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Discussion Zelda TotK and Super Mario Bros: Wonder developer talk coming to GDC 2024 (UPDATE: The talk available on the website, check threadmark)

Reader mode
Lozjam said:
I don't think anyone is saying anything of that sort. Of course, you can make a huge amount of differing experiences with the same engine. However, these games being on the same engine will make it easier to implement better quality technology into any game. Meaning it will be a lot easier to just drag and drop any system from TotK into any game.

For example, Super Mario Wonder has absolutely amazing sound effects, from proximity based music, to music connected to characters, to interactive soundtracks, to really impressive reverb based on area. I would not be surprised if they took TotK's sound system, and just plopped it in there, and made some tweaks to have it suit Mario wonder.
Click to expand...
I don‘t disagree there. Especially for the technical side of things. Though they are mostly "invisible" and interfere little with concrete Game Logic.

I don‘t think it would be necessarily true for your example. From what I read in that IGN article the systems for sound implemented in TOTK are very specifically tailored for it being a heavy physics based Open World Game.

Super Mario Wonder on the other hand delivers a more controlled experience, so they just don‘t need such an extensive system I imagine. I mean environment sounds and adaptive music could be directly tied to manually placed markers within the level, you would have no use for the crazy voxel based system from Zelda for that. It‘s not like you are moving through a wide open 3D space.
 
Lozjam said:
For example, Super Mario Wonder has absolutely amazing sound effects, from proximity based music, to music connected to characters, to interactive soundtracks, to really impressive reverb based on area. I would not be surprised if they took TotK's sound system, and just plopped it in there, and made some tweaks to have it suit Mario wonder.
Click to expand...
I doubt it; Wonder's not suitable for anything voxel-based. Most of the features you're describing aren't really related to TotK's sound system.
 
They say that if you could perfectly simulate every particle interaction in the universe, then you can predict the future. No one would have expected that it would be some programmers working on a Zelda videogame who'd be the ones make that simulation.
 
Re. Engine talk

Breath of the Wild was built in an engine called KingSystem, and it seems ModuleSystem is a combination of that and Lunchpack 2. KingSystem itself was probably largely built from scratch for Breath of the Wild and was a clean break from the previous custom engine used for Zelda. Given how EPD works, it makes sense they consolidated their more recent game engines.
 
lexony said:
I don‘t disagree there. Especially for the technical side of things. Though they are mostly "invisible" and interfere little with concrete Game Logic.

I don‘t think it would be necessarily true for your example. From what I read in that IGN article the systems for sound implemented in TOTK are very specifically tailored for it being a heavy physics based Open World Game.

Super Mario Wonder on the other hand delivers a more controlled experience, so they just don‘t need such an extensive system I imagine. I mean environment sounds and adaptive music could be directly tied to manually placed markers within the level, you would have no use for the crazy voxel based system from Zelda for that. It‘s not like you are moving through a wide open 3D space.
Click to expand...
Jersh said:
I doubt it; Wonder's not suitable for anything voxel-based. Most of the features you're describing aren't really related to TotK's sound system.
Click to expand...
I really don't think it is voxel based specifically. What matters to the end user is quality, but it appears to be very adaptable. The sound engine seems to be much inherently more adaptable than any previous Nintendo engine. It is important to note that every single game that uses the Module Engine has far better sound compatibilities than any single Nintendo game that came before. Splatoon 3 has much more accurate player located sound effects, along with far higher quality. Nintendo Switch sports does some very interesting thing with its music, from real room rendering for its music and sound effects. Where the sound effects actually use close to real life reverb, compared to the room. To even cool effects like making it seem like music is coming from a speaker in a room. To what I have said with Mario Wonder.

We are seeing a huge upgrade in how Nintendo handles sound compared to previous titles. We have had dynamic soundtracks and simple reverb ever since Super Mario World, but Nintendo is clearly taking it to the next level with their current and upcoming titles.
 
HockeyBird said:
They say that if you could perfectly simulate every particle interaction in the universe, then you can predict the future.
Click to expand...

Completely irrelevant to the actual discussion but I'll chime in nonetheless, even if you could simulate every particle interaction you still couldn't predict the future because there's an inherent randomness to behaviours at the quantum level that would be different in your simulation than reality as a result, and it'd spiral
In to something wildly different basically immediately
 
Linkstrikesback said:
Completely irrelevant to the actual discussion but I'll chime in nonetheless, even if you could simulate every particle interaction you still couldn't predict the future because there's an inherent randomness to behaviours at the quantum level that would be different in your simulation than reality as a result, and it'd spiral
In to something wildly different basically immediately
Click to expand...
Also:
Nicolas Cage said:
Here is the thing about the future. Every time you look at, it changes, because you looked at it.
Click to expand...
 
Linkstrikesback said:
Completely irrelevant to the actual discussion but I'll chime in nonetheless, even if you could simulate every particle interaction you still couldn't predict the future because there's an inherent randomness to behaviours at the quantum level that would be different in your simulation than reality as a result, and it'd spiral
In to something wildly different basically immediately
Click to expand...

That's why I said perfectly simulate. A perfect simulation, as impossible at is sounds, would account to what we perceive as randomness. Our understanding of particle physics in incomplete since we have yet to rectify it with general relativity so we need a much deeper understanding of particles if we have ever to create to perfect simulation. But that's something for the Zelda team to figure out.
 
Jersh said:
Does it? Splatoon 2 always felt really accurate on my 5.1 setup
Click to expand...
Yes, all you really need to do to verify is actually by walking around the square now(Its a splatfest now and its probably the best noticable time to hear it). You can hear really amazing dynamic sound where different sound effects, in world music, and the other inklings all collide with each other. There are multiple layers of sound effects all coming together in a way that it never did in Splatoon 2.

If you do not want to take the time to do it, listen closely to Splatoon 2 gameplay vs. 3

You can hear your teammates shots from much farther away, you can hear your enemies from farther away. You also have the doppler effect going on with most effects where the farther away sound effects occur, the lower they are.

Like, if you go back to Splatoon 2 after 3, it seems positively silent compared to the amount that you can hear in Splatoon 3.
 
Lozjam said:
I really don't think it is voxel based specifically.
Click to expand...
But they seemingly tie a lot of information like sound or lighting to a Voxel like 3D grid. This would definitely be something that is not needed in Mario Wonder or Splatoon 3. There they can rely on more conventional (and more accurate) methods because having more hardware power left.
 
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I'm super excited to see ModuleSystem being taken to a whole new level with the next 3D Mario.

Most people agree on it being full open world, but I wouldn't discount the possibility of it being "Galaxy again", but not as in a Galaxy game, but with a very complex gameplay mechanic that makes everyone think "how the hell did they make it completely satisfying to play and it doesn't break??" like how we saw the systems of TotK.
 
Marce-chan said:
I'm super excited to see ModuleSystem being taken to a whole new level with the next 3D Mario.

Most people agree on it being full open world, but I wouldn't discount the possibility of it being "Galaxy again", but not as in a Galaxy game, but with a very complex gameplay mechanic that makes everyone think "how the hell did they make it completely satisfying to play and it doesn't break??" like how we saw the systems of TotK.
Click to expand...
Honestly, even though I liked Bowser’s Fury, I’m not sure that the open world brings so much to the grammar of Mario games. I am quite excited that they are preparing surprising innovations that we do not think about at all in this regard.
 
Last edited:
HockeyBird said:
They say that if you could perfectly simulate every particle interaction in the universe, then you can predict the future. No one would have expected that it would be some programmers working on a Zelda videogame who'd be the ones make that simulation.
Click to expand...
Sorry, the scientist in me has to comment on this. The idea that by simulating every particle in the universe we can predict the future would only be true if we're wrong about nature of quantum mechanics and subatomic particles do infact behave in a deterministic way. That is to say that if two particles interact in the exact same way, multiple times, the outcome will be exactly the same each time.

However, as we understand quantum mechanics in the present, the behaviours of subatomic particles are probabilistic. So if two particles interact in the same way multiple times, then there come be multiple possible outcomes of varying likelihood. We can never know exactly which outcome will occur, only the chance it will. That means that no matter how sophisticated our simulation is, we can never determine exactly what will happen, only the probability that a particular thing event will happen.
 
Me: Makes a joke about the Zelda developers being so good at their jobs that they discovered the fundamental mechanics of the universe and can use that to predict the future (or make fun physics puzzles in Zelda games)

Quantum mechanics folk: Well, actually...

To be clear, I am not saying that the Zelda team has actually developed the theory of everything. They're obviously working on that for the next Zelda game on Switch 2.
 
famitsu write up and images

www.famitsu.com

『ゼルダの伝説 ティアキン』サウンドが「勝手に鳴る」仕組みを作った。自由で広大なハイラルを彩る音の世界【GDC 2024】 | ゲーム・エンタメ最新情報のファミ通.com

2024年3月18日～22日の期間開催中のGDC（Game Developers Conference）2024。『ゼルダの伝説　ティアーズ オブ ザ キングダム』講演、サウンドにまつわる発表のリポートをお届け。
www.famitsu.com www.famitsu.com
 
ILikeFeet said:
famitsu write up and images

www.famitsu.com

『ゼルダの伝説 ティアキン』サウンドが「勝手に鳴る」仕組みを作った。自由で広大なハイラルを彩る音の世界【GDC 2024】 | ゲーム・エンタメ最新情報のファミ通.com

2024年3月18日～22日の期間開催中のGDC（Game Developers Conference）2024。『ゼルダの伝説　ティアーズ オブ ザ キングダム』講演、サウンドにまつわる発表のリポートをお届け。
www.famitsu.com www.famitsu.com
Click to expand...

It seems they've built a "chemistry engine" for sound. A lot of the attenuation effects mentioned in the article can be observed in Breath of the Wild, but the main difference here is that it all works on a systemic level in Tears of the Kingdom. The voxel approach is quite an elegant solution to providing a structure that allows sound to be physicalized in the game world. Also, the use of ray casting has expanded for this system as well. Very impressive!
 
brainchild said:
It seems they've built a "chemistry engine" for sound. A lot of the attenuation effects mentioned in the article can be observed in Breath of the Wild, but the main difference here is that it all works on a systemic level in Tears of the Kingdom. The voxel approach is quite an elegant solution to providing a structure that allows sound to be physicalized in the game world. Also, the use of ray casting has expanded for this system as well. Very impressive!
Click to expand...
Here I was, thinking it sounded exactly like botw lol. Wonder how many people noticed all this effort.
 
Hermii said:
Here I was, thinking it sounded exactly like botw lol. Wonder how many people noticed all this effort.
Click to expand...
It's probably less about making it sound "better" to the end user and more about the system doing work that the team would've otherwise taken time to do. Like the new sounds that they said they never recorded but were sorta created on the fly by the new system. If you have a system that can create context-sensitive sound effects in realtime based on material and physics data that already exist, that might turn out to be a significant timesaver on the development side.

Edit: just realized a second benefit: in a game that depends so much on player choice it would make sense to have a realtime sound-creation engine so developers don't have to try and predict every possible thing a player might potentially do or build and then record and implement those sounds for given predicted actions. Especially when a big part of BotW/TotK's popularity has been players finding ways around the "normal" path. And considering what TotK gives you the ability to do, this might've had more to do with the creation of a "sound physics engine" than anything else.
 
Last edited:
boodream said:
Honestly, even though I liked Bowser’s Fury, I’m not sure that the open world brings so much to the grammar of Mario games. I am quite excited that they are preparing surprising innovations that we do not think about at all in this regard.
Click to expand...
I think for me the appeal of an open world Mario (or any 3D platformer) is the concept of iterating on the sense of freedom and exploration to its logical conclusion. We all meme about “you see that mountain, you can climb it” but I can’t be the only one who played Mario 64 wanting to jump beyond the castle and explore more of the world of that game beyond painting portals. I am not an open world zealot by any means but I do genuinely believe the Mario team could do something special with the concept.

That said I would totally take 3D World 2. I just want more 3D platformers in general, really.
 
Hermii said:
Here I was, thinking it sounded exactly like botw lol. Wonder how many people noticed all this effort.
Click to expand...
Like @chocolate_supra said, it's probably moreso a work flow thing VS a quality thing. That being said, I did notice an improvement. Existing sound effects sounded "better." There's an improved soundstage and more depth and "3D-ness" to the sound effects that are in both BotW and TotK. There's also subtle sound effects that I don't believe were there in Breath of the Wild. Something like the sound of rain hitting your paraglider was one I picked up on.
 
Last edited:
lattjeful said:
There's also subtle sound effects that I don't believe were there in Breath of the Wild. Something like the sound of rain hitting your paraglider was one I picked up on.
Click to expand...
I caught that too! And as a rain lover it was a welcome surprise. The splash sounds when Link dives into the water are also a lot more detailed, with something of a second wave of smaller splash sounds occurring as the droplets from the initial splash come back down and hit the water. Some real chef's kiss stuff.
 
I think a voxel oriented sound system in general will allow for richer sound-based gameplay experiences as well, particularly with stealth missions and NPCs' ability to detect the player based on how the sound was affected before reaching their "ears"; there is enough data there to devise such mechanics in a very convincing way and I'd love to see Nintendo experiment with something like that in their future projects.
 
I think the most realistic reason for Nintendo to consolidate under one engine for EPD at least is to facilitate assets sharing among different projects/games whether it is textures, models, rigs or animations which will be important as game development gets increasingly more complex on a year to year basis.

You also ensure a pretty consistent pipeline across multiple games so it can allow people more easily to go from one game to another, for example a modeller going from Splatoon 3 to TOTK, etc.


Probably why Capcom also is essentially having all their in house projects developed with their RE Moon engine (besides the also financial aspects of not having to pay royalties to anyone).

That doesn't necessarily mean you can just plop very specific systems from one game to another easily even if it's obviously more doable if it's all under the same engine (assuming the Zelda games aren't already sort of their own forks of their engine making that less compatible).
 
chocolate_supra said:
I caught that too! And as a rain lover it was a welcome surprise. The splash sounds when Link dives into the water are also a lot more detailed, with something of a second wave of smaller splash sounds occurring as the droplets from the initial splash come back down and hit the water. Some real chef's kiss stuff.
Click to expand...
Yep! The little bits of more subtle sound added and enabled due to the "physics engine but for sound" really add a lot to the game. Makes it all the more easier to get lost in.
brainchild said:
I think a voxel oriented sound system in general will allow for richer sound-based gameplay experiences as well, particularly with stealth missions and NPCs' ability to detect the player based on how the sound was affected before reaching their "ears"; there is enough data there to devise such mechanics in a very convincing way and I'd love to see Nintendo experiment with something like that in their future projects.
Click to expand...
Yep. If they really wanna expand it and get nerdy about it, they can do two things:

1. Expand things from factoring in different materials (metal, wood, etc.) into factoring in different types of those materials. I.e. for wood, certain types sound different and have a different frequency response depending on density. Lighter wood is "softer" and darker, while more dense wood is brighter, sharper sounding, and sustains more.

2. Use this for gameplay purposes, like you mentioned. Stealth sections would flourish, especially with good AI.

The possibilities for this voxel-based system - especially on more powerful hardware than the Switch - are huge, both for immersion/nerd reasons and for gameplay reasons.

Switch 2 can't come soon enough...
 
While Ultrahand has been confirmed to not return for the next game, I'm hoping that Nintendo consolidating to one singular engine means they can keep all the crazy physics/building stuff around for other unrelated games. I would love to see Nintendo's take on a building-type game like Minecraft or SimCity, for example, where it's all about building something and maintaining it, versus building a contraption to solve something.
 
Is Switch 2 Zelda going to be revealed early? Or will they actually wait a long time, this time?

Seems like they can't get away from it tbh. Like they'll be forced to give us a teaser year 1 or 2 of switch 2.

It's one of those titles they have to show even if 5 years in advance to drum up hype for a system.
 
VintoWin said:
Is Switch 2 Zelda going to be revealed early? Or will they actually wait a long time, this time?

Seems like they can't get away from it tbh. Like they'll be forced to give us a teaser year 1 or 2 of switch 2.

It's one of those titles they have to show even if 5 years in advance to drum up hype for a system.
Click to expand...
we'll get some Zelda game that's not a follow up to TotK, like a 2D zelda, or a jrpg by Gust starring Zelda
 
ILikeFeet said:
famitsu write up and images
Click to expand...

The Famitsu report of the TotK GDC talk is a two-parter:
www.famitsu.com

『ゼルダの伝説 ティアキン』自由な“掛け算の遊び”を生むために。「全部物理で作る」を決断するまで【GDC 2024】 | ゲーム・エンタメ最新情報のファミ通.com

2024年3月18日～3月22日アメリカ・サンフランシスコで開催中のGDC（Game Developers Conference）2024。その中で『ゼルダの伝説　ティアーズ オブ ザ キングダム』についての講演が行われた。前半部分、“掛け算の遊び”を生み出す物理プログラムについてをリポート。
www.famitsu.com www.famitsu.com
www.famitsu.com

『ゼルダの伝説 ティアキン』サウンドが「勝手に鳴る」仕組みを作った。自由で広大なハイラルを彩る音の世界【GDC 2024】 | ゲーム・エンタメ最新情報のファミ通.com

2024年3月18日～22日の期間開催中のGDC（Game Developers Conference）2024。『ゼルダの伝説　ティアーズ オブ ザ キングダム』講演、サウンドにまつわる発表のリポートをお届け。
www.famitsu.com www.famitsu.com

They also published one for the Mario Wonder GDC talk:
www.famitsu.com

『マリオワンダー』が不思議あふれる2Dマリオとして新生した方法。採用されなかったワンダーや開発資料も公開【GDC 2024】 | ゲーム・エンタメ最新情報のファミ通.com

『スーパーマリオブラザーズ ワンダー』が如何にして秘密と不思議にあふれる新しい2Dマリオとなったのか、プロデューサーを務める任天堂の手塚卓志氏とディレクターの毛利志朗氏が講演を行った。
www.famitsu.com www.famitsu.com

These are nice because they seem to contain all the slides.
 
Hermii said:
Here I was, thinking it sounded exactly like botw lol. Wonder how many people noticed all this effort.
Click to expand...
Honestly some of the things I heard in the environment and the positioning of it vs where Link was in the world was baffling with my noise canceling headphones. Very immersive and I just don't think the system was that detailed in botw
 
fwd-bwd said:
The Famitsu report of the TotK GDC talk is a two-parter:
www.famitsu.com

『ゼルダの伝説 ティアキン』自由な“掛け算の遊び”を生むために。「全部物理で作る」を決断するまで【GDC 2024】 | ゲーム・エンタメ最新情報のファミ通.com

2024年3月18日～3月22日アメリカ・サンフランシスコで開催中のGDC（Game Developers Conference）2024。その中で『ゼルダの伝説　ティアーズ オブ ザ キングダム』についての講演が行われた。前半部分、“掛け算の遊び”を生み出す物理プログラムについてをリポート。
www.famitsu.com www.famitsu.com
www.famitsu.com

『ゼルダの伝説 ティアキン』サウンドが「勝手に鳴る」仕組みを作った。自由で広大なハイラルを彩る音の世界【GDC 2024】 | ゲーム・エンタメ最新情報のファミ通.com

2024年3月18日～22日の期間開催中のGDC（Game Developers Conference）2024。『ゼルダの伝説　ティアーズ オブ ザ キングダム』講演、サウンドにまつわる発表のリポートをお届け。
www.famitsu.com www.famitsu.com

They also published one for the Mario Wonder GDC talk:
www.famitsu.com

『マリオワンダー』が不思議あふれる2Dマリオとして新生した方法。採用されなかったワンダーや開発資料も公開【GDC 2024】 | ゲーム・エンタメ最新情報のファミ通.com

『スーパーマリオブラザーズ ワンダー』が如何にして秘密と不思議にあふれる新しい2Dマリオとなったのか、プロデューサーを務める任天堂の手塚卓志氏とディレクターの毛利志朗氏が講演を行った。
www.famitsu.com www.famitsu.com

These are nice because they seem to contain all the slides.
Click to expand...
After reading both with Google Translate, I'm blown away in general, but, as a musician, specially for the sound design part. This is nuts, complete nuts.
 
shoptroll said:
Eurogamer posted a recap of the Zelda presentation:

www.eurogamer.net

Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom devs explain why it was a much bigger overhaul than you'd think

Nintendo developers explain how The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom's complex physics-based world led to "chaos", and their solutions to the problem.
www.eurogamer.net www.eurogamer.net
Click to expand...

Read the article ... and i'm now even more hungry to see the actual presentation.

It's simply bonkers what the devs created here, and to read that basically every part of development went to work hand in hand to create this world and its systems is nuts too.
 
shoptroll said:
Eurogamer posted a recap of the Zelda presentation:

www.eurogamer.net

Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom devs explain why it was a much bigger overhaul than you'd think

Nintendo developers explain how The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom's complex physics-based world led to "chaos", and their solutions to the problem.
www.eurogamer.net www.eurogamer.net
Click to expand...
It makes so much sense that the game would take so long even when reusing the old world. It's like if the cover of the car is the same, but everything under the hood was reworked and tweaked.

Though now I wonder; had they made a seperate game using these physics after BotW but disconnected from this world, how long that would have taken? How many revisions would have to be made to scope on a regular basis.

TotK is a marvel of a game.
 
Last edited:
Mer.Saloon said:
It makes so much sense that the game would take so long even when reusing the old world. It's like if the cover of the car is the same, but everything under the hood was reworked and tweaked. Though I even wonder if they made a new seperate game like this after BotW how long that would have taken, how many revisions would have to be made to scope on a regular basis.

TotK is a marvel of a game.
Click to expand...
Legend of Zelda: Tears of Theseus
 
Serif said:
Game is deserving of a second wind on Switch 2. The urge to replay is strong.
Click to expand...
Seriously, one of my friends is playing it now for the first time and hearing him talk about it is making me want to start a new file asap.
 
Mer.Saloon said:
It makes so much sense that the game would take so long even when reusing the old world. It's like if the cover of the car is the same, but everything under the hood was reworked and tweaked.

Though now I wonder; had they made a seperate game using these physics after BotW but disconnected from this world, how long that would have taken? How many revisions would have to be made to scope on a regular basis.

TotK is a marvel of a game.
Click to expand...
someone said it here best I think back when the game came out. They said something like ToTK could only be this good because it was the culmination of over 10 years of development.

I know people have their quibbles over the game, which is normal. No game is perfect to everyone. BUT TotK may be the GOAT for me. It made me feel the same things that BOTW did but more so. I was in awe of the world and the gameplay systems at hand. The game as made such a lasting impression on me that even today I hope for some deluxe version on the successor system so I can play it again. I just find myself randomly thinking about how much I enjoyed that game lol. And like, I'm not a Zelda guy. I typically don't care too much for Zelda.
 
ILikeFeet said:
I still want a Sheik game using the stealth functions of BotW/TotK
Click to expand...
It’s funny how much the early 3D Zelda games experimented with stealth leading to it being baked into BOTW/TOTK. Tactical Sheik Action could make a fun spin-off but Nintendo seems more precious about TLOZ spin-offs compared to something like Mario.
 
Mekanos said:
It’s funny how much the early 3D Zelda games experimented with stealth leading to it being baked into BOTW/TOTK. Tactical Sheik Action could make a fun spin-off but Nintendo seems more precious about TLOZ spin-offs compared to something like Mario.
Click to expand...
they gave Link a not-gun and let Zelda be a rhythm action game. Sheik stealth game is more normal than those
 
The tying-in of the two came from the way those sounds combined. Just like with the physics of Tears of the Kingdom, there's also no specific vehicle noise in the game, even for set NPC vehicles like a horse-and-cart. Instead, rather than simply recording a cart and using that, there's a specific sound for each of the elements that make it up - the wheels, chains, boards, and so on - which combine together to sound just how you'd expect a cart itself would as a whole. At first, this caught the Zelda team themselves by surprise. "It's making sounds I have no memory of creating!" Osada jokingly recalled telling his director
Click to expand...
This is actually insane
 
Hocot8 said:
It made me feel the same things that BOTW did but more so. I was in awe of the world and the gameplay systems at hand. The game as made such a lasting impression on me that even today I hope for some deluxe version on the successor system so I can play it again.
Click to expand...
Cosigned. I honestly didn't expect TotK to match BotW, but damn, it surpassed it. Utterly magical.
 
Eurogamer followed up with a write-up of the Mario Wonder talk.

https://www.eurogamer.net/how-super-mario-bros-wonders-devs-narrowed-down-2000-ideas-for-its-effects

A very interesting quote on Nintendo's take on game design:

It was up to everyone on our team to come up with ideas, regardless of job title or seniority; Nintendo believes that everyone on a team is a game designer.
Click to expand...

Interesting approach. Basically telling everyone on a dev team, no matter the actual position, to actively come up with ideas and being "there's no dumb ideas".
 
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