Spoiler The Xenoblade Chronicles 3 Postgame & Spoiler Discussion Thread

[BassForever]

No, this is just flat wrong. The entire premise is based around the fact that humans were messing with a power from dimensions beyond our control, and playing god. The result was a massive annihilation of earth and the monkey paw of a "new universe" that didn't turn out the way the scientist expected. There's nothing "nonsensical" about it.

You're falling into the same trap of confusing a "fantasy element" with "nonsense". Just because something doesn't exist in real life doesn't mean it doesn't have to make sense at all.

This type of premise is a tried and true story that's been told in the sci-fi genre forever.

Like I said in my previous comment, the only challenge I ever seem to get on my criticism of 3's story is "well, 1 and 2 were just as bad!" which is frankly bullshit.

Edit: what annoys me about this type of response (of which you're not the first to give me) is it's the same mindset of people who respond to criticism of the Star Wars movies with "it's just a kids movie about space wizards!" which is disingenuous and limits discussion.

I love the story of all 3 Xeno games, and my point was not "it's space magic who cares", but that you can easily go down the rabbit hole of "how" in sci-fi that is a losing battle. You say Xeno 1's backstory is fine because "they were messing with powers beyond their control", but that doesn't actually explain how there is a conduit of infinite space power? Who built it? How did it end up in Klaus's dimension? Something made the conduit in the Xenoblade universe, meaning other people should be able to make things similar to it. Ultimately all those questions aren't relevant to the story XC1-2 are trying to tell, they're just a back story to set up the world to explore the themes and characters the writer wants to dive into.

So now we get to Xenoblade 3, which takes place an unknown amount of years after the events of Xenoblade 1 & 2, where their own advances in technology mixed with a chance meeting and exchanging of ideas allows them to create origin. Why were they able to make Origin? Well in a universe where it's established people somehow made the Conduit a perpetual energy machine, a giant data storage device like Origin seems logical. Ultimately the how isn't really important, the main thing that matters for the themes and story xc3 wants to tell is they were able to do it. I think that Origin is basically a giant core crystal, and from before the events of Xenoblade 2 half of Klaus was able to use that tech to make titans and blades. Give the world of Xenoblade 2 time with Klaus's research, mixed with some additional knowledge from Xenoblade 1, and yeah I think the two worlds combine could basically make a giant core crystal in Origin.

Also I think the obvious Z = Zanza parallel isn't brought up anywhere near as much as it should. Zanza in XC1 created a cycle of death and rebirth that would perpetuate his own life, he created this cycle out of a fear of a future where his creations would leave him which would cause his death. I think it's thematically very appropriate for that same fear to manifest itself inside of Origin from Zanza's creations in the form of Z/Moebius, who has the exact same goal.

 

[TurtleRock]

Where does the power to stop time come from?

Two key things.

1. Time hasn’t stopped. It is heavily implied that the universes are still in the process of merging with each other. Instead, Z is using origin to prolong the amount of time it will take for the the merger to complete (this is also is in line with his desire to prolong "the now" and avoid confronting the future). Again, we can look at how the Black fog works and things derived from the ending. Basically, matter from two universes cannot co-exist with each other or they’ll destroy themselves. This is why Taion makes sure he gives Eunie a notebook made from material “sourced from her world.” Because if he gave her a notebook from Agnus it would produce a mini Black Fog explosion in the Xeno 1 world. Another key hint, merging into a Oroborous form for too long causes a black fog explosion event. And, all links are between two people that originated in different worlds or factions (J and D for example). Also, these linked forms produce immense amount of energy which is a hint that two entire universes merging would also do the same. The black fog events are in fact evidence that time is in fact moving, but at super super slow speeds. The annihilation events are fragments of the two universes destroying themselves, and these universes are stuck in super slow time dilation. So slow that in theory it could be prolonged for eternity.

2. My read is that Z understands the energy used to “spark” origin and, in turn Aionios, is finite. In order to keep the stasis on the world he creates the flame clock system and harvests the life energy of Keves and Agnus. This energy is funneled back to origin and is used to keep “the lights on.” Again, several encounters with Mobius pretty much confirm this. For whatever reason, the life and souls of people can be harvested into energy. Which is sorta an extension of how the blade system works in Xeno 2.

 

[BradenAndEggs]

It's outright said that Z is the physical manifestation of all of Origin's souls' desires to to avoid the merger and destruction of the two universes, due to fear that Origin will fail to reboot the universes afterwards.

Yeah the glowing purple circuitry on Z’s (fly as hell by the way) outfit kind of drives that home for me as well.

 

[Toad King]

While I'm not as critical on the Consuls/Moebius as most other people, I have to agree that X and Y were really unnecessary. Being two of the "original Moebius" I would expect them to have a little more behind them but they never get expanded upon. At least X had some good cutscene moments but Y was kinda... just there.

 

[TurtleRock]

I love the story of all 3 Xeno games, and my point was not "it's space magic who cares", but that you can easily go down the rabbit hole of "how" in sci-fi that is a losing battle. You say Xeno 1's backstory is fine because "they were messing with powers beyond their control", but that doesn't actually explain how there is a conduit of infinite space power? Who built it? How did it end up in Klaus's dimension? Something made the conduit in the Xenoblade universe, meaning other people should be able to make things similar to it. Ultimately all those questions aren't relevant to the story XC1-2 are trying to tell, they're just a back story to set up the world to explore the themes and characters the writer wants to dive into.

You said it better than I could. There are a ton of unanswered questions across all three games that ultimately aren't necessary for appreciating the story being told. Which at the end of the day these games care more about the primary cast of characters more than anything else IMO. For the purposes of Noah and company's story, origin doesn't matter other than they need to regain control of it.

And on that note I firmly believe something made the conduit. Perhaps it was an alien race or something. I don't believe it's just some godly artifact. Takahashi, if anything, has strongly suggested across his entire body of work artifacts like the Zohar or the conduit are created by "something." And these entities don't consider themselves "gods." So if aliens or inter dimensional beings can make the conduit then origin is just as plausible an invention. Again, it's freaking scifi fantasy so I'm not going to think too much about it.

EDIT: Also, the conduit was not even present in the original Xeno 1 cutscene. That was pretty much retconned in Xeno 2. Which means if you played the original game first you wouldn't have even known there was perpetual energy device with infinite energy that served as the catalyst for creating the Xeno 1 world. You would have only seen some scientists on a space station doing something really dumb. I find that less believable than the worlds of Xeno 1 and 2 pooling their resources together to create Origin tbh.

 

[Seven]

As for the how the population in game sees the world - course most of them won't really know much about or question the world around them - their entire education comes from one textbook written to only teach them what they need to survive and fight in a war. No time for history lessons. The entire premise of the endless war is based on most soldier never questioning things. On top of that, we know Moebius actively doesn't want the citizens to know about the history of the world as they've gone around destroying things that could reveal too much.

The lack of world building as a negative is strange to me because I believe that that was the whole point of Aionios. To be able to grow as a society and develop a culture and history goes against everything Z and Moebius stand for as representations of the fear of change and the unknown future. The only place with any noticeable culture and past is the city created by rebels fighting against the stagnation Z is perpetrating.

Where does the power to stop time come from?

I said this before but I think you're taking the mention of time stopping too literally. One if the main themes of the Xenoblade series is that time is constantly moving forward; there is no going back to right things that have gone wrong. The same thing applies here, the universes collided and are gone there is no going back to save them. Instead Origin was created as a hail mary effort to preserve the worlds and people in another form. Z "stopping time" is just him preventing the recreated people from moving forward.

 

[Deleted member 2]

1. Time hasn’t stopped. It is heavily implied that the universes are still in the process of merging with each other. Instead, Z is using origin to prolong the amount of time it will take for the the merger to complete (this is also is in line with his desire to prolong "the now" and avoid confronting the future).

What you're describing is described by Z, Nia, and other characters as "stopping time". The question still stands.
Origin wasn't created to be able to do this - how was Z able to? It just doesn't make sense to me, because the only answer is that he just could.

Again, we can look at how the Black fog works and things derived from the ending. Basically, matter from two universes cannot co-exist with each other or they’ll destroy themselves. This is why Taion makes sure he gives Eunie a notebook made from material “sourced from her world.” Because if he gave her a notebook from Agnus it would produce a mini Black Fog explosion in the Xeno 1 world.

But that's not how Origin works. The end of the game implies that Noah is "rebooted" anew, potentially with "wisps" of memory from his time in Aionios. He didn't have his clothes, he didn't have anything on him. We can presume Eunie didn't "take" the notebook with her, either, so we really can't say we know how it works.

I'm not really sure how the black fog, or your description of the two universes being incompatible with each other (which I thought was pretty clearly laid out in the game) explains the "stoppage of time".

Another key hint, merging into a Oroborous form for too long causes a black fog explosion event. And, all links are between two people that originated in different worlds or factions (J and D for example). Also, these linked forms produce immense amount of energy which is a hint that two entire universes merging would also do the same. The black fog events are in fact evidence that time is in fact moving, but at super super slow speeds. The annihilation events are fragments of the two universes destroying themselves, and these universes are stuck in super slow time dilation. So slow that in theory it could be prolonged for eternity.

Yes, I agree, and the idea that the world's "time" was actually moving extremely slowly - Clockstoppers style - was something I gathered from playing the game. I still don't understand how Z / Origin was able to do that, though.

2. My read is that Z understands the energy used to “spark” origin and, in turn Aionios, is finite. In order to keep the stasis on the world he creates the flame clock system and harvests the life energy of Keves and Agnus. This energy is funneled back to origin and is used to keep “the lights on.” Again, several encounters with Mobius pretty much confirm this. For whatever reason, the life and souls of people can be harvested into energy. Which is sorta an extension of how the blade system works in Xeno 2.

Was this frozen stasis an intentional function of Origin? If so, why? If not, how was Z able to accomplish it?

 

[xghost777]

What you're describing is described by Z, Nia, and other characters as "stopping time". The question still stands.
Origin wasn't created to be able to do this - how was Z able to? It just doesn't make sense to me, because the only answer is that he just could.


But that's not how Origin works. The end of the game implies that Noah is "rebooted" anew, potentially with "wisps" of memory from his time in Aionios. He didn't have his clothes, he didn't have anything on him. We can presume Eunie didn't "take" the notebook with her, either, so we really can't say we know how it works.

I'm not really sure how the black fog, or your description of the two universes being incompatible with each other (which I thought was pretty clearly laid out in the game) explains the "stoppage of time".



Yes, I agree, and the idea that the world's "time" was actually moving extremely slowly - Clockstoppers style - was something I gathered from playing the game. I still don't understand how Z / Origin was able to do that, though.




Was this frozen stasis an intentional function of Origin? If so, why? If not, how was Z able to accomplish it?

Z is described as a being from beyond dimensions. He just can is basically all there is to him on that front. I think the more interesting part of Z is how he was attracted, empowered, and ultimately changed by humanity and how that made him vulnerable.

 

[Deleted member 2]

So if aliens or inter dimensional beings can make the conduit then origin is just as plausible an invention.

You're talking unseen interdimensional aliens whose infinite power is left to the imagination, vs. literally Tora, Nia, and three black hooded figures.

Come on, a wall of text isn't going to convince me that that's an easy pill to swallow. I'm not even here to debate this. I've simply stated my "take" that the premise of this game is asking too much of me. Nobody needs to defend it from that.

Again, it's freaking scifi fantasy so I'm not going to think too much about it.

"Accept it" and "overthink it" aren't the only two options here. Once again, like I mentioned previously, this is the same thing as people who dismiss criticism of the Star Wars movies with "it's just a kids movie about space wizards!"

 

[Deleted member 2]

Z is described as a being from beyond dimensions. He just can is basically all there is to him on that front. I think the more interesting part of Z is how he was attracted, empowered, and ultimately changed by humanity and how that made him vulnerable.

Z was humanity. He was the manifestation of the fear of the end that existed in all the lives stored in Origin. He was a concept, as stated directly in the game.

He is a product of humanity's aggregate fear of death and the loss of control of one's destiny turned corporeal.

In fact, I think that would be cool as shit if Z was an extra dimensional being that took advantage of the characters meddling in creating Origin by usurping its power to control "lesser" dimensional beings. That'd be cool as hell. But Z was human fear incarnate.

 

[Deleted member 2]

I said this before but I think you're taking the mention of time stopping too literally. One if the main themes of the Xenoblade series is that time is constantly moving forward; there is no going back to right things that have gone wrong. The same thing applies here, the universes collided and are gone there is no going back to save them. Instead Origin was created as a hail mary effort to preserve the worlds and people in another form. Z "stopping time" is just him preventing the recreated people from moving forward.

That's an interesting interpretation. Preventing the recreated people from moving forward in what way?

 

[EtherPenguin]

Z is described as a being from beyond dimensions. He just can is basically all there is to him on that front. I think the more interesting part of Z is how he was attracted, empowered, and ultimately changed by humanity and how that made him vulnerable.

It sounds like you're describing Z as something like the Wave Existence. I thought all text in the game says Z came from within Origin, a glitch in the system manifested by the desires of the digitized souls for everything to remain the same and fear of the future. As another poster mentioned on the last page, during the final boss Noah says something about Z being Origin's true form.

 

[Deleted member 2]

It sounds like you're describing Z as something like the Wave Existence. I thought all text in the game says Z came from within Origin, a glitch in the system manifested by the desires of the digitized souls for everything to remain the same and fear of the future. As another poster mentioned on the last page, during the final boss Noah says something about Z being Origin's true form.

I feel like I'm being gaslit that my criticisms of and dissatisfaction with the game's premise is unjustified and invalid when I feel like I'm staring at it in the face... like, I can't be the only one who feels like it's asking too much to believe that Tora and friends made The Conduit Mk. II just because "the Conduit is unexplained", right?

 

[Toad King]

Z is described as a being from beyond dimensions. He just can is basically all there is to him on that front. I think the more interesting part of Z is how he was attracted, empowered, and ultimately changed by humanity and how that made him vulnerable.

I don't think that's the case at all. Nothing in the game suggests that Z is anything but the souls and technology inside Origin.

As for how Z has the power he has, the game never dives deep into that. The game never explains it beyond "the two worlds created Origin to host souls and reboot the worlds, but people's fear/Z took over it and stopped the reboot process." As for how Origin works, we don't know. Any attempted explanation of it will always dive into theorycrafting a bit and explaining all the mechanics behind it is impossible without making huge guesses or assumptions around the logic of the world. I also have my doubts that any DLC will answer these questions as well. The "How" just doesn't matter as much as the "Why" in this story. I don't mean to sound dismissive but just because something isn't explained doesn't mean it's magic or nonsensical.

I feel like I'm being gaslit that my criticisms of and dissatisfaction with the game's premise is unjustified and invalid when I feel like I'm staring at it in the face... like, I can't be the only one who feels like it's asking too much to believe that Tora and friends made The Conduit Mk. II just because "the Conduit is unexplained", right?

Not to dismiss your criticism but it really sounds like you're trying to get hard sci-fi answers from the story when the story does not have them. Like a Star Trek vs. Star Wars situation.

 

[xghost777]

Z was humanity. He was the manifestation of the fear of the end that existed in all the lives stored in Origin. He was a concept, as stated directly in the game.

He is a product of humanity's aggregate fear of death and the loss of control of one's destiny turned corporeal.

In fact, I think that would be cool as shit if Z was an extra dimensional being that took advantage of the characters meddling in creating Origin by usurping its power to control "lesser" dimensional beings. That'd be cool as hell. But Z was human fear incarnate.

It sounds like you're describing Z as something like the Wave Existence. I thought all text in the game says Z came from within Origin, a glitch in the system manifested by the desires of the digitized souls for everything to remain the same and fear of the future. As another poster mentioned on the last page, during the final boss Noah says something about Z being Origin's true form.

I really strongly recall some text / dialog that said he existed prior to Origin (and was not a person at all prior to this interaction) and was shaped by it otherwise my understanding / read of this game, its events, and purpose is just completely off. Next time I play through this game, I will take extensive notes / screen grabs if there isn’t some definitive conclusion found or brought forth by Takahashi himself by then lol.

 

[Deleted member 2]

Not to dismiss your criticism but it really sounds like you're trying to get hard sci-fi answers from the story when the story does not have them. Like a Star Trek vs. Star Wars situation.

I promise you, and I don't know how much harder I can express it, but I'm really not.

I'm trying to get believable and tonally consistent answers that are satisfying.

As for Origin vs. Conduit, "Tora and friends made it, I don't know, use your imagination" does not do it for me in the same way as "an enormous monolith was discovered deep in the sands of Kenya, which proved to be an anomalous interdimentional gateway which accessed unlimited energy, which naturally led to global disputes and a last-ditch effort to save humanity, which led to disaster, which led to an eternal attempt for repentance from the scientist who caused it, which led to a new Earth called Alrest"

 

[Deleted member 2]

I really strongly recall some text / dialog that said he existed prior to Origin (and was not a person at all prior to this interaction) and was shaped by it otherwise my understanding / read of this game, its events, and purpose is just completely off. Next time I play through this game, I will take extensive notes / screen grabs if there isn’t some definitive conclusion found or brought forth by Takahashi himself by then lol.

@ 6:30 is Melia's explanation of Z right before the final boss

 

[BradenAndEggs]

After a second playthrough I don’t exactly think Z is literally “stopping time.” More accurately, he’s frozen Origin’s process so the two worlds can’t be rebooted.

Using Nia’s explanation, I’m pretty sure Z is “freezing” the collision process. Or more likely just preventing Origin from doing what it is supposed to do and letting the remnants of the collision slowly disappear. Letting the worlds slowly “cancel each other out” as Nia would say.

Aionios itself seems to be is what is “left over” from the initial collision. The annihilation events, fused environments, etc.

I also think there were some survivors of the initial collision before it was halted because Nia and Melia seem to be “our” Nia and Melia and not part of Z’s system. The other initial survivors (Rex/Shulk) have probably all died out. Melia and Nia also have biometric keys to Origin Nia talks about.

I’m thinking time isn’t is literally “stopped” because the worlds where time was flowing don’t exist anymore. They collided. What’s left is Aionios. Sure, the two worlds’ histories are “paused” right now, but it’s because the timelines bumped into each other and don’t exist anymore. Origin needs to fix them.

The worlds are waiting for Origin to “reboot” (recreate) them at the exact “time” they intersected. So time would “resume” from there. (We see this in the post credits.)

Z’s not letting the reboot happen and instead maintaining an unsustainable status quo (annihilation events gradually canceling out the merged worlds) due to the uncertainty of how reliable Origin is from the souls stored there.

 

[EtherPenguin]

I feel like I'm being gaslit that my criticisms of and dissatisfaction with the game's premise is unjustified and invalid when I feel like I'm staring at it in the face... like, I can't be the only one who feels like it's asking too much to believe that Tora and friends made The Conduit Mk. II just because "the Conduit is unexplained", right?

I can assure you you're not alone on that one. I didn't want to get dramatic about things and I'm sure my own posts have rubbed others the wrong way so I don't want to come across as hypocritical, but I can understand how you feel.

For me, it's the worlds froze (or slowed down enough to might as well be frozen) vs collided and were destroyed debate that's been causing non-stop frustration. When I make the case for one, a bunch of replies say I've got it wrong, when I agree and say the other, I still get a bunch of replies saying I'm wrong. And I know some feel it doesn't matter because the character interactions and themes are what's important, but I think knowing whether the worlds froze or were destroyed would have meaning to the themes Takahashi's trying to express.

If anything, I'm curious what the materials book for 3 is going to be like.

 

[Deleted member 2]

After a second playthrough I don’t exactly think Z is literally “stopping time.” More accurately, he’s frozen Origin’s process so the two worlds can’t be rebooted.

I think you'd be pressed to convince anyone who believes that the black fog and annihilation events are evidence that the universes are still in the act of converging (which would imply he stopped time in "real life")

 

[Deleted member 2]

I can assure you you're not alone on that one. I didn't want to get dramatic about things and I'm sure my own posts have rubbed others the wrong way so I don't want to come across as hypocritical, but I can understand how you feel.

Thank you, that's all I really needed to hear. From someone lol.

For me, it's the worlds froze (or slowed down enough to might as well be frozen) vs collided and were destroyed debate that's been causing non-stop frustration. When I make the case for one, a bunch of replies say I've got it wrong, when I agree and say the other, I still get a bunch of replies saying I'm wrong.

This alone tells me the game did not explain it well enough, and gives conflicting evidence of what happened

And I know some feel it doesn't matter because the character interactions and themes are what's important,

Yes, the age-old argument as to why Lost's ending was actually good.

but I think knowing whether the worlds froze or were destroyed would have meaning to the themes Takahashi's trying to express.

I agree, in addition to allowing me to fully invest in the fate of these characters. I feel like it's difficult when I don't even know their fate, and can't really get a solid grasp on their world to begin with. It all feels very "surface level", and doesn't really have a satisfying "click" on how it all goes together - where the theme justifies the content, and the content validates the theme.

If anything, I'm curious what the materials book for 3 is going to be like.

Meeeee too. Honestly, it gives me big "concept art first, story second", a la The Force Awakens

 

[BradenAndEggs]

I think you'd be pressed to convince anyone who believes that the black fog and annihilation events are evidence that the universes are still in the act of converging (which would imply he stopped time in "real life")

The black fog and annihilation events seem to be the real world consequences of the worlds “canceling each other out” and being “plus and minus” as Nia says.

We saw a little of this in Future Connected which would be the first signs of the intersection drawing near.

So why wouldn’t it still be happening in Aionios which is what is leftover from those worlds?

 

[xghost777]

@ 6:30 is Melia's explanation of Z right before the final boss

I wanted to say we knew before that scene, but the scene I looked up that I thought it might be wasn’t it either…I’ll have to keep digging. It would be nice to set the record straight once and for all. Thanks for the major cutscene playlist.

My big fear with this and why I feel I’m just going to have to do a second playthrough, is that the info was in a side quest or some optional dialogue and that’s why no one can agree what happened.

 

[Deleted member 2]

The black fog and annihilation events seem to be the real world consequences of the worlds “canceling each other out” and being “plus and minus” as Nia says.

We saw a little of this in Future Connected which would be the first signs of the intersection drawing near.

So why wouldn’t it still be happening in Aionios which is what is leftover from those worlds?

Because Aionios is not leftover from those worlds, it was created by Z using the data inside Origin as stated in the game. The presence of the black fog is never given a satisfying explanation; it really only makes sense thematically, when you point out that it shows the futility of Z's efforts to stop fate.

 

[Deleted member 2]

I wanted to say we knew before that scene, but the scene I looked up that I thought it might be wasn’t it either…I’ll have to keep digging. It would be nice to set the record straight once and for all. Thanks for the major cutscene playlist.

Regardless, that is the final day on Z's nature, from what can be regarded as the highest authority on the subject. I don't know how the record can be more straight than that. Did you mean there's further detail given to Z's "origins" (no pun intended)?

 

[Deleted member 2]

My big fear with this and why I feel I’m just going to have to do a second playthrough, is that the info was in a side quest or some optional dialogue and that’s why no one can agree what happened.

I think it would even be valid to criticize the game for hiding such a crucial part in understanding the nature of the main antagonist behind such optional content

 

[EtherPenguin]

Aionios itself seems to be is what is “left over” from the initial collision. The annihilation events, fused environments, etc.

On top of this, what would you think of the idea that there are no remnants of the original worlds, but the fused environments (and all of Aionios) are a result of Origin just spitting out random matter from its data right when it booted up to reconstruct and subsequently malfunctioned. The annihilation events would still occur for the matter coming from Origin since the humans made from Origin cause annihilation events when interlinking for too long.

The thing that makes me think this is the case is that locations around the Lost Colony have Urayan location names (Rujah and Farlaine) despite being on the other side of Aionios from Uraya. At first, I thought it was just because the Saffronia trees grow around the Lost Colony so it made sense to name the surrounding areas after Urayan locations, but no one on Aionios should have any knowledge about that. It would make more since to me if Origin just spit out a little extra Uraya data in Cadensia even though it already reconstructed the rest of Uraya elsewhere because it was going haywire.

 

[Deleted member 2]

Fuck it, I'll quadpost. Mods are asleep and I'm feeling like a bad boy

 

[xghost777]

Here’s the cutscene showing the world blowing up to some extent. This has been a point of debate. Interesting its shown as art rather than a detailed cutscene.

 

[Deleted member 2]

On top of this, what would you think of the idea that there are no remnants of the original worlds, but the fused environments (and all of Aionios) are a result of Origin just spitting out random matter from its data right when it booted up to reconstruct and subsequently malfunctioned. The annihilation events would still occur for the matter coming from Origin since the humans made from Origin cause annihilation events when interlinking for too long.

The thing that makes me think this is the case is that locations around the Lost Colony have Urayan location names (Rujah and Farlaine) despite being on the other side of Aionios from Uraya. At first, I thought it was just because the Saffronia trees grow around the Lost Colony so it made sense to name the surrounding areas after Urayan locations, but no one on Aionios should have any knowledge about that. It would make more since to me if Origin just spit out a little extra Uraya data in Cadensia even though it already reconstructed the rest of Uraya elsewhere because it was going haywire.

Also, Dannagh Desert exists, which is pretty much all the evidence you need to show that Aionios is constructed from the data within Origin

 

[xghost777]

Regardless, that is the final day on Z's nature, from what can be regarded as the highest authority on the subject. I don't know how the record can be more straight than that. Did you mean there's further detail given to Z's "origins" (no pun intended)?

From my mind/perspective yeah this was one of the final pieces of the puzzle, not the definitive answer. We had other info about his origin that this cutscene supplemented.

I think it would even be valid to criticize the game for hiding such a crucial part in understanding the nature of the main antagonist behind such optional content

100%. I think it’s cool most of the side content is written in a way that you can enjoy it whenever you encounter it, but this super crucial piece of story info that I think exists, but may not since I can’t point to it is incredibly frustrating. Like this debate should not have been going for like 20+ days now. If my side is wrong, I at least want to know what I thought I saw that led me to believe this. I generally pay attention in games I care about!

 

[Deleted member 2]

I generally pay attention in games I care about!

well I promise you I genuinely hope you find it too, simply because it would be a cool implication, and kind of upend things.

 

[EtherPenguin]

Also, Dannagh Desert exists, which is pretty much all the evidence you need to show that Aionios is constructed from the data within Origin

Yea, I'm surprised they had Dannagh data at all. I get wanting to preserve Morytha for historical and scientific purposes, but I'm surprised they would be able to find remnants of Dannagh or how that went down. I'm surprised by how much of the Bionis still exists too after a lot of it crumbled into the sea and Nene implies Makna doesn't exist anymore during one of FC's quiet moments.

 

[BradenAndEggs]

Because Aionios is not leftover from those worlds, it was created by Z using the data inside Origin as stated in the game. The presence of the black fog is never given a satisfying explanation; it really only makes sense thematically, when you point out that it shows the futility of Z's efforts to stop fate.

Nia’s direct quote is “The reboot process failed to initiate. Instead, in that instant the worlds became still by the will of Moebius. At the heart of it was their ringleader Z. You could say that Z embodies this frozen world.” That last sentence is what I’m talking about.

So the worlds were mid collision, Origin didn’t reboot the worlds because Z (souls in Origin) didn’t want it to, and Z is now in charge of this “frozen world.”

Notice how she went from talking about two separate worlds and then about one singular one? I think the worlds “becoming still” is what’s left. Aionios.

There’s nothing about using the data in Origin to “make” Aionios. Nia even says “he didn’t need to do anything after that.”

Just using Melia’s biometric key to Origin to start spitting out child soldiers.

The interlinking drawing fog and annihilation events alongside Nia’s explanation of the worlds canceling each other out are enough of an explanation I suppose. It is buried in the game though without any main cutscene reveal.

 

[Deleted member 2]

Yea, I'm surprised they had Dannagh data at all. I get wanting to preserve Morytha for historical and scientific purposes, but I'm surprised they would be able to find remnants of Dannagh or how that went down. I'm surprised by how much of the Bionis still exists too after a lot of it crumbled into the sea and Nene implies Makna doesn't exist anymore during one of FC's quiet moments.

It's another example of prioritizing fanservice before logical storytelling, imo.

 

[Deleted member 2]

Nia’s direct quote is “The reboot process failed to initiate. Instead, in that instant the worlds became still by the will of Moebius. At the heart of it was their ringleader Z. You could say that Z embodies this frozen world.” That last sentence is what I’m talking about.

Nia says "Z embodies this world" to mean that Z is the reason for and perpetuator of it. What you're saying is Universes we're frozen —> Z embodies (rules?) universes —> Z rules Aionios —> therefore universes = Aionios, which is a lot to take from that one line.

So the worlds were mid collision, Origin didn’t reboot the worlds because Z (souls in Origin) didn’t want it to, and Z is now in charge of this “frozen world.”

This honestly doesn't make any sense to me.

You're saying Z stopped time in the universes that were colliding. This directly contradicts what others have been saying in this thread.

Is time stopped in Origin, or is it stopped in the universes?

Notice how she went from talking about two separate worlds and then about one singular one? I think the worlds “becoming still” is what’s left. Aionios.

There’s nothing about using the data in Origin to “make” Aionios. Nia even says “he didn’t need to do anything after that.”

This doesn't explain why Dannagh desert exists. It was already destroyed and at the bottom of Aionios. Was it somehow revitalized?

Just using Melia’s biometric key to Origin to start spitting out child soldiers.

The interlinking drawing fog and annihilation events alongside Nia’s explanation of the worlds channeling each other out are enough of an explanation I suppose. It is buried in the game though without any main cutscene reveal.

I'm trying to understand what you mean. Are you saying Aionios is the universes colliding? Like, outside Origin?

 

[BradenAndEggs]

Nia says "Z embodies this world" to mean that Z is the reason for and perpetuator of it. What you're saying is Universes we're frozen —> Z embodies (rules?) universes —> Z rules Aionios —> therefore universes = Aionios, which is a lot to take from that one line.


This honestly doesn't make any sense to me.

You're saying Z stopped time in the universes that were colliding. This directly contradicts what others have been saying in this thread.

Is time stopped in Origin, or is it stopped in the universes?


This doesn't explain why Dannagh desert exists. It was already destroyed and at the bottom of Aionios. Was it somehow revitalized?


I'm trying to understand what you mean. Are you saying Aionios is the universes colliding? Like, outside Origin?

Z is the reason and perpetrator of Aionios. He didn’t let Origin work. (Well. Technically Klaus and the Intersection are.)

I’m mostly saying that Aionios is what happens when Origin isn’t allowed to function.

A floating hybrid landmass a fraction of a fraction of the worlds that crashed making it, steadily eroded away by annihilation events. Possibly even until “only light remains” like Nia was saying.

Z is using tech in Origin to play god in the husk of two worlds. Him “embodying” the world to me means he’s humanity’s fear of letting Origin work and face an uncertain future and Aionios’ continued non-rebooted existence is the result of him refusing to move on.

Haha I wasn’t really talking about time. “Frozen world” to me just means that the leftovers of the two worlds are Aionios and Z won’t let Origin reboot everything and get rid of it. He’s keeping everything “frozen” instead of letting the worlds have the future they were supposed to.

Since we’re talking about time though, I was saying earlier I think the flow of “time” in the two worlds doesn’t exist like we knew because they crashed. I think there is “Aionios time” now. After Origin reboots the recreated timelines will “”“resume””” again. (They will be newly created.) Right now there’s no reason to stop time in those worlds because they are Aionios now. They crashed.

Dannagh Desert to me just feels like a cool reference, but there’s nothing saying that area of Torna wasn’t still near Morytha, and when the crash happened became an arid landscape again.

 

[Jannyish]

I feel like I'm being gaslit that my criticisms of and dissatisfaction with the game's premise is unjustified and invalid when I feel like I'm staring at it in the face... like, I can't be the only one who feels like it's asking too much to believe that Tora and friends made The Conduit Mk. II just because "the Conduit is unexplained", right?

If it helps, I agree. I think you're asking for explanations that make sense, and the fact that they don't exist is exactly what's your criticism of the game.

You're right in saying the conduit is more believable. Because it's source is unknown, so we don't know how advanced whoever made it is. Maybe if we knew, it's existence would make total sense. But for Origin, we KNOW those two worlds who were involved in creating it and we KNOW their technological capabilities, so it makes sense to question how exactly they made something like Origin with what they had. Or, alternatively, what they invented/discovered between the end of their respective games and the beginning of this game, that DID make it possible. The Conduit is not retconning anything because we never knew anything about the place it came from. Origin came from a place we know about so we should understand how they made it.

People can argue that "it's not important to the story" all they want, but that doesn't erase the fact that if you think more than 2 seconds about it, the logic behind it falls apart.

Here is a real life parallel, please humor me: How exactly planes work is not important to my personal story in life (since they only play a minor role in my story). But if I asked, someone could explain to me how planes work. Because they do make sense. Do I need to know for my life to make sense? No. But the world my life takes place in would make no sense if reality decided that planes "just work, stop thinking about it, there is no explanation".

Anyways, bottom line is: I was confused throughout all three Xenoblade Chronicles games. I was like "??? - what how???" so often. And Xenoblade 1 and 2 gave me a real sense of satisfaction when they answered ALL of that confusion in a coherent way that made sense by the end of the game. Xenoblade 3 left me with so many open questions, so many, that I doubt a story dlc could answer them all. It makes all the moments of confusion feel hollow because the answer to my confusion is just "there is no answer", which is about as unsatisfying as it can get.

I still like Xenoblade 3, don't get me wrong. Characters, music, world design, combat the overall premise, side content, stuff like that makes up for the lackluster explanations in the story department. But as a Trails fan who watched people hammer down hard on how they resolved the Cold Steel Arc (not going into detail here for spoiler reasons), it baffles me how people can praise this at the same time because in my book, this makes a lot less sense than anything that happened in Cold Steel.

 

[Deleted member 2]

Z is the reason and perpetrator of Aionios. He didn’t let Origin work. (Well. Technically Klaus and the Intersection are.)

I’m mostly saying that Aionios is what happens when Origin isn’t allowed to function.

A floating hybrid landmass a fraction of a fraction of the worlds that crashed making it, steadily eroded away by annihilation events. Possibly even until “only light remains” like Nia was saying.

Z is using tech in Origin to play god in the husk of two worlds. Him “embodying” the world to me means he’s humanity’s fear of letting Origin work and face an uncertain future and Aionios’ continued non-rebooted existence is the result of him refusing to move on.

Haha I wasn’t really talking about time. “Frozen world” to me just means that the leftovers of the two worlds are Aionios and Z won’t let Origin reboot everything and get rid of it. He’s keeping everything “frozen” instead of letting the worlds have the future they were supposed to.

But you're saying the leftovers of the universes - Aionios - are frozen in time, mid-collision. Like, you're saying he stopped time.

Not just that he stopped Origin, but that the universes are colliding, and he stopped them, mid-collision. That Aionios is the universes mid-collision. Stopped in time.

I mean am I crazy? Is that not what you're describing?

Since we’re talking about time though, I was saying earlier I think the flow of “time” in the two worlds doesn’t exist like we knew because they crashed. I think there is “Aionios time” now. After Origin reboots the recreated timelines will “”“resume””” again. (They will be newly created.) Right now there’s no reason to stop time in those worlds because they are Aionios now. They crashed.

Dannagh Desert to me just feels like a cool reference, but there’s nothing saying that area of Torna wasn’t still near Morytha, and when the crash happened became an arid landscape again.

This is just too far a leap in logic for me. To suggest that Torna happened to bounce right back into looking exactly how it did before, with the same color sand, ridged slopes, flora, and fauna, just by chance? Why didn't Uraya do the same, or Fallen Arm, or anywhere else?

I think the reason I'm being debated so much about my criticism is that some people have a much easier time letting go of inconsistencies and irrational logic than I do, rather than there not being any of it.

 

[BradenAndEggs]

But you're saying the leftovers of the universes - Aionios - are frozen in time, mid-collision. Like, you're saying he stopped time.

Not just that he stopped Origin, but that the universes are colliding, and he stopped them, mid-collision. That Aionios is the universes mid-collision. Stopped in time.

I mean am I crazy? Is that not what you're describing?




This is just too far a leap in logic for me. To suggest that Torna happened to bounce right back into looking exactly how it did before, with the same color sand, ridged slopes, flora, and fauna, just by chance? Why didn't Uraya do the same, or Fallen Arm, or anywhere else?

I think the reason I'm being debated so much about my criticism is that some people have a much easier time letting go of inconsistencies and irrational logic than I do, rather than there not being any of it.

I’m not saying anything about stopping time.

Clearly it didn’t stop because Aionios continues to have multiple cycles of humans being rebirthed. There’s even a flashback to 1000 years ago.

I’m saying the collision happened and Aionios is all that is left. It’s mid collision because it isn’t done yet. There are still parts of Aionios that haven’t been annihilated yet. Canceled out. It’s getting there though. There’s no future there. That’s why the party made the decision they did at the end.

I’m saying time didn’t stop in XC1 and XC2 worlds because they collided.

Believe it or not, I’m not trying to “well, actually” anyone here. I’m just trying offer some explanations that might help some enjoy the game and story as much as I do. : ( Not everyone will like everything unfortunately.

The exposition in this one can be very XC1 at times (Why exactly when Klaus and Galea were sucked into a new world was it just water? Why were they giants? Why was one mechanical and one not? Etc.)

So, like the other games I like finding answers with everyone.

 

[Deleted member 2]

I’m not saying anything about stopping time.

Clearly it didn’t stop because Aionios continues to have multiple cycles of humans being rebirthed. There’s even a flashback to 1000 years ago.

I’m saying the collision happened and Aionios is all that is left. It’s mid collision because it isn’t done yet. There are still parts of Aionios that haven’t been annihilated yet. Canceled out. It’s getting there though. There’s no future there. That’s why the party made the decision they did at the end.

I’m saying time didn’t stop in XC1 and XC2 worlds because they collided.

Do you mean Aionios is the universes colliding in real-time, with no time stoppage whatsoever?

That doesn't make sense, because every indication given to us by the game is that the collision was near instantaneous destruction — at the least very fast.

What you're saying, that the last bit of the universes collision process took 1000+ years to finish, doesn't really make sense at all, and to say that discrepency is not the result of what Nia describes as "Z stopping time" further confuses things.

I'm all for you providing answers. I just can't make sense of anybody's answers just yet. I'm not being obtuse — I want to like this game probably more than most people.

 

[Jannyish]

I thought a little. I think the reason why there not being an explanation bothers me so much for XC3 is that the game sets itself up for an explanation to come that just never comes. A blatant example: Noah asks Riku who he really is, Riku dodges the question, Noah clearly does not buy it. Then, that knowing look between Riku and Melia.

And then: Nothing. It's like they set up plot threads but just simply FORGOT about them. Maybe I would be more lenient with us never finding out who Riku is (or other plot points for that matter), if the writers didn't bring up those inconsistencies and questions themselves. I could buy "who Riku is is not important" if the game itself hadn't raised the question of who he is, & why would they do that if it wasn't important?

Same for the existence of Mio & Noah by the way. M herself says "You shouldn't have existed in the first place.", raising the issue and at the same time the question if why then, do they exist? In this case, at least we do get an attempt at an explanation, but if"they're the embodiment of N and M's hopes" is really all you can come up with then you shouldn't have raised the question in the first place. At least explain how someone's hopes can create people then. Or how someone's fear can, for that matter. Be clearer in your explanations if you are gonna bring the issue to attention. Or answer them at all, maybe? Like in Riku's case.

The reason I thought about this at all is because of my profile pic lmao. Cause I know I love that movie to death but many of the things in that movie make no logical sense either. So I was wondering what makes me bothered about it here vs. why I don't care much there. And the answer that came to me was: There are things that the movie does not answer. But the things that it DOESN'T answer, it never raises the question in the first place. The viewer might still wonder about it, but I have an easier time suspending my disbelief and going with "it's not important" when the writers themselves don't dig their own holes...

 

[BradenAndEggs]

Do you mean Aionios is the universes colliding in real-time, with no time stoppage whatsoever?

That doesn't make sense, because every indication given to us by the game is that the collision was near instantaneous destruction — at the least very fast.

What you're saying, that the last bit of the universes collision process took 1000+ years to finish, doesn't really make sense at all, and to say that discrepency is not the result of what Nia describes as "Z stopping time" further confuses things.

I'm all for you providing answers. I just can't make sense of anybody's answers just yet. I'm not being obtuse — I want to like this game probably more than most people.

Nia’s quote about Z is that he is “keeping everything in its place, in stasis.” No mention of time.

While the intersection would probably be near instant death and destruction, and probably was to a large degree, Nia implies Z(Origin) is keeping what’s left of the worlds from annihilating each other completely.

The game does show Z’s efforts aren’t working though. Annihilation events happen, and Noah in the opening cinematic says his world is “dying.” So the collision is visibly trying to finish no matter how many tricks with Origin Z uses…

 

[Deleted member 2]

Nia’s quote about Z is that he is “keeping everything in its place, in stasis.” No mention of time.

While the intersection would probably be near instant death and destruction, and probably was to a large degree, Nia implies Z(Origin) is keeping what’s left of the worlds from annihilating each other completely.

The game does show Z’s efforts aren’t working though. Annihilation events happen, and Noah in the opening cinematic says his world is “dying.” So the collision is visibly trying to finish no matter how many tricks with Origin Z uses…

Why is the last bit of the universe collision taking 1000+ years to complete, as if in slow motion.

 

[Deleted member 2551]

It makes sense if you see it as Aionios being a simulation run at something like 100000000000x the speed of the real world. In what for the outside world is 1 instant, in Aionios is thousand/million years.

Or at least that's how it makes the most sense to me.

 

[BassForever]

If it helps, I agree. I think you're asking for explanations that make sense, and the fact that they don't exist is exactly what's your criticism of the game.

You're right in saying the conduit is more believable. Because it's source is unknown, so we don't know how advanced whoever made it is. Maybe if we knew, it's existence would make total sense. But for Origin, we KNOW those two worlds who were involved in creating it and we KNOW their technological capabilities, so it makes sense to question how exactly they made something like Origin with what they had.

Tell me, what exactly do you know about either XC1 or 2's world after the events of FC & 2 up until the moment Origin is invented? We know Melia and Nia got into contact and were able to build some kind of inter-dimensional telephone, and we know Noah and friends lives in a castle town as kids... and I think that's it. You have no idea about the state of either world, or what advances they've made in the unknown amount of years since. That's why I said "you're just choosing to nitpick the things you get hung up on". If you're really saying you would have liked the story of XC3 more if Origin's back story was "we found the halves while exploring our new worlds, some kind of left over tech from when the worlds were first together" or "we found the blue prints to origin in the records left behind by Zanza/Klaus" then I truly feel you're being pedantic about why it bothers you.

 

[Jannyish]

Tell me, what exactly do you know about either XC1 or 2's world after the events of FC & 2 up until the moment Origin is invented? We know Melia and Nia got into contact and were able to build some kind of inter-dimensional telephone, and we know Noah and friends lives in a castle town as kids... and I think that's it. You have no idea about the state of either world, or what advances they've made in the unknown amount of years since. That's why I said "you're just choosing to nitpick the things you get hung up on". If you're really saying you would have liked the story of XC3 more if Origin's back story was "we found the halves while exploring our new worlds, some kind of left over tech from when the worlds were first together" or "we found the blue prints to origin in the records left behind by Zanza/Klaus" then I truly feel you're being pedantic about why it bothers you.

Exactly. I know nothing. Hence, I should be told. The worlds of Xenoblade 1 and 2 are worlds near and dear to my heart because I know them from previous games. It's not some abstract worlds i know nothing about. Anything that happens in those worlds that is somehow connected to the story of this game should not be handwaved as "there is an explanation but they can just assume it, we are not gonna give it to them". I don't demand the entire history of the other two worlds, I just wish I had info on things that directly connect to what happens in the XC3 story, not more, not less.

So the examples you gave are very rudimentary ofc, but exactly something along those lines should be explained, yes. And this isn't even because i needed more crossover. It's because otherwise, there is a gaping hole in my knowledge of the story of THIS game too. Because having the knowledge of Xenoblade 1 and 2, I DON'T understand how they made something like Origin. Nevertheless, Origin exists. So we have two facts, two things we know here that don't add up, and one gaping hole in the middle that would explain how all of this came about, and you're telling me I can't be bothered by that hole not being filled when it could have been done very easily? It would hardly have taken more than what you just conjured up in probably 2 minutes. That's my whole issue here - there are plot holes they wrote themselves into and then they didn't even do the bare minimum to fill them. You're right, it wouldn't take much imagination to fill those holes. Which is exactly why I am bothered by them not doing that bare minimum.

Though like I pointed out earlier, the whole "how Origin came about" thing isn't the only issue I have with the game. It just raises too many questions, ACTIVELY raises them and brings them to the players attention. ACTIVELY. They chose to put a spotlight on those questions when they didn't have to. And then they just never answer them.

Also I would appreciate if people didn't decide for me what is ok to be bothered about and what isn't. I am not asking anyone to be bothered like me. If you aren't, that's cool. Trust me i wish I could share that sentiment because it would certainly be more fun. But I am just not. I can't pretend it doesn't bother me when it does.

But I am just trying to explain why it bothered ME, personally, I am not trying to push that feeling on anyone else. So I would appreciate it if that could be accepted just like I can accept that it just doesn't bother some people. Thank you.

 

[JR436]

Got to Chapter 6 last night. Finally.

Might be recency bias but everything from the prison break to seeing the City remains at Hope's Rest was absolute top-tier Xenoblade.

Props to Harry McEntire for really pulling off his scenes as Noah and N too.

 

[Jannyish]

Got to Chapter 6 last night. Finally.

Might be recency bias but everything from the prison break to seeing the City remains at Hope's Rest was absolute top-tier Xenoblade.

Props to Harry McEntire for really pulling off his scenes as Noah and N too.

Should you be here if you haven't finished the game? I mean it's fine if you're aware and you just don't care, but just pointing out that this is the spoiler thread

 

[JR436]

Should you be here if you haven't finished the game? I mean it's fine if you're aware and you just don't care, but just pointing out that this is the spoiler thread

Nah. I spoilt the broad strokes for myself a while back.

The main Xeno 3 thread basically had a couple of pages insinuating as to the quality of the ending, so I figured I should just jump in and see what's occurring - so as to soften any potential blow.

It's my fault for caving of course. But I won't lie, having numerous posts essentially go "hmm, not sure about the ending, but I'll take it to the spoiler thread" did my absolute head in.