Discussion What is the greatest 2D platformer of all time?

[Stilt Village]

I'm actually kind of surprised at how strong the backlash to the Metroidvanias is. What do y'all think makes a game a platformer? These are games where you navigate the world and avoid obstacles by running and jumping. Some of them have way more involved platforming than games I guarantee would no question be called platformers. Though then again, I had also thought Metroidvania was generally accepted as a subgenre of platformers no different from how Mario, Celeste, and Mega Man all belong to different subgenres with their own structural and mechanical differences.

Maybe it's that they're usually more in the style of a 3D platformer like Mario 64 which is about exploration and traversal through movement moreso than the constant risk of falling to your death in an obstacle course, and maybe that's an issue for some people? But they're not unique in that regard, a lot of platformers that are more about the challenge of controlling the character than the challenge of the level end up feeling similar.

I’m not usually a stickler for rigid genre classifications, but I think in most gamers’ minds, “2D platformers” are distinct from “games that have 2D platforming elements”. Cuphead or Symphony of the Night don’t exactly scratch the same itch as Mario and DK.

So uhhh I’m counting out like half the list, and from what’s left I guess I’d pick Celeste? Either that or Super Mario World.

This is definitely fair though, I deliberately included Cuphead as something more unconventional that still had the acclaim to hang with the rest (though I firmly believe that sort of Treasure-like 2D action game with an emphasis on boss fights is a valid and interesting type of platformer, loved the crazy air movement you could do in Bleed). And I think most people won't ever see particularly interesting movement out of SotN in particular because the level design is very simple in order to work inverted, and the stuff that actually lets you go fast and do cool things is all optional items that are kind of difficult to use properly. I've played through it several times and I know the wolf form is the equivalent of Black Panther in the Sorrow games or Speed Up in Portrait, but I've never actually used it like that because normally it just trots around uselessly, and I never looked up the controls for it just like I never looked up all the fighting game input spells you can use or the billion other things that are in that game. It can be played as a game with fancy movement but it doesn't have to be, which I guess is very much in the Igavania spirit.

Shovel Knight would be the other answer here—and I'm absolutely shocked it's not on this poll—but Shovel Knight, Tropical Freeze, they've already gotten their flowers. Everyone knows.

Shovel Knight was going to be on there, but I felt that counting all of Treasure Trove as one game would be too much like including Super Mario All-Stars as an option, and there wasn't room to put all of the individual campaigns, nor did I feel like putting only Shovel of Hope made sense either (I don't think it's even the best one!). So it kind of just got dropped through no fault of its quality.

N++ (which should be in the poll!)

This one just wasn't famous enough to justify a spot. If I had like ten more spaces I'd probably include it, for variety's sake at least. I know it has a small but very passionate fanbase.

 

[AngryAlchemist]

Honestly I don't even get why Cuphead would be that unconventional a pick. Platforming is a genre where I think the quality and quantity of platforming is important - and Cuphead has both in spades. It's entire difficulty is based around how hard it is to dodge projectiles and attacks, not how hard it is to shoot. But more than that, the way you dodge projectiles is pretty much entirely through platforming, and it even has entire stages that are based around the platforming aspect.

Stuff like Symphony of the Night is way worse as far as platforming and is only considered a "platformer" vaguely because of the earlier Castlevania games, which are much better platformers (especially the NES games 1 and 3).

 

[Jimmy Joe]

The big thing is that when people talk about platformers, they don't usually include search action games like Metroid or Hollow Knight, even if they have fun platforming challenges. Metroid Dread has great platforming constantly, even more tied into its progression than Super Metroid, but I still would say it's a game about exploring, rather than platforming. Similar to how, when talking about one's favorite shooters, one doesn't usually bring up Mega Man, even though you do quite a bit of shooting in that game

I'd also say Shovel Knight Treasure Trove should be included, as should... uh.... we'll go with Rondo of Blood. That's a good action platformer

But it's your list, have what you like for whatever your reasons are

I'll vote Cyber Shadow regardless

 

[chocolate_supra]

I feel like the difference between a platformer and a metroidvania would be the point of the course and the goal. A platformer like Mario, DK, or Sonic has a very clear A to B goal, with an obstacle course in between, whereas the point of a Metroidvania is exploration and back-and-forthing through the map as you acquire more skills, more like a Zelda than a Mario imo. Sorta like how Megaman has shooting but I wouldn't consider it a shooter game, Metroid has platforming elements but I wouldn't consider it a platformer game. And I say that being fully obsessed with both genres and not attempting at all to put either one beneath the other.

Not that I'm tryina argue with anyone, just kinda adding my 2 cents to the question of why.



Anyway I voted for Sonic 3K, fight me on that instead.

 

[AstroOhHey]

I adore just about all these games but had to go with DKC:TF! There's stuff I prefer in DKC2 to it (atmosphere, animal buddies, K. Rool) but overall it's the superior platformer.

Sonic Mania, SMB3, Super Metroid, SotN and Yoshi's Island are very close runnerups for me.

 

[Beanstar40]

Super Mario world was the first game I ever played on our families Super Nintendo, i still play that game every year almost 30 years later. The level design is timeless and impeccable, the visuals have a ton vibrant personality, and the power ups like the cape are challenging to learn but so satisfying once you master them. I also think it hid its secrets and extra content better than any mario game since. It was a tough call between this and dkc 2 for me, because I also adore that game, but i definitely have to go with mario world in terms of impact on the genre .



My dark horse pick is rayman origins

 

[Lant_War]

It's very easily Sonic Mania for me, particularly with Plus fixing the remaining issues of the base game

 

[Ripfeld89]

It's really tough to make a comparison between such a wide variety of great games, nearly all of them in some ways the very best in their respective micro-genres, I have fond memories with pretty much all of them, but Hollow Knight stands out as an immaculately designed masterpiece on every front that made an emotional impact on me from start to finish.

 

[Tamantayoshi]

Dk is up there but probably yoshi followed by celeste for me (not including metroidvanias at least).

 

[Megafan96]

Wario land 4 is the hidden gem here

goin down in legend for cooking on page one
it's tough for me to say either Wario Land 4 or Touhou Luna Nights, but I'll give the slight edge to Wario.

 

[Mekanos]

Wario Land 4 isn't even the third best Wario Land

 

[xtoc]

I voted super metroid because its the greatest gamenof all time. But doesnt fit with ypur question. I would go with dkc2 or super mario world.

The importance of music in games is here as well.

 

[dingbat]

It's between Rayman Legends, Celeste and (not on the poll) N++ for me. Hard to say which one I'd choose over the other. I'd probably give a different answer every time I'm asked.

I double dipped to play N++ on Switch recently and it really is a phenomenal game.

 

[Bulgowski]

Hollow Knight, Symphony of the Night and Super Metroid are three of my favorite games of all time but I don't really consider them platformers despite obviously having elements of the genre.

I went with Rayman Legends. Amazing level design, great sense of locomotion, creative approach to boss design through it's phenomenal music stages and excellent soundtrack/ sound design.

 

[Cara]

It is Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze not "Tropical Freeze".

Please show some respect for the GOAT.

 

[correojon]

Glad to see that my top picks are #1 and #2, Fami has good taste

I'm actually kind of surprised at how strong the backlash to the Metroidvanias is. What do y'all think makes a game a platformer? These are games where you navigate the world and avoid obstacles by running and jumping. Some of them have way more involved platforming than games I guarantee would no question be called platformers. Though then again, I had also thought Metroidvania was generally accepted as a subgenre of platformers no different from how Mario, Celeste, and Mega Man all belong to different subgenres with their own structural and mechanical differences.

Maybe it's that they're usually more in the style of a 3D platformer like Mario 64 which is about exploration and traversal through movement moreso than the constant risk of falling to your death in an obstacle course, and maybe that's an issue for some people? But they're not unique in that regard, a lot of platformers that are more about the challenge of controlling the character than the challenge of the level end up feeling similar.

I think that when cataloguing games into genres, we have to focus on the core experience of the game. In the case of platformers, that is jumping, running and moving around obstacles in a very involved way; There is no larger goal other than getting past the obstacle. Once you get past all of them you reach the end of the level. In Metroidvanias platforming is much less involved and are just a means to an end, but no the end itself. You're basically platforming as a side activity that often doesn't require your full attention, while part of your brain is dedicated to creating a path between higher-level places in the map and looking around for secrets. The focus is on exploration, not in platforming. Metroidvanias can have small instances where all the focus is put on platforming (or in combat) but these are often events that happen just once and don't constitute 1% of the game, so using them to represent the game's genre is not a good idea.

Think about it the other way around: In Metroidvanias you often have to pass through the same rooms several times. For once, this requires making the platforming challenges found there less complex, because the player should be able to get through them in both directions, you never know what room they are coming from. And most importantly, if the challenges are really complex then navigating the world would become really tedious: Most good Metroidvanias shine when at the end of the game you can blaze from one spot of the map to the opposite one with all the cool skills you have unlocked. Now, imagine if instead you had a MeatBoy-like challenge in every room and you needed several tries EVERY TIME you wanted to pass through that room.

So Metroidvanias as a whole can't be put together with "pure" platformers like Mario or Celeste. Super Metroid, SotN or Hollow Knoght are NOT about platforming, they are about exploration. I would even say that, specially for SotN and HK, COMBAT is much a more defining part fo the games that platforming. But SOME Metroidvanias can maybe make a case; It's been years since I've played it but I remember the first Ori being somewhat linear with a VERY strong focus on platforming. I think the Guacamelée games are a similar case, they both have very prevalent linear platforming sections and the basic platforming to move around the world is more involved. Note that this is done at the cost of having much simpler exploration than Super Metroid or HK, as proof that a heavy focus on exploration can't coexist with involved platforming, as you're trying to pull the game in opposite directions.

A long time ago I tried to make a Metroidvania with Jumper (a MeatBoy-like indie platformer by the creator of Celeste) style platforming. When I tested it I found that navigating the world was absolutely horrible: Trying to get from A to B to get the next powerup was incredibly tedious. If you put a very difficult challenge in your game you need to reward the player once they beat them. When you beat a boss in Dark Souls you instantly get a ton of souls and unlock the way forward, when you beat a Celeste level you instantly unlock the next one...But if you beat a very difficult challenge and your reward is only another one, and you need to beat like 6 in a row to get to the next powerup then it's impossible to keep the player engaged. In Celeste, the goal is getting past the level, but in a Metroidvania the goal is getting to a place often far away in the map, so the level of challenge and the rewards in your game will quickly become disconnected if every step is a huge ordeal.

 

[Stilt Village]

Wario Land 4 isn't even the third best Wario Land

Absolutely unhinged take tbh.

Glad to see that my top picks are #1 and #2, Fami has good taste

I think that when cataloguing games into genres, we have to focus on the core experience of the game. In the case of platformers, that is jumping, running and moving around obstacles in a very involved way; There is no larger goal other than getting past the obstacle. Once you get past all of them you reach the end of the level. In Metroidvanias platforming is much less involved and are just a means to an end, but no the end itself. You're basically platforming as a side activity that often doesn't require your full attention, while part of your brain is dedicated to creating a path between higher-level places in the map and looking around for secrets. The focus is on exploration, not in platforming. Metroidvanias can have small instances where all the focus is put on platforming (or in combat) but these are often events that happen just once and don't constitute 1% of the game, so using them to represent the game's genre is not a good idea.

Think about it the other way around: In Metroidvanias you often have to pass through the same rooms several times. For once, this requires making the platforming challenges found there less complex, because the player should be able to get through them in both directions, you never know what room they are coming from. And most importantly, if the challenges are really complex then navigating the world would become really tedious: Most good Metroidvanias shine when at the end of the game you can blaze from one spot of the map to the opposite one with all the cool skills you have unlocked. Now, imagine if instead you had a MeatBoy-like challenge in every room and you needed several tries EVERY TIME you wanted to pass through that room.

So Metroidvanias as a whole can't be put together with "pure" platformers like Mario or Celeste. Super Metroid, SotN or Hollow Knoght are NOT about platforming, they are about exploration. I would even say that, specially for SotN and HK, COMBAT is much a more defining part fo the games that platforming. But SOME Metroidvanias can maybe make a case; It's been years since I've played it but I remember the first Ori being somewhat linear with a VERY strong focus on platforming. I think the Guacamelée games are a similar case, they both have very prevalent linear platforming sections and the basic platforming to move around the world is more involved. Note that this is done at the cost of having much simpler exploration than Super Metroid or HK, as proof that a heavy focus on exploration can't coexist with involved platforming, as you're trying to pull the game in opposite directions.

A long time ago I tried to make a Metroidvania with Jumper (a MeatBoy-like indie platformer by the creator of Celeste) style platforming. When I tested it I found that navigating the world was absolutely horrible: Trying to get from A to B to get the next powerup was incredibly tedious. If you put a very difficult challenge in your game you need to reward the player once they beat them. When you beat a boss in Dark Souls you instantly get a ton of souls and unlock the way forward, when you beat a Celeste level you instantly unlock the next one...But if you beat a very difficult challenge and your reward is only another one, and you need to beat like 6 in a row to get to the next powerup then it's impossible to keep the player engaged. In Celeste, the goal is getting past the level, but in a Metroidvania the goal is getting to a place often far away in the map, so the level of challenge and the rewards in your game will quickly become disconnected if every step is a huge ordeal.

I don't disagree, in fact I have played a demo of an upcoming game that essentially tries to turn Celeste into a Metroidvania, A Sister's Journey, and the results were exactly as awkward and painful as you might expect. In fact, I think games like Hollow Knight and Axiom Verge already run into the exact same problem of getting from room to room being such an ordeal due to the difficulty that it stifles the exploration element. Even Metroid Prime 2, to some extent, because it makes simply backtracking from place to place way too complicated with paths that criss-cross dimensions.

But then... The exact same principle of focusing on exploration and needing to be able to cross through most areas repeatedly from different directions also applies to a game like Mario Odyssey, and no one on earth would complain about that being here if I removed "2D" from the title.

The first Ori (never played the sequel), by the way, totally should have just been a pure platformer. Not so much because the Metroidvania elements get in the way as because things like combat and exploration were so rudimentary that they might as well have not been there and weren't worth the resources devoted to them. I feel similarly about Touhou Luna Nights, a game I really enjoyed, but the exploration amounts to a path split in each area to get an item or key and then come back to fight the boss, along with a handful of hidden power-ups that you mostly end up coming back for at the end of the game because you only visit each area once but you won't be able to get a lot of them your first time through. It could have been level-based and not lost much of any importance, while gaining better balance as an action game by dropping the minimal RPG elements, which would make the boss rush in particular way more enjoyable. And if they had done any more with the exploration it would have quickly become intolerable, because the enemies and hazards are dangerous and it has much more involved platforming challenges than most games of its kind that make even this tiny amount of backtracking a bit of a pain. But I suppose all of that is neither here nor there.

I will say, I think it can be completely fine to do actual platformer level design like that in a Metroidvania, and it's even necessary to some extent. Castlevania's rooms with just enemies can get quite boring, all the puzzles and movement challenges Metroid games have liven things up considerably. The problem is you need to negate it on the way back. Either by putting it in a corner and providing a shortcut out, so you never have to go back there to begin with, or making it so the next time you come through your new abilities trivialize it. 2D Metroid is great about this with things like the Space Jump-Screw Attack-Speed Booster combo. I think Metroid Prime games suffer from this a lot on the other hand because the level design is so complex for a Metroidvania, but you don't get a lot of powerful new weapons and movement abilities, so backtracking through an old area doesn't get much easier or faster at the end of the game than it was at the start besides negating the risk of dying.

 

[Mekanos]

Absolutely unhinged take tbh.

not as unhinged as putting Metroidvanias in this poll

 

[Stilt Village]

not as unhinged as putting Metroidvanias in this poll

I'm a visionary. I'm preaching tolerance of the marginalized and different, like Jesus.

Or maybe I'm forcing the haughty Metroidvanias to coexist with the unwashed hop and bop masses beneath them, it's hard to tell.

 

[korok]

Tropical Freeze for me, but Celeste is a close second.

About the genre discussion, I will put it this way: if someone asks me for a 2D platformer recomendation, I would never say the name of a metroidvania game, because I would be misdirecting that person. The gameplay loop and structure is very different. Now, I understand that with games, rigid categories don't always work, because they include a lot of elemments from different ones. But there is always a main genre where they fit better.

The same way I don't think that being able to drive in a game makes it a driving game or having to walk long distances makes it a walking simulator, I don't think metroidvanias can be mixed with 2 platformers. But that's me. I can understand other opinions.

 

[correojon]

I don't disagree, in fact I have played a demo of an upcoming game that essentially tries to turn Celeste into a Metroidvania, A Sister's Journey, and the results were exactly as awkward and painful as you might expect. In fact, I think games like Hollow Knight and Axiom Verge already run into the exact same problem of getting from room to room being such an ordeal due to the difficulty that it stifles the exploration element. Even Metroid Prime 2, to some extent, because it makes simply backtracking from place to place way too complicated with paths that criss-cross dimensions.

But then... The exact same principle of focusing on exploration and needing to be able to cross through most areas repeatedly from different directions also applies to a game like Mario Odyssey, and no one on earth would complain about that being here if I removed "2D" from the title.

True, but Mario Oddyssey is not a Metroidvania, it's a platformer (non-linear, exploration-based, called whatever you like). It has distinctly separated levels, it doesn't require any backtracking at all to progress, it's filled with linear one-time platforming challenges, you don't expand your moveset...It takes platforming and recontextualizes it in big non-linear levels, but you still interact with the game through your basic platforming skills. The objective is still to go through isolated platforming challenges and get an instant reward once you beat them. There's no long-term plan, you just beat a challenge, get a moon and move on to the next one. Having 10, 20 or 30 moons before attempting a challenge makes no difference at all, you can take on all the challenges in whatever order and the experience is the same. All these things make all the difference. You're taking the non-defining characteristic from Oddyseey (exploration) and using it to justify the inclusion of games that share that secondary characteristic, as it that made their platforming being at the same level of importance.

The first Ori (never played the sequel), by the way, totally should have just been a pure platformer. Not so much because the Metroidvania elements get in the way as because things like combat and exploration were so rudimentary that they might as well have not been there and weren't worth the resources devoted to them. I feel similarly about Touhou Luna Nights, a game I really enjoyed, but the exploration amounts to a path split in each area to get an item or key and then come back to fight the boss, along with a handful of hidden power-ups that you mostly end up coming back for at the end of the game because you only visit each area once but you won't be able to get a lot of them your first time through. It could have been level-based and not lost much of any importance, while gaining better balance as an action game by dropping the minimal RPG elements, which would make the boss rush in particular way more enjoyable. And if they had done any more with the exploration it would have quickly become intolerable, because the enemies and hazards are dangerous and it has much more involved platforming challenges than most games of its kind that make even this tiny amount of backtracking a bit of a pain. But I suppose all of that is neither here nor there.

100% agree with everything you say about Touhou Luna Nights, the game would've been much worse if exploration had been expanded following its current formula. It's an amazing game but I would never recommend it to someone who explicitly asks for a Metroidvania... just as I would never recommend SotN to someone looking explicitly for a platformer

I will say, I think it can be completely fine to do actual platformer level design like that in a Metroidvania, and it's even necessary to some extent. Castlevania's rooms with just enemies can get quite boring, all the puzzles and movement challenges Metroid games have liven things up considerably. The problem is you need to negate it on the way back. Either by putting it in a corner and providing a shortcut out, so you never have to go back there to begin with, or making it so the next time you come through your new abilities trivialize it. 2D Metroid is great about this with things like the Space Jump-Screw Attack-Speed Booster combo. I think Metroid Prime games suffer from this a lot on the other hand because the level design is so complex for a Metroidvania, but you don't get a lot of powerful new weapons and movement abilities, so backtracking through an old area doesn't get much easier or faster at the end of the game than it was at the start besides negating the risk of dying.

That's why when good Metroidvanias do something more involved, it's often a special event that you only have to go through once, like the EMMI sections in Metroid Dread, the escape sections in Ori, or the White Palace in HK (while pure platformers are built almost exclusively of this). They are done only once and they are used sparsely, as highlights to break the monotomy of "standard" rooms like you say. They need to be handled with care. It's like if you made every room very distinct, each with different aesthetics and landmarks, exploration would suffer a lot, because when all rooms are special...none is! It would be impossible for the player to remember every room. That would as bad for exploration as making every room a Celeste-level platforming challenge. Instead, the rooms in a Metroidvania are often grouped into regions with a unified theme and only a couple of rooms have something special to make them stand out. This way the player only has to remember these rooms and he can make an approximate mental map of the world, which is the most important thing in these games: Good Metroidvanias often ask you to determine where you need to go and how to get there.

 

[AngryAlchemist]

According to this poll, there is a 71% chance the best 2d platformer of all time is first party

Edit: Wowwwww ... and this is the 71th reply!

 

[Bait02]

Super Mario Bros 3

+ unpopular take:

DKC Returns > Tropical Freeze

 

[Christo750]

I’ve already been spoken for in the Metroid and Castlevania debate, so I’ll just say that I voted for Tropical Freeze and was very happy to see that most others did too.

 

[Nabbit]

Out of the list, Pizza Tower. Movement feels absolutely superb and the level design is expertly crafted. P-ranks are some of the most fun adrenaline rushes I've ever had with a game; on the whole, a gimmicky as hell level like Golf feeling as natural to P-rank as any other is a testament to just how much care went into the game design. 5 years of waiting well spent.

@AngryAlchemist
I can't tell from vids, is the game possible to play at a less fast pace? I don't mind running in a platformer like time trials in Rayman Origins, but some parts seem like Sonic-esque levels of speed.

 

[chocolate_supra]

+ unpopular take:

DKC Returns > Tropical Freeze

more unpopular take:

DKC2 > both of them

*runs away*

 

[Bait02]

more unpopular take:

DKC2 > both of them

*runs away*

Fair, I've never actually put a reasoneable amount of hours to fully appreciate it.

I will though, sooner or later

 

[Tailzo]

In the 16-bit era it was Sonic 3 & Knuckles. But I can see why it is not winning by a landslide in the poll, since that is in reality two games combined into one.

 

[Brock Reiher]

Kirby dream land 1, but if super metroid counts then metroid

 

[Paxie]

@AngryAlchemist
I can't tell from vids, is the game possible to play at a less fast pace? I don't mind running in a platformer like time trials in Rayman Origins, but some parts seem like Sonic-esque levels of speed.

You're completely invincible in levels, the only fail states are the timer running out during the escape sequence and losing all your HP in bosses (which are generally slower paced)

 

[chocolate_supra]

In the 16-bit era it was Sonic 3 & Knuckles. But I can see why it is not winning by a landslide in the poll, since that is in reality two games combined into one.

eeehhhh, not to nitpick but it was actually one game split in half. The whole thing was initially planned to be Sonic 3, but they literally ran out of room on the Genesis cart due to asset fidelity/quantity and just how big they were making the levels. The scope they were working with also stretched out dev time so to keep a timely release and make sure they didn't have to compromise on assets or level size, they decided to split the game in half and release the two halves in the same year, with the lock-on cartridge being developed specifically so you could play the full game as it was originally intended. But then marketing (at least in the States, can't speak for the rest of the world) treated them as two separate releases and talked about the lock-on like it was some amazing new tech, rather than a way to play the full game all as one.

So yeah, for years it was thought of as two separate games because that's how it was released, but that's not how it was planned and designed. So ever since they told that story about how it was developed I've considered 3K to be one game, and the "true" form of both.

 

[Christo750]

Super Mario Bros 3

+ unpopular take:

DKC Returns > Tropical Freeze

I’ve seen this a few different times and I have a hunch but I’m wondering why you think that

 

[Linkstrikesback]

eeehhhh, not to nitpick but it was actually one game split in half. The whole thing was initially planned to be Sonic 3, but they literally ran out of room on the Genesis cart due to asset fidelity/quantity and just how big they were making the levels. The scope they were working with also stretched out dev time so to keep a timely release and make sure they didn't have to compromise on assets or level size, they decided to split the game in half and release the two halves in the same year, with the lock-on cartridge being developed specifically so you could play the full game as it was originally intended. But then marketing (at least in the States, can't speak for the rest of the world) treated them as two separate releases and talked about the lock-on like it was some amazing new tech, rather than a way to play the full game all as one.

So yeah, for years it was thought of as two separate games because that's how it was released, but that's not how it was planned and designed. So ever since they told that story about how it was developed I've considered 3K to be one game, and the "true" form of both.

The sonic 3 and knuckles is too large for a cartridge thing simply isn't true. They might not have wanted to spring for a cartridge that would have had the largest size available for use on genesis/Megadrive, as well as allow for saving, but they could have done it.

The actual reasoning behind it was the game was delayed and so they shipped sonic 3 because of various marketing deals and in order to let them use cheaper cartridges while charging twice.

 

[Megafan96]

Wario Land 4 isn't even the third best Wario Land

You're right! It isn't the third best Wario Land! It's the first!

 

[Gartooth]

The 16 bit generation was crazy. So many different kinds of games but all that feel perfected and top of their craft. Mario World, Yoshi's Island, DKC2, Sonic 3&K, Mega Man X, and the list goes on.

I'm going to vote Tropical Freeze as the all time GOAT, even though some days I prefer DKC2 as my favorite DK game. DKCTF feels like the truest representation of what a modern classic for the 2D platformer genre is, and one that I could put proudly on the shelf with the height of the 2D platformer's dominance in the late 80s to mid 90s. Tropical Freeze goes beyond what DKC could be on SNES in a way that I don't think many of the "2D platformer renaissance" games attempted for their respective franchises.

 

[Weiss]

Wario Land 3, as detailed in this essay by a cool smart person.

The Failproof Platforming of Wario Land 3

This week I completed a sequential playthrough of the four Game Boy Wario Land titles (affectionately dubbed the Warathon), and came away with an important discovery: Wario Land 3 is so dang good, y'all. I mean, I knew that already and so did you, but y'know. Can't hurt to remind myself. The...

famiboards.com

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

I can only assume that the people who didn't vote for Tropical Freeze were intimidated by @ngpdrew and had to pick an alternative.

 

[ngpdrew]

I can only assume that the people who didn't vote for Tropical Freeze were intimidated by @ngpdrew and had to pick an alternative.

Not all heroes wear capes, and they sure as shit don't wear ties.

 

[chocolate_supra]

The sonic 3 and knuckles is too large for a cartridge thing simply isn't true. They might not have wanted to spring for a cartridge that would have had the largest size available for use on genesis/Megadrive, as well as allow for saving, but they could have done it.

???

How Sonic 3 Became Two Separate Games

Sonic Team's Takashi Iizuka gives the story of how Sonic & Knuckles' famous lock-on technology came into existence.

www.gameinformer.com

"The cartridge sizes were limited in space, so we were finding out that not only did we have these obligations to get the content out at a certain time, but we also couldn't get this massive game that we wanted to make onto the space that the cart would allow," Iizuka says.

Sonic Team reluctantly cut the game in half to satisfy these requirements, but the developers didn't want the resulting two games to feel like two distinct experiences. The team brainstormed ways to make two separate cartridges feel like one seamless experience.

Takashi Iizuka, head of Sonic Team, said they couldn't fit the whole game on the cart.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

???

How Sonic 3 Became Two Separate Games

Sonic Team's Takashi Iizuka gives the story of how Sonic & Knuckles' famous lock-on technology came into existence.

www.gameinformer.com

Takashi Iizuka, head of Sonic Team, said they couldn't fit the whole game on the cart.

My friend, they can say what they like, we know what the filesizes of the games on the cartridges are and they're two 2mb cartridges, and the roms for either game don't come close to using the whole cartridge , and the Megadrive supported double that, so they're not telling the truth.

 

[MCeleste]

Tropical Freezers we are winning

 

[Bait02]

I’ve seen this a few different times and I have a hunch but I’m wondering why you think that

Probably I think I like more DKCR shorter, levels, I find them more focused and generally faster paced.

Also I think some has to do with the fact TF levels are designed to work with multiple movesets, while Returns is completely focused on DK + Diddy roll and hover.

So it's mostly due to personal preference, in terms of creativity I like both more or less equally, TF has the soundtrack as a plus side.

 

[psilex]

No offense towards Super Mario World for being the runner-up on this poll, but after doing another playthrough of it and SMB3 back to back it's hard for me to call it the best 2D platformer. The game is truly great but I find that its predecessor on the NES offers better theming and more creative level design overall and that just brings it down a notch for me.

 

[Nabbit]

You're completely invincible in levels, the only fail states are the timer running out during the escape sequence and losing all your HP in bosses (which are generally slower paced)

Thanks. Are the levels like Sonic levels of fast though? I tried 2D Sonic this year and it kinda gives me a headache.

 

[AngryAlchemist]

@AngryAlchemist
I can't tell from vids, is the game possible to play at a less fast pace? I don't mind running in a platformer like time trials in Rayman Origins, but some parts seem like Sonic-esque levels of speed.

I was having a hard time answering this which is why I took a while to reply, but

Thanks. Are the levels like Sonic levels of fast though? I tried 2D Sonic this year and it kinda gives me a headache.

If what you're worried about is purely the speed, I wouldn't recommend the game. Yeah you can't do most of a level just fine going slow, but the game does have a pretty big emphasis on speed and encourages you to go fast, and by the end of the game there are gimmicks based around going fast where you probably wouldn't be able to complete some levels. Even as someone who doesn't get bothered by a game going super fast, I've definitely had some moments where it's hard to track what's going on on-screen if I'm a little tired because the game is very fast paced with a lot of moving parts. I'd probably say it's even faster than Sonic on average even, though that's trying to play the game how it was meant to be played, you could probably get away with playing a lot of the levels slowly. Even then though, every level requires you to backtrack to the beginning of the stage while a timer is going down and if you fail you lose and have to restart the level.

Sorry

 

[Nabbit]

I was having a hard time answering this which is why I took a while to reply, but


If what you're worried about is purely the speed, I wouldn't recommend the game. Yeah you can't do most of a level just fine going slow, but the game does have a pretty big emphasis on speed and encourages you to go fast, and by the end of the game there are gimmicks based around going fast where you probably wouldn't be able to complete some levels. Even as someone who doesn't get bothered by a game going super fast, I've definitely had some moments where it's hard to track what's going on on-screen if I'm a little tired because the game is very fast paced with a lot of moving parts. I'd probably say it's even faster than Sonic on average even, though that's trying to play the game how it was meant to be played, you could probably get away with playing a lot of the levels slowly. Even then though, every level requires you to backtrack to the beginning of the stage while a timer is going down and if you fail you lose and have to restart the level.

Sorry

No worries at all I greatly appreciate your detailed and thoughtful reply and there are so many great games out there to play that I totally understand not every one is going to be a good fit for me. Thanks, truly! You saved me wondering.

 

[Tailzo]

eeehhhh, not to nitpick but it was actually one game split in half. The whole thing was initially planned to be Sonic 3, but they literally ran out of room on the Genesis cart due to asset fidelity/quantity and just how big they were making the levels. The scope they were working with also stretched out dev time so to keep a timely release and make sure they didn't have to compromise on assets or level size, they decided to split the game in half and release the two halves in the same year, with the lock-on cartridge being developed specifically so you could play the full game as it was originally intended. But then marketing (at least in the States, can't speak for the rest of the world) treated them as two separate releases and talked about the lock-on like it was some amazing new tech, rather than a way to play the full game all as one.

So yeah, for years it was thought of as two separate games because that's how it was released, but that's not how it was planned and designed. So ever since they told that story about how it was developed I've considered 3K to be one game, and the "true" form of both.

Yeah, I kinda knew about that. And you make a good point. I guess it should count then.

 

[Earthbounder]

It's absolutely wild Donkey Kong Country 2 is currently struggling to make the Top 5 when it is, in fact, the correct answer to the poll.

You've got this one wrong, Fami.

 

[Rampo360]

Tropical Freeze for me, closely followed by NSMBU+LuigiU for me. I loved SMB3 as a kid but it's surpassed by those two. I appreciate SMW but never clicked for me. As for the old DKC games, they were pretty impressive back then but always found them too difficult after the first two worlds, especially 2.

 

[Christo750]

Probably I think I like more DKCR shorter, levels, I find them more focused and generally faster paced.

Also I think some has to do with the fact TF levels are designed to work with multiple movesets, while Returns is completely focused on DK + Diddy roll and hover.

So it's mostly due to personal preference, in terms of creativity I like both more or less equally, TF has the soundtrack as a plus side.

interesting. i do think DKCR is more like DKC1 than anything else and Tropical Freeze is more of a departure from it all.

i haven't played DKCR in like 10 years so maybe i'm due for a replay soon.