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arbysSo what are y’all guys thinking? $349? $399? $449?
arbysSo what are y’all guys thinking? $349? $399? $449?
oh my god is that derachiIf that's considered shitty, I don't know what Bomb Rush Cyberfunk icon is:
449.99So what are y’all guys thinking? $349? $399? $449?
I don't think Nintendo ever made chips in house tbh...Wii U was a powerpc chipTo be honest, Nintendo isn't even really making the chips anymore.
Nvidia is. These are basically now Nvidia platforms from a tech perspective.
The Tegra X1 has nothing from Nintendo in it basically, it's all Nvidia.
I think the days of Nintendo creating bespoke chip designs and lording over every aspect of a chip and having weird design fetishes prioritized are basically over. Nvidia doesn't work that way, they make a base chip design (Orin) and sure they will give Nintendo some options, but I don't think those options are as robust as people think.
Because Nintendo getting very detailed and specific would likely drive the cost of the chip up (Nvidia R&D is probably not cheap), I think more or less their instruction to Nvidia was to give them something that is a full generation beyond the Tegra X1 + backwards compatible + fits into XYZ power/cost profile, Nvidia takes that and basically creates from their Orin self driving chip line a chip that falls in line with all that.
Nintendo is just by luck or happenstance I think tied to the best graphics card maker and AI tech leader in the world, they can't leave Nvidia because of backwards compatibility issues and really there's not much incentive to want to do so anyway so long as Nvidia is willing to give them a decent price.
The Wii U, being a clunky, expensive mess of a hardware platform I think effectively neutered Nintendo's hardware R&D division and probably Nvidia's engineers are simply on a different level from Nintendo. They don't need notes from Nintendo, all the top video games in the world run on Nvidia GPUs anyway (aside from the odd Sony Playstation exclusive), random engineer from Nintendo is not really going to be lecturing Nvidia's design staff on what they need for gaming. The reality is if Nvidia architecture/tech/philosophy can run the most demanding, high end games at the best performance in the world, then they can run your little Mario game just fine there Mr. Nintendo R&D employee, lol.
any other wacky, made up stuff you got to share to the class?
$399 seems reasonable considering the current price of the OLED.
Nintendo never designed CPUs, GPUs, or SoCs before the Switch either. They always got with a chipmaker (AMD, IBM, Sharp), gave them requirements and targets, and had it made to meet those -- exactly the way any client of those chipmakers would.To be honest, Nintendo isn't even really making the chips anymore.
Nvidia is. These are basically now Nvidia platforms from a tech perspective.
The Tegra X1 has nothing from Nintendo in it basically, it's all Nvidia.
I think the days of Nintendo creating bespoke chip designs and lording over every aspect of a chip and having weird design fetishes prioritized are basically over. Nvidia doesn't work that way, they make a base chip design (Orin) and sure they will give Nintendo some options, but I don't think those options are as robust as people think.
Because Nintendo getting very detailed and specific would likely drive the cost of the chip up (Nvidia R&D is probably not cheap), I think more or less their instruction to Nvidia was to give them something that is a full generation beyond the Tegra X1 + backwards compatible + fits into XYZ power/cost profile, Nvidia takes that and basically creates from their Orin self driving chip line a chip that falls in line with all that.
Nintendo is just by luck or happenstance I think tied to the best graphics card maker and AI tech leader in the world, they can't leave Nvidia because of backwards compatibility issues and really there's not much incentive to want to do so anyway so long as Nvidia is willing to give them a decent price.
The Wii U, being a clunky, expensive mess of a hardware platform I think effectively neutered Nintendo's hardware R&D division and probably Nvidia's engineers are simply on a different level from Nintendo. They don't need notes from Nintendo, all the top video games in the world run on Nvidia GPUs anyway (aside from the odd Sony Playstation exclusive), random engineer from Nintendo is not really going to be lecturing Nvidia's design staff on what they need for gaming. The reality is if Nvidia architecture/tech/philosophy can run the most demanding, high end games at the best performance in the world, then they can run your little Mario game just fine there Mr. Nintendo R&D employee, lol.
I’m thinking $399. $449 could be possible though.So what are y’all guys thinking? $349? $399? $449?
You know that all Nintendo consoles since like the start they don't really design CPUs and GPUs, right?To be honest, Nintendo isn't even really making the chips anymore.
Nvidia is. These are basically now Nvidia platforms from a tech perspective.
The Tegra X1 has nothing from Nintendo in it basically, it's all Nvidia.
I think the days of Nintendo creating bespoke chip designs and lording over every aspect of a chip and having weird design fetishes prioritized are basically over. Nvidia doesn't work that way, they make a base chip design (Orin) and sure they will give Nintendo some options, but I don't think those options are as robust as people think.
Because Nintendo getting very detailed and specific would likely drive the cost of the chip up (Nvidia R&D is probably not cheap), I think more or less their instruction to Nvidia was to give them something that is a full generation beyond the Tegra X1 + backwards compatible + fits into XYZ power/cost profile, Nvidia takes that and basically creates from their Orin self driving chip line a chip that falls in line with all that.
Nintendo is just by luck or happenstance I think tied to the best graphics card maker and AI tech leader in the world, they can't leave Nvidia because of backwards compatibility issues and really there's not much incentive to want to do so anyway so long as Nvidia is willing to give them a decent price.
The Wii U, being a clunky, expensive mess of a hardware platform I think effectively neutered Nintendo's hardware R&D division and probably Nvidia's engineers are simply on a different level from Nintendo. They don't need notes from Nintendo, all the top video games in the world run on Nvidia GPUs anyway (aside from the odd Sony Playstation exclusive), random engineer from Nintendo is not really going to be lecturing Nvidia's design staff on what they need for gaming. The reality is if Nvidia architecture/tech/philosophy can run the most demanding, high end games at the best performance in the world, then they can run your little Mario game just fine there Mr. Nintendo R&D employee, lol.
Nintendo never designed CPUs, GPUs, or SoCs before the Switch either. They always got with a chipmaker (AMD, IBM, Sharp), gave them requirements and targets, and had it made to meet those -- exactly the way any client of those chipmakers would.
The only difference in the Switch is that TX1 was a general-purpose instead of custom-built SoC. That was something Nintendo had been researching for some time, even prototyping the 3DS with early an Tegra chip in it. But beyond that, the actual hardware R&D process didn't change for them. The TX1 SoC is only one part of the Odin motherboard that actually powers the Switch, and Nintendo was 100% involved with the design and development of Odin.
Also, before they had even released the TX1 Switch, they had Nvidia working on TX1+, designed specifically for them. And now they've been working with Nvidia on T239, designed specifically for them, featuring hardware blocks that the parent T234/Orin line doesn't even have, like the FDE -- file decompression engine -- made for Nintendo's use case.
Nintendo never had as custom of a chip as you claimed, ever.Does Nvidia make highly bespoke Tegra chips for any vendor period? Like it seems like you get some variance on a few things, but if you look at all the consumer products that use the Tegra X1 or Parker X2 ... there's not much variance. It is basically entirely an Nvidia design.
And frankly ... y'know that's not a bad thing. It's probably a good thing. Nintendo has made bizarre hardware choices in the past culminating with the train wreck Wii U hardware that was embarrassingly underpowered yet still very expensive to mass produce.
It's not the 90s anymore, GPU design, especially on Nvidia's end is not cheap. AMD probably allows for more variance and more control/input from Sony/MS because they have no choice. They can't afford to lose those contracts because they're so far behind Nvidia in GPU marketshare.
Better camp Amazon/BB/local equivalent then because this thing will very likely super hard to get in the beginning, even without another pandemic.I really hope this doesn’t end up being difficult to get hold of, I need it day one!
That's just Nintendo begging for the chip to be as cheap as possible. Technically custom, but how to do it is essentially down to SGI.But the R&D was still deeply involved in all design aspects especially post NES.
I remember for example the SGI engineer who worked with Nintendo on the N64 said the Nintendo guys from Japan were up his ass over every single transistor on the chip, they would make him count every single one and forced the transistor count down to a minimum and that was also a big part of the reason why the N64 had that terrible 4kb texture cache limit.
I think those days are over. Nvidia makes the chip and sure they'll take out the self-driving car bits, but no one at Nintendo is going to order them around and make some wonky very customized design that is very far removed from other industry standards because some designer at Nintendo Kyoto has a weird design fetish.
$400 feels like the sweet spot to me. More expensive than Series S, same price as the cheapest Steam Deck and the digital PS5, but still cheaper than Series X or disk drive PS5.
I could see them going a little higher though, if only to avoid the "corrective price adjustments" that both Sony and Microsoft have done post-launch.
so far, yes. But the cross-gen era won't always be with us. At some point devs are going to be using 8c/16t as a CPU baseline.
From Necro on Twitter
Per my sources now: The version of DLSS shown behind closed doors by the “Nintendo Switch 2” tech demo was 3.1 and not 3.5 as reported or pointed out by Eurogamer
Ray-Tracing is indeed possible and the RAM I was told was 12 GB for consumer
$449USD, meaning $619CAD, meaning $699.97 Canadian dollary-doos after taxes for a new consoleSo what are y’all guys thinking? $349? $399? $449?
That's a pretty beefy
I mean, games like Starfield and Baldur's Gate 3 are already CPU-bound on the current gen consoles, so it's not some theoretical future scenario that the Switch CPU might be a bottleneck at half the threads and half the frequency. Steam Deck and the ROG Ally are already gagging.Which the 8 core A78c cpu will certainly be capabale enough to tackle. When this “some point” happens lol.
I imagine most big 3rd party support will still try and develop and release for the 140 million current models for years anyways.
I question if the Matrix demo can even run on such a systemDouble digits is a massive relief, I was too stressed thinking it might have been kneecapped at 8GB
I think with inflation, currency and everything it‘s almost impossible to get it below $399.99. Maybe they will try to sell it at a better price for the US because of it being their biggest market but if they want to make again a profit of the hardware it will be hard for them to find the right price.I'm gonna go with $349.99.
We'll also see a price drop at some point bringing the OLED down to $299.99, and the Nintendo Switch down to $179.99.
"Nintendo asked their vendor to make it cheaper or more power efficient" is not being "deeply involved in the design." And I guarantee you they've had the same discussion with Nvidia about the one, soon to be two, custom chips Nvidia has delivered them.But the R&D was still deeply involved in all design aspects especially post NES.
I remember for example one of the lead SGI engineers who worked with Nintendo on the N64 said the Nintendo guys from Japan were up his ass over every single transistor on the chip, they would make him count every single one and forced the transistor count down to a minimum and that was also a big part of the reason why the N64 had that terrible 4kb texture cache limit.
I think those days are over. Nvidia makes the chip and sure they'll take out the self-driving car bits, but no one at Nintendo is going to order them around and make some wonky very customized design that is very far removed from other industry standards because some designer at Nintendo Kyoto has a weird design fetish.
Frankly y'all should be happy if that's the case. Nintendo getting in there would only muck things up, they're not a billion dollar graphics design company for a reason. Let the big boys at Nvidia handle that stuff, Nintendo has generally gotten themselves into nothing but trouble when they've made too many "Nintendo-Only" style hardware decisions. Do what you do best, which is make the games, let Nvidia more or less worry about the hardware. They're doing stuff with DLSS and AI that frankly is probably way over Nintendo's head.
That's just Nintendo begging for the chip to be as cheap as possible. Technically custom, but how to do it is essentially down to SGI.
If I could pay for a console for $100 a year over seven years, sure, but that upfront cost is relevant enough having to plan to save around bills, vacations, investments, and unexpected emergencies.Price of a console is a topic that I have always considered irrelevant. In the end, 100 dollars more or less, spread over the 6-7 years of life of the console, means 15 dollars a year... Less than a pizza and beer.
Didn't there used to be a YouTube channel (or subsidiary of DF) that would try to run PC games on the bare minimum required hardware? I'm surprised no one would have tried to with the UE5 demo just to see what it could look like at lowest graphical settings and still be functional at 30 or 60fps.I question if the Matrix demo can even run on such a system
Of course Nintendo can make requests. T239 is using a CPU core layout not seen in any other Tegra product. Are they doing the chip layout? No. Are they defining the hardware target requirements and power envelope? Absolutely.I don't think that's how it works with Nvidia today though. You can't say "change the number of Tensor cores, or give us a special number of CUDA cores here there, change this CPU core, we love our embedded RAM, so you have to put embedded RAM on this thing," etc. etc.
I don't think today they have that level of control. Sure they can request it, but it will come at a cost and likely impact a lot of things like the fabrication side of things, so I think Nintendo just doesn't bother anymore with that. Why make weird custom requests and then end up paying a ton of extra money.
The chip inside the Switch 2 I would bet is going to be like 95% an Nvidia design with maybe some input from Nintendo, but probably not nearly as much as people think.
Nvidia knows what they're doing, just get the heck outta their way and let them work.
Of course Nintendo can make requests. T239 is using a CPU core layout not seen in any other Tegra product. Are they doing the chip layout? No. Are they defining the hardware target requirements and power envelope? Absolutely.
At best I'd expected binned T239s to be used for a Shield-class product, but it's pretty clear from the leaks that unlike the TX1, this SOC was designed for Nintendo.I doubt T239 is exclusive to Nintendo. Will likely be used in other products, just like Tegra X1 is.
Frankly the only hardware consumer level vendor that I think Nvidia could probably learn a thing or two from is Apple and their M1/M2 line of chips and likely there mostly just for the power consumption side.
I'm gonna go with $349.99.
We'll also see a price drop at some point bringing the OLED down to $299.99, and the Nintendo Switch down to $179.99.
This seems reasonable, I would also posit that binned t239s could be used in a future Drake Lite.At best I'd expected binned T239s to be used for a Shield-class product, but it's pretty clear from the leaks that unlike the TX1, this SOC was designed for Nintendo.
Man, this new super powerful ps5 in your pocket Switch console launching at the exact same price as the 10 year old tech OLED Switch that someone just bought for that price yesterday is wild lol.
Doubt that will happen.
Ps5 launched $200 more than what the ps4 slim was selling for in 2020
if you price a console at a prohibited price no one will buy your console, like Sony priced PS3 at $600 and they suffered because of thatPrice of a console is a topic that I have always considered irrelevant. In the end, 100 dollars more or less, spread over the 6-7 years of life of the console, means 15 dollars a year... Less than a pizza and beer.
PS4 had a price drop, though. Switch still hasn't. $399 is $100 more than the Switch launched at. PS5 launched at $100 more than the PS4.Man, this new super powerful ps5 in your pocket Switch console launching at the exact same price as the 10 year old tech OLED Switch that someone just bought for that price yesterday is wild lol.
Doubt that will happen.
Ps5 launched $200 more than what the ps4 slim was selling for in 2020
the "I [don't] think" is doing a shit load of heavy lifting in all you're posts. unless you have evidence to back it up, making baseless conjectures isn't gonna get you anywhere but destinations that exist in your headI don't think that's how it works with Nvidia today though. You can't say "change the number of Tensor cores, or give us a special number of CUDA cores here there, change this CPU core, we love our embedded RAM, so you have to put embedded RAM on this thing, it's a Nintendo design philosophy staple!" etc. etc.
I don't think today they have that level of control. Sure they can request it, but it will come at a cost and likely impact a lot of things like the fabrication side of things, so I think Nintendo just doesn't bother anymore with that. Why make weird custom requests and then end up paying a ton of extra money.
The chip inside the Switch 2 I would bet is going to be like 95% an Nvidia design with maybe some input from Nintendo, but probably not nearly as much as people think.
Nvidia knows what they're doing, just get the heck outta their way and let them work.
At best I'd expected binned T239s to be used for a Shield-class product, but it's pretty clear from the leaks that unlike the TX1, this SOC was designed for Nintendo.
It's also, as previously discussed, got a different CPU core and cluster layout. It's also got a dedicated hardware file decompression system. It's also likely on a totally different production node. That's a lot of work for 'a variant of a car AI chip,' and points to NVidia making significant customizations to the SOC based on Nintendo's requirements.T239 is basically just a variant of a car AI chip Nvidia already had made just with (well) the car stuff cut out, and Nintendo likely paid quite a bit of R&D just to get that.
The broader point is this ... when people say "Nintendo would never do this!" and "Nintendo would never do that!" ... who says Nintendo is even in the passenger seat for these decisions? These are Nvidia's designs and hardware philosophy.
And frankly that's great. Nvidia is basically second to none in the graphics industry for a good reason. Let them handle the design decisions, it'll run that little Mario game just fine, no worries Nintendo.
I mean, games like Starfield and Baldur's Gate 3 are already CPU-bound on the current gen consoles, so it's not some theoretical future scenario that the Switch CPU might be a bottleneck at half the threads and half the frequency. Steam Deck and the ROG Ally are already gagging.
Ah, I see. The goalposts are moving. These games don't count because, uh, they contradict your point.You are talking about games that struggle to hit all platforms at launch already. Even after years and years of development. Both those games are going to spend years trying to post launch optimize and support them for the platforms they did release on.
So you are talking about the type of games that publishers will ignore for a Nintendo port for quite awhile. More likely than not, just skip the Nintendo platform altogether.
It won’t be the A78c cpu in the Switch that will hold back ports. Well, any more than the Tx1 held back major ports from the ps4/XboxOne (it didn’t)
You can give up 6 pizzas the first year, and from the second year go back to eating pizza, achieving the same result.If I could pay for a console for $100 a year over seven years, sure, but that upfront cost is relevant enough having to plan to save around bills, vacations, investments, and unexpected emergencies.
I'm not saying I'm an authority. Chill lol
it is not. the only thing that's similar is the architectures used. and even those aren't the same because there are differences. you can't keep making these claims if you don't understand the differencesT239 is basically just a variant of a car AI chip Nvidia already had made just with (well) the car stuff cut out, and Nintendo likely paid quite a bit of R&D just to get that.
The broader point is this ... when people say "Nintendo would never do this!" and "Nintendo would never do that!" ... who says Nintendo is even in the passenger seat for these decisions? I think people think Nintendo is driving the car when really it's more like they are in the back seat making suggestions here and there. These are Nvidia's designs and their hardware philosophy.
And frankly that's great. Nvidia is basically second to none in the graphics industry for a good reason. Let them handle the design decisions, it'll run that little Mario game just fine if it's pumping out the freaking Matrix Awakens demo, no worries Nintendo.
This would be a relevant topic: what is the price threshold that would make the console less desirable. But it is different from the discussion "for me it will cost 349" "for me 399" "for me 349"...if you price a console at a prohibited price no one will buy your console, like Sony priced PS3 at $600 and they suffered because of that
Alright, ignore timelol, me neither! I said I doubt your scenario would happen…not that it definitely won’t. Chill!
Ah, I see. The goalposts are moving. These games don't count because, uh, they contradict your point.
It's also, as previously discussed, got a different CPU core and cluster layout. It's also got a dedicated hardware file decompression system. It's also likely on a totally different production node. That's a lot of work for 'a variant of a car AI chip,' and points to NVidia making significant customizations to the SOC based on Nintendo's requirements.