It was definitely them clutching at straws trying to reverse the position they put themselves in. It was never gonna work in the original timeframe or even a good strategy in general.Launching a GAAS-based game to immediate success is like trying to play roulette, and Sony put far too many chips on different numbers on the wheel.
Yeah, Helldivers is popular, but the same can't be said for every other GAAS title Sony devs have worked on. Naughty Dog spun their wheels for years on a TLOU GAAS game that they ended up scrapping. And it wouldn't surprise me if the ND layoffs announced today involved mostly if not entirely people that worked on it.
Hahahahahaha fuck you.These decisions have been extremely difficult, but they are necessary,
Also perhaps coincidentally on the same day as a big Pokémon announcement.....isn't it also kinda messed up that they did they the same day as FF released? An attempt to bury the news perhaps?
I think what they mean is that while Sony is a Japanese company, the PlayStation division of Sony is effectively American af this point. Jim Ryan reorganized the entire PS business, shuttered Japan Studio, put Hermen Hulst in charge of PlayStation Studios, and has generally made the entire division his fiefdom.
It was under him, and Hulst, that all of Sony's first party studios began pursuing either AAA cinematic games that cost a zillion dollars, or GAAS liveservice titles that are always a gamble to begin with.
Their leadership is incompetent and their culture is toxic. And it all ties back to Ryan being put in charge.
All we really know is that Totoki is a bean counter, but also Sony HQ can't possibly be in any way happy with the current direction of PlayStation. PlayStation at one point almost singlehandedly kept Sony afloat at a point when the rest of their electronics were floundering and their movies were flailing. Now PlayStation is barely breaking even for itself. So I'd be shocked if they don't enact some larger structural upheaval to unscrew what Ryan screwed.I understood, but I was pointing out that the man sent to SIE by Sony to oversee change and name the next successor for the branch is Totoki.
Are we to expect any positive changes from a bean counter who's a bigger bean counter than Jim Ryan?
This is a man who came in and the first thing that came out of his mouth is obsession with growth and profit margins.
What is he really going to change in a positive manner from our perspective?
I have to push back on zillion dollar games slightly, this was already in motion during the PS4 era starting starting with and reinforced due to the runaway success of pretty much every blockbuster SIE game starting with Uncharted 4 in 2016.
HZD in 2017
GoW and Spider-Man 1 in 2018
Days Gone in 2019 was a stumble from a critical reception but not a commercial failure
GoT and TLoU Part II were 2020
And if you look at the smaller games that did get released by SIE during those times, I'm fairly sure most of them were loss leaders or barely broke even. The PlayStation consumers rejected those games.
Launching a GAAS-based game to immediate success is like trying to play roulette, and Sony put far too many chips on different numbers on the wheel.
Yeah, Helldivers is popular, but the same can't be said for every other GAAS title Sony devs have worked on. Naughty Dog spun their wheels for years on a TLOU GAAS game that they ended up scrapping. And it wouldn't surprise me if the ND layoffs announced today involved mostly if not entirely people that worked on it.
PS5P is a done deal at this point considering they want it to allegedly come out this year. These layoffs will most likely target the software side as we can see from those who are being affected. When it comes to revenue/profit, 5Pro will probably continue from the latest financials of Sony; that is to say a high cost device that is hard to cost down with thin margins.So I have a question, does this "restructuring" with all these layoffs have any effect on the PS5 Pro? Or is that a done deal regardless? I guess my point is if Sony is doing all these things right now, how does that bode for a PS5 Pro?
Might be two different situations here, but if they're that concerned about their revenue/profits, how does the PS5 Pro fit into that?
It is a shame. Dreams didn't take off, Concrete Genie didn't do so hot, and Japan Studio never got a big win aside from Bloodborne (which was a co-production with From Software). Sackboy didn't seem like it took off either.I understood, but I was pointing out that the man sent to SIE by Sony to oversee change and name the next successor for the branch is Totoki.
Are we to expect any positive changes from a bean counter who's a bigger bean counter than Jim Ryan?
This is a man who came in and the first thing that came out of his mouth is obsession with growth and profit margins.
What is he really going to change in a positive manner from our perspective?
I have to push back on zillion dollar games slightly, this was already in motion during the PS4 era and reinforced due to the runaway success of pretty much every blockbuster SIE game starting with Uncharted 4 in 2016.
HZD in 2017
GoW and Spider-Man 1 in 2018
Days Gone in 2019 was a stumble from a critical reception but not a commercial failure
GoT and TLoU Part II were 2020
And if you look at the smaller games that did get released by SIE during those times, I'm fairly sure most of them were loss leaders or barely broke even. The PlayStation consumers rejected those games.
....isn't it also kinda messed up that they did they the same day as FF released? An attempt to bury the news perhaps?
And if you look at the smaller games that did get released by SIE during those times, I'm fairly sure most of them were loss leaders or barely broke even. The PlayStation consumers rejected those games.
Interesting Sony and MS have similar but different issues - MS trained their audience not to buy games and Sony trained theirs to only purchase huge budget blockbusters and expect multiple of them every yearBecause Sony trained their audience to be treated as throwaway stuff that they weren't interested in supporting long term.
Nintendo just made a new Endless Ocean the big endcard on their big quarterly (well, thirdly) advertising for the season. Sony would do that over their dead body, and that's the difference between the companies. Nintendo realised two decades ago the power race wasn't sustainable, and not just from the hardware side. They realised that developing a continuous supply of smaller titles was incredibly important to keeping audiences engaged where ever possible because the big BOTW/TOTK tentpoles can only come every half a decade and you need to keep them engaged in those big inbetween periods.
Sony instead did their best to make sure their smaller titles couldn't even begin to build an audience, doing things like only supporting the online functions of titles like Gravity rush for months after launch, because they had no interest in even trying to keep titles like that alive. Now the company is reaping what it sowed in terms of their bottom line, and it's hurting their employees instead of the ones who made those decisions.
Given how quickly things can change, I'm weary of believing that Nintendo will remain one of the exceptions to this trend.
I hope they do, because fucking hell it would be nice to see one of the big three not feel the need to balance the books through layoffs.
There's a difference between being part of Nintendo proper and a third party that Nintendo works with on specific projects. Alpha Dream didn't die because Nintendo didn't bail them out. They died because they were completely unprepared for a transition to HD dev, the Mario & Luigi series had stagnated, and their PS4 game failed to get off the ground.Nintendo has absurd profit ratios and a massive amount of cash on hand that other companies "reinvest", specifically so that this will never be their problem.
They made it through the Wii U without ever having to do layoffs, it's not a real concern anyone should have regarding if Nintendo will have to do the same.
(That being said they've definitely let weaker partners that they were essentially the lifeline for go, ala Cing or Alphadream, so they're not as completely blame free as some might thing)
There's a difference between being part of Nintendo proper and a third party that Nintendo works with on specific projects. Alpha Dream didn't die because Nintendo didn't bail them out. They died because they were completely unprepared for a transition to HD dev, the Mario & Luigi series had stagnated, and their PS4 game failed to get off the ground.
Nintendo buying or putting significant investment into every small studio they work with would have its own drawbacks.
It was never Nintendo's responsibility to recruit or staff up AD for HD dev, or to perform any other corporate admin tasks that were the responsibility of AD's leadership.Right, they didn't technically do anything, and certainly they were under no legal obligations to do so, but Alphadream at the time of the studios closure had effectively been working for Nintendo practically exclusively for something like fifteen years. They certainly didn't have any explicit responsibility to make sure the company stayed open, but that's only on paper. They made the decision to bring their working relationship to an end, likely based on the limited success of their later projects, and the reality is that making that business decision would have been the primary thing to lead to the studios doors shuttering and there's no reason to pretend they're blameless for not intervening sooner like they perhaps could have. The PS4 game would have been a last ditch effort when it became clear that their relation with Nintendo was at an end
Nintendo refused to keep their working relationship going (i.e., bail them out) because they didn't think the company was worth the investment for them to be able to make the transition to HD dev, and they were probably right from a business perspective, but that doesn't make it so different to Sony deciding to no longer invest in, say the VR development team at London studio.
All I was saying is Nintendo isn't completely above making this same kind of harsh decision, even if thankfully they avoid it in most cases.
doesn't Japan actually have laws preventing mass layoffs unless things are REALLY bad? I've noticed that the Japanese companies doing layoffs have all done it with their western divisionsGiven how quickly things can change, I'm weary of believing that Nintendo will remain one of the exceptions to this trend.
I hope they do, because fucking hell it would be nice to see one of the big three not feel the need to balance the books through layoffs.
The two cases aren’t the ‘same kind of harsh decision’ at all. There’s a huge difference between a multinational laying off hundreds of their own staff that were working on the projects they were told to, only for the service game bubble to seem to have burst, and not bailing out an independent third party developer that’s free to pitch for whatever projects on whatever platforms it wants to do.Right, they didn't technically do anything, and certainly they were under no legal obligations to do so, but Alphadream at the time of the studios closure had effectively been working for Nintendo practically exclusively for something like fifteen years. They certainly didn't have any explicit responsibility to make sure the company stayed open, but that's only on paper. They made the decision to bring their working relationship to an end, likely based on the limited success of their later projects, and the reality is that making that business decision would have been the primary thing to lead to the studios doors shuttering and there's no reason to pretend they're blameless for not intervening sooner like they perhaps could have. The PS4 game would have been a last ditch effort when it became clear that their relation with Nintendo was at an end
Nintendo refused to keep their working relationship going (i.e., bail them out) because they didn't think the company was worth the investment for them to be able to make the transition to HD dev, and they were probably right from a business perspective, but that doesn't make it so different to Sony deciding to no longer invest in, say the VR development team at London studio.
All I was saying is Nintendo isn't completely above making this same kind of harsh decision, even if thankfully they avoid it in most cases.
Fucking deplorable.
Look at the smile on his face knowing full well he’s about to upend every one of their lives. Look how happy he is.
Absolutely nauseating.
Please, tell me what is not evil about taking a smiling happy picture around a bunch of people whose lives you know full well you’re days away from upending. Please tell me what’s not evil about that. Tell me how any human with an ounce of sympathy for their fellow human, that hasn’t had their very human nature completely wrecked by capitalistic ideals of the myth of “neverending quarterly growth of shareholder value” would be so happy to take a picture like this. Please tell me.Not everything has to be so evil. C'mon.
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On one hand, I'm happy they're leaving/cutting down live service games. But at the same time it's sad to see so many people affected.
AlphaDream also went bankrupt because they stuck to the 3DS and did those pretty awful remasters of Superstar Saga and BiS, both of which screwed up the original visual identity of the game and were released not just in the twilight year of the 3DS but in the goddamn nocturnal year.There's a difference between being part of Nintendo proper and a third party that Nintendo works with on specific projects. Alpha Dream didn't die because Nintendo didn't bail them out. They died because they were completely unprepared for a transition to HD dev, the Mario & Luigi series had stagnated, and their PS4 game failed to get off the ground.
Nintendo buying or putting significant investment into every small studio they work with would have its own drawbacks.
doesn't Japan actually have laws preventing mass layoffs unless things are REALLY bad? I've noticed that the Japanese companies doing layoffs have all done it with their western divisions
Yeah you need to establish financial trouble and that you've attempted literally anything that didn't involve laying off people before you can do mass layoffs in Japan. The unions also get a say in the process and there's a 30 day required severance. If any of those things aren't met, the courts just declare the termination invalid and it doesn't apply.doesn't Japan actually have laws preventing mass layoffs unless things are REALLY bad? I've noticed that the Japanese companies doing layoffs have all done it with their western divisions
Iirc Nintendo did have some layoffs in Nintendo of Europe in 2014 for an example.
Jokes on them.Also perhaps coincidentally on the same day as a big Pokémon announcement.
They have been closing one studio per year...MM will likely be closed within the next year
MM will likely be closed within the next year
Sony will chase the next trend anyway, and then when those don't pan out, lay off even more people in all likelihood. Whole AAA industry feels like it's falling apart at the seams. I don't expect what comes next to be any healthier, sadly.I hated some reactions to this online. “Yay, no more live service games” Like, ok... But at what cost? It’s not labor we’re talking about, there’s now another 900 PEOPLE unfortunately joining the shit storm that’s this decade’s layoff epidemic, I feel for them
I’m hoping they don’t follow Square into scam currency experimentsSony will chase the next trend anyway, and then when those don't pan out, lay off even more people in all likelihood. Whole AAA industry feels like it's falling apart at the seams. I don't expect what comes next to be any healthier, sadly.
Can't believe it was only a few months ago when people were salivating at the idea of Sony purchasing Square Enix in retaliation of the Activision Blizzard acquisition.I’m hoping they don’t follow Square into scam currency experiments