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Serious What’s everyone’s opinion on gaming company using Ai.
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Raccoon
Fox Brigade
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there's a member here trying to accomplish that iirc
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7threst
Hello, lady of the house speaking?
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For labourous tasks? AI is fine.
However, I HATE seeing all these AI-models being trained on existing texts, art and sounds without proper credits. It's just thievery from techbro's like Sam Altmann and I cannot stress enough how much I hate that these companies just seem to get away with it, making loads of money on the work other people did. Also, AI will never substitute creativity.
However, I HATE seeing all these AI-models being trained on existing texts, art and sounds without proper credits. It's just thievery from techbro's like Sam Altmann and I cannot stress enough how much I hate that these companies just seem to get away with it, making loads of money on the work other people did. Also, AI will never substitute creativity.
spekkeh
THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY
It's unavoidable, automatization has been a key part of the industry from the beginning and this too will find its place. We can decry having lost the experts who can write machine code, but at some point the tooling needs to mature to be able to do more. Yes we're losing the person who handpositioned all the key frames, like we lost artists when they invented rigging, but the upside is that in the near future you can scan an actor and let AI do the animating, so you have a new fully functional character within two days, and you can suddenly have a whole crowd of believable people in your game instead of only a few NPCs.
There's a moral problem when it comes to training AI, but it's not that far away from creators uploading free assets to the unity store. It puts other artists out of a job, but it greatly helps indie developers creating game.
There's a moral problem when it comes to training AI, but it's not that far away from creators uploading free assets to the unity store. It puts other artists out of a job, but it greatly helps indie developers creating game.
I would posit that there is a gaping chasm of difference between creators willingly making free assets for the Unity store and an AI model scrubbing everything it can from thousands upon thousands of artists.
PixelKnight
Observing the process
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Artists willingly uploading free assets for artists to share is a world away from unlicensed, en-masse art scraping done by AI engines that is then packaged, monetised and sold.
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Manggei
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I'm absolutely not educated when it comes to tech and I'm not an artist either.
Nevertheless, my humble opinion is, I would rather not leave artistic or philosophical paths born from an empathic, vision driven human mind to AI.
For troubleshooting, code optimisation and performance and IQ stuff, I think it should work quite well. Could reduce workloads from teams, maybe shorter development times and less crunch? If this also means less bugs, framerate plummeting or annoying artifacts and better overall energy consumption / resource management with given CPU and GPU, it appears welcome. DLSS and the likes show that direction, I guess.
Nevertheless, my humble opinion is, I would rather not leave artistic or philosophical paths born from an empathic, vision driven human mind to AI.
For troubleshooting, code optimisation and performance and IQ stuff, I think it should work quite well. Could reduce workloads from teams, maybe shorter development times and less crunch? If this also means less bugs, framerate plummeting or annoying artifacts and better overall energy consumption / resource management with given CPU and GPU, it appears welcome. DLSS and the likes show that direction, I guess.
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First post said it all, I can see some creative use for creative people who may be using AI more for inspiration than implementation but I expect big studios will mostly push out AI generated content which makes the games have even less creative direction and profits will soar and jobs will be lost but because we 'the customers' expect too much from these poor studios.
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This is something I meant to touch on in my first post in the thread but forgot to, but nah, I'm not okay with this either. Some people will be happy as long as nothing AI generated ends up in the final product. Meanwhile companies will be cutting concept artists by the thousands and most customers will be none the wiser. This scares me
And I didn't even touch on the environmental cost of large language models, which is horrendous
Aufhebung RPG
History is tragedy becoming comedy
This is my concern, that AI involvement in the conceptual phase of creation is still an "overrated" area, as AI is not really capable of generating original concepts on its own, but rather can only be used to generate new concepts by learning and disassembling the creations of human artists.
MarcelRguez
Typefaces enjoyer
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Y'know, I sort of resent the narrative of "AI is ok when applied to laborious labor", because I've seen how computer-assisted translation (not machine translation, different thing) has been used to undervalue and homogenize the entire field, to the detriment of both the workers and the quality of the final product. Corporations just cannot be trusted to implement new technologies in a humane, worker-friendly way.
spekkeh
THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY
I agree with you deontologically. Consequentially, it's a lot closer. Art gets devalued, people lose their livelihood.
I think AI art that's scrubbed from non-CC sources should be legally watermarked, but as usual governments are so tech illiterate by the moment they think of something it's already too late to do something about it.
I also think we're kind of hypocrites, we draw the line at painters and graphical artists, but all the environment, motion and interaction artists that have been AI'ed away we say eh, should have chosen a different profession.
Aufhebung RPG
History is tragedy becoming comedy
DLSS's use of AI is one of the absolute positive cases that has allowed the gaming industry to evolve away from the useless hardware-graphics race, but I definitely don't think that human creativity has any potential to be replaced by AI at this point in time, and I don't want to rehash meaningless Enlightenment humanist doctrines, I just think that the current aggressive exploration of AI by major gaming companies is due to nothing more than the fact that the cost of the unlimited stacking of mega-videogames over the first two generations is high, and that gaming companies are seeking new avenues to reduce their costs and that once they've accomplished their goal it's going to be a case of further massive job loss.
I'm not a "Humanist Marxist", I'm just talking about the huge costs of structural change. Mass unemployment, whereby a large number of unemployed people become the reserve army of a new industry, is something that happens with every technological revolution, and it's not a question of right or wrong, but rather of the fact that capitalism is indeed producing its own crises by means of a number of technological revolutions.
juuso
Koopa
I do not oppose AI per se, and especially not machine learning. What I do find problematic is that the current wave of particularly large models are trained on data (images, music, videos, text, etc.) without the consent of the original creators of that data, essentially stealing the work of everyone for the benefit of a handful of big tech companies and those that own them.
I cannot predict where these models will go in the long run, but already I think there are societal issues far larger than the game industry. You can look at AI in the tradition of automation and say that it's just automation of creative tasks we've traditionally considered too human to automate, but the key difference is that contemporary AI is nothing without the data it's been trained on, and the people that have generated the data are those who will be laid off because AI will do their work cheaper. Hooray!
There are, undeniably, creative implications too. When your processes become more and more tied to algorithmic realities, the results will become more tied to what people seem to want instead of what they actually need. There will be fewer surprises. In some ways this is already happening with triple A development converging towards similar practises with loot boxes, battle passes and so on. It's just happening at a higher level due to human actions based on whatever KPIs the companies are following to make more money.
I cannot predict where these models will go in the long run, but already I think there are societal issues far larger than the game industry. You can look at AI in the tradition of automation and say that it's just automation of creative tasks we've traditionally considered too human to automate, but the key difference is that contemporary AI is nothing without the data it's been trained on, and the people that have generated the data are those who will be laid off because AI will do their work cheaper. Hooray!
There are, undeniably, creative implications too. When your processes become more and more tied to algorithmic realities, the results will become more tied to what people seem to want instead of what they actually need. There will be fewer surprises. In some ways this is already happening with triple A development converging towards similar practises with loot boxes, battle passes and so on. It's just happening at a higher level due to human actions based on whatever KPIs the companies are following to make more money.
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I do agree with this. Even if there are theoretically ethical applications, execs absolutely cannot be trusted to restrain themselves. The technology is moving way faster than old clueless politicians can keep up with (though unfortunately most of them would probably support it anyway), so regulations have no hope of keeping up.
ammonite
agent chieftain here
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I actually spoke to a developer last week at a party who had been part of the very small team (Three people I believe?) porting a reasonably well-known game first released on Steam to consoles, and he said whilst he’d never use AI for creative tasks, when performing jobs like that, it sped up the process and allowed them to hit their deadline with a small team, allowing the majority of the company to work on other projects and original games.
I don’t want to experience art made by a computer. But if it’s a tool to help free workers with souls up to do the creative tasks, I’m all for it.
I don’t want to experience art made by a computer. But if it’s a tool to help free workers with souls up to do the creative tasks, I’m all for it.
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Programming is an art. But also we need to reconcile with the fact like 70% of the code you write is boilerplate, functionally needed framework that doesn't really do anything you want but it's still required for the cool software you want to write to happen.
Even before AI was a thing we were already trying to optimize writing that heavily. Has anyone used a UML to code converter? Those were super popular back in my day to generate the entire data model for you.
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Modern frameworks take away a lot of the boilerplate though. We don't need AI in order to replace that. Instead, AI's gonna replace the part of my job I actually like, and I'm gonna be left with the horrible tasks of maintaining it and fixing bugs.
(I don't actually think AI will advance to this level within my career. But I definitely think it will fundamentally change the field in the future. And the main impetus will once again be cost cutting, rather than making work better for the employees, since software developers are some of the most expensive workers in the US)
Kreeth
Cappy
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Sorry sorry, long message and personal story here, since both my dayjob and dreamjob are concerned. Nothing really important to add, just some sort of rant because I'm sick and sleepy, feel free to skip xD
The company I work for (for at least 3-4 more days before working full time as an artist so please buy my books when they're released) has made the shift to AI about 6-7 months ago. It's not a video game company, they have apps for HR people used by gigantic (and horrific) clients, and for now they're forcing the devs to use and nurrish it.
The QA side of the company I'm part of will be next in a few months, but as for the devs, they seem to enjoy it as a way to help them resolve problems faster when it comes to all the bugs reported. The AI looks for what could be the issues in uncommented lines of code written daily by countless of devs since the company started decades ago, and it makes their job faster and less heavy on the brain, which I think should be the one use for AI. They're not happy about not having to create new features, but for now they're still observing how things turn out.
The issue is the company is also firing a LOT of people to cut cost (me included), despite having made a billion € of benefits last year. And the endgoal is to make sure no "historic" dev in the company is vital. The old devs cost a lot of money, so replacing them with a couple of juniors who can use the knowledge put into the AI to do the same work is a big win for the people at the top. So big that all the people being fired are from the IT side, while they hire more and more people in the sales and marketing departments. All they do now is buy small companies with their product and list of clients, make people leave or fire them, and ask the devs left to just bug check with AI.
And as artist, I can tell you AI has already invaded many companies, not just video games for concept arts, but animation studios, the YA/serious adult book industry and board games publishers as well. I have NO idea what's going to happen to artists in big companies. I honestly fear we will go through a future where these companies only have one big Artist Lead with tiny teams they can parade around for publicity and awards.
HOWEVER, it also means small companies will show up, using the "made by humans" aspect as a major sellpoint. I see artists and friends I love already switching to self publishing after working for big studios. They go back to traditional medias, make zines and games together and attend conventions again, something a lot had given up on years ago (because we're old now). Money-wise, it SUCKS! I'm terrified of what my finances will be in a year or two. But there's a bit of hope that if we fight back doing what only we can do, we can find make a niche for ourselves with people proud and happy to support us.
If you're into AAA games or your dream is/was to get into these big companies, yeah, the future is freaking dark. But if you enjoy or at least are curious about indie art, please support these people, their creativity and freedom, remind them why you love what THEY do, and I can promise you, you'll find everything you want and more!
The company I work for (for at least 3-4 more days before working full time as an artist so please buy my books when they're released) has made the shift to AI about 6-7 months ago. It's not a video game company, they have apps for HR people used by gigantic (and horrific) clients, and for now they're forcing the devs to use and nurrish it.
The QA side of the company I'm part of will be next in a few months, but as for the devs, they seem to enjoy it as a way to help them resolve problems faster when it comes to all the bugs reported. The AI looks for what could be the issues in uncommented lines of code written daily by countless of devs since the company started decades ago, and it makes their job faster and less heavy on the brain, which I think should be the one use for AI. They're not happy about not having to create new features, but for now they're still observing how things turn out.
The issue is the company is also firing a LOT of people to cut cost (me included), despite having made a billion € of benefits last year. And the endgoal is to make sure no "historic" dev in the company is vital. The old devs cost a lot of money, so replacing them with a couple of juniors who can use the knowledge put into the AI to do the same work is a big win for the people at the top. So big that all the people being fired are from the IT side, while they hire more and more people in the sales and marketing departments. All they do now is buy small companies with their product and list of clients, make people leave or fire them, and ask the devs left to just bug check with AI.
And as artist, I can tell you AI has already invaded many companies, not just video games for concept arts, but animation studios, the YA/serious adult book industry and board games publishers as well. I have NO idea what's going to happen to artists in big companies. I honestly fear we will go through a future where these companies only have one big Artist Lead with tiny teams they can parade around for publicity and awards.
HOWEVER, it also means small companies will show up, using the "made by humans" aspect as a major sellpoint. I see artists and friends I love already switching to self publishing after working for big studios. They go back to traditional medias, make zines and games together and attend conventions again, something a lot had given up on years ago (because we're old now). Money-wise, it SUCKS! I'm terrified of what my finances will be in a year or two. But there's a bit of hope that if we fight back doing what only we can do, we can find make a niche for ourselves with people proud and happy to support us.
If you're into AAA games or your dream is/was to get into these big companies, yeah, the future is freaking dark. But if you enjoy or at least are curious about indie art, please support these people, their creativity and freedom, remind them why you love what THEY do, and I can promise you, you'll find everything you want and more!
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Performing Musicians have already felt the full blast of computer tech taking their jobs. It's to the point, where midi is nearly 99% indistinguishable from real instruments.
But that 1% makes a huge difference. You are probably going to see an uptick in doing AI, probably for the next decade. However, as people get used to the slop of AI, anything that pushes above and beyond, that difference will be staggering. Thats the reason that Nintendo has gone all in on instrumental Solos in their pieces. Now, MIDI is used supplementary, but we can safely say most big studios now use live orchestras. The same is for movies and TV shows too.
People will naturally realize that you cannot replace art like that.
It sucks that these companies will see so many "cost savings" and immediately cut jobs. So there is going to be an upheavel. But in the long term, I'm not really worried about it. Creative works will stand out eventually. The games that are possible to be made with AI will become so trivial that unless its a 10/10 idea, it's virtually going to be useless.
But that 1% makes a huge difference. You are probably going to see an uptick in doing AI, probably for the next decade. However, as people get used to the slop of AI, anything that pushes above and beyond, that difference will be staggering. Thats the reason that Nintendo has gone all in on instrumental Solos in their pieces. Now, MIDI is used supplementary, but we can safely say most big studios now use live orchestras. The same is for movies and TV shows too.
People will naturally realize that you cannot replace art like that.
It sucks that these companies will see so many "cost savings" and immediately cut jobs. So there is going to be an upheavel. But in the long term, I'm not really worried about it. Creative works will stand out eventually. The games that are possible to be made with AI will become so trivial that unless its a 10/10 idea, it's virtually going to be useless.
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Corporations need to be mindful of the energy consumption that comes from running AI models. Keep usage lean, to speedup repetitive tasks, and even improve power efficiency like DLSS. Wholesale replacing artists and programmers is unacceptable and I will not buy any product that is generated entirely by AI.
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the dream: AI takes over menial, mindless repetitive tasks so creative artists can focus on creating new, unique things that entertain us all!
the reality: some boardroom suit wearing money freak who hasn’t created anything or brought any joy to anyone’s life ever saying “wow we can increase our quarterly growth by 3% if we fire most of our humans and replace them with robots. Yeah I think I deserve a 7 figure bonus for this.”
the reality: some boardroom suit wearing money freak who hasn’t created anything or brought any joy to anyone’s life ever saying “wow we can increase our quarterly growth by 3% if we fire most of our humans and replace them with robots. Yeah I think I deserve a 7 figure bonus for this.”
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First of all, so sorry to hear that. That is goddamn gross.
But reading out the way you described what's happening there gave me another thought. Like this is pretty obvious but I never thought of it this way:
AI gives companies the ability to literally own their labor force.
What you said about them wanting to replace the long-time devs with AI so they can hire some cheap younguns and let the AI fill in the blanks of institutional knowledge? That basically removes any leverage any employee could have to stick around or even be hired again. The necessity to keep people around who know what they're doing, people who could take their knowledge and leave for better opportunities at any time, is gone when the company repositions around AI being the main labor, because then they own it. They can't own employees or their knowledge or skills, but they can own the AI.
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It depends on from where you are coming from. Like said, for me working in small teams with not too many resources it can help especially in the early stages. And for programming it is a very powerful tool, especially for people who are good in coding.
But yeah I‘m not blind and I see the negative impact it certainly has in a large scale. Personally I‘m not really a fan especially of Picture Generation.
I agree. My issue I think is just that there are many use cases with AI which can actually add up to art and design wich get lost in the discussion. Both in the question about the moral dilemma and even more so by Tech Bros.
Kreeth
Cappy
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Thank you so much
Fortunately I have enough contracts with art stuff to switch and focus on my work as an artist, but yeah it's strange to be fired for no other reason than a company wanting to save money.But yes, you're absolutely right! The endgoal really is to own the knowledge and skills through an AI system tied to the company without having to deal with having to pay people. That's why they need more people in marketing, they're the ones looking for clients and new products to buy, while the IT teams will become less and less relevant to the companies.
It's in a way close to what's happening with companies buying studios to get the IPs they need, while still laying off people because it was never about the workforce. The product attracts and sells and, with the right marketing campains, they can sell it easily no matter how it was produced.
Absolutely! AI isn't all evil at all. In the hands of someone who knows their job, it is a powerful tool that can help improve your skills and solve issues the human brain would have a hard time dealing with.
It becomes an issue the moment it's used by people who have no idea what the job really is (so called AI artists) and/or when it becomes a tool to make lots of money, really fast
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Suswave had a writeup in the General Thread a few days ago that probably belongs here:
EggmaniMN
Shriekbat
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If you think indie games aren't in trouble from this too think again. The flood of trash fake AI developed games (be it art, music or otherwise) on Steam that then end up on the console stores too is only going to continue to get worse, more and more and more games every day and companies like Valve don't care because they get a cut from even the smallest garbage. More games means more money for Gabe so keep em coming. And in the end that flood pushes the vast majority of real indie games down under the muck and out of sight, never to be seen again.
This flood of cheap trash knockoffs is how we got the first gaming crash and personally I'd like to avoid another one but people think that being able to have a filter on Steam means it's all fine. Boy it sure doesn't.
This flood of cheap trash knockoffs is how we got the first gaming crash and personally I'd like to avoid another one but people think that being able to have a filter on Steam means it's all fine. Boy it sure doesn't.
Marce-chan
Magical Girls <3
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If it meant making development optimized in a way that the team can work freely, take their time, and get a better salary, it'd be great! I mean, of course it'd make games more souless and eventually make games more and more similar, but I'm pretending I'm giving the benefit of the doubt.
But we all know it's not how it works. It'll "optimize" development as in making planners, designers, writers and etc lose their jobs, IF it makes development faster it'll still have crunch because reasons, handcrafted stuff will get bad propaganda as if it's obsolete just so corporations can squeeze every penny possible out of the developers work. And AI would come on top of that so they wouldn't have to hire more workers, or hire them for shorter periods, or even worse, make them accept even lower salaries out of fear of being replaced by AI.
I don't think there's any defense for Neil Druckman's words and I think they dismiss the work that designers, animators, writers, etc have as if literal machines are the future and their work is obsolete. But I mean, I wouldn't expect any good words coming from him... It's just a bit pathetic how I see many people either agreeing with this, starting to agree with this now that Neil said it or not agreeing but not calling him out because of some veneration of his image.
Edit: I know there are many AI based techniques that are great tools for game development, I'm not demonizing AI. I'm talking specifically about using AI to make the narratives/design and planning of games, which is what Neil is referencing.
Also gotta say I hope that the Sega games using it aren't the ones I'm interested to play. More specifically Atlus stuff but I can't imagine bearing AI made dialogues on the next Persona or SMT.
But we all know it's not how it works. It'll "optimize" development as in making planners, designers, writers and etc lose their jobs, IF it makes development faster it'll still have crunch because reasons, handcrafted stuff will get bad propaganda as if it's obsolete just so corporations can squeeze every penny possible out of the developers work. And AI would come on top of that so they wouldn't have to hire more workers, or hire them for shorter periods, or even worse, make them accept even lower salaries out of fear of being replaced by AI.
I don't think there's any defense for Neil Druckman's words and I think they dismiss the work that designers, animators, writers, etc have as if literal machines are the future and their work is obsolete. But I mean, I wouldn't expect any good words coming from him... It's just a bit pathetic how I see many people either agreeing with this, starting to agree with this now that Neil said it or not agreeing but not calling him out because of some veneration of his image.
Edit: I know there are many AI based techniques that are great tools for game development, I'm not demonizing AI. I'm talking specifically about using AI to make the narratives/design and planning of games, which is what Neil is referencing.
Also gotta say I hope that the Sega games using it aren't the ones I'm interested to play. More specifically Atlus stuff but I can't imagine bearing AI made dialogues on the next Persona or SMT.
Lucifer
Like Like
Just like other things such as the internet, social media, etc. It's a double edged sword that's going to bring positives and negatives. It's not going to be stopped.
All I can hope for is that it will help people with their jobs, in the ideal scenario we will move away from 40 hour work weeks because we can do our jobs quicker.
It also could be used to force people to create more output and help companies instead of people, which I'm dreading.
All I can hope for is that it will help people with their jobs, in the ideal scenario we will move away from 40 hour work weeks because we can do our jobs quicker.
It also could be used to force people to create more output and help companies instead of people, which I'm dreading.
Kreeth
Cappy
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Definitely, these games are the equivalent of the "AI artists" that are polluting the illustration and comics industry. Easy money done quick.
That's why earlier I was talking about how important the support from people is to the genuine (for a lack of a better word) indie creators. We can't count on Steam and other big companies to really care about this issue. At the end of the day, they get the games to fill the catalogs and I assume big publishers' games are selling well enough for them to be the priority.
If you find indie artists in any field you enjoy, and you want to help them keep on doing what they do, share, talk about it, support in any way you can. It won't make the problem go away mainstream-wise, but you get to make a niche where the artists you love keep on working safely, while you still get the art you enjoy.
PeachyLaCox
Cappy
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AI should be used for upscaling only.
Mer.Saloon
Tingle
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I can't help but wonder with this focus on AI, bots taking over parts of the internet, how important it will be to have local and regional IRL communities.
Adulfzen
Like Like
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generative AI is a blight on society as it ensures more and more people will lose their jobs while products are made more and more subpar all in the name of making the 1% richer while the planet keeps being set on fire.
You're a fucking idiot if you think there are any real tangible benefits as long we're living in a ultra capitalistic world where people basic needs aren't met.
The results as always will be more poverty, more deaths but hey it'll make the shareholders happy.
You're a fucking idiot if you think there are any real tangible benefits as long we're living in a ultra capitalistic world where people basic needs aren't met.
The results as always will be more poverty, more deaths but hey it'll make the shareholders happy.
PedroNavajas
Moblin
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Inevitable.
Dekuman
Gerudo
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As a tool I have no objections. To be honest AAA game development has increased labour inputs disproportionately to the point that I think it could be helpful.
That said I don't expect many developers to deploy it to help workers but to cut costs.
The challenge is really distinguishing between the two.
That said I don't expect many developers to deploy it to help workers but to cut costs.
The challenge is really distinguishing between the two.
totally agree
Too many swear words. I don't want to read it
I love technology and advancements. I love mechas, robots, cyborgs... and also artificial intelligence. I like AI-generated art, but that doesn't mean I like them all equally; just as with human art. If there is an image that I like then I don't care if it has been generated by AI or not; but of course by getting more information I can stop liking it or I can like it even more.
If I discover that an AI image I like has been generated by obtaining the data of a lesser-known artist, then I will not like the AI image as much as before. Just as if I discover that an image I like made by a human has been created by doing something bad, then I won't like it as much as before. It all depends.
I'm in between the two extremes, which is rare and makes me get a lot of hate.
If I discover that an AI image I like has been generated by obtaining the data of a lesser-known artist, then I will not like the AI image as much as before. Just as if I discover that an image I like made by a human has been created by doing something bad, then I won't like it as much as before. It all depends.
I'm in between the two extremes, which is rare and makes me get a lot of hate.
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The two extremes of... hyper-capitalistic environment-chewing widespread theft and people who want to keep their jobs and not have their work stolen?
No no, the extremes of liking AI-generated stuff and disliking AI-generated stuff. For example, I love the anime Plastic Memories and the game NieR:Automata. Both feature androids and both made me cry. In the future there will be very advanced androids, that is a fact. So I imagine an android drawing a picture. I like that idea; but I know that many people don't like it and those people surely hate or would hate androids since they would be able to draw.
Advances require sacrifices and this has always been seen. If we want technological advances, these things are going to happen. It took a lot of experiments and a lot of deaths to develop medications; today almost all of us use those medications. The same will happen (is already happening) with AI.
