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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

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MP! said:
I mean
The ink shot can start shooting at the first degree of motion on an analog trigger
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do you play a lot of splatoon? because that sounds kind of horrible to me

I'd be very interested to see a solution for controlling range of motion settings, like on the premium xbox elite controllers, programmatically/dynamically
 
Any game that requires quick input from triggers would be immediately ruined, like basically every rhythm game that uses ZL/ZR.

I still think pressure-sensitive digital triggers are the way to go for the best of both worlds, though.
 
I've been playing Overwatch/2 for like 6 years on PC with controllers (I know, I know, controller on PC for FPS bad, but I dislike KB&M controls and I only play for fun, I don't touch the competitive scene) and I honestly never even realised that people would have a preference for digital over analogue triggers or that one benefitted over the other. I played originally with my trusty Sixaxis controller I had since 2009 until that died last year and now I use an 8Bitdo Ultimate controller, both of which have analogue triggers. Maybe I've just been shooting myself in the foot these past 6 years without even realising it. 😅
 
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Concernt said:
If they're analogue triggers in the traditional sense, I absolutely will. Pressure sensitive, sure, but Splatoon needs that instant click, as do a lot of shooters.
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I will say in defense of analog triggers, even though I just got done defending against it, it’s not as though analog triggers don’t have any input when you light press them, and only provide an input when fully depressed.

So if it’s about the amount of travel in the trigger, a gun shouldn’t have to require a full depress to execute a fire command on a controller.

In another example, reminds me like using the analog stick to move your character vs. WASD on a keyboard. Analog sticks don’t require you to fully go in one direction for the character to move, just move faster is all. Depending on the type of game you’re playing, this could be a benefit or a detriment, but the function is still the same.

As a side note, more slower paced games work well with analog stick I feel for things like creeping up, especially if playing something with stealth in kind. That, and more adventure type games to soak in all the details and locales. That’s just me though.

That, and my wife gets motion sickness easily if I’m playing things at a faster rate, so games where I can slow the movements down, she can actually watch me for a good time.
 
Shoulder said:
I will say in defense of analog triggers, even though I just got done defending against it, it’s not as though analog triggers don’t have any input when you light press them, and only provide an input when fully depressed.
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I... Never said that they don't have any input until fully depressed?

I'm saying that the instant click benefits shooters. Made very plainly obvious by, as I said, "Elite" controllers that have a switch to nix the analogue part of the triggers.

As others have pointed out, it's also bad for rhythm games that use it, which are more than you might think.

Splatoon's squeezers and chargers can't just be adapted to work with marshmallows for triggers, the gameplay is designed with the digital triggers in mind. If you try to make them all work with the same degree of input, that's going to be... Bad?

So the question remains unanswered, why would they make one of the biggest franchises worse, when it also presents other challenges?

Other challenges that nobody seems to have even considered, people are just focussed on the gameplay implementation, as if that can't be done with pressure sensitivity. It feels like people just want "the done thing" without consideration for how it works in gameplay - but of all companies, ignoring gameplay to do "the done thing" is not something one can reasonably expect of Nintendo.
 
Shoulder said:
And then with a six-shooter, got that hair trigger.
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Capacitive pressure sensitive shoulder buttons could do that! Or even just pressure sensitive triggers. Not enough pressure to depress the digital switch, but enough to be sensed, hair trigger.
 
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kvetcha said:
heck, real guns have variable trigger pressures. analog triggers could be used to provide additional mechanical variation between weapons.
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So you're telling me we could have a game with a Steyr AUG that has a realistic progressive trigger? Sold.
 
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JoshuaJSlone said:
The solution to this wasn't "never add analog sticks to controllers" or "control 3D platformers with pressure sensitive d-pad", though.
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Comparing pressure sensitivity rather than linear resistivity to pressure sensitive four way directional buttons rather than 360 degree input is a false equivalence. Pressure sensitivity has a different physical response but the same (or more) degrees of input compared to a linear trigger, that's not true for a pressure sensitive d-pad. That's just not engaging with the problem in a genuine way.
 
Concernt said:
I... Never said that they don't have any input until fully depressed?

I'm saying that the instant click benefits shooters. Made very plainly obvious by, as I said, "Elite" controllers that have a switch to nix the analogue part of the triggers.

As others have pointed out, it's also bad for rhythm games that use it, which are more than you might think.

Splatoon's squeezers and chargers can't just be adapted to work with marshmallows for triggers, the gameplay is designed with the digital triggers in mind. If you try to make them all work with the same degree of input, that's going to be... Bad?

So the question remains unanswered, why would they make one of the biggest franchises worse, when it also presents other challenges?

Other challenges that nobody seems to have even considered, people are just focussed on the gameplay implementation, as if that can't be done with pressure sensitivity. It feels like people just want "the done thing" without consideration for how it works in gameplay - but of all companies, ignoring gameplay to do "the done thing" is not something one can reasonably expect of Nintendo.
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Perhaps I’m not understanding here?

You said the instant clickiness benefits more competitive shooters, which is true. I’m not going to argue that. Though I did say it is just as easily possible for analog triggers to provide an input the moment it is slightly pressed, so it acts like a digital trigger. Now, you’re likely talking about the “travel” of the trigger more than anything, hence why switching aim/fire inputs to be part of the L1/R1 buttons aka shoulder buttons.

To your own question I bolded, one explanation I can think of it’s not just about Nintendo here? Say Nintendo decides to make the triggers analog/pressure (variable is the key distinction here), it might be more about how other developers wanted this feature, or heavily requested it. How does that affect an IP like Splatoon? I think like most games out there, they’ll adapt some way or another, whether we like the changes or not.

To your last question about Pressure sensitive buttons/triggers, I’m also not against it. But I’m also a little confused on the wording. I mention gameplay implementation because…that’s the only thing that matters? I guess What am I missing from your question?

Not trying to make things heated btw. Just having a conversation.
 
Shoulder said:
Perhaps I’m not understanding here?

You said the instant clickiness benefits more competitive shooters, which is true. I’m not going to argue that. Though I did say it is just as easily possible for analog triggers to provide an input the moment it is slightly pressed, so it acts like a digital trigger. Now, you’re likely talking about the “travel” of the trigger more than anything, hence why switching aim/fire inputs to be part of the L1/R1 buttons aka shoulder buttons.

To your own question I bolded, one explanation I can think of it’s not just about Nintendo here? Say Nintendo decides to make the triggers analog/pressure (variable is the key distinction here), it might be more about how other developers wanted this feature, or heavily requested it. How does that affect an IP like Splatoon? I think like most games out there, they’ll adapt some way or another, whether we like the changes or not.

To your last question about Pressure sensitive buttons/triggers, I’m also not against it. But I’m also a little confused on the wording. I mention gameplay implementation because…that’s the only thing that matters? I guess What am I missing from your question?

Not trying to make things heated btw. Just having a conversation.
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The travel is the problem, not just how much pressure it takes to make an input.

Nintendo's own games matter more to Nintendo than third parties, especially when it comes to console design.

Gameplay is also, objectively, not the only thing that matters. The console's design, appeal, size, and comfort matters. The classical approach of a big squishy linear analogue trigger presents a design challenge AND makes Nintendo's OWN games less responsive. That is a ridiculous trade, and they know that. It's easier to go with their tried and true kind of trigger, and its relatively compact size and quick response, and if they want to add analogue input, they can do that without sacrificing feel, nor responsiveness, nor size, with pressure sensitivity.

It's not merely that analogue input is worse- I never argued that in a vacuum, but that linear, squishy analogue triggers are bad, especially for major Nintendo games (for instance, Mario Kart 8), because they are. It's that yes an analogue input is good, no, the spring loaded, long travel triggers we see on other platforms doesn't work for Nintendo's purposes.

To reiterate, harder to design, bulkier, and with a worse response that affects Nintendo's own games, that isn't something Nintendo is likely to do. Especially when alternatives exist where they can have their variable input without sacrificing the physical response of digital.
 
YugamiSekai said:
Any game that requires quick input from triggers would be immediately ruined, like basically every rhythm game that uses ZL/ZR.

I still think pressure-sensitive digital triggers are the way to go for the best of both worlds, though.
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Personally my preference would be to leave ZL and ZR alone, and make L and R fancy pants multi-input buttons. Capacitance for a hair trigger response and scrolling shoulder buttons, the classic digital click for most games, and then pressure sensitivity after that.
Notable also that this has classically been Nintendo's approach; the L and R buttons on GCN and Wii Classic Controller were digital-analogue, not the Z buttons. By putting that input back into L and R, squeezing L on the NG Switch controller maps to squeezing L on a GCN controller, just with a difference in feedback. Far more games depend on the instant response of the trigger than depend on the nuance of a trigger that physically moves as you press it, especially since pressure sensitivity can be calibrated so, say, 50% on an Xbox controller, which moves the trigger halfway in, takes the same actual pressure on NG Switch, but without the trigger (or in this case, shoulder button) moving.

Having them be capacitive also allows for a huge range of sensitivity. From the slightest touch, to a digital click, to a full press that makes the controller rumble.
 
Concernt said:
Other challenges that nobody seems to have even considered, people are just focussed on the gameplay implementation, as if that can't be done with pressure sensitivity. It feels like people just want "the done thing" without consideration for how it works in gameplay - but of all companies, ignoring gameplay to do "the done thing" is not something one can reasonably expect of Nintendo.
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Because I despise pressure sensitive buttons even more than analog triggers. PS2 and PS3 tried them and they all feel worse than analog triggers. Hell, even though the DualShock 3 had pressure sensitive buttons on L1/R1, L2/R2 still moved to analog triggers.

It's simply not as good feeling or intuitive as analog triggers which has more physical feedback where you know exactly at what point you're at, instead of fumbling with pressure sensitive anything.

if I had my way, I would take after the GameCube and even DualSense with adaptive triggers, which could end up doing more with them by having two-stage actions.

Make no mistake though, I also prefer digital triggers because I don't play too much racing games, but I'm unconvinced pressure sensitivity would work better for racing games.
 
Concernt said:
Comparing pressure sensitivity rather than linear resistivity to pressure sensitive four way directional buttons rather than 360 degree input is a false equivalence. Pressure sensitivity has a different physical response but the same (or more) degrees of input compared to a linear trigger, that's not true for a pressure sensitive d-pad. That's just not engaging with the problem in a genuine way.
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If you wanted to do "30% up, 50% right" or any other arbitrary direction/force with pressure sensitive d-pad you could, it would just be hella more difficult and stupid. The simpler solution and one that won out was just sticking both a regular d-pad and regular analog stick side by the side. The same basic solution for shoulders in place on GameCube and by now standardized on MS/Sony controllers.
 
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Not that i condone hacking or anything but if Ubisoft were to get hacked, wouldn't that lead to possibly proving they are already developing games for the next Switch and also potentially its codename
 
Thraktor said:
I'd still say UFS is much more likely for internal storage, just as it's a better fit for Nintendo's use-case, but I wouldn't rule out NVMe on power consumption grounds, which I would have before.

It solves the mystery of why UFS drives are so much more efficient than NVMe drives, though: they're not, I've just been comparing the wrong numbers. Samsung's claims for the power efficiency of their UFS 4.0 parts are "6.0Mbps per 1mA of sequential read speed", which is a like-for-like comparison to the read power for the NVMe drives I was looking at, and comes to 920mW, which would be 4.6GB/s per Watt. The SN770M hits around 5GB/s per Watt, and the MP600 Mini around 4.8GB/s per Watt, so they're all in the same ballpark.
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Do you think Nintendo can use M2 2230 NVMe drives for storage expansion while having UFS 3.1 for the main internal storage solution. This could help alleviate slow read speeds from microSD for Switch 2 games, in addition with NVMe having low power consumptions (1 Watt) based on read speeds.
Thraktor said:
I've been reading through reviews of some M.2 2230 drives recently (considering upgrading my Steam Deck), and I've realised that modern NVMe drives are actually a lot more power-efficient than I thought for gaming use cases, like the Steam Deck, or, hypothetically, a Switch 2.

Here are two reviews of recently released PCIe 4.0 2230 drives; the WD Black SN770M and the Corsair MP600 Mini. In particular, I'd like to focus on these two graphs, plotting sequential read and write speeds against power consumption:

power-fixed-speed.png


power-fixed-speed.png


Both of these drives, with sequential reads and sufficient block size/queue depth, are faster than PS5's SSD. They also both consume less than 1.5W when reading, even at full speed, with the SN770M topping out at 1.2W and the MP600 Mini hitting a peak of 1.4W. (Power consumption under random reads is the same, by the way).

These graphs really highlight why peak power consumption for SSDs isn't a relevant metric for gaming. The SN770M peaks at 4.7W, and the MP600 Mini at 3.6W, but that's only under extremely fast writes, which don't happen in a gaming use-case. The most intensive writes you're going to get will be downloading games or patches, but they'll be limited to a tiny fraction of the drive's performance by your internet connection. Even if you have 1Gb/s broadband, and the server can keep up, you're going to hit at most 125MB/s, which is on the very far left of these graphs. That's under 1.5W on both drives.

Another interesting thing is that the power consumption of reads is basically flat w.r.t. speeds on both devices. The SN770M consumes 1W up to about 2.2GB/s, then 1.1W up to 6GB/s, and 1.2W at the very peak. The MP600 Mini consumes 1.3W at very low read speeds, and then 1.4W all the way from 500MB/s to 6.8GB/s. This is pretty surprising to me, as I would have expected some kind of slope here. Not as steep a slope as for writes, where the flash controller has a lot more work to do (wear levelling, etc.), but some kind of meaningfully increased power draw as speeds increase. I definitely wouldn't have expected a drive to draw 1.0W at 100MB/s and 1.1W at 6GB/s, which is basically within the margin of error power difference for a 60x difference in speed.

One result of this is that there aren't any power savings to be made by throttling the drive down, say by running it on only 1 or 2 PCIe lanes. For the MP600 Mini, the power consumption at 1.75GB/s (1 lane) or 3.5GB/s (2 lanes) is literally identical to running at full speed on 4 lanes, and on the SN770M it's only marginally different. In fact, if the system isn't bottlenecked elsewhere, they should be more power efficient to run at full speed, as data can be loaded quickly and the drive can return to a sleep state quicker.

Speaking of sleep states, that's one area where the two drives differ quite a lot. With PCIe low-power states enabled, the MP600 Mini consumes just 92mW when idle, whereas the SN770M consumes 989mW, which is far higher, and pretty much the same power it draws when reading at up to 2GB/s. Because gaming workloads are bursty, the drive will spend the majority of its time idle, so the MP600 Mini is actually the better pick for power efficiency, despite its higher power draw while reading. The SN770M has an OEM version called the SN740, which WD claims has "average active power" (basically idle power) of 65mW, so I'd guess that the gaming-oriented SN770M has its firmware configured to prevent it from properly entering sleep states.

Despite this, I still think eUFS is far, far more likely for Switch 2 than an NVMe drive. A major factor here is that a UFS module simply takes up a lot less space than an M.2 2230 drive. For a space-constrained device like the Switch, that's something Nintendo will be very conscious of. BGA NVMe drives were a thing, but it seems like they didn't really take off, and as far as I can tell neither Samsung nor Kioxia (who had both pushed the format) have BGA NVMe drives still in production. For reference, from what I've read, UFS peaks at around 1W for UFS 3 or 4, and around 1.65W for UFS 2.

It probably gives us a very good idea of PCIe 4.0 CFexpress card power consumption, though. The MP600 Mini uses the Phison E21 controller, which is used in basically every current 2230 drive outside of WD and Samsung (who design controllers in-house), so is likely to be the standard for PCIe 4.0 CFe cards as well. The SN770M uses WD's in-house 20-82-10081 controller, which is almost certainly what they'll use for Sandisk's PCIe 4.0 CFe cards. For a CFe Type A card with read speeds of ~1.75GB/s, that would put peak read power consumption at 1.0W for Sandisk cards and 1.4W for non-Sandisk cards.
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This is good info from what Thraktor posted earlier and it had me thinking about Nintendo possibly utilizing this for expansion purposes. Do you think Nintendo can use M2 2230 NVMe drives for storage expansion while having UFS 3.1 for the main internal storage solution. This could help alleviate slow read speeds from microSD for Switch 2 games, in addition with NVMe having low power consumptions (1 Watt based on graph) based on read speeds. I could see Nintendo providing 128-256 GB of UFS storage while having the consumer relying on NVMe for expanding Switch 2's storage. It may also explain that if the rumor screen is larger, they may be able to accommodate NVMe support for a slightly larger form factor.
 
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Concernt said:
The travel is the problem, not just how much pressure it takes to make an input.

Nintendo's own games matter more to Nintendo than third parties, especially when it comes to console design.

Gameplay is also, objectively, not the only thing that matters. The console's design, appeal, size, and comfort matters. The classical approach of a big squishy linear analogue trigger presents a design challenge AND makes Nintendo's OWN games less responsive. That is a ridiculous trade, and they know that. It's easier to go with their tried and true kind of trigger, and its relatively compact size and quick response, and if they want to add analogue input, they can do that without sacrificing feel, nor responsiveness, nor size, with pressure sensitivity.

It's not merely that analogue input is worse- I never argued that in a vacuum, but that linear, squishy analogue triggers are bad, especially for major Nintendo games (for instance, Mario Kart 8), because they are. It's that yes an analogue input is good, no, the spring loaded, long travel triggers we see on other platforms doesn't work for Nintendo's purposes.

To reiterate, harder to design, bulkier, and with a worse response that affects Nintendo's own games, that isn't something Nintendo is likely to do. Especially when alternatives exist where they can have their variable input without sacrificing the physical response of digital.
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There is definitely added complexity, which may also have an effect on overall reliability in the long term, though I think the concerns you’re presenting are a bit overblown.

You said Nintendo does what benefits them first, and quite honestly, I think the Switch is an example of Nintendo going against what they’ve typically done in previous generations. After sticking with PowerPC for over a decade, or making systems that were in some cases a nightmare for developers (talking N64 here), a system with vastly inferior graphics that required full from-the-ground-up development, strong-armed 3rd parties until Sony came into the picture (simplifying a bit, but you get the picture), couldn’t care less about Indies at first (also Wii), to now being fully onboard with Indies, hardware that is stupid easy to program for, and rebuilding their trust in major 3rd party partners. This isn’t the same Nintendo from the 2000s, let alone the 90s during the Yamauchi era.

Like I said originally, my personal belief is digital triggers work perfectly fine for the vast majority of applications, and at the same token, analog triggers aren’t necessarily needed. That also said, what my beliefs are vs. what the industry wants aren’t the same. So if Variable triggers are in the picture, I’m not against it, especially if Nintendo can find creative ways to utilize it.

I’d like to see more Mario Sunshine style implementations of variable triggers. And knowing Nintendo, there are probably some unexplored possibilities out there.

Plus, maybe the use of variable would create new gameplay elements for a future Splatoon title. Who knows?
 
What's this about a Ubisoft leak/hack? I've only seen one tweet referencing 800-900GB of data stolen but absolutely no other context nor any news on it otherwise
 
NintenDuvo said:
Not that i condone hacking or anything but if Ubisoft were to get hacked, wouldn't that lead to possibly proving they are already developing games for the next Switch and also potentially its codename
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We already know Ubisoft is developing for the Switch 2, and a few members here already know the codename. I imagine there would be a lot more information than that, but I haven't even heard of this until now (and it seems people are saying that nothing actually leaked?)
 
redmutineer75 said:
And now people on Twitter are doomposting about how a Switch flash drive will mean no backwards compatibility for Switch 2 🙃
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The only thing that concerns me about the flashcart is that it implies fake Switch cartridges are also now possible, which will be really annoying in the future when trying to buy second-hand Switch games
 
Meelow said:
3D Mario definitely. Nintendo planning for TOTK to release on Switch probably meant they didn't think it was worth putting a new 3D Mario on Switch and that they wanted to make sure a big ip would be available at launch.
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i believe by 2025, the next Mario Kart, Kirby most be ready to release on Switch sucessor
 
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YugamiSekai said:
Any game that requires quick input from triggers would be immediately ruined, like basically every rhythm game that uses ZL/ZR.

I still think pressure-sensitive digital triggers are the way to go for the best of both worlds, though.
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I play theatrhythm with ZL and ZR and it would be hell on a PS controller. Same with Taiko but since I play taiko a lot on PS I decided to use face buttons for consistency
 
Individualised said:
We already know Ubisoft is developing for the Switch 2, and a few members here already know the codename. I imagine there would be a lot more information than that, but I haven't even heard of this until now (and it seems people are saying that nothing actually leaked?)
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Yes but at least this way we would have definitive proof that the device exists because for now we only have people words
 
Historically we often get reports from Nikkei and other Japanese outlets in January when it comes to new hardware, supply chain activity, etc. So that's what I'm eyeing next as to when we might get some news.
 
Going back to the m.2 discussion, a thought had occurred to me.

When Apple was developing the original iPod, the opportunity arose for a super small spinning HDD to be used for the amount of storage Jobs wanted.

At the 11th hour, it was discovered that either a bug or something meant the HDD was always spinning when playing music, effectively making the battery life for the iPod not 10hrs like what Steve Jobs wanted, but more like 3. In the end, they found a way to load music into memory, so the HDD would only spin when it needed to seek for more music (the memory buffer could hold several songs at a time, so the HDD would sit idle most of the time).

The talk is a 2230 nvme SSD may or may not be energy efficient enough for Nintendo’s needs, and that the whole point of things like DirectStorage is to bypass the CPU from decompression (hence why Drake has a decompression engine in the silicon).

The SSD still needs to load into system memory anyway before it goes to the GPU/CPU, so say Switch 2 had 16GB of ram, couldn’t the SSD just offload a majority of the game’s assets, thus leaving the SSD at idle for most of the time?

Or am what I’m suggesting just laughable or something, and I’m missing the point?
 
JoshuaJSlone said:
The solution to this wasn't "never add analog sticks to controllers" or "control 3D platformers with pressure sensitive d-pad", though.
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Well if Nintendo wants to add an additional set of shoulder buttons with analog for this use case (maybe on the bottom of the Pro Controller, to be pressed by the middle fingers), that would be fine with me. But I personally don't want to lose the current setup of having access to 4 digital shoulder buttons.

The main use case I always see for analog triggers is racing sims and Mario Sunshine. Personally, I'm not interested in racing sims, and Mario Sunshine is just a one-off game. Though I'm sure there's probably a few more one-off games that use analog triggers well. But the vast majority of the games I play use the shoulder buttons for discrete actions. Like Splatoon (ZR - shoot main, R - sub, ZL - squid). And discrete actions feel best with discrete inputs.
 
I'm wondering, is this flash cart thing actually legit? It seems very vague atm

Also would it even have much of an effect at this point? anyone who wants to pirate switch games probably already does
 
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