
• Daemon X Machina
• Fitness Boxing 2: Rhythm & Exercise
• DC Super Hero Girls: Teen Power

Spoiler: Post-Launch Support: 23

• The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
• Mario Kart 8 Deluxe
• ARMS
• Splatoon 2
• Pokkén Tournament DX
• Fire Emblem Warriors
• Xenoblade Chronicles 2
• Kirby: Star Allies
• Mario Tennis Aces
• Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker
• Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
• Super Mario Maker 2
• Luigi's Mansion 3
• Animal Crossing: New Horizons
• Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity
• New Pokémon Snap
• Mario Golf: Super Rush
• Pokémon Legends: Arceus
• Nintendo Switch Sports
• Xenoblade Chronicles 3
• Splatoon 3
• Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope
• Fire Emblem Engage

Spoiler: Comparisons

The Wii U was out for roughly 4.25 years. The Switch, through the end of June, will have been out for roughly 7.33 years.

The following comparisons are formatted as per year averages for both consoles.

Comparison​	Wii U​	Nintendo Switch​
Big Release​	6.35​	6.96​
Big Release + Remake​	6.35​	8.19​
Big + Remake + Remaster​	7.06​	9.28​
Big + All Rereleases​	7.06​	10.78​
Big + Expansion​	6.59​	8.46​
Big + Small​	8.47​	9.69​
Big + "First Party"​	7.53​	7.91​
All New Content​	9.88​	12.14​
Support​	1.41​	3.14​
All New Content + Rereleases​	10.59​	15.96​
All New Content + Rereleases + Support​	12​	19.1​

In conclusion? Strictly by numerical methods, at least with how I categorised games, the only comparison where the Wii U wins is the most nebulous one: "first party" games, stuff that debatably shouldn't even be included here. The Wii U loses in everything else, and it only gets worse the more you add in. When you include everything, the Nintendo Switch averages over 5 more games per year than the Wii U. Factor in post-launch support, and that number balloons to a full 7 more games per year than the Wii U. This isn't even touching Metascores or the release cadence.

There's certainly an argument to be made that the Switch features some unappealing trends that bolster that number: many games have received artificial post-launch support that should've just been there from the start. But even if you factor that out, there's still a huge difference. The benefits of consolidating development into one handheld are immediately apparent, and when you account for the global pandemic and the growing cost of game development, it only becomes even more obvious.

As has been said multiple times in this thread, numbers don't lie.

Impressive work and analysis Thunder! This is as close to definitive as possible. Combine this with everything else discussed, less gaps, higher review scores, impacts of final 3DS support and the pandemic, more ambitious releases, and the increased number of workers on Switch games, you can really get a strong picture of where condensing to one product line has helped.

 

[Serif]

I appreciate all of the analysis done above but just as an outside observer who passed on Nintendo during the Wii U and gleefully returned when the Switch released, it feels pretty self-evident how much of an improvement there is across all fronts. And I would think the sheer volume of hardware and software units that have been sold as well as the re-emergence of Nintendo in the popular zeitgeist would've said as much.

 

[ngpdrew]

After wasting a couple hours, here we go. A full, comprehensive list of every game I could find that could theoretically be argued as "first party". Given how tenuous that definition is, this is not a definitive list by any means, so feel free to point out anything I missed or anything you disagree with.

Spoilering this for the sanity of everyone smart enough to stay out of the debate.

Spoiler: This wasn't worth the effort

To start, let's divide these into some categories. There's no clean way to do this, and it's all inherently subjective, but this is what I came up with:

• Big release: Simple enough. As a quick aside, I will be counting Breath of the Wild as a Switch title only, given that was how it was advertised and the Wii U was dead as a doornail when it launched.
• Small release: Reserving this for budget games, free games, or games that are attached to peripherals of some kind that target a different audience. Stuff like Kirby Fighters 2, Tetris 99, and Labo falls under this.
• Remakes: Games that have enough resources invested in them where they're immediately recognizable as different.
• Remasters: Games that are not blatantly new like the previous category, but have enough effort invested where it's still noticeable. Definitely a tenuous category, given how wide of a range that can cover; some games could arguably bump up a category, I don't intend for this one to be derogatory by any means. This ranges from stuff like the upcoming Paper Mario to the Zelda HD games. Also included 3D World + Bowser's Fury, since there isn't really a better home for it.
• Ports: Lowest tier of rereleases, self explanatory.
• Expansions: DLC that's substantial enough to be considered it's own experience. Again, some of these might be debatable, as I haven't played them all.
• Post-launch support: DLC, free or paid, that isn't substantial enough to be considered it's "own thing", but still needs to be noted. Stuff like Smash and Mario Kart. Some games like Splatoon or Xenoblade can qualify for both categories here.
• "First Party": What will probably be the most debatable category. Games that generally, in my experience, aren't really seen as 1st party titles, despite being published by Nintendo. This includes games that have been ported to other platforms after release (Lego City, Daemon X Machina), games with IPs clearly not owned by Nintendo (Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3, Fatal Frame) or games that just seem to be forgotten entirely (Flip Wars, Sing Party). Given that the whole discussion is about droughts, I figured it's worth separating these, since some might not consider them to be a part of the 1st party lineup and therefore not providing relief from a "drought".

Now, time for some counting. A couple game duos have been condensed into one entry for simplicity and will be denoted by an asterisk. The number in each title denotes the total number of games (including expansions), the (+X) denotes games that received post-launch support.

Spoiler: Wii U: 45 (+6)

Spoiler: Big Releases: 27

• Nintendo Land
• New Super Mario Bros. U
• Game & Wario
• Pikmin 3
• Wii Party U
• Wii Fit U
• Super Mario 3D World
• Mario & Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Olympic Winter Games
• Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze
• Mario Kart 8
• Hyrule Warriors
• Bayonetta 2
• Super Smash Bros. for Wii U
• Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker
• Kirby and the Rainbow Curse
• Mario Party 10
• Xenoblade Chronicles X
• Splatoon
• Yoshi's Woolly World
• Super Mario Maker
• Mario Tennis: Ultra Smash
• Animal Crossing: amiibo Festival
• Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE
• Pokkén Tournament
• Star Fox Zero
• Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games
• Paper Mario: Color Splash

Spoiler: Remasters: 3

• The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker HD
• Wii Sports Club
• The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess HD

Spoiler: Expansions: 1

• New Super Luigi U

Spoiler: Small Releases: 9

• Pokémon Rumble U
• NES Remix*
• Dr. Luigi
• Pushmo World
• Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Tipping Stars
• amiibo Tap: Nintendo's Greatest Bits
• Star Fox Guard
• Mini Mario & Friends: amiibo Challenge

Spoiler: "First Party": 5

• Sing Party
• Lego City Undercover
• The Wonderful 101
• Fatal Frame: Maiden of Black Water
• Devil's Third

Spoiler: Post-Launch Support: 6

• Pikmin 3
• Mario Kart 8
• Hyrule Warriors
• Super Smash Bros. for Wii U
• Splatoon
• Super Mario Maker

Spoiler: Nintendo Switch: 117 (+23)

Spoiler: Big Releases: 51

• The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
• 1-2-Switch
• Arms
• Splatoon 2
• Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle
• Fire Emblem Warriors
• Super Mario Odyssey
• Xenoblade Chronicles 2
• Kirby: Star Allies
• Sushi Striker: The Way of Sushido
• Mario Tennis Aces
• Super Mario Party
• Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
• Yoshi's Crafted World
• Super Mario Maker 2
• Fire Emblem Three Houses
• Astral Chain
• Ring Fit Adventure
• Luigi's Mansion 3
• Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games Tokyo 2020
• Pokémon Sword & Shield
• Animal Crossing: New Horizons
• Clubhouse Games: 51 Worldwide Classics
• Paper Mario: The Origami King
• Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity
• New Pokémon Snap
• Game Builder Garage
• Mario Golf: Super Rush
• WarioWare: Get It Together!
• Metroid Dread
• Big Brain Academy: Brain vs. Brain
• Pokémon Legends: Arceus
• Kirby and the Forgotten Land
• Nintendo Switch Sports
• Mario Strikers: Battle League
• Fire Emblem Warriors: Three Hopes
• Xenoblade Chronicles 3
• Splatoon 3
• Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope
• Bayonetta 3
• Pokémon Scarlet & Violet
• Fire Emblem Engage
• Bayonetta Origins: Cereza and the Lost Demon
• The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom
• Everybody's 1-2-Switch
• Pikmin 4
• Detective Pikachu Returns
• Super Mario Bros. Wonder
• WarioWare: Move It!
• Princess Peach: Showtime!
• Endless Ocean: Luminous

Spoiler: Remakes: 9

• Pokémon Let's Go, Pikachu and Eevee!
• The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening
• Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Rescue Team DX
• Famicom Detective Club*
• Mario Party Superstars
• Pokémon Brilliant Diamond & Shining Pearl
• Advance Wars 1+2: Re-Boot Camp
• Super Mario RPG
• Another Code: Recollection

Spoiler: Remasters: 8

• Xenoblade Chronicles: Definitive Edition
• Miitopia
• Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury
• The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword HD
• Metroid Prime Remastered
• Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe
• Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
• Luigi's Mansion 2 HD

Spoiler: Ports: 11

• Mario Kart 8 Deluxe
• Pokkén Tournament DX
• Bayonetta 2
• Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze
• Hyrule Warriors: Definitive Edition
• Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker
• New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe
• Tokyo Mirage Sessions ♯FE Encore
• Super Mario 3D All-Stars
• Pikmin 3 Deluxe
• Pikmin 1+2

Spoiler: Expansions: 11

• Splatoon 2: Octo Expansion
• Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle: Donkey Kong Adventure
• Xenoblade Chronicles 2: Torna ~ The Golden Country
• Fire Emblem: Three Houses - Cindered Shadows
• Pokémon Sword & Shield: The Isle of Armor & The Crown Tundra*
• Animal Crossing: New Horizons - Happy Home Paradise
• Xenoblade Chronicles 3: Future Redeemed
• Splatoon 3: Side Order
• Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope: Rayman in the Phantom Show
• Pokémon Scarlet & Violet: The Teal Mask & The Indigo Disk*
• Fire Emblem Engage: Fell Xenologue

Spoiler: Small Releases: 20

• Snipperclips: Cut it out, together!
• Nintendo Labo Toy-Con 01 Variety Kit
• Nintendo Labo Toy-Con 02 Robot Kit
• Nintendo Labo Toy-Con 03 Vehicle Kit
• Tetris 99
• BOXBOY! + BOXGIRL!
• Nintendo Labo Toy-Con 04 VR Kit
• Cadence of Hyrule: Crypt of the NecroDancer
• Super Kirby Clash
• The Stretchers
• Dr. Kawashima's Brain Training
• Good Job!
• Pokémon Café ReMix
• Kirby Fighters 2
• Super Mario Bros. 35
• Jump Rope Challenge
• Mario Kart Live: Home Circuit
• Pokémon Unite
• Kirby's Dream Buffet
• F-Zero 99

Spoiler: "First Party": 7

• Flip Wars
• Go Vacation
• Fitness Boxing
• Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3: The Black Order
• Daemon X Machina
• Fitness Boxing 2: Rhythm & Exercise
• DC Super Hero Girls: Teen Power

Spoiler: Post-Launch Support: 23

• The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
• Mario Kart 8 Deluxe
• ARMS
• Splatoon 2
• Pokkén Tournament DX
• Fire Emblem Warriors
• Xenoblade Chronicles 2
• Kirby: Star Allies
• Mario Tennis Aces
• Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker
• Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
• Super Mario Maker 2
• Luigi's Mansion 3
• Animal Crossing: New Horizons
• Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity
• New Pokémon Snap
• Mario Golf: Super Rush
• Pokémon Legends: Arceus
• Nintendo Switch Sports
• Xenoblade Chronicles 3
• Splatoon 3
• Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope
• Fire Emblem Engage

Spoiler: Comparisons

The Wii U was out for roughly 4.25 years. The Switch, through the end of June, will have been out for roughly 7.33 years.

The following comparisons are formatted as per year averages for both consoles.

Comparison​	Wii U​	Nintendo Switch​
Big Release​	6.35​	6.96​
Big Release + Remake​	6.35​	8.19​
Big + Remake + Remaster​	7.06​	9.28​
Big + All Rereleases​	7.06​	10.78​
Big + Expansion​	6.59​	8.46​
Big + Small​	8.47​	9.69​
Big + "First Party"​	7.53​	7.91​
All New Content​	9.88​	12.14​
Support​	1.41​	3.14​
All New Content + Rereleases​	10.59​	15.96​
All New Content + Rereleases + Support​	12​	19.1​

In conclusion? Strictly by numerical methods, at least with how I categorised games, the only comparison where the Wii U wins is the most nebulous one: "first party" games, stuff that debatably shouldn't even be included here. The Wii U loses in everything else, and it only gets worse the more you add in. When you include everything, the Nintendo Switch averages over 5 more games per year than the Wii U. Factor in post-launch support, and that number balloons to a full 7 more games per year than the Wii U. This isn't even touching Metascores or the release cadence.

There's certainly an argument to be made that the Switch features some unappealing trends that bolster that number: many games have received artificial post-launch support that should've just been there from the start. But even if you factor that out, there's still a huge difference. The benefits of consolidating development into one handheld are immediately apparent, and when you account for the global pandemic and the growing cost of game development, it only becomes even more obvious.

As has been said multiple times in this thread, numbers don't lie.

Now this is some data analysis. Hot damn.

 

[xghost777]

Some relevant tweets for good measure:

 

[ILikeFeet]

Some relevant tweets for good measure:

the funny thing about the Iwata quote was that this was probably about pre-Nvidia Switch that used Wii U hardware IP

 

[thoughthaver]

In light of the industries layoff, if Nintendo have management issues I'm really fine with their works

if nintendo is mismanaged then holy fuck do I want to know what whatever xbox is doing is

 

[Truno]

Not once did I say that Nintendo itself was mismanaged, but this thread was derailed on the first page so go off

 

[meatbag]

A full, comprehensive list of every game I could find that could theoretically be argued as "first party".

This is absolutely beautiful, you have done a better analysis than anything I could have come up with (I was only planning on listing stuff). Thanks a lot!

 

[xghost777]

Not once did I say that Nintendo itself was mismanaged, but this thread was derailed on the first page so go off

Your thread got co-opted into something different. Sorry!

 

[Tentacle-tropes]

Not once did I say that Nintendo itself was mismanaged, but this thread was derailed on the first page so go off

I get what you were going for but the question you are posing is very difficult to prove. Since quite a few of the games you mention have/need context surrounding them. And, for a few of them sold quite well so their critic/fan reception/score becomes mute to a degree.

This isn’t something like Battlefield where the last several games have been the same repeated mess, just to name an example.

 

[xghost777]

@Truno an answer for your thread. I don’t think there is some big overaching connection here or even much of a problem to begin with. I’ll just go individually.

Next Level - They have had multiple teams in the past so if they had time for Battle League in between whatever the next big game, seems fine to me. This probably got impacted by Covid to some extent.

Fire Emblem - Two different teams made these at once with two different goals. No connection here.

WarioWare - Get It Together to me seems like the follow up to Gold and was a step at trying something new in that space whereas Move It was a follow up to Smooth Moves, Touched, Game and Wario and the like. Essentially both fans of the two WarioWare lines got a game which is commendable and while perhaps neither hit the exact highs of prior games, at least for me Move It in particular was awesome.

Pokemon - sorry they made their best games ever with Legends and SV even with technical problems. Pokemon’s production problems are uniquely Pokemon’s problems too. Can’t remotely agree here this is part of some bigger narrative, but if we want to say yeah there’s trouble here, I mean yeah.

Bayonetta 3 - biggest problem was the story. Not sure any oversight could have changed anything here.

Mario Golf Super Rush - there’s only so many times you can make the same games over and over until you get bored and want to try something new. They tried a different approach to the game and it worked for some and it didn’t work for others. It also ultimately got a generous amount of content and is easily the best of the three Mario sports games on the platform so can’t say I care whatever the initial reception was.

Endless Ocean - this seems in line with the others as someone who just picked up this one. Cool this got made at all for Endless Ocean fans when it is game very much not for everyone.

Super Mario Party - this and Superstars seems more like they didn’t get the budget to be able to have another board or two. Seems like this one should get looked at even with the huge success they saw.

The Origami King - I don’t know, some people like the old games, some like the new, some like both. This seems way too big a topic for this dicussion. We’re also getting the old one back so whatever. Good on Switch again for being cool enough to support both camps.

Retro - Until we know the story here I’m not really sure what we can talk about here. Shame they had a big game or two get canceled, but they are seemingly gearing up for a big return. Hopefully that goes well.

 

[Ricimer]

After wasting a couple hours, here we go. A full, comprehensive list of every game I could find that could theoretically be argued as "first party". Given how tenuous that definition is, this is not a definitive list by any means, so feel free to point out anything I missed or anything you disagree with.

Spoilering this for the sanity of everyone smart enough to stay out of the debate.

Spoiler: This wasn't worth the effort

To start, let's divide these into some categories. There's no clean way to do this, and it's all inherently subjective, but this is what I came up with:

• Big release: Simple enough. As a quick aside, I will be counting Breath of the Wild as a Switch title only, given that was how it was advertised and the Wii U was dead as a doornail when it launched.
• Small release: Reserving this for budget games, free games, or games that are attached to peripherals of some kind that target a different audience. Stuff like Kirby Fighters 2, Tetris 99, and Labo falls under this.
• Remakes: Games that have enough resources invested in them where they're immediately recognizable as different.
• Remasters: Games that are not blatantly new like the previous category, but have enough effort invested where it's still noticeable. Definitely a tenuous category, given how wide of a range that can cover; some games could arguably bump up a category, I don't intend for this one to be derogatory by any means. This ranges from stuff like the upcoming Paper Mario to the Zelda HD games. Also included 3D World + Bowser's Fury, since there isn't really a better home for it.
• Ports: Lowest tier of rereleases, self explanatory.
• Expansions: DLC that's substantial enough to be considered it's own experience. Again, some of these might be debatable, as I haven't played them all.
• Post-launch support: DLC, free or paid, that isn't substantial enough to be considered it's "own thing", but still needs to be noted. Stuff like Smash and Mario Kart. Some games like Splatoon or Xenoblade can qualify for both categories here.
• "First Party": What will probably be the most debatable category. Games that generally, in my experience, aren't really seen as 1st party titles, despite being published by Nintendo. This includes games that have been ported to other platforms after release (Lego City, Daemon X Machina), games with IPs clearly not owned by Nintendo (Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3, Fatal Frame) or games that just seem to be forgotten entirely (Flip Wars, Sing Party). Given that the whole discussion is about droughts, I figured it's worth separating these, since some might not consider them to be a part of the 1st party lineup and therefore not providing relief from a "drought".

Now, time for some counting. A couple game duos have been condensed into one entry for simplicity and will be denoted by an asterisk. The number in each title denotes the total number of games, including expansions. The (+X) denotes games that received post-launch support.

Spoiler: Wii U: 45 (+6)

Spoiler: Big Releases: 27

• Nintendo Land
• New Super Mario Bros. U
• Game & Wario
• Pikmin 3
• Wii Party U
• Wii Fit U
• Super Mario 3D World
• Mario & Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Olympic Winter Games
• Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze
• Mario Kart 8
• Hyrule Warriors
• Bayonetta 2
• Super Smash Bros. for Wii U
• Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker
• Kirby and the Rainbow Curse
• Mario Party 10
• Xenoblade Chronicles X
• Splatoon
• Yoshi's Woolly World
• Super Mario Maker
• Mario Tennis: Ultra Smash
• Animal Crossing: amiibo Festival
• Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE
• Pokkén Tournament
• Star Fox Zero
• Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games
• Paper Mario: Color Splash

Spoiler: Remasters: 3

• The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker HD
• Wii Sports Club
• The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess HD

Spoiler: Expansions: 1

• New Super Luigi U

Spoiler: Small Releases: 9

• Pokémon Rumble U
• NES Remix*
• Dr. Luigi
• Pushmo World
• Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Tipping Stars
• amiibo Tap: Nintendo's Greatest Bits
• Star Fox Guard
• Mini Mario & Friends: amiibo Challenge

Spoiler: "First Party": 5

• Sing Party
• Lego City Undercover
• The Wonderful 101
• Fatal Frame: Maiden of Black Water
• Devil's Third

Spoiler: Post-Launch Support: 6

• Pikmin 3
• Mario Kart 8
• Hyrule Warriors
• Super Smash Bros. for Wii U
• Splatoon
• Super Mario Maker

Spoiler: Nintendo Switch: 117 (+23)

Spoiler: Big Releases: 51

• The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
• 1-2-Switch
• Arms
• Splatoon 2
• Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle
• Fire Emblem Warriors
• Super Mario Odyssey
• Xenoblade Chronicles 2
• Kirby: Star Allies
• Sushi Striker: The Way of Sushido
• Mario Tennis Aces
• Super Mario Party
• Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
• Yoshi's Crafted World
• Super Mario Maker 2
• Fire Emblem Three Houses
• Astral Chain
• Ring Fit Adventure
• Luigi's Mansion 3
• Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games Tokyo 2020
• Pokémon Sword & Shield
• Animal Crossing: New Horizons
• Clubhouse Games: 51 Worldwide Classics
• Paper Mario: The Origami King
• Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity
• New Pokémon Snap
• Game Builder Garage
• Mario Golf: Super Rush
• WarioWare: Get It Together!
• Metroid Dread
• Big Brain Academy: Brain vs. Brain
• Pokémon Legends: Arceus
• Kirby and the Forgotten Land
• Nintendo Switch Sports
• Mario Strikers: Battle League
• Fire Emblem Warriors: Three Hopes
• Xenoblade Chronicles 3
• Splatoon 3
• Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope
• Bayonetta 3
• Pokémon Scarlet & Violet
• Fire Emblem Engage
• Bayonetta Origins: Cereza and the Lost Demon
• The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom
• Everybody's 1-2-Switch
• Pikmin 4
• Detective Pikachu Returns
• Super Mario Bros. Wonder
• WarioWare: Move It!
• Princess Peach: Showtime!
• Endless Ocean: Luminous

Spoiler: Remakes: 9

• Pokémon Let's Go, Pikachu and Eevee!
• The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening
• Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Rescue Team DX
• Famicom Detective Club*
• Mario Party Superstars
• Pokémon Brilliant Diamond & Shining Pearl
• Advance Wars 1+2: Re-Boot Camp
• Super Mario RPG
• Another Code: Recollection

Spoiler: Remasters: 8

• Xenoblade Chronicles: Definitive Edition
• Miitopia
• Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury
• The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword HD
• Metroid Prime Remastered
• Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe
• Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
• Luigi's Mansion 2 HD

Spoiler: Ports: 11

• Mario Kart 8 Deluxe
• Pokkén Tournament DX
• Bayonetta 2
• Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze
• Hyrule Warriors: Definitive Edition
• Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker
• New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe
• Tokyo Mirage Sessions ♯FE Encore
• Super Mario 3D All-Stars
• Pikmin 3 Deluxe
• Pikmin 1+2

Spoiler: Expansions: 11

• Splatoon 2: Octo Expansion
• Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle: Donkey Kong Adventure
• Xenoblade Chronicles 2: Torna ~ The Golden Country
• Fire Emblem: Three Houses - Cindered Shadows
• Pokémon Sword & Shield: The Isle of Armor & The Crown Tundra*
• Animal Crossing: New Horizons - Happy Home Paradise
• Xenoblade Chronicles 3: Future Redeemed
• Splatoon 3: Side Order
• Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope: Rayman in the Phantom Show
• Pokémon Scarlet & Violet: The Teal Mask & The Indigo Disk*
• Fire Emblem Engage: Fell Xenologue

Spoiler: Small Releases: 20

• Snipperclips: Cut it out, together!
• Nintendo Labo Toy-Con 01 Variety Kit
• Nintendo Labo Toy-Con 02 Robot Kit
• Nintendo Labo Toy-Con 03 Vehicle Kit
• Tetris 99
• BOXBOY! + BOXGIRL!
• Nintendo Labo Toy-Con 04 VR Kit
• Cadence of Hyrule: Crypt of the NecroDancer
• Super Kirby Clash
• The Stretchers
• Dr. Kawashima's Brain Training
• Good Job!
• Pokémon Café ReMix
• Kirby Fighters 2
• Super Mario Bros. 35
• Jump Rope Challenge
• Mario Kart Live: Home Circuit
• Pokémon Unite
• Kirby's Dream Buffet
• F-Zero 99

Spoiler: "First Party": 7

• Flip Wars
• Go Vacation
• Fitness Boxing
• Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3: The Black Order
• Daemon X Machina
• Fitness Boxing 2: Rhythm & Exercise
• DC Super Hero Girls: Teen Power

Spoiler: Post-Launch Support: 23

• The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
• Mario Kart 8 Deluxe
• ARMS
• Splatoon 2
• Pokkén Tournament DX
• Fire Emblem Warriors
• Xenoblade Chronicles 2
• Kirby: Star Allies
• Mario Tennis Aces
• Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker
• Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
• Super Mario Maker 2
• Luigi's Mansion 3
• Animal Crossing: New Horizons
• Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity
• New Pokémon Snap
• Mario Golf: Super Rush
• Pokémon Legends: Arceus
• Nintendo Switch Sports
• Xenoblade Chronicles 3
• Splatoon 3
• Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope
• Fire Emblem Engage

Spoiler: Comparisons

The Wii U was out for roughly 4.25 years. The Switch, through the end of June, will have been out for roughly 7.33 years.

The following comparisons are formatted as per year averages for both consoles.

Comparison​	Wii U​	Nintendo Switch​
Big Release​	6.35​	6.96​
Big Release + Remake​	6.35​	8.19​
Big + Remake + Remaster​	7.06​	9.28​
Big + All Rereleases​	7.06​	10.78​
Big + Expansion​	6.59​	8.46​
Big + Small​	8.47​	9.69​
Big + "First Party"​	7.53​	7.91​
All New Content​	9.88​	12.14​
Support​	1.41​	3.14​
All New Content + Rereleases​	10.59​	15.96​
All New Content + Rereleases + Support​	12​	19.1​

In conclusion? Strictly by numerical methods, at least with how I categorised games, the only comparison where the Wii U wins is the most nebulous one: "first party" games, stuff that debatably shouldn't even be included here. The Wii U loses in everything else, and it only gets worse the more you add in. When you include everything, the Nintendo Switch averages over 5 more games per year than the Wii U. Factor in post-launch support, and that number balloons to a full 7 more games per year than the Wii U. This isn't even touching Metascores or the release cadence.

There's certainly an argument to be made that the Switch features some unappealing trends that bolster that number: many games have received artificial post-launch support that should've just been there from the start. But even if you factor that out, there's still a huge difference. The benefits of consolidating development into one handheld are immediately apparent, and when you account for the global pandemic and the growing cost of game development, it only becomes even more obvious.

As has been said multiple times in this thread, numbers don't lie.

Great analysis and better formatting than mine! While we disagree on some definitions/boundaries, your numbers are pretty similar to mine regarding big/small releases.

Our main methodological difference comes from you including more Wii U games in the "first party" category. That goes a long way in explaining the differences in our numbers. Games like Sing Party, Lego City Undercover, The Wonderful 101, and Fatal Frame V I counted as first party games as they were marketed as such and published/funded by Nintendo in all regions, that was the NintendoLife criteria they outlined in their article which I based my analysis on. Games like W101 Nintendo even owned the IP rights before Platinum bought them back years after. Sing Party was even co-developed by Nintendo SPD. I don't think it's fair to categorize them as non-first party games while counting similar partnerships like Bayonetta 2/3 as first party, they were definitely seen as such back in the day.

I feel vindicated in defending my original point that, excluding ports, the Wii U and Switch have similar average outputs for first party games. And that the Switch is a disappointment in regards not beefing up its output as a result of absorbing an entire system's resources.

 

[Hailinel]

Great analysis and better formatting than mine! Your numbers are pretty similar to mine.

I feel vindicated in defending my original point that, excluding ports, the Wii U and Switch have similar average outputs for first party games. And that the Switch is a disappointment in regards not beefing up its output as a result of absorbing an entire system's resources.

You don't get it at all.

 

[Ricimer]

You don't get it at all.

Fantastic and effortful post.

 

[Thunder84]

I feel vindicated in defending my original point that, excluding ports, the Wii U and Switch have similar average outputs for first party games. And that the Switch is a disappointment in regards not beefing up its output as a result of absorbing an entire system's resources.

I truthfully don't know how you reached that point, at all. If you strip the Switch of every single port, remaster, remake, DLC, smaller game, and post-launch support, you reach a number where the Switch is still better than the Wii U. Ignoring that you've set aside a massive amount of development effort put forward by Nintendo.

No, they do not have a similar average output. It's not even remotely close. It's one thing to be disappointed in how they've allocated their resources; that's entirely valid and subjective. But that was not your original point. You argued that consolidation of handheld/console development was a failure. The numbers very clearly and obviously show that it was not, with an average of 5 more games per year and an additional two receiving post-launch support. That increase did not appear out of thin air; it's a direct result of consolidation amongst their development efforts.

No individual console has come close to the consistent stream of support the Switch has received. Feel free to be disappointed in how they've gone about utilizing their resources, but the jump in productivity is undeniable. And that's strictly off of quantity, not getting into gaps in the release calendar, IP representation, and overall quality of games.

 

[meatbag]

I don't think it's fair to categorize them as non-first party games while counting similar partnerships like Bayonetta 2/3, they were definitely seen as such back in the day

If you include those games, then you would also have to include more games for Switch, such as Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3, which were expressly also excluded from the category.

I feel vindicated in defending my original point that, excluding ports, the Wii U and Switch have similar average outputs for first party games. And that the Switch is a disappointment in regards not beefing up its output as a result of absorbing an entire system's resources

With all due respect, I don't understand how you could come to that conclusion based on the numbers presented. The Wii U and Switch clearly do not have similar average outputs.

 

[Ricimer]

I truthfully don't know how you reached that point, at all. If you strip the Switch of every single port, remaster, remake, DLC, smaller game, and post-launch support, you reach a number where the Switch is still better than the Wii U. Ignoring that you've set aside a massive amount of development effort put forward by Nintendo.

You reach a (debatable) number where the Switch is slightly better than the Wii U. Slightly better at best ks a disappointment when the Switch is the successor to the resources of 2 entire systems.

No, they do not have a similar average output. It's not even remotely close. It's one thing to be disappointed in how they've allocated their resources; that's entirely valid and subjective. But that was not your original point. You argued that consolidation of handheld/console development was a failure. The numbers very clearly and obviously show that it was not, with an average of 5 more games per year and an additional two receiving post-launch support. That increase did not appear out of thin air; it's a direct result of consolidation amongst their development efforts.

Your numbers are biased towards the Switch side as you excluded first party games like Sing Party, Lego City Undercover, The Wonderful 101, Fatal Frame V, and Devil's Third from all your calculations. Sorry but if you're counting Bayonetta 2, 3 and Astral Chain as first party games there's no excuse for discounting these games. They were Nintendo funded projects, published by them in all regions, they owned the IP rights to some, and even codevloped some of them. You excluded them because they didn't "feel" like first party games and didn't fit your data.

 

[Ricimer]

If you include those games, then you would also have to include more games for Switch, such as Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3, which were expressly also excluded from the category.

I agree, I included Ultimate Alliance 3 in my calculations for that reason.

It's just a matter of fact that Nintendo relied on collaborations more during the Wii U era. Some companies buying back IP rights and porting their games to other platforms years later doesn't mean they weren't 1st party games at the time. If Platinum buys the rights back to Astral Chain and ports it to other systems in 5 years that doesn't mean the game wasn't considered an important 1st party title Nintendo's 2019 lineup. The same logic applies to all the games I listed.

 

[Hailinel]

Fantastic and effortful post.

With all of the effort that has put in to show your faulty logic and statistics in the clearest terms possible only for you to repeatedly and routinely ignore, willfully misread, or brush off every bit of detail that you can't twist to fit the narrative you desperately want to believe, I know that any report I put together over an evening would be similarly not worth the effort, so why would I bother? You'd just ignore it, isolate a single line of data that fits your argument, and proclaim yourself right that Nintendo are a bunch of flailing dumbasses because you personally haven't seen a new EPD 2D Zelda in five years.

Your only hope is that people stop wasting their breath so you can get a final word in that you're right. But you have no idea what you're talking about, continually move goal posts all over the field, and have not listened to anyone in this thread, and seemingly other threads, on this topic over the past several days at the very least. So I really don't feel inclined to waste my breath.

You have singlehandedly derailed this thread for pages on end because you just can't absorb anything that doesn't fit your skewed logic, and multiple people have explained this to you with no success because you don't want to listen.

So again, why should I bother?

 

[Ricimer]

With all of the effort has put in to show your faulty logic and statistics in the clearest terms possible only for you to repeatedly and routinely ignore, willfully misread, or brush off every bit of detail that you can't twist to fit the narrative you desperately want to believe, I know that any report I put together over an evening would be similarly not worth the effort, so why would I bother? You'd just ignore it, isolate a single line of data that fits your argument, and proclaim yourself right that Nintendo are a bunch of flailing dumbasses because you personally haven't seen a new EPD 2 Zelda in five years.

Your only hope is that people stop wasting their breath so you can get a final word in that you're right. But you have no idea what you're talking about, continually move goal posts all over the field, and have not listened to anyone in this thread, and seemingly other threads, on this topic over the past several days at the very least. So I really don't feel inclined to waste my breath.

You have singlehandedly derailed this thread for pages on end because you just can't absorb anything that doesn't fit your skewed logic, and multiple people have explained this to you with no success because you don't want to listen.

So again, why should I bother?

Honestly you're just assuming the worst possible/made up intentions in all my posts for no justifiable reason. I've addressed criticisms people have responded with and haven't willingly ignored any points people have brought up, I've tried to engage in all responses/counterarguments I've received in good faith, time permitting.

It's clear you're not engaging in any good faith or meaningful discussion in this thread, considering you've mainly made drive-by jabs posts which have contributed absolutely nothing of value. I'm putting you on ignore.

 

[NBOctoling]

You reach a (debatable) number where the Switch is slightly better than the Wii U. Slightly better at best ks a disappointment when the Switch is the successor to the resources of 2 entire systems.

Your numbers are biased towards the Switch side as you excluded first party games like Sing Party, Lego City Undercover, The Wonderful 101, and Fatal Frame V from all your calculations. Sorry but if you're counting Bayonetta 2 and 3 as first party game there's no excuse for discounting these games. They were Nintendo funded projects, published by them in all regions, they owned the IP rights to some, and even codevloped some of them. You excluded them because they didn't "feel" like first party games and didn't fit your data.

Be honest, nothing short of "Ricimer is 100% right, morally and objectively and I must kiss your feet and worship the perfect ground you walk on" is going to be accepted as an actual fact to you.

EDIT: Actually fine, I'll play your dumb game. You are still wrong because you keep slashing, removing, and adding anything to make your point. You deliberately obtuse, obfuscate, and obscure all information until your conclusion is right, regardless of the method! You have done nothing but decalre you're right and refused to think further.

EVEN IF, EVEN IF I accepted your quaint garbage that the Switch is worse than the Wii U in output and that objectively it's a worse console games wise compared to it, you still ignored the sheer increase in team members each game had, the sheer cost of development, and the sheer TIME it takes to create a video game these days! Did you even SEE the credits comparisons between games made in the Wii U and Switch? Or did it go in one ear and out the other because reality can be rejected if it isn't making you right?