Pre-Release Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (2024) — Pre-release Discussion Thread (UPDATE: launch trailer, see threadmarks)

[Octavian]

Given how many YouTubers have essentially positioned TTYD as one of the Greatest Games Ever Made and unassailably the Greatest Paper Mario Game There Ever Was and Will Be, it's absolutely puffed up.

It's a classic, sure, but there will absolutely be people taken in by the game's reputation in online discourse and come away from the remake wondering what the big deal is. Also the idea that TTYD represents "good Paper Mario" compared to what came after is not a universally held opinion.

do you have any examples? that sounds like a strawman. the general consensus I've seen from YouTubers is both 64 and TTYD praise, with people calling for the latter to be remastered since it's never been re-released

 

[Decoyman]

My thing with 64 is that it was the first JRPG I completed. After a while it turned out it was very useful to use Power Bounce and Boost for some boss fights where trouble was present. A good strategy was to boost Mario or/and Goombario until their health was super low and then making them do multiple jumps in one turn was the best strategy at winning. Just use that in the final battle against Bowser and your chances of succeeding are very high if you're skilled enough at timing them.

Bowser kind of exemplifies how difficult it can be to cheese Paper Mario 64 compared to TTYD. Paper Mario 64's Power Bounce caps on certain enemies are a lot harsher than TTYD's (even if you can offset them a little bit with Dodge Master), and on Bowser you might get capped off after the third or fourth bounce. All of Bowser's attacks do damage in the 8-10 range, with some of them having effects of poison, action disabling, or partner disabling. He can also heal up to three times for a third of his health. If you're going for a Power/Mega Rush type run, you need a lot of luck on your side for it to actually work out.

 

[Yavga]

A heated debate thread like every Paper Mario thread should have a betting thread to predict its sales. What kind of figures are you guys expecting?

 

[scamander]

There's a sentiment among some TTYD fans that seem to think people who want more games like TOK just haven't played TTYD, and I'm curious to see where the debate does when more people are able to say they've played both and prefer TOK.

I love TOK and I've played each Paper Mario game when it was originally released, lol.

 

[Comic Obsessed]

A heated debate thread like every Paper Mario thread should have a betting thread to predict its sales. What kind of figures are you guys expecting?

Less than TTYD fans wish/hope.

That might mean many things but overall, I don't think it will sell that much.

 

[Decoyman]

Let's be realistic about the whole "people will be turned off by TTYD being puffed up" rhetoric; Mario games are predominantly bought by casual consumers who don't care about YouTube essayists and Gamecube kiddies. TTYD has an enthusiast's reputation but that enthusiast's audience has never been the penetrative force of the Mario franchise.

If anything is going to prevent TTYD from selling as much as its fans hope it will it's that it's a fucking weirdo-ass Mario game where one portion has a skinwalker steal his appearance and say mean things that would make Papa Miyamoto very sad. People are realistically more likely to buy into something like Mario RPG which looks and feels like the type of Mario game that little Timmy and his grandpa are more familiar with.

 

[Moonchild]

I think for exploration and through the main plot, Flurrie is one of the best partners and definitely the best tank.

When you get used to the “red light, green light” action commands of Gale Force and Lip Lock, they’re so good. Gale Force is fairly reliable at clearing out all weak enemies in one move (there’s a fun niche use where she clears out Cortez’s swords, which makes her the best counter to him). Lip Lock pierces and heals, and she can hit anywhere on the stage with it or Body Slam.

 

[Jersh]

I love TOK and I've played each Paper Mario game when it was originally released, lol.

There's a reason I qualified my statement with "some"!

There's many reasonable TTYD fans when it comes to discussing modern Paper Mario, regardless of their actual opinion on it. There's also some very loud ones that can be less than reasonable.

 

[The Captain]

Person online thinks people online can hurt a game as if people online are everyone lol. Please get out of your bubble. Online people aren’t everyone.

FALSE, EVERYONE IS A HARDCORE NINTENDO FAN, EVEN THE PETS!

Edit: your friends and family are reading everything on fami, even as we speak right now.

 

[Jersh]

Let's be realistic about the whole "people will be turned off by TTYD being puffed up" rhetoric; Mario games are predominantly bought by casual consumers who don't care about YouTube essayists and Gamecube kiddies. TTYD has an enthusiast's reputation but that enthusiast's audience has never been the penetrative force of the Mario franchise.

If anything is going to prevent TTYD from selling as much as its fans hope it will it's that it's a fucking weirdo-ass Mario game where one portion has a skinwalker steal his appearance and say mean things that would make Papa Miyamoto very sad. People are realistically more likely to buy into something like Mario RPG which looks and feels like the type of Mario game that little Timmy and his grandpa are more familiar with.

I took that comment to be referring to how the online discourse around the game will evolve at release, not sales. The enthusiasts are relevant here because that's who we're actually talking about (or at least I am).

The sales will be what they are. We're in weird territory here where this is a remake in the twilight of the Switch's run, but framing it that way is kind of a disservice because Nintendo's still moving software left and right. It's hard to predict how this might compare to even TOK, which released in the summer following the wake of the AC craze in the middle of the pandemic that was the Switch's strongest sales period. It'll probably be lower, yes, but by how much I can't predict.

Super Mario RPG should be somewhat enlightening as to the sales potential of TTYD, but frankly I can't even predict which will be the higher seller there because the more traditional Mario appeal of SMRPG is kinda offset by how established Paper Mario is as an IP at this point.

 

[entut1]

Bowser kind of exemplifies how difficult it can be to cheese Paper Mario 64 compared to TTYD. Paper Mario 64's Power Bounce caps on certain enemies are a lot harsher than TTYD's (even if you can offset them a little bit with Dodge Master), and on Bowser you might get capped off after the third or fourth bounce. All of Bowser's attacks do damage in the 8-10 range, with some of them having effects of poison, action disabling, or partner disabling. He can also heal up to three times for a third of his health. If you're going for a Power/Mega Rush type run, you need a lot of luck on your side for it to actually work out.

I think what I can remember of it is that I used it in a similar way to this (not that long tho)

 

[Decoyman]

I took that comment to be referring to how the online discourse around the game will evolve at release, not sales. The enthusiasts are relevant here because that's who we're actually talking about (or at least I am).

The sales will be what they are. We're in weird territory here where this is a remake in the twilight of the Switch's run, but framing it that way is kind of a disservice because Nintendo's still moving software left and right. It's hard to predict how this might compare to even TOK, which released in the summer following the wake of the AC craze in the middle of the pandemic that was the Switch's strongest sales period. It'll probably be lower, yes, but by how much I can't predict.

Super Mario RPG should be somewhat enlightening as to the sales potential of TTYD, but frankly I can't even predict which will be the higher seller there because the more traditional Mario appeal of SMRPG is kinda offset by how established Paper Mario is as an IP at this point.

Fair, I can't say for sure where online discourse will lead it in terms of newcomers' own opinions on the game. There's a lot of things about the game that stand out positively in retrospect, and others a bit less. Mostly I'm just curious to see how people will react to some of the game's much more tropey elements/pop culture homages. I think a lot of people who grew up with this game were none-the-wiser about most of the game's shallow and deeper cuts because of how formative it was to people; I've seen people today who talk about how they were touched by things like Bobbery's backstory, even though the game itself kind of wants you to treat it all as one big joke.

 

[The Captain]

A heated debate thread like every Paper Mario thread should have a betting thread to predict its sales. What kind of figures are you guys expecting?

There’s a lot of factors to consider:

- Timing of release

- The reveal of next gen console

- The release of next gen console

- Is it going to be cross gen title with it’s own physical release on NG Switch?

- Is the physical switch version going to be BC?

I know people like to assume the NG switch will have BC, but I don’t like to assume. Especially with Nintendo. “It makes sense that it does because-” Thats fine, but sometimes logic isn’t on the menu at Nintendo.

 

[Jersh]

Fair, I can't say for sure where online discourse will lead it in terms of newcomers' own opinions on the game. There's a lot of things about the game that stand out positively in retrospect, and others a bit less. Mostly I'm just curious to see how people will react to some of the game's much more tropey elements/pop culture homages. I think a lot of people who grew up with this game were none-the-wiser about most of the game's shallow and deeper cuts because of how formative it was to people; I've seen people today who talk about how they were touched by things like Bobbery's backstory, even though the game itself kind of wants you to treat it all as one big joke.

In a similar vein, Luigi's whole schtick throughout the game is arguably a self-aware meta-commentary on how formulaic and nonsensical TTYD was, but people largely just want it to be an actual game (myself included, though having a canon version of events would take away from the balance between the three unreliable perspectives we currently have). But on the other hand, that's totally fair, and IntSys themselves kinda poked at the idea by having that one video game obsessed Toad say he wants Paper Luigi.

Honestly, I think the game kinda has a knack for doubling up its satirical bits by playing them just straight enough that they can also hit genuinely if you're inclined to interpret them that way. It's a rather unique strength.

A heated debate thread like every Paper Mario thread should have a betting thread to predict its sales. What kind of figures are you guys expecting?

This is kinda where I'm at:

Theres a lot of factors to consider

- Timing of release

- The reveal of next gen console

- The release of next gen console

- Is it going to be cross gen title with it’s own physical release on NG Switch?

- Is the physical switch version going to be BC?

I know people like to assume the NG switch will have BC, but I don’t like to assume. Especially with Nintendo. “It makes sense that it does because-”, thats fine, but sometimes logic isn’t on the menu at Nintendo.

Except I don't buy into "because Nintendo" reasoning at all, and if anything Nintendo's demonstrated a history of viewing BC as important. I expect that'll be there.

I need to see more of Nintendo's 2024 timeline to be more confident, but as of now - I think a million is the absolute floor, with my money being somewhere above 2M. TOK had poor legs, and I don't expect TTYD to fare better in that department with new hardware either already out or on the horizon, presumably with some very notable software to steal the show. If it hits 3M, I'd consider that a huge success.

 

[Lucifer]

Let's be realistic about the whole "people will be turned off by TTYD being puffed up" rhetoric; Mario games are predominantly bought by casual consumers who don't care about YouTube essayists and Gamecube kiddies. TTYD has an enthusiast's reputation but that enthusiast's audience has never been the penetrative force of the Mario franchise.

If anything is going to prevent TTYD from selling as much as its fans hope it will it's that it's a fucking weirdo-ass Mario game where one portion has a skinwalker steal his appearance and say mean things that would make Papa Miyamoto very sad. People are realistically more likely to buy into something like Mario RPG which looks and feels like the type of Mario game that little Timmy and his grandpa are more familiar with.

The online discourse is going to do absolutely nothing.

Loads of people will discover the game and love it, like many of us loved it back in the day.

 

[The Captain]

Except I don't buy into "because Nintendo" reasoning at all, and if anything Nintendo's demonstrated a history of viewing BC as important. I expect that'll be there.

And I hope such is the case don’t get me wrong. I’ve been building up a huge physical Switch library of games and would love to be able to play them on the next hardware, totally.

If they were to also give some of those games a NG patch to boot? Amazing.

 

[Comic Obsessed]

The online discourse is going to do absolutely nothing.

Loads of people will discover the game and love it, like many of us loved it back in the day.

And a lot of them will be put off by the backtracking (and comparing it to this year's SMRPG).

 

[Phendrift]

As much as I've pushed 64 as a better game than its given credit for, TTYD is very much the fan favorite. I doubt that'll change with the remake (though I am curious to see if you enjoy that as much as you remember when it comes out).

The game's release is going to be something to watch. Given how much online people have puffed up TTYD over the years, that could both help and potentially hurt the game when people are able to get their hands on it.

It’ll be interesting to see for sure.

To be honest, I could see a lot of newcomers excited to go in after the reception and fan fervor, and getting hard stopped at Boggly Woods lol.

That’s how it went for my first playthrough, I lacked the motivation to go back for months when I was in the Tree.

 

[Hocot8]

A heated debate thread like every Paper Mario thread should have a betting thread to predict its sales. What kind of figures are you guys expecting?

honestly, depends on how they market it but I feel like it'll be something around 3M.

 

[Phendrift]

Fair enough, I can't disagree with those points. But even though the story is a more traditional Mario one, it expands on and nails that standard Mario story so well and it's so damn charming that I really don't mind in this case. Plus it gave us Paper Bowser!

Would be interested to get your thoughts as you progress further. Even though I admittedly have a huge amount of nostalgia for it, I do think it holds up incredibly well for its age.

Yeah, I’m excited to keep playing for sure! I’ll also have to see how TTYD holds up as well, as lots of these comparisons are being made based on what I remember from TTYD over a decade ago. If anything’s gonna bring it down, it’s probably gonna be those small pacing moments and the nitty-gritty of the level design that I forgot, because as more time passed it was the game’s biggest highs stuck with me.

After finishing Paper Mario 64 again my most scorching takeaway -- which I would probably need to replay TTYD to substantiate more because it's purely going off of memory from my last playthrough quite a few years ago -- was that I think Paper Mario 64's combat is arguably better designed than TTYD's despite having less hooks to it.

The biggest differentiator between both games is how Paper Mario 64's badge economy and offering is drastically different. The first game puts a cap on badges at 30 BP (TTYD caps it at 99), meaning it is extremely difficult to break the game and turns fairly crucial badges like Power Plus, Defense Plus, and Flower Saver into a massive investment that will have to come at the cost of some valuable skills that makes the most of it all. There's also far less in terms of unique skills and context sensitive badges. Most of all, the game has no badges that serve to buff Partners, which will be important in a bit.

All of that definitely sounds less "fun", you get to do less goofy builds, but it also means you have to consider so much when picking and choosing what to prioritize. There was a point after I bought the All or Nothing badge when I stopped for about 5 minutes to consider whether investing BP into it was more ideal than culling a skill to place the buff into another Power Plus instead. The resource loop of needing FP both for defense and offense, needing BP to offset FP cost but also needing BP to buff up damage/defense, is genuinely compelling. It makes combat encounters far more meaningful because there's a limit to how much you can bulk up, making enemies far more threatening and battles far more strategic. What surprised me in particular was how I actually got a Game Over in a random encounter, and some late game bosses are pretty notable difficulty spikes, including optional ones like Kent C. Koopa.

The partners meanwhile, despite being less individualized from the lack of partner badges and their own health, are probably the most understated element in terms of design. There's no hook to circumvent shortcomings of 64's gang through supplemental systems. Goombario is the strongest single target attacker but requires setup (and his Multibonk cap is bugged), Kooper has a solid debuff and an AOE that gets heavy usage during the late game, but he has no air coverage which makes him very suboptimal during mid game. Bombette is the strongest multi-target attacker in the early game but becomes progressively outclassed by Ultra Ranks from Chapter 5 onward and mainly sees use as a counterpick option. Parakarry has omnipresent coverage and power but is a monumental FP sink. Bow has the strongest resource-free single target damage and a full protective move, but has zero defensive penetration. Watt has really strong buffs/debuffs and defensive piercing but has no multitarget attacks. Sushie is like Parakarry but with more difficult execution, elemental advantages, and a buff move. Lakilester is comparatively weak as a late game party member but is an omnipresent low-risk/low-resource attacker with a nice defensive move. Despite having the most party members of any of the games, the game still encourages cycling through most of them as often as it can manage which adds another layer of strategy to everything. There's invariably a few weaker ones like Bow and Lakilester, but as previously said you're micromanaging resources a lot more in this game so using low-resource attacks when you can is often important.

By contrast, the thing I find about TTYD's motley crew is that some of them feel monumentally overcentralized because of badge buffing and are almost too individually strong in their own right; a few of them excel at too many things and have too many upsides for their archetype. Yoshi inherits Bow's low base defense penetration, but has Gulp as a two target defensive piercing attack. Upgrading Yoshi and loading up on badges turns him into a hydrogen bomb of a damage dealer, especially if you soften up enemies' defense or boost his power via moves like Power Lift. Vivian not only has Lakilester's omnipresent targeting but inflicts status effects and has an omnipresent multi-target defense piercing move, which is just insane. Finally Goombella inherits Goombario's single target dominance (without the bugged cap) and for good measure is also able to relinquish her turn to Mario, who is just always sitting on a smorgasbord of fuckery. All three of these practically demolish the need to think more strategically about which other partners to use.

I think TTYD has a lot of remarkable systems under the hood that you can stretch to its limits, and it's fun to do so, but I always felt this was less on account of clever application as opposed to raw brute forcing. In spite of all the little cool additions like super guards and the audience related mechanics (which as an aside further made combat pretty lopsided because building Star Power resources in PM64 was so much more difficult), it predominantly suffices as a fun exercise in how much time you can spend in order to watch numbers go haywire. There's a novelty in all of that, but after my first Danger Mario run I ultimately came away with this "emperor has no clothes" feeling about the game's combat as a whole, and this sense that vigilance decrement creeps up a bit too easily.

I agree with just about all of this.

TTYD's badge and partner systems can feel like having a hand-picked legacy Magic the Gathering deck in a game where the devs had to balance around you only figuring out how to build one of a few modern-tier decks they had in mind, for lack of a more common analogy. The sheer freedom you have in bending the rules to your benefit is insane - but the game is designed to also be enjoyed by seven-year-olds that aren't going to put together that always having Mario in danger can be a good thing, or even something as simple as the fact that BP outclasses HP as a level up option just about all of the time, and as a result the freedom largely results in seeing just how trivial you can make the game. It works for a lot of people, but at a certain point seeing how big the numbers get just isn't interesting to me anymore.

Of course, the solution to this is to just not make such a broken build, and I generally don't, but I also have a slightly harder time enjoying it when I know I'm handicapping myself. But even still, the changes to partner HP, SP regen, and superguarding are huge things that are easily abused.

Still, it's important to recognize that this is taste. A lot of people like TTYD's combat changes for the exact same reasons they aren't really for me. And even I can't deny consistently nailing superguards is fun, even if it takes away from the strategy.

Don’t have much else to add, but these are both great analyses of the battle system and why 64’s is arguably better “balanced.”

I think for me, like I said is, TTYD’s is just more fun and interactive. Perhaps when I’ve replayed both I’ll go in with a more discerning eye, but I don’t think it affected me much when I was younger due to the games’ difficulty and my playstyle it wasn’t really noticeable. I never was amazing at superguards so they didn’t break the game for me, but instead felt amazing when actually nailing one. Also never delved deep into maximizing badge builds either.

 

[ziggyrivers]

A heated debate thread like every Paper Mario thread should have a betting thread to predict its sales. What kind of figures are you guys expecting?

A bit more than whatever SMRPG does

 

[Lucifer]

And a lot of them will be put off by the backtracking (and comparing it to this year's SMRPG).

If Paper Mario can survive the plethora of reasons to be put off by in the modern games, it will survive backtracking. It'll be fine.

 

[BassForever]

Partner tier list in TTYD is

Top: Goombella and Yoshi
Solid: Koops and Flurrie
Usable: Vivian and Bombery
Meme bad: Mowz

The battle for top partner really comes down to your play style. Goombella is best if you want to buff Mario or hit one thing really hard, Yoshi is more versatile for any combat encounter.

Edit: The fact @Decoyman put Bow as a weak partner in PM64 basically puts their gameplay analysis into doubt for me. Bow is by far the most OP partner in that game and it's not even close. Bow has the strongest no fp attack and has outta sight which is broken. It makes Mario immortal for a turn and lets you beat super bosses at a way lower level then you're supposed to.

 

[Jersh]

Yeah, I’m excited to keep playing for sure! I’ll also have to see how TTYD holds up as well, as lots of these comparisons are being made based on what I remember from TTYD over a decade ago. If anything’s gonna bring it down, it’s probably gonna be those small pacing moments and the nitty-gritty of the level design that I forgot, because as more time passed it was the game’s biggest highs stuck with me.


Don’t have much else to add, but these are both great analyses of the battle system and why 64’s is arguably better “balanced.”

I think for me, like I said is, TTYD’s is just more fun and interactive. Perhaps when I’ve replayed both I’ll go in with a more discerning eye, but I don’t think it affected me much when I was younger due to the games’ difficulty and my playstyle it wasn’t really noticeable. I never was amazing at superguards so they didn’t break the game for me, but instead felt amazing when actually nailing one. Also never delved deep into maximizing badge builds either.

At this point I should be clear: some of my earliest gaming memories are of Paper Mario 64, and I was super hyped to receive TTYD for my 6th birthday. For a long time, my opinions were in line with the general internet consensus; the OG was great, but TTYD was just bigger, better, and more fun.

It was only many years after - high school or maybe even later - that my opinion started to shift, as they're both games I take out and play every now and then. Your description of how you remember playing TTYD is also how I remember playing it. I think a lot of my criticisms are ones that apply much more to replays than an initial playthrough, and for a lot of people the latter is all that matters.

I also generally agree that interactivity is a large part of what makes Mario RPGs stand out, and the more the better. TTYD's increased interaction with the player is fun, even if it can trivialize the more strategic element if the player happens to get pretty technically skilled. (FWIW, PM64 does get trickier with enemy attack patterns for guarding as it goes on, and can get pretty rapid-fire with multi-hit moves in comparison to TTYD.)

 

[doodlewhizz]

A heated debate thread like every Paper Mario thread should have a betting thread to predict its sales. What kind of figures are you guys expecting?

I really can't work it out. Honestly it could be anything from 1m to 3m+

Metroid Prime's remaster being significantly below the original release (one of the bestselling GC games) has me leaning toward the low end. Also just because something has Mario on the label, it doesn't mean it'll do massive numbers.

But then RPGs are slightly more market friendly in 2023 than they were 10-20 years ago, and it looks like a quality product. And while not everything with Mario on it sells huge, I think there could be a bit of a bump from this year's plethora of moustachioed man media.

And then of course there's the unknowns - what will release around the same time, when will the Switch 2 release, how will this be marketed.

I don't think anyone can make a good estimate right now it's all guess work, maybe with some internal bias thrown in there.

 

[Decoyman]

The online discourse is going to do absolutely nothing.

Loads of people will discover the game and love it, like many of us loved it back in the day.

You and I agree on the first point, I'm mainly talking about what factors are liable to affect its actual sales.

 

[Superstarxalien]

Fair, I can't say for sure where online discourse will lead it in terms of newcomers' own opinions on the game. There's a lot of things about the game that stand out positively in retrospect, and others a bit less. Mostly I'm just curious to see how people will react to some of the game's much more tropey elements/pop culture homages. I think a lot of people who grew up with this game were none-the-wiser about most of the game's shallow and deeper cuts because of how formative it was to people; I've seen people today who talk about how they were touched by things like Bobbery's backstory, even though the game itself kind of wants you to treat it all as one big joke.

what is the joke in bobbery's backstory? that he looks like a bob-omb?

 

[Decoyman]

what is the joke in bobbery's backstory? that he looks like a bob-omb?

I can't say for certain they intended this to be seen as a joke but that's the impression I get from the triple combo of its abruptness, the script itself, and the punchline.

Spoiler

Within five minutes of meeting Bobbery and getting rebuffed, the solution to getting him out of his funk is to talk to a bartender who exposits a tragic lost love tale as if it's supposed to mean something to the audience who had literally only just met him. The game even tries to pre-empt this by what feels like a fairly standard Paper Mario-esque framing of an insincere question prompt.

You get the backstory, you get the convenient letter solution of his wife telling him to keep sailing, and things are all rosy. Later in the game you stumble upon him seemingly at brink of death and do a shitty fetch quest to honor his last wish. The heroes send him off thinking this was his last rodeo and that he would be rejoining his wife.

But no actually, he was just taking a nap. The game had us play one of its many protracted sequences in service of a joke that required the context of a personal tragedy.

It all just feels tropey and consciously parodic. It's basically the exact type of thing people make fun of in movies like The Amazing Spider-Man 2 and its ending for playing straight. Personally nowadays I just see it as really funny, though I guess some people did feel it heart wrenching and that's fair. I dunno, as a sensitive kid at the time who couldn't even rewatch The Lion King because Mufasa's death upset them so much, the whole Bobbery plotline was just kind of weird to experience and I cared more about when I could get him to join my team. That's not to say TTYD didn't have genuine moments of tragedy but I never felt this was supposed to be seen as one of them.

 

[Leo]

There will also totally be people who've only played TOK who hear this is the best one just to play it and wind up confused, which I think will be kinda funny. There's a sentiment among some TTYD fans that seem to think people who want more games like TOK just haven't played TTYD, and I'm curious to see where the debate does when more people are able to say they've played both and prefer TOK.

Honestly think this will be me in the future lol

I played PM64 for the first time last year on NSO, and so far it's the only one I've played. I liked it, but didn't love it. The humor was great and it was incredibly charming, but I thought the RPG mechanics were too streamlined and felt restrictive, you had very limited options for customizing and there was no sense of progression since the level caps were incredibly tight and the stats were oversimplified. It always felt like you were exactly as strong as the game wanted you to be at any point. For me the appeal of an RPG is about flexibility, customizing my party, and feeling powerful as a reward for exploring/grinding, and PM64, in its attempt to be accessible for all audiences and not just RPG nerds, didn't have much of any of that.

So I think it would have worked better if it focused less on the RPG mechanics and was more of a pure adventure game, which seems to be exactly what TOK is. I already bought TOK, I think I might play it soon to see for myself which style I prefer.

 

[AstroOhHey]

Less than TTYD fans wish/hope.

That might mean many things but overall, I don't think it will sell that much.

Unless it bombs like Color Splash (and that always had an upwards battle being a Wii U exclusive) with its sales I don't think it really matters either way? Like I hope it sells well I guess but I also don't really think about 'Oh I hope this game sells well/bombs' when looking forward to/dreading game releases.

The series' sales are all over the place and Super despite being the absolute weirdest game of the bunch is still the highest selling... It also did the opposite of influencing where the games went afterwards which again, to me indicates sales don't mean much as long as they're not tanking so hard Nintendo just kills the IP. Or if it reviews very poorly, which I could only see if it makes some bizarre changes, modern reviewers really don't gel with it or everyone pulls a classic Game Informer and docks points for being a 'kids game' lmao.

 

[Decoyman]

Honestly think this will be me in the future lol

I played PM64 for the first time last year on NSO, and so far it's the only one I've played. I liked it, but didn't love it. The humor was great and it was incredibly charming, but I thought the RPG mechanics were too streamlined and felt restrictive, you had very limited options for customizing and there was no sense of progression since the level caps were incredibly tight and the stats were oversimplified. It always felt like you were exactly as strong as the game wanted you to be at any point. For me the appeal of an RPG is about flexibility, customizing my party, and feeling powerful as a reward for exploring/grinding, and PM64, in its attempt to be accessible for all audiences and not just RPG nerds, didn't have much of any of that.

So I think it would have worked better if it focused less on the RPG mechanics and was more of a pure adventure game, which seems to be exactly what TOK is. I already bought TOK, I think I might play it soon to see for myself which style I prefer.

I have a lot of criticism about TTYD's combat as one of my earlier text walls would indicate, but if customizing was your big beef with PM64 then TTYD might be a little looser and enjoyable for your tastes. It's still less number crunching than your average RPG, primarily because leveling never affects defense and damage, but being able to buff partners via items/moves/badges and saddling them with their own health pools, if nothing else, does encourage more customizing, and you're less limited by the 30 BP cap.

I think Paper Mario 64 is way better at balancing itself around its limits, but if you just want more options at the expense of balancing then TTYD is a bit better about it; even if makes BP a dominant choice that eschews other stat gains.

 

[Jersh]

Honestly think this will be me in the future lol

I played PM64 for the first time last year on NSO, and so far it's the only one I've played. I liked it, but didn't love it. The humor was great and it was incredibly charming, but I thought the RPG mechanics were too streamlined and felt restrictive, you had very limited options for customizing and there was no sense of progression since the level caps were incredibly tight and the stats were oversimplified. It always felt like you were exactly as strong as the game wanted you to be at any point. For me the appeal of an RPG is about flexibility, customizing my party, and feeling powerful as a reward for exploring/grinding, and PM64, in its attempt to be accessible for all audiences and not just RPG nerds, didn't have much of any of that.

So I think it would have worked better if it focused less on the RPG mechanics and was more of a pure adventure game, which seems to be exactly what TOK is. I already bought TOK, I think I might play it soon to see for myself which style I prefer.

Seconding @Decoyman here, though a little more strongly; I think you'll definitely find TTYD better than 64, as just about every complaint you have is pretty subdued. How subdued depends on whether you find the right things and how creative you get (the short of it is that BP and badges are the key to customizing and feeling strong). Stat caps are increased from 50/50/33 to 200/200/99 (far more than you'll ever need for anything lol), and while the level cap isn't big enough to max those, the jump in level cap from 27 to 99 is absurd; a normal player might not even hit level 30.

The one caveat I'll note with partner badges is that they still use Mario's BP, and the effects are global for all partners. Still, you can make builds targeting one specific partner if you want.

It's still very much in the vein of the first game, so it might not be for you. But this is as good as RPG Paper Mario theoretically gets for you without being something radically different.

 

[Octavian]

I really can't work it out. Honestly it could be anything from 1m to 3m+

Metroid Prime's remaster being significantly below the original release (one of the bestselling GC games) has me leaning toward the low end. Also just because something has Mario on the label, it doesn't mean it'll do massive numbers.

But then RPGs are slightly more market friendly in 2023 than they were 10-20 years ago, and it looks like a quality product. And while not everything with Mario on it sells huge, I think there could be a bit of a bump from this year's plethora of moustachioed man media.

And then of course there's the unknowns - what will release around the same time, when will the Switch 2 release, how will this be marketed.

I don't think anyone can make a good estimate right now it's all guess work, maybe with some internal bias thrown in there.

nintendo did a terrible job marketing the prime 1 remake frankly

 

[EtherPenguin]

that one video game obsessed Toad

wonder if he'll stay be playing FE7 or if he's moved onto Engage

 

[entut1]

I never noticed this heh, would explain why he's not here in the remake but still is visible in other places of the game

 

[Pokemaniac]

My issue is that Sticker Star has been such a lightning rod point of overzealous derision and hatred for so long that I don't strictly trust comparisons made between it and other games without really thoughtful justification.

The problem with this position is that you're basically getting mad at people for not analyzing TOK as if it exists in a vacuum. Sticker Star very heavily informs the context of TOK, both in how the games differ and how they're similar, so it's only natural the comparison is going to come up.

 

[JazzyFuture]

And a lot of them will be put off by the backtracking (and comparing it to this year's SMRPG).

Super Paper Mario and Sticker Star sold more than TTYD did, and had worse backtracking. It'll be fine.
People just bring up backtracking in TTYD simply because it's put on a pedestal and it's the biggest flaw it has, where the other games have at least a couple of things you'd bring up first, and I say that as someone who loves Super.

And hey, given that it's the one thing people complain about with TTYD that isn't "people like this game and get annoying about it", I wouldn't be shocked if they added stuff to make it better, like a better fast travel system in Rogueport Sewers.

 

[Jersh]

wonder if he'll stay be playing FE7 or if he's moved onto Engage

Fun fact: in the Japanese version, he's hooked on Famicom instead of GBA and was playing Super Mario Bros.

 

[EtherPenguin]

Fun fact: in the Japanese version, he's hooked on Famicom instead of GBA and was playing Super Mario Bros.

You just shattered my world. Maybe he'll be playing Wonder then

 

[Sunshinemario]

There’s a lot of factors to consider:

- Timing of release

- The reveal of next gen console

- The release of next gen console

- Is it going to be cross gen title with it’s own physical release on NG Switch?

- Is the physical switch version going to be BC?

I know people like to assume the NG switch will have BC, but I don’t like to assume. Especially with Nintendo. “It makes sense that it does because-” Thats fine, but sometimes logic isn’t on the menu at Nintendo.

I feel pretty confident the Switch 2 will have BC. But yeah, you're right. I'm still going to assume it will happen because I don't see a reason why it wouldn't. However, if I am wrong, I am sure i'll eventually get over it, FAR from the first time I completely expected Nintendo to do one thing and they do the opposite

 

[Djehuty]

I hope the next paper Mario is a rpg looter shooter rougelitr horror simulation game,

 

[Octavian]

I hope the next paper Mario is a rpg looter shooter rougelitr horror simulation game,

i hope it has always online DRM and is a deckbuilder too

 

[Brofield]

i hope it has always online DRM and is a deckbuilder too

Not to mention pay2win MTX to buy different badges

 

[Djehuty]

i hope it has always online DRM and is a deckbuilder too

T needs a fishing minivan, a farming dlc. And litteraly gwent, not with any paper Mario themeing, just gwent ripped form the Witcher. Now this will sell.

 

[Dark Cloud]

I hope the next paper Mario is a rpg looter shooter rougelitr horror simulation game,

I hope the same for the next 3D Mario and 3D Zelda.

 

[Jersh]

You just shattered my world. Maybe he'll be playing Wonder then

Perhaps, but OTOH Super Mario Bros. is just as relevant in 2024 as it was in 2004. It wasn't the current reference that Fire Emblem was for the western audience.

I think the most curious text is the reference to the next Paper Mario. That has the most reason to change.

 

[Hailinel]

Perhaps, but OTOH Super Mario Bros. is just as relevant in 2024 as it was in 2004. It wasn't the current reference that Fire Emblem was for the western audience.

I think the most curious text is the reference to the next Paper Mario. That has the most reason to change.

The most straight-forward idea would be to just make the English text make the same meta joke about a Mario character playing Super Mario Bros. than changing it to market [insert franchise here].

 

[EtherPenguin]

Perhaps, but OTOH Super Mario Bros. is just as relevant in 2024 as it was in 2004. It wasn't the current reference that Fire Emblem was for the western audience.

I think the most curious text is the reference to the next Paper Mario. That has the most reason to change.

He's gonna leak the Switch 2!

 

[Tinarg]

The most straight-forward idea would be to just make the English text make the same meta joke about a Mario character playing Super Mario Bros. than changing it to market [insert franchise here].

TEC's eye is red again and the logo is fashioned more like the JP version, so maybe they'll reconcile other benign versions differences as well.

I wonder if the content that was censored internationally will now also be censored in the JP version, like the toad murder scene or bobbery's wine?

 

[SiG]

TEC's eye is red again and the logo is fashioned more like the JP version, so maybe they'll reconcile other benign versions differences as well.

I wonder if the content that was censored internationally will now also be censored in the JP version, like the toad murder scene or bobbery's wine?

Considering that one character from Super Mario RPG who holds a martini originally was actually corrected to hold a margarita, I think the alcohol isokay.

Just wondering if the Boo in the casino will still be wearing bunny ears.