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Fun Club Which is the most far-fetched Zelda theory out of these two?

The most outlandish theory in Zelda history

  • Link is dead in Majora's Mask

    Votes: 13 21.7%

  • Breath of the Wild is a simulation

    Votes: 45 75.0%

  • I know something else (please mention in post)

    Votes: 2 3.3%
  • Total voters
    60
Reader mode
Tye said:
And as for the timeline having not been established from the beginning, that’s simply not the case for the majority of Zelda games. Prior to the full official timeline being revealed in the Hyrule Historia, the following timeline threads were all pretty much already 100% confirmed around the release of each respective game:
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Yeah that’s what I meant, maybe not worded well. Connections between individual games existed but I don’t think they ever had a grand picture of how the overarching timeline looked while working on each game.
  • Zelda II is a sequel to the original.
  • ALttP is a prequel to the original.
  • LA is a sequel to ALttP.
  • OoT is a prequel to ALttP.
  • MM is a sequel to OoT.
  • Oracle games are vaguely tied to the other 2D games.
  • FS is before everything else up to this point.
  • TWW is also a sequel to OoT.
  • TMC is a prequel to FS and the new earliest game; also intended to be the origin of the hero’s cap (whoops).
  • FSA is sometime after FS and was also intended to connect to ALttP (whoops).
  • TP is also a sequel to OoT but set after MM.
  • PH and ST directly follow Wind Waker and each other.
Most of that sounds good on paper but it falls apart with all of the games so reliant on OoT (or retroactively tied to it). Don’t have a problem with the Child / Adult split in OoT, the next two 3D Zelda games took it into account and followed up both sides; but their best solution to fill the holes being a “Link failed in OoT” branch is very silly, and that’s the extent of how I feel about it.
 
Derachi said:
I just don’t think it’s something they take seriously.
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To be fair / pedantic, that's different from the "at all" in your original post.

I don't think anyone, including the very hardcore timeline speculators deep in the catacombs of Zelda Universe forums, thinks the developers take the timeline as seriously as the fans. But I think that is applicable to a lot of lore, like Star Wars. Especially Star Wars.
 
Here's an interview with Zelda producer Eiji Aonuma from 2017:

Siphano(interviewer) : Here's a last question that you have probably been asked a lot of times. So I'll ask another one instead. A lot of fans wonder where BoTW fits in the timeline. Do you think this timeline is all that important ? Or is it more for the fans ?

Aonuma : When we start to work on a new Zelda, we of course think about all this timeline stuff. Nintendo has a lot of IPs today. And Shigeru Miyamoto asks that we do our best to keep the timeline coherent. So we do it. But honestly, when we start to think of a new Zelda, respecting the timeline is a constraint for us. We would like to be free to imagine whatever we want without having to worry about the timeline. Being able to create while still keeping Zelda's essence, and bring new things to the table. Except now when we think of a new idea, we have to wonder "OK, but where does it fit in the timeline?" and it instantly becomes very complicated! And sometimes, we can't do these new ideas because it wouldn't fit in the timeline ! So, for the creative teams, it's an hindrance. Yeah, we published a timeline in a book but among our staff, we would like to be able to stop thinking about it... What's funny is to see the fans debate where BoTW fits in the timeline. But history has been written by historians that have been able to establish an order of events. Except no one is really sure everything happened in this exact order! Anyways, when it comes to the Zelda timeline, I'm of the opinion that it's for the players to debate, and to imagine themselves the order of events!

Here's an interview with Miyamoto from 1999:

Interviewer: I wanted to first ask about the scenario for Ocarina of Time. Before it was released, Nintendo announced that this new N64 Zelda would "unlock the mysteries of the entire Zelda story". Could you tell us about that in your own words?

Miyamoto: Maybe "mysteries" was a bit of an exaggeration, but you do learn the story of where the triforce came from, and it is meant to be "Episode 1" of the Zelda saga. The basic order is Ocarina, then the original FDS Zelda, followed by A Link to the Past.​

The Zelda developers always focus on gameplay front and foremost. But that doesn't mean they don't know the story and lore of their own games. These developers have spent tens of thousands of hours making these Zelda games, they know more about the franchise then even the most dedicated Zelda fans.

There's nothing wrong with disliking the timeline. There's nothing wrong with seeing the games as retellings of the same story. But it is objective fact that the timeline exists and is carefully considered by the developers.
 
Shigeru Miyamoto being the one demanding explanations for the story while the leads want to just forget about it is tremendously damaging to anti-Miyamoto rhetoric
 
Nickle said:
The Zelda developers always focus on gameplay front and foremost. But that doesn't mean they don't know the story and lore of their own games. These developers have spent tens of thousands of hours making these Zelda games, they know more about the franchise then even the most dedicated Zelda fans.
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Found this nugget from 2002, around Wind Waker's release:

Q: Where does The Wind Waker fit into the overall timeline of the Legend of Zelda?

Aonuma-san:

In terms of the storyline, we've decided that this takes place 100 years after the events in the Ocarina of Time. We think that as you play through the game, you'll notice that in the beginning the storyline explains some of the events in the Ocarina of Time. And, you'll find hints of things from Ocarina of Time exist in The Wink Waker, too.

There's also a more complicated explanation. If you think back to the end of the Ocarina of Time, there were two time period endings to that game. First Link defeated Ganon as an adult and he actually went back to being a child. You could actually say that the ending where he was an adult, The Wind Waker would take place 100 years after that.
Click to expand...

I'm confident their thought process was "we want to create visuals less derivative of Ocarina, cel-shading gives us this option" -> "islands on a blue ocean would be particularly striking in a cel-shaded artstyle, and sailing would be very different from Ocarina's core gameplay loop" -> "it would be cool to set this in the Hyrule after Ocarina where Link was sent back i.e. 'missing'".

Gameplay comes first, but no one forced them to make Wind Waker an Ocarina sequel. It was their decision.
 
Derachi said:
I just don’t think it’s something they take seriously.
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I don’t know how you can really come to that conclusion if you’ve actually been following the series and playing the games, let alone reading the developer’s own words, but okay. It’s not a priority in early development, and gameplay will always come first, but the timeline is absolutely something that is seriously considered, and that’s been made clear time and time again. I mean, they literally made an origin game that explains the whole endless cycle of Links, Zeldas, and Ganondorfs/Ganon-likes.

MondoMega said:
Yeah that’s what I meant, maybe not worded well. Connections between individual games existed but I don’t think they ever had a grand picture of how the overarching timeline looked while working on each game.
  • Zelda II is a sequel to the original.
  • ALttP is a prequel to the original.
  • LA is a sequel to ALttP.
  • OoT is a prequel to ALttP.
  • MM is a sequel to OoT.
  • Oracle games are vaguely tied to the other 2D games.
  • FS is before everything else up to this point.
  • TWW is also a sequel to OoT.
  • TMC is a prequel to FS and the new earliest game; also intended to be the origin of the hero’s cap (whoops).
  • FSA is sometime after FS and was also intended to connect to ALttP (whoops).
  • TP is also a sequel to OoT but set after MM.
  • PH and ST directly follow Wind Waker and each other.
Most of that sounds good on paper but it falls apart with all of the games so reliant on OoT (or retroactively tied to it). Don’t have a problem with the Child / Adult split in OoT, the next two 3D Zelda games took it into account and followed up both sides; but their best solution to fill the holes being a “Link failed in OoT” branch is very silly, and that’s the extent of how I feel about it.
Click to expand...
Well, Miyamoto said as far back as 2003 that they have a master timeline document that the developers refer to when making the Zelda games, and Aonuma later corroborated that fact in 2007 when he confirmed that such a document exists on his PC, so it’s very much the case that they have indeed had this overarching timeline to consult while making each game. Some details may have shifted over the years when it comes to the games that didn’t have firm placements before like the Oracle games, and we can’t say for sure when the Downfall Timeline was officially conceived (though after FSA’s plot changes would be my assumption), but the overall picture has absolutely been there based on what the developers have said themselves.

The OoT-reliant stuff really only falls apart with the ALttP connection, but it’s always been that way. That’s why I think the Downfall Timeline is so great, because it fixes that in a clever way (at least to me), but I would have probably preferred it if FSA would have filled the role of being the missing link between ALttP and OoT like it seems it was originally planned to be. Unfortunately that didn’t happen, though, so it is what it is, and I’ll take the Downfall Timeline since it works just fine while preserving the original intent of OoT being the prequel to ALttP.
 
Common Knowledge said:
As someone with just a passing interest in the Zelda games' overarching timeline, I will say the people who shit on the the mere concept of people enjoying there being such a thing have far surpassed the timeline enthusiasts in their annoyance and smugness. Like several times over.
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This i agree. People get legit angry at people doing timeline speculation and it confuses me.

To me the idea that "Its the same story told over and over like a legend!" Makes less sense with the amout of sequels we get
 
0
The timeline stuff is silly and it’s real and I love it. I don’t really think about it very deeply most of the time and I take everything as a new game (well, the ones I’ve played) but I do lazily wonder about locations and stuff and if/how it fits together. I like that it can be ignored too. I don’t even remember which games go where! But I know they go somewhere and that’s very cool and funny.
 
0
Phosphorescent Skeleton said:
Neither are real or interesting. Why would either one be true? Why would they make a game with one story, but secretly have it be something else? Just seems like a misundering of subtext and doing a deep reading of a text. I hate fan theories.
Click to expand...

Because Link went into the Lost Woods without a fairy and later became a Stalfos. The theory is more likely correct than it is incorrect.
 
Raccoon said:
Shigeru Miyamoto being the one demanding explanations for the story while the leads want to just forget about it is tremendously damaging to anti-Miyamoto rhetoric
Click to expand...
but Miyamoto hates unique stories, lore and the fans. He actively doesn't get it despite being an iconic successful visionary in the industry for over 40 years now and existing stories of developers who admire him and his additions to their games even today
 
0
Phosphorescent Skeleton said:
Well he didn't become a god damned skeleton thats for sure
Click to expand...

zelda.fandom.com

Hero's Spirit

"White Wolf" redirects here. For the recurring enemy in The Legend of Zelda series, see White Wolfos. The Hero's Spirit[5], also known as the Hero’s Shade, is a character appearing in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. The Hero's Spirit is a skeletal specter who can assume the form of the...
zelda.fandom.com zelda.fandom.com

Jesus fucking Christ, the level in this thread, fuck me.
 
Chaos Theory said:
zelda.fandom.com

Hero's Spirit

"White Wolf" redirects here. For the recurring enemy in The Legend of Zelda series, see White Wolfos. The Hero's Spirit[5], also known as the Hero’s Shade, is a character appearing in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. The Hero's Spirit is a skeletal specter who can assume the form of the...
zelda.fandom.com zelda.fandom.com

Jesus fucking Christ, the level in this thread, fuck me.
Click to expand...
I mean, yeah, he eventually died, but not in majoras mask. Nothing in that article implies he went the lost forest and became a skel of tonne. Also its fandom+ratio+bald
 
0
images


Link as depicted in The Legend of Zelda Majora's Mask
 
Chaos Theory said:
zelda.fandom.com

Hero's Spirit

"White Wolf" redirects here. For the recurring enemy in The Legend of Zelda series, see White Wolfos. The Hero's Spirit[5], also known as the Hero’s Shade, is a character appearing in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. The Hero's Spirit is a skeletal specter who can assume the form of the...
zelda.fandom.com zelda.fandom.com

Jesus fucking Christ, the level in this thread, fuck me.
Click to expand...
If Zelda fans want to treat Hyrule Historia and the Encyclopedia as the Zelda Holy Scriptures you can’t ignore the facts they set out about Hero’s Shade:
  • Twilight Princess Link is his blood descendant, which means he had offspring. Didn’t die as a kid.
  • He lived a life of regret not being remembered for his heroics saving both Hyrule and Termina and never being able to pass on his technique to the next generation. Didn’t die before Majora’s Mask and didn’t die as a kid.
These immediately make that “Link got lost in the Lost Woods and died” theory bunk.
 
MondoMega said:
If Zelda fans want to treat Hyrule Historia and the Encyclopedia as the Zelda Holy Scriptures you can’t ignore the facts they set out about Hero’s Shade:
  • Twilight Princess Link is his blood descendant, which means he had offspring. Didn’t die as a kid.
  • He lived a life of regret not being remembered for his heroics saving both Hyrule and Termina. Didn’t die before Majora’s Mask and didn’t die as a kid.
These immediately make that “Link got lost in the Lost Woods and died” theory bunk.
Click to expand...

I don't need them. OOT Link goes through the Lost Woods, as shown in game; a figure whom knows the techniques of the hero, teaches TP link said techniques while in skeletal form, as shown in game.

The skeleton in TP doesn't at all say 'I lived a life of regret', they say 'I could not convey the lessons of that life to those that came after', which very well could be because they died.

Your best point is on the 'blood descendant'; however that is a vague term and I do not know to which extent there is evidence of that in Twilight Princess.
 
Chaos Theory said:
I don't need them. OOT Link goes through the Lost Woods, as shown in game; a figure whom knows the techniques of the hero, teaches TP link said techniques while in skeletal form, as shown in game.

The skeleton in TP doesn't at all say 'I lived a life of regret', they say 'I could not convey the lessons of that life to those that came after', which very well could be because they died.

Your best point is on the 'blood descendant'; however that is a vague term and I do not know to which extent there is evidence of that in Twilight Princess.
Click to expand...
I guess his child skeleton grew into an adult skeleton. Musta been drinking that whole milk!!!!
 
Phosphorescent Skeleton said:
Yes
Click to expand...

Ok, so I said it was 'quite' obvious that I was referring to the beginning of MM (Link goes into Lost Woods without fairy) and TP (a skeletal figure teaches TP Link techniques) as the baseline clues supporting the statement: "Because Link went into the Lost Woods without a fairy and later became a Stalfos", which is different from me saying the theory itself is 'incredibly' obvious (I didn't, I said it was more likely correct than incorrect).

Desperate and sad.
 
Addressing someone with a snarky copypasta is overly rude. Taking this, and prior posts into account, we are issuing you a one week thread ban. - Aurc, Irene, Josh5890
Chaos Theory said:
Ok, so I said it was 'quite' obvious that I was referring to the beginning of MM (Link goes into Lost Woods without fairy) and TP (a skeletal figure teaches TP Link techniques) as the baseline clues supporting the statement: "Because Link went into the Lost Woods without a fairy and later became a Stalfos", which is different from me saying the theory itself is 'incredibly' obvious (I didn't, I said it was more likely correct than incorrect).

Desperate and sad.
Click to expand...





Yeah, I'm the one coming across as desperate and sad, not the person splitting hairs over incredibly obvious and quite obvious. Cope+seethe+ratio+mald
 
Chaos Theory said:
You need to very quickly apologize for this baseless accusation. This is not something I did on purpose, nor would I ever.
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I think you're the one who needs to apologize for misgendering her. If this is so baseless, it shouldn't be a big deal.
 
Clov said:
I think you're the one who needs to apologize for misgendering her. If this is so baseless, it shouldn't be a big deal.
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I literally opened my DM's to do just that before you even replied. Now you need to apologize, because that's gross.
 
We will be locking the thread for the time being, due to the severe derail it has undertaken, while we review reports.
 
Staff communication
  • Index
    • The thread is now being reopened. We would like to remind everyone to stay on topic, and not derail the thread, especially not into the point where it takes over the conversation.

    Timeline discussion is fine, if it’s within the context of the question proposed in the OP, but there is no need to make it personal, heated and have a go at each other over it.

    Please keep this in mind before you post. - Irene, Derachi, Josh5890
     
  • Index
    • catonkatonk said:
    The real absurdity is that people believe the above couldn't happen, which would mean that, for example, Wind Waker isn't a sequel to Ocarina of Time, despite, you know, it being very obviously a sequel to Ocarina of Time that deals with the events at the end of that game.
    Click to expand...
    I think it just overly complicates things to say that because sequels that contradict each other exist, a branching timeline must have been intentional. Superman Returns or every other Halloween movie don't bother trying to make that case, they just say "Here's a different way things could've gone, take it or leave it." There ARE examples where it is definitely intentional, but things like Mortal Kombat no-number sequel and Star Trek no-number movie sequel make it very explicit.
    MondoMega said:
    [*]He lived a life of regret not being remembered for his heroics saving both Hyrule and Termina and never being able to pass on his technique to the next generation. Didn’t die before Majora’s Mask and didn’t die as a kid.
    Click to expand...
    This version of Link sounds like kind of a dick. REGRETTING that he managed to save multiple worlds but isn't famous for it?
     
    JoshuaJSlone said:
    I think it just overly complicates things to say that because sequels that contradict each other exist, a branching timeline must have been intentional. Superman Returns or every other Halloween movie don't bother trying to make that case, they just say "Here's a different way things could've gone, take it or leave it." There ARE examples where it is definitely intentional, but things like Mortal Kombat no-number sequel and Star Trek no-number movie sequel make it very explicit.

    This version of Link sounds like kind of a dick. REGRETTING that he managed to save multiple worlds but isn't famous for it?
    Click to expand...
    Not necessarily famous, but he lived his entire life with no recognition of what he did.

    Imagine saving Hyrule and Termina, and because of the circumstances involved, he can't tell anyone what precisely happened without sounding like he's crazy. So he had to sit on that for his entire life.
     
    0
    JoshuaJSlone said:
    I think it just overly complicates things to say that because sequels that contradict each other exist, a branching timeline must have been intentional. Superman Returns or every other Halloween movie don't bother trying to make that case, they just say "Here's a different way things could've gone, take it or leave it." There ARE examples where it is definitely intentional, but things like Mortal Kombat no-number sequel and Star Trek no-number movie sequel make it very explicit.

    This version of Link sounds like kind of a dick. REGRETTING that he managed to save multiple worlds but isn't famous for it?
    Click to expand...
    He lived a life of regret, he didn’t regret saving the world.
     
    0
    BotW theory tracks a lot less to me because it sort of hotfoots out of the agency built into the game

    whereas the Majora’s Mask theory was something I always independently thought, and reflects the game’s structure and theme, so it speaks to me a ton

    like Link gets lost in the woods, attacked, and has his shit stolen. he chases after, and falls into a deep hole.

    only after he falls into the hole does the skull kid start being able to do weird shit, only then does he get transformed, only then does he walk into a twisting hallway to possibly another world

    the first words he hears on the other side are “you’ve met a terrible fate, haven’t you?”

    major pieces of the game are literally meeting people who recently died, comforting them enough to communicate with you, and handling their unfinished business so they can go in peace

    each area has a different emotional tone — a different part of processing both a personal grief and a grief of the world

    Termina is called Termina

    and it serves as a limbo — death is coming for everyone in three days, a looming shadow in the literal form of the moon, and so many of the stories are about finding what comfort can be found in that, about taking care of things before it’s all gone

    skull kid and link are both lost in the unknown looking for friends who are gone

    and in some ways, both conclude that those friends are always with them… even though they’re gone

    and through the mask salesman, it’s suggested that perhaps the best we can do in the grips of terror and the clock running out on all of us… is to bring happiness to others for whatever fleeting time we have

    I personally think Termina is closer to a coma, but as an examination of death and what life means. it’s sort of like short-circuiting the last half of the hero’s journey, something of a reflection on the aftermath of Ocarina of Time.

    like… you come back changed, and you can’t find the person you went through it with anymore, if that part of your life still exists… and you get lost in the fog. you’ve seen shit and saved the world and it’s not the world you know anymore.

    and in seeking, you are more lost than ever. and you wind up in Termina, where one path is lonesome destruction, but your memory of the past makes you want to change it.

    not just for yourself, but for everyone.

    you do everything in your power to help, to reach acceptance and comfort, to shift to a kinder death, a kinder ending. the awaited festival. not the world burning.

    and in helping them you process your own grief. and doing so lets you return home.

    and weirdness like this in Zelda is not uncommon at this point — Link’s Awakening was already out

    so I don’t think it’s death, exactly. but it’s much closer to that, and more reflective of that throughout, than the simulation theory seems to be.

    granted, I didn’t watch either video…
     
    Phosphorescent Skeleton said:
    I don't think the Zelda games have much in thr way of plot, has always felt like a very minor aspect of the series. Don't see any necessity to connect them with a timeline, just seems like a huge waste of brainspace.
    Click to expand...
    You might think that, but a lot of fans don't. I've been a part of many fandoms over the years (books and games both) and pretty much every long-running series that has any plot at all has a dedicated group of fans who dissect every single tiny word/pixel/etc. to try to come up with big grand unifying theories, connections between events of different entries, foreshadowing to things to come, and so on. It always happens. People like things to connect, bridge gaps, and make sense; they like things to have fun callbacks to other entries, or link things together in cool ways (pun slightly intended), and to find deeper meaning in things. Now whether that applies very well to Zelda or is a waste of time or not is subjective, and it definitely gets pretty silly sometimes! But I don't think it's fair to be dismissive about it either.

    I've always thought it was an interesting idea that Link was dead in Majora's Mask, or maybe near death, since the entire game is basically a huge meditation on death. There's also the now-ancient theory (at least 11+ years old?) that Majora's Mask (and its different locations) are based on the stages of grief, and that's another theory I've always liked as well. I'm not sure it's really something that was intended, but it's fun to think about nonetheless.
     
    0
    I always liked Kafei as a mirror to Link, an adult trapped in a child's body with a courageous disposition - kind of like himself, a hero sent back to his childhood but keeping the knowledge of his deeds.
     
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