In terms of quantity of new first party games. The Switch has more by virtue of all the Wii U ports and having more years on the Wii U. Like yeah if the Wii U was a successful console it would've been supported longer with more first party games.
You didn't answer the question.
I think people vastly overstate how much of the Switch is built on Wii U ports.
You are going based off your feelings "I feel like the Switch output is exactly the same as the Wii U" is differnt from "The Switch's output is exactly the same as the Wii U." I get it, when there are games I don't want to play, the number of games Switch puts out will mean nothing as "games I want to play" is still zero...but that is still different to actual reality. Others play vasts amounts of games you won't touch, it isn't fair nor sensible to discount them for what you want.
Decided to fact check this.
@Thunder84's post is a more appropriate statistical analysis. Doing an average over an entire console's lifespan is more fair than comparing the output over an arbitrary amount of time which for one console is its entire lifespan but for the other is only half. Plus, one of those years for the Switch is the pandemic, which is unfair for obvious reasons. Please number responsibly.
Fair enough, I only formatted it that way because that's what the above people were comparing and asking for (or at least that's how I read it).
| [Wii U - First 50 months] | Major new games | Minor new games | Ports | Remakes |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Nov-Dec 2012 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 |
| 2013 | 5 | 5 | 0 | 1 |
| 2014 | 6 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
| 2015 | 7 | 4 | 0 | 0 |
| 2016 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
| Average (# of games every 10 months): | 4.8 | 2.8 | 0.4 | 0.2 |
| Combined Averages: | Major games + Remakes: 5 | Major + Minor games: 7.6 | Major + Minor + Remakes: 7.8 | Major/Minor/Remakes/Ports: 8.2 |
| [Switch - First 50 months] | Major new games | Minor new games | Ports | Remakes |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 7 | 2 | 2 | 0 |
| 2018 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 1 |
| 2019 | 6 | 3 | 1 | 1 |
| 2020 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 2 |
| Jan-May 2021 | 1.5 | 0 | 2 | 0 |
| Average (# of games every 10 months): | 4.3 | 2 | 2.4 | 0.8 |
| Combined Averages: | Major games + Remakes: 5.1 | Major + Minor games: 7.1 | Major + Minor + Remakes: 7.9 | Major/Minor/Remakes/Ports: 10.3 |
You're making the same mistake as FiniteInfinites.Sure thing! I can provide the Lists Wars(TM) and Charts.
For this list, I'm going to be counting retail titles published and funded by Nintendo. For example, games like Bayonetta 2 and Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3 are counted as First Party titles, as they were funded by Nintendo and published by them everywhere. I'll be excluding titles Nintendo didn't fund and only published in certain regions. For example, Rayman Legends and Octopath Traveler are excluded. This is the same criteria used in Nintendo Life's article about this subject from 2020, and I believe it's fair. I am basing this data off the list of Nintendo Products from Wikipedia.
I'm going to be comparing the first 50 months of the Wii U and Switch. I think this is a fair comparison, 50 months captures almost the entirety of the Wii U's lifespan (November 2012-March 2017), only excluding 3 months in 2017 with no releases besides BOTW. Accordingly, we'll be judging the Switch's output from March 2017-to-May 2021. Obviously COVID's impact to Nintendo's lineup in 2020/2021 is part of this comparison. There's no way to slice a 50 month interval of the Switch's lifespan without including this timeframe unfortunately. I think with Nintendo heavily deprioritizing the Wii U in 2016, shifting internal games/development resources to the Switch and thus making 2016 a weaker year, evens out the impact. Regardless, crunching the numbers and doing a comparison of a 36 month interval to exclude COVID's impact (March 2017-March 2020) produces similar results, and I'd rather capture all of the Wii U's lifespan in this data.
I've categorized every game into 4 subcategories:
The difference between "Major new games" and "Minor new games" is fairly self explanatory. If a game was considered a major new release at the time, I listed it as such. Likewise for minor releases. This is subjective and I know there will be some disagreement. But I considered how the game was positioned and marketed at the time, the scope of the game, and how well Nintendo expected it to sell.
- Major new games
- Minor new games
- Ports
- Remakes
The line between Port and Remake is fuzzy at times. Essentially, if a game got a total graphical overhaul with new assets I counted it as a remake (e.g. Wind Waker HD, SMRPG HD, LA HD). If it game had the same assets as the original release, I counted it as a port (e.g. Bayonetta 1, Twilight Princess HD, MK8DX). I also recognize that remakes can be considered Major releases, for example Wind Waker HD and Link's Awakening HD were heavily marketed and tentpole releases of their respective years. I've included combined averages at the end as a result.
I hope you guys find these classifications generally agreeable.
Anyway, here are the results:
2012 Releases:
2012 Totals:
- November:
- New Super Mario Bros U - Major new game
- Nintendo Land - Major new game
- Sing Party - Minor new game
- December: Nothing
-2 Major new games
-1 Minor new game
2013 Releases:
2013 Totals:
- January: Nothing
- February: Nothing
- March:
- Lego City Undercover - Major new game
- Game & Wario - Minor new game
- April: Nothing
- May: Nothing
- July:
- Pikmin 3 - Major new game
- New Super Luigi U - Minor new game
- August: The Wonderful 101 - Major new game
- September: The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker HD - Remake
- October: Wii Party U - Minor new game
- November:
- Wii Fit U - Minor new Game
- Mario & Sonic 2014 - Minor new game
- Super Mario 3D World - Major new game
- December: Nothing
-4 Major new games
-5 Minor new games
-1 Remake
2014 Releases:
2014 totals:
- January: Nothing
- February: DKC Tropical Freeze - Major new game
- March: Nothing
- April: Nothing
- May: Mario Kart 8 - Major new Game
- June: Nothing
- July: Wii Sports Club - Major new game
- August: Nothing
- September: Hyrule Warriors - Major new game
- October:
- Bayonetta 1 - Port
- Bayonetta 2 - Major new Game
- November: Super Smash Bros 4 - Major new game
- December: Captain Toad Treasure Tracker - Minor new game
- NES Remix Pack - Minor new game
-6 Major new games
-2 Minor new games
-1 Port
2015 Releases:
2015 Totals:
- January: Nothing
- February: Kirby and the Rainbow Curse - Minor new game
- March: Mario Party 10 - Major new game
- April: Nothing
- May: Splatoon - Major new game
- June: Art Academy: Home Studio - Minor new game
- July: Nothing
- August: Nothing
- September: Super Mario Maker - Major new game
- October:
- Yoshi's Woolly World - Major new game
- Fatal Frame: Maiden of the Black Water - Major new game
- November:
- Animal Crossing: Amiibo Festival - Minor new game
- Mario Tennis: Ultra Smash - Major new game
- December:
- Xenoblade Chronicles X - Major new game
- Devil's Third - Minor new game
-7 major new games
-4 minor new games
2016 Releases:
2016 Totals:
- January: Nothing
- February: Nothing
- March:
- Twilight Princess HD - Port
- Pokken Tournament - Major new game
- April:
- Star Fox Zero - Major new game
- Star Fox Guard - Minor new game
- May: Nothing
- June:
- Tokyo Mirage Sessions#FE - Major new game
- Mario & Sonic 2016 - Minor new game
- July: Nothing
- August: Nothing
- September: Paper Mario Color Splash - Major new game
- October: Nothing
- November: Nothing
- December: Nothing
-4 Major new games
-2 Minor new games
-1 Port
2017 Releases:
2017 Totals:
- January: Nothing
- February: Nothing
- March:
- The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild - Major new game
- 1-2-Switch Minor new game
- April: Mario Kart 8 Deluxe - Port
- May: Nothing
- June: Arms - Major new game
- July: Splatoon 2 - Major new Game
- August: Mario + Rabbids - Major new game
- September: Pokken Tournament DX - Port
- October: Fire Emblem Warriors - Major new game
- November: Super Mario Odyssey - Major new game
- December: Xenoblade Chronicles 2 - Major new game
-7 Major new games
-2 Minor new game
-2 Ports
2018 Releases:
2018 Totals:
- January: Nothing
- February: Bayonetta 1/2 - Port
- March:
- Kirby Star Allies - Major new game.
- Hyrule Warriors DE - Port.
- April: Labo Kits 1/2 - Minor new games
- May: Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze - Port
- June:
- Sushi Striker - Minor new game.
- Mario Tennis Aces - Major new game
- July: Captain Toad - Port
- August: Nothing
- September: Labo Kit 3 - Minor new game.
- October: Super Mario Party - Major new game
- November: Pokemon Let's Go - Remake
- December: Super Smash Bros Ultimate - Major new game
-4 Major new games
-2-4 Minor new games (depending on how you count Labo kits)
-4 Ports
-1 Remake
2019 Releases:
2019 Totals:
- January: New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe - Port
- February: Nothing
- March: Yoshi's Crafted World - Major new game
- April: Labo Kit 4 - Minor new game
- May: Nothing
- June: Super Mario Maker 2 - Major new game
- July:
- Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3 - Minor new game
- Fire Emblem: Three Houses - Major new game
- August: Astral Chain - Major new game
- September: The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening - Remake
- October:
- Ring Fit Adventure - Minor new game
- Luigi's Mansion 3 - Major new game
- November: Pokemon Sword/Sword - Major new game
- December: Nothing
-6 Major new games
-3 Minor new games
-1 Port
-1 Remake
2020 Releases:
2020 Totals:
- January: Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE Encore - Port
- February: Nothing
- March: Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Rescue Team DX - Remake.
- Animal Crossing New Horizons - Major new game.
- April: Nothing
- May: Xenoblade Chronicles: Definitive Edition - Remake
- June: Clubhouse Games - 51 Worldwide Classics - Minor new game
- July: Paper Mario: The Origami King - Major new game
- August: Nothing
- September: Super Mario 3D All-Stars - Port
- October: Pikmin 3 Deluxe - Port
- November: Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity - Major new game
- December: Nothing
-3 Major new games
-1 Minor new game
-3 Ports
-2 Remakes
2021 Releases:
2021 Totals:
- January: Nothing
- February: Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury - Port + Half a major new game
- March: Nothing
- April: New Pokemon Snap - Major new game
- May: Miitopia - Port
- June:
- Game Builder Garage - Minor new game.
- Mario Golf Super Rush - Major new game
- July: Skyward Sword HD - Port
- August: Nothing
- September: WarioWare: Get it Together - Minor new game
- October: Metroid Dread - Major new game.
- Mario Party Superstars - Major new game
- November: Pokemon BDSP - Remake
- December: Big Brain Academy: Brain vs. Brain - Minor new game
-4.5 Major new games
-3 Minor new games
-3 Ports
-1 Remake
Data:
[Wii U - First 50 months] Major new games Minor new games Ports Remakes Nov-Dec 2012 2 1 0 0 2013 5 5 0 1 2014 6 2 1 0 2015 7 4 0 0 2016 4 2 1 0 Average (# of games every 10 months): 4.8 2.8 0.4 0.2 Combined Averages: Major games + Remakes:
5Major + Minor games:
7.6Major + Minor + Remakes:
7.8Major/Minor/Remakes/Ports:
8.2
[Switch - First 50 months] Major new games Minor new games Ports Remakes 2017 7 2 2 0 2018 4 4 4 1 2019 6 3 1 1 2020 3 1 3 2 Jan-May 2021 1.5 0 2 0 Average (# of games every 10 months): 4.3 2 2.4 0.8 Combined Averages: Major games + Remakes:
5.1Major + Minor games:
7.1Major + Minor + Remakes:
7.9Major/Minor/Remakes/Ports:
10.3
In conclusion:
If you guys notice any errors with this data please let me know.
- Switch's output of 'Major Games' Is slightly less than the Wii U's
- Major games + Remakes is nearly equal between the Switch and Wii U.
- Major games + Minor games + Remakes is nearly equal between the Switch and Wii U.
- Including ports, the total average favors the Switch over the Wii U.
- Excluding ports, the Switch's output of 1st Party Games is roughly on par with the Wii U's.
Okay. He crunched the numbers for the average across the Switch's entire lifespan:
It still shows the Wii U and Switch have roughly equal first party outputs. This just vindicates my original point further, that the Switch has the output of a solo Nintendo system when it's the successor to 2.
WarioWare is positioned as a $50 retail game, I consider that a minor release. Game & Wario and WW Get it Together have the same classification. Ring Fit I consider on-par with Wii Fit U. Neither were positioned as major titles when they came out. Ring Fit just sold way better since it was on successful hardware, it was a sleeper hit.
You're using selective data to come to the conclusion you want.
What data is selective? Feel free to point it out specifically. I agree that Fatal Frame and Ultimate Alliance 3 should have the same classification in hindsight here. Putting both as minor games is -1 major release on the Wii U side for 2015. 1 game doesn't change the averages significantly.
The first fifty months of the Switch's lifespan includes the pandemic year of 2020 and the fallout year of 2021.
Did you even read my post? I wrote a whole paragraph addressing this...
Putting aside even the subjective features of the breakdown and how you want to handwave away the impact of the pandemic year (which you shouldn’t!), this release calendar breakdown only serves to highlight the original issue here that Wii U had many big gaps between software while Switch has not outside of one time in the pandemic year, December 2020 and January 2021, which is the only time we went two back to back months skipping software. By comparison, it happens seven(!) times on Wii U including three months off after launch and five months off between Paper Mario and Zelda! This is the only reason we are having this two day conversation to begin with! By your own charts and what counts, we can safely say the first six months of 2024 absolutely is not a drought!
Ok, I'll admit that's fair
I wrote about why I included the COVID year, I'm not handwaving it it's explicitly accounted for. I crunched the numbers for a 36 month interval that excludes any possible COVID impact and it's largely the same. I felt including the full 50 month Wii U lifespan was more important. That's also ignoring the fact Nintendo started to abandon the Wii U ship in 2016 resulting in a similarly negative year.
I listed all the Mario Sports/Party spinoffs as major titles, I thought that was universally fair. I know Mario Golf Super Rush had similar complaints levied against like Ultra Tennis (lack of content, etc) and I still listed that as a major title. I haven't played any of them honestly so I don't have first hand experience.
Your major/minor classification is entirely subjective.
I also wonder why Nintendo didn't train their/prepare employees with HD development... God, the Wii U really was a string incompetence, bad management, people whose job was to market the damn thing failed miserably to so. Also the lack of third party support, those really were the dark ages weren't they.
Yes, I said it was ultimately subjective at the very start. That's why I included combined averages that lump anything listed as major/minor together. I did major + remakes, major + minor, and major+minor+remakes.
That's because the Switch is a solo Nintendo system; just because it's the successor to both the home and handheld consoles doesn't mean it'll get the combined total output that would come to both. You seem to be blatantly ignoring the various reasons many of us are giving you as to why in favor of trying to push this narrative of yours.
You keep trying to drag people into other conversations you want to have, but the reason you started arguing about this and all of the other elements you have dragged into this two days ago in the Direct Speculation thread was all to support your claim that the first six months of 2024 had games that didn’t count and that we were in a drought from a lack of releases. Your own breakdown of what counts and what doesn’t disproves this.
Ports are still releases, and they do require dev effort and time.
The Switch is a solo Nintendo system that absorbed the development manpower which drove 2. Like I said before, I don't think it's reasonable to expect a pure doubling for the reasons you listed. But I expected more than the output that's literally on par with the Wii U. Like I expected a 1.3x or a 1.5x increase in games since the Switch absorbed the handheld line, instead we got a 1.0.
Ultimately I think this pursuit is flawed and not really worth pursuing. I appreciate your determination to apply math to your theory to prove it true but as many of the responses indicate it is far too subjective and/or complicated for the kind quantitative analysis one might perform on a message board.
Your math was never realistic or reasonable to begin with. You keep making the same flawed arguments over and over and over again, at the same time acknowledging 2020 without actually taking it into account.
And you keep making totally vague counterarguments that completely ignore the conversation and don't actually address any points I've made in response to you. It's not worth engaging in this conversation with you any longer.
The discussion here is largely separate from discussion in the Speculation thread from two days ago. I'm specifically arguing the point that the Switch's output wasn't beefed up by absorbing the handheld line, and it has an output on par with the Wii U. The list was a direct respone to everyone doubting that point. I'm not dragging anyone into having any conversation, I'm just defending my points.
Yet you're glossing over the fact that it got progressively more difficult for Nintendo to support two systems simultaneously, hence the frequent droughts the Wii U and 3DS would experience. Your expectations have no basis in reality outside of the simplistic logic of 1+1=2. You are not taking any of the reasons we are providing into consideration outside of whatever you can twist to try to fit your narrative.
Vague counterarguments to arguments that are neither focused, well-reasoned, or demonstrate proper statistical analysis. Multiple people have brought these issues with your arguments up to you and you keep ignoring them.
You nor anbody else nobody has provided any actual counterarguments to the label-agonsitic "major games + minor games + remakes" average between the Wii U and Switch I listed, or the numbers InfiniteFinites listed. It's all been semantic debates about the labels and categories, despite those specific averages being explicitly included to avoid any arguments about the categories. You're explicitly avoiding specifics and are just making general jabs. That speaks volumes.
HD development doesn't requiere a fundamentally different skillset from SD development. Higher fidelity assets just take longer to make.
Drought debates will continue until morale improves.Hey there, fami, are we done debating about...
No, it isn't. You can't just cut out half of the Switch's lifespan for an arbitrary reason when the discussion centers around the consoles as a whole. Especially when the justification for including COVID is due to the Wii U being a complete and utter flop and Nintendo cutting development early. One of those was in Nintendo's control, the other was not.
Numbers don’t lie, but their combined form of statistics and data can do, when they are massaged, misrepresented or distorted through the choice of what is included and excluded, especially when pushing to reach a pre-determined conclusion to support an argument. ‘Garbage in, garbage out’, something becoming more and more frightening when AI works on flawed or biased data sets.
What particular stats are massaged, misrepresented, and distorted if you don't mind me asking? Please be specific. I tried to be as objective and neutral as possible, there's some stuff I missed (I forgot games like Torna and Cadence of Hyrule got retail releases for instance), but I was pretty open in the post asking people to correct any errors they saw. Also, like I said in the post, a range excluding any COVID impact (a 36 month interval) produces the the same averages, I just wanted to include the entire Wii U's lifespan. More importantly, FiniteInfinite's number crunching reaches the exact same conclusion I did, and they're seemingly free from any biases in this conversation. Everybody keeps ignoring this last point for some reason.
My point was that you left the conversation quoting ‘numbers don’t lie’, as if that’s a final, definitive statement proving your argument correct, when clearly there were mistakes in your dataset. I’m also not convinced by this argument reducing everything down to numbers when it ignores that Switch development takes a lot longer, ignores ports, and ignores major pieces of DLC, in order to reach your conclusion that the Switch is only comparable to the WiiU (as long as you ignore enough pieces of software). For the first two years of Switch’s lifespan, Nintendo was also supporting the 3DS, then we were straight into Covid. There are now shedloads more smaller titles on the eshop from third parties than there ever were on WiiU, which means Nintendo tentpole releases tend to be bigger affairs to stand out, and even the releases in their traditionally portable series now take much longer to develop.
