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News Nintendo is suing the creators of popular Switch emulator Yuzu. They claim TOTK was pirated over 1 million times before release

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Mekanos said:
I doubt Nintendo has much of a case here, given legal precedent on emulation. But we'll see.
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It only takes one judge to disagree with past rulings to overturn legal precedent. It's especially true in a case like this if Nintendo can show a pattern of hyped Switch game is about to come out? Yuzu patreon increases alongside people downloading pirated copies of the game.

This of course assumes Yuzu can afford to fight this for years.
 
My initial thought is this is less about the emulator itself, and more about how the Emulator has been able to stay afloat over time via the Patreon with the Yuzu team in general. I feel Nintendo may have a case here, and at the minimum, might force Patreon itself to act, and cancel the Yuzu Team's account, and at worst, the whole Yuzu emulator dies because of the Patreon account.

Maybe I'm not understanding this correctly, but that was my first impression. Because as far as I can work out, the Yuzu team are still profiting off of an emulator for a system that is still well alive today. Though on the flip side, I believe other Emulators out there have "donation" pages, so maybe the precedent is more about profiting off of software that is designed to circumvent official means. But then that also gets into the realm of emulators themselves, which yes, have had precedent in defense of emulators being deemed legal (Take a look at the now infamous Bleem! emulator for Dreamcast), but it's not something codified into law either last I remember.

I don't know though. This a strange one in multiple ways, and I'm curious more than anything how it'll ultimately play out.
 
Lame move by Nintendo. Go after pirates/distribution rather than the emulators themselves (although I do get the moral gray area of profiting off of emulator development).
 
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Yeah. That 1 million figure is not good.

When you're hyped up for one of the most awaited games ever knowing you can be playing it in 30m for free, and keep seeing tons of posts from people who are enjoying it already... it's just a matter of willpower.

I don't know what the solution is but to keep ignoring these issues isn't good either. The devaluing of games doesn't come out of thin air, and once you convince someone they can get something for free, it's hard to go back. I know people who have barely bought games since they started pirating.
 
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ns156 said:
Ultimately, the emulator is free, right? The patron versions are just early access releases? Plus, you're buying the emulator, not any stolen code or ROMs. I still think it's a hard case to win.
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Even then you can easily find the early access releases on github because it's open source. I didn't even know the early access builds were intended to be Patreon exclusive because of this, lol.
 
bbymetroid said:
Yeah. That 1 million figure is not good.

When you're hyped up for one of the most awaited games ever knowing you can be playing it in 30m for free, and keep seeing tons of posts from a million people who are enjoying it already... it's just a matter of willpower.

I don't know what the solution is but to keep ignoring these issues isn't good either. The devaluing of games doesn't come out of thin air, and once you convince someone they can get something for free, it's hard to go back. I know people who have barely bought games since they started pirating.
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Do we know if that 1 million figure is specific to Yuzu, however? How many of those just had hacked Switches and ran TotK that way.

I imagine that would be the majority, tbh. Getting hardware good enough to run TotK decently isn't cheap.
 
About time, honestly. The past judgements/precedent are outdated in the world of mass pre-release pirating, social media and platforms like Patreon making it a profitable career rather than a scrappy hobbyist community enjoying themselves.
 
hologram said:
But people are paying them for the emulator, not the ROMs. It's not their problem if people use their software for illegal means IMO
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You're technically correct, but Nintendo does have a point saying that Patreon donations increased during the "TOTK hack" is proving that people are using the software for piracy. As annoying as it is for devs, when you make an emulator (which, like, we know why most people use them) you have to refrain from asking money for it, that's the best way to get you sued and also for the companies suing you to prove that your software is used for piracy.

I hope Nintendo does not win this, but I also think it'd be wiser for people making emulators to not make emulators for systems that are currently exploited.
 
BassForever said:
It only takes one judge to disagree with past rulings to overturn legal precedent. It's especially true in a case like this if Nintendo can show a pattern of hyped Switch game is about to come out? Yuzu patreon increases alongside people downloading pirated copies of the game.

This of course assumes Yuzu can afford to fight this for years.
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I mean....if Yuzu really thinks they can win this they can always use the Patreon for legal fees too I guess
 
ns156 said:
Do we know if that 1 million figure is specific to Yuzu, however? How many of those just had hacked Switches and ran TotK that way.

I imagine that would be the majority, tbh. Getting hardware good enough to run TotK decently isn't cheap.
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That's up to Nintendo to prove in court, but it's not hard to believe lots of people were pirating.
 
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Happy to see just about everyone here being on the same page when it comes to this lawsuit. Emulators have been protected in court (which is the objectively correct ruling on the matter) and a win for Nintendo here sets an absolutely terrible precedent for emulators in the future, especially given Nintendo's draconian nature against emulation.
 
Strollin Stu said:
Happy to see just about everyone here being on the same page when it comes to this lawsuit. Emulators have been protected in court (which is the objectively correct ruling on the matter) and a win for Nintendo here sets an absolutely terrible precedent for emulators in the future, especially given Nintendo's draconian nature against emulation.
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If they win here, don't think for one minute they won't go after Dolphin either.

Would be terrible all around.
 
Project64's been much more in your face about asking for donations and it's been fine even though it's terrible. Was also being made when N64 games were still being released.
This feels like a scare tactic honestly, especially considering every single bit of legal precedent over emulation has been against Nintendo's view here. I really hope they don't win, cause this could cause MAJOR consequences, even for not pirates. Like, say goodbye to the chance of Mega Man Legends Legacy Collection, Capcom you can't emulate PS1 games on platforms not owned by Sony!

And in the end, this would not even affect pirates really. They're already illegally downloading, why would they care if emulators become illegal. They'd just become the only people to do it.
 
Lugia667 said:
I mean....if Yuzu really thinks they can win this they can always use the Patreon for legal fees too I guess
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You need a LOT of money to fight a company like Nintendo, I imagine very few lawyers will do it for cheap. If you use the patreon money for legal that means less is used on development which slows down updates and risks you losing people who just want to play their games.
 
I very much doubt they have a case here but I could see the patreon stuff doing the Yuzu team in (or this just being an intimidation tactic). If they actually win this one... absolute clusterfuck.
 
Party Sklar said:
You're technically correct, but Nintendo does have a point saying that Patreon donations increased during the "TOTK hack" is proving that people are using the software for piracy. As annoying as it is for devs, when you make an emulator (which, like, we know why most people use them) you have to refrain from asking money for it, that's the best way to get you sued and also for the companies suing you to prove that your software is used for piracy.

I hope Nintendo does not win this, but I also think it'd be wiser for people making emulators to not make emulators for systems that are currently exploited.
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I got the impression they at least waited for Totk release date to start working on it. But maybe my memory is failing me.
At least, on the initial days, people were using some community patches to fix some of the glitches. I remember getting really surprised by the amount of people around me that was able to run the game without necessarily being tech savvy.
 
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JazzyFuture said:
Project64's been much more in your face about asking for donations and it's been fine even though it's terrible. Was also being made when N64 games were still being released.
This feels like a scare tactic honestly, especially considering every single bit of legal precedent over emulation has been against Nintendo's view here. I really hope they don't win, cause this could cause MAJOR consequences, even for not pirates. Like, say goodbye to the chance of Mega Man Legends Legacy Collection, Capcom you can't emulate PS1 games on platforms not owned by Sony!
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I think this is jumping a step, odds are the ruling would be "unauthorized emulation is illegal", which would hurt hobbyist but not companies that make their own "legal" emulation tools.
 
No way this is gonna go anywhere, just a scare tactic like everything else they do. Seriously hope I’m right, would hate to see the (realistically) only way switch games are going to be preserved to be lost
 
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bbymetroid said:
Yeah. That 1 million figure is not good.

When you're hyped up for one of the most awaited games ever knowing you can be playing it in 30m for free, and keep seeing tons of posts from a million people who are enjoying it already... it's just a matter of willpower.

I don't know what the solution is but to keep ignoring these issues isn't good either. The devaluing of games doesn't come out of thin air, and once you convince someone they can get something for free, it's hard to go back. I know people who have barely bought games since they started pirating.
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The thing is, how can they prove any damage?
How accurate is the 1 million downloads?
  • What if some of those 1m haven't even booted the game?
  • What if there are multiple downloads by the same person?
  • How many people already had TotK preordered?
  • How many people decided to buy the game after downloading and playing it?
  • How many people were not going to buy the game no matter what?
  • How many people are able to buy the game (whether being able to afford it, or whether it's even being sold in their region. There is a huge chunk of the world where Nintendo games aren't being sold, including having an eshop)
We need to keep in mind that piracy isn't as simple as "I'll pirate this because it's free/I'm cheap". Of course these types of people are there as well.

Edit: I forgot to even mention what is probably the important part: Yuzu has nothing to do with TotK being downloaded online. They didn't advertise it, they didn't support it, or mention it or whatever. The game got leaked, someone uploaded it and it spread fast. Yuzu would argue that the emulator is about playing the games you ripped yourself. I think they also don't use any code that Nintendo owns.
 
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Ahmed said:
The thing is, how can they prove any damage?
How accurate is the 1 million downloads?
  • What if some of those 1m haven't even booted the game?
  • What if there are multiple downloads by the same person?
  • How many people already had TotK preordered?
  • How many people decided to buy the game after downloading and playing it?
  • How many people were not going to buy the game no matter what?
  • How many people are able to buy the game (whether being able to afford it, or whether it's even being sold in their region. There is a huge chunk of the world where Nintendo games aren't being sold, including having an eshop)
We need to keep in mind that piracy isn't as simple as "I'll pirate this because it's free/I'm cheap". Of course these types of people are there as well.
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Of note

  • What if some of those 1m haven't even booted the game? - Doesn't matter, the damage is done when the download happens. How many of the 20 million buyers never played it either?
  • What if there are multiple downloads by the same person? - Doesn't matter, someone could have bought multiple copies.
  • How many people already had TotK preordered? - Doesn't matter, their pre ordered copy isn't the same as the copy they downloaded.
  • How many people decided to buy the game after downloading and playing it? - Doesn't matter, they still illegally downloaded it. You can't rob a bank then go back and say "actually I just meant to do a withdrawal"
  • How many people were not going to buy the game no matter what? - This is irrelevant, regardless of if they planned to buy it or not, they still stole a digital copy.
  • How many people are able to buy the game (whether being able to afford it, or whether it's even being sold in their region. There is a huge chunk of the world where Nintendo games aren't being sold, including having an eshop) - This really doesn't matter, Nintendo has a right to sell things where they want, that doesn't give you the right to steal them.
 
ns156 said:
Do we know if that 1 million figure is specific to Yuzu, however? How many of those just had hacked Switches and ran TotK that way.

I imagine that would be the majority, tbh. Getting hardware good enough to run TotK decently isn't cheap.
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This was before the game even released. So this is a huge argument for them. Point in their favor. That piracy is indeed rampant.
 
Ahmed said:
The thing is, how can they prove any damage?
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BassForever said:
Of note

  • What if some of those 1m haven't even booted the game? - Doesn't matter, the damage is done when the download happens. How many of the 20 million buyers never played it either?
  • What if there are multiple downloads by the same person? - Doesn't matter, someone could have bought multiple copies.
  • How many people already had TotK preordered? - Doesn't matter, their pre ordered copy isn't the same as the copy they downloaded.
  • How many people decided to buy the game after downloading and playing it? - Doesn't matter, they still illegally downloaded it. You can't rob a bank then go back and say "actually I just meant to do a withdrawal"
  • How many people were not going to buy the game no matter what? - This is irrelevant, regardless of if they planned to buy it or not, they still stole a digital copy.
  • How many people are able to buy the game (whether being able to afford it, or whether it's even being sold in their region. There is a huge chunk of the world where Nintendo games aren't being sold, including having an eshop) - This really doesn't matter, Nintendo has a right to sell things where they want, that doesn't give you the right to steal them.
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I mean in the end it's all for the court to decide (if it even gets that far)
 
If you can't sue a gun manufacturer for the wrongful deaths of a person misusing a gun, then you shouldn't be able to sue a software developer for the wrongful use of their software.
 
If Yuzu was innocent and had ethics, they would have delayed the releases of the emulator builds for popular games until the official release dates of said games.

Instead, they rush to get a compatible build out as soon as possible and then court obvious pirates by boasting on social media whenever a game is day <0 compatible just for the sake of more Patreon subscribers.

Gaining access to a game early is probably the #1 cause for piracy these days. I mean, people pay 30€ extra just to play a popular game a week, or sometimes only a weekend early.

Hard to feel sympathy for that.
 
Beansy said:
If you can't sue a gun manufacturer for the wrongful deaths of a person misusing a gun, then you shouldn't be able to sue a software developer for the wrongful use of their software.
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Okay but what about when said gun company starts advertising their guns by how effective they have been at the recent school shootings?
 
BassForever said:
I think this is jumping a step, odds are the ruling would be "unauthorized emulation is illegal", which would hurt hobbyist but not companies that make their own "legal" emulation tools.
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A lot of commercial emulation has been built off of the backs of the hobbyists. Even Nintendo's. Animal Crossing's NES games, the GBA Classic NES series, and even later the NES virtual console use the files that they do cause one of the people that worked on an unofficial NES emulator joined Nintendo.
 
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Puikko said:
If Yuzu was innocent and had ethics, they would have delayed the releases of the emulator builds for popular games until the official release dates of said games.

Instead, they rush to get a compatible build out as soon as possible and then court obvious pirates by boasting on social media whenever a game is day <0 compatible just for the sake of more Patreon subscribers.

Gaining access to a game early is probably the #1 cause for piracy these days. I mean, people pay 30€ extra just to play a popular game a week, or sometimes only a weekend early.

Hard to feel sympathy for that.
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They did though. I remember they repeatedly banned people from their discord for asking about TotK before the game was out. TotK wasn't running well on it officially until a bit after launch.
 
neil said:
The definition is 100% correct, it doesn’t say that’s exclusively what it does
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While it could be logically correct it's obvious that it isn't written in good faith. I mean, if you want to sue a blender manufacturer because you lost your finger during use it doesn't feel right to start the case saying that a blender is a machine that allows people to lose their finger. It doesn't cause a good impression.
Especially when your own company uses one, showing that you're aware about the main reason why this kind of software exists and is just trying to deceive whoever is reading the case.
 
BassForever said:
Of note

  • What if some of those 1m haven't even booted the game? - Doesn't matter, the damage is done when the download happens. How many of the 20 million buyers never played it either?
  • What if there are multiple downloads by the same person? - Doesn't matter, someone could have bought multiple copies.
  • How many people already had TotK preordered? - Doesn't matter, their pre ordered copy isn't the same as the copy they downloaded.
  • How many people decided to buy the game after downloading and playing it? - Doesn't matter, they still illegally downloaded it. You can't rob a bank then go back and say "actually I just meant to do a withdrawal"
  • How many people were not going to buy the game no matter what? - This is irrelevant, regardless of if they planned to buy it or not, they still stole a digital copy.
  • How many people are able to buy the game (whether being able to afford it, or whether it's even being sold in their region. There is a huge chunk of the world where Nintendo games aren't being sold, including having an eshop) - This really doesn't matter, Nintendo has a right to sell things where they want, that doesn't give you the right to steal them.
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Everything you said still wouldn't prove any damage Nintendo has suffered. Those arguments wouldn't hold in court (of course neither do mine I imagine). But it's up to Nintendo to prove things in court.

You also can't compare digital goods with physical in this case.

Lugia667 said:
I mean in the end it's all for the court to decide (if it even gets that far)
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Yeah, that's what matters. But I was just thinking out loud how Nintendo could argue that the 1 million downloads is the damage they've suffered. But that's never the case with piracy, not in any type of entertainment media.
We'll see how Yuzu responds soon I hope.
 
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Beansy said:
If you can't sue a gun manufacturer for the wrongful deaths of a person misusing a gun, then you shouldn't be able to sue a software developer for the wrongful use of their software.
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it's...complicated

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Under the 2005 Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, gun manufacturers cannot be held liable for the use of their products in a crime. However, gun manufacturers can still be held liable for (and thus sued for) a range of things, including negligence, breach of contract regarding the purchase of a gun, or certain damages from defects in the design of a gun.

In 2019, the Supreme Court allowed a lawsuit against gun manufacturer Remington Arms Company to continue. The plaintiffs, a survivor and families of nine other victims of the Sandy Hook Elementary School mass shooting, are attempting to hold the company, which manufactured the semi-automatic rifle that was used in the killing, partly responsible by targeting the company's marketing practices, another area where gun manufacturers can be held liable.
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Also that's due to a very specific gun law. If emulators had their own legislation things would be more clear
 
Emulators don't have to release updates for every game that releases. IIRC, the game ran near perfectly when it leaked, so that argument is moot. There were some issues with the depths, and they released updates for that, which they might be able to argue against. But that then becomes an issue of software support and a developer's obligation for support for a product that others have purchased. If people buy a product and find that product to be faulty or defective and then refund it, the devs often have to eat the loss. So a developer then has to worry about supporting themself by stopping these refunds.
 
VintoWin said:
This was before the game even released. So this is a huge argument for them. Point in their favor. That piracy is indeed rampant.
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Yes, people with hacked Switches ran it before the game's release, because street vendors broke the release date and distributed the game ROM online. Nothing to do with Yuzu there.
 
What they could do is remove all unofficial emulators and support with shared piracy and provide an official emulation support. Idk lol Like that would happen.
ns156 said:
Yes, people with hacked Switches ran it before the game's release, because street vendors broke the release date and distributed the game ROM online. Nothing to do with Yuzu there.
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Yeah, but Nintendo just wants to prove that emulators are used for piracy for the most part and are doing more harm than good. It's their only way to control the situation.
 
VintoWin said:
Yeah, but Nintendo just wants to prove that emulators are used for piracy for the most part and are doing more harm than good. It's their only way to control the situation.
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Nintendo is also saying that hacking your system and ripping your own games is illegal though. They are trying whatever they can to take down emulation, and it's not because of harm (well okay, it kinda is). It's about them thinking they'd make more money if emulation didn't exist. In the end it's all corporate stuff, though I can't deny that piracy is still wrong in many ways.
 
Ahmed said:
The thing is, how can they prove any damage?
How accurate is the 1 million downloads?
  • What if some of those 1m haven't even booted the game?
  • What if there are multiple downloads by the same person?
  • How many people already had TotK preordered?
  • How many people decided to buy the game after downloading and playing it?
  • How many people were not going to buy the game no matter what?
  • How many people are able to buy the game (whether being able to afford it, or whether it's even being sold in their region. There is a huge chunk of the world where Nintendo games aren't being sold, including having an eshop)
We need to keep in mind that piracy isn't as simple as "I'll pirate this because it's free/I'm cheap". Of course these types of people are there as well.
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Again, that's for Nintendo to prove and the court to decide.

I'm not concerned about the legality, but the reality of it.
  • People pirate
  • People who can afford games also pirate (regardless of percentage)
  • A lot of people pirated Tears of the Kingdom before it was released.
  • An emulator that makes it easy to run without needing a Switch is enticing.
  • People, especially kids, are getting more tech savvy and computers are more widespread
  • Games from a current console being emulated are more enticing than old ones
  • Having something easily available for free makes the paid alternative less attractive (how easy it is now is a point of debate)
  • Piracy helps Yuzu increase its profits
I think these are all pretty safe things to agree upon.

As for the old "how many of those people would have gotten the game", we'll never get a clear answer.
You can't make an inquiry about it, as most people would avoid replying and don't even truly know if they would've bought it because they weren't put in that position. It's a hypothetical.

At some point we have to consider the possibility that it does have some impact.
I've seen people start separating games worth buying and games worth pirating. Saying something is too expensive, has a creative choice they don't like or that the developers "aren't worthy" so they'll just pirate.

Paying becomes a gift instead of a transaction, you're being generous and kind by doing it.
It's a messy can of worms.
 
This feels like an intimidation tactic that will get settled out of court.

I do hope it doesn't go to a serious ruling regardless of how much it seems like Nintendo has no case. I do not want to see the chance of emulator wide ramifications. Our current grey area is fine.
 
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I've always highly doubted anyone who claims to buy the game they pirate, as I know I certainly wouldn't/haven't in the past. So if Nintendo wins, people only have themselves to blame.
 
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rickyson33 said:
definitely feels like Switch emulation is far too prominent for it's own good

it's just so....out in the open every time a big release is about to come out
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It does feel like it's gotten only more brazen after 2022. Like, it was always common, but then you started getting really open defiance against Nintendo on youtube and plenty of other places. And then there were videos that openly mocked Nintendo; like poking a demon.
 
So 1 million downloads already today, i understand why Nintendo is shitting themselves. Imagine in 5 years the next Zelda game could get downloaded 5 million times before release due to the growth of PC gaming will naturally also lead to a growth in emulation.

I would argue that emulation is a bigger threat to Nintendo in the future than Sony, Microsoft and other hardware makers are combined.
 
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