OP
OP
Linkstrikesback
Bounty Hunter
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Metroid prime won't be whatever you're imagining. Nintendo already has splatoon for that kind of game
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Sales Data The Verge Doug Bowser interview: Metroid Dread sold 854k units in October in the US
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Metroid prime won't be whatever you're imagining. Nintendo already has splatoon for that kind of game
Haziqonfire
Toronto Wasteman
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Ha, I just grabbed it today. Already like it a lot so far. I’m glad Metroid: Dread is already off to a good start for Nintendo.
The compromises Metroid would have to make to be a 10 million seller would be awful. Metroid's particular USP that makes it so special to its fans also guarantees it'll never sell that.
D
Deleted member 645
Guest
Very happy for Metroid. At this point Nintendo are foolish not to revive all older franchises on switch. From a 1st party perspective every game is a guaranteed million plus seller. F-Zero, Wave Race, 1080, and Star Fox would all benefit. I know it’s a pipe dream but this could also extend the switch life some. DO IT!
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I mean the OP highlighted a specific part of the article and people are reacting to it, I don’t see the problem?
That joy-con bit is quite old news anyway.
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Even in forums I’ve felt I had to defend metroid against other Nintendo fans claiming the series wasn’t worth making etc.
SuperFakerBros
Anti-Artistic Integrity
Well this is the first time a Metroid game has been an actual notable seller since, what, the NES game? I don't think it was wrong to point out that Metroid was a rather niche franchise and thus it's understandable why it doesn't get the same treatment as their big ones. If anything, I'd say it was Metroid fans that were overzealous at how Metroid is being abandoned or betrayed or whatever. I'd argue Nintendo treated Metroid better than most other companies would've as most would've dropped a series like that, like how we're unlikely to get the sort of stuff Team Ico used to make from Sony
Trevelyan
Shriekbat
Wii had 2 Metroid games.
Magic-Man
Perseus Jackson
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Uhh, Metroid Prime was one of the best selling Gamecube titles lol
ArchedThunder
Uncle Beerus
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Could be around 2 million worldwide right now then.
I’m feeling really hopeful about 4-5 million lifetime.
I’m feeling really hopeful about 4-5 million lifetime.
Marce-chan
Magical Girls <3
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That sounds reasonable considering 850k US, ~200k France + Spain + UK and about... 180-200k in Japan?
Marce-chan
Magical Girls <3
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With the huuuuuge step Dread took for the franchise, MP1 remake next year and fresh new model shortly before release, I think MP4 can get somewhere in the 5-10m territory.
Marce-chan
Magical Girls <3
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I mean there's no way Prime 4 doesn't have an "adequate budget"... Solely because it'll be about 7 years of development considering the canned version and the 4-5 years at Retro.
Nintendo never reveals the budgets of their games but from development time alone this should be one of the highest budgets Nintendo ever gave to any game(with Smash obviously taking the crown due to post launch support and licensing, and also probably ACNH and BotW).
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Solely using sales to say why they shouldn’t make one always felt… disrespectful to the IP to me. It felt like any time I’d bring it up there’d be tons of people bringing up sales numbers to show why it shouldn’t be made. Almost like they were a Nintendo shareholder. It cultivates the attitude that no series is worth making unless it’s an absolute sales juggernaut, which also makes zero sense because Dread is probably going to outsell the Xenoblades, ARMS, etc. and other franchises Nintendo is currently making so it felt weird that that was ONLY brought up for Metroid.
It’s an IP with a legacy, impact and history of acclaim but that was constantly swept under a rug because it “didn’t sell” and it’s just frustrating because Prime and Super are the only other games Nintendo has that have acclaim on par with the most loved 3D Marios and Zeldas. It was more of a bewilderment thing to me, like it is RIGHT there with them in terms of impact and innovation on game design but so much less loved by the overall Nintendo fanbase.
And now that Dread’s out, what do we have? A game that brought positive attention and buzz to the switch in the core gaming community and will likely bring lots of eyes in during GOTY season. Something Nintendo can’t really do with anything else except a 3D Zelda or Mario. I spent months arguing the benefit for a new Metroid beyond just raw sales and boom, here we are.
of course this is all heavily biased and opinionated, because I’m someone who sees Metroid as a holy trinity of Nintendo game design alongside mario and zelda, so the fact that it isn’t seen as much by others is extremely noticeable and sad to me which loops back to the original point @Aurc made - many Nintendo fans aren’t drawn in by the aesthetic/vibe and likely haven’t given it a shot. And if they had, we’d see the cynical “sales” argument less and the value of the IP would be appreciated more.
Don’t know where I was going with this but yeah, I’m passionate about the series lol
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This is how I feel about it too, Phendrift. Thanks for articulating it. Your passion for Metroid is very clearly evident.
SuperFakerBros
Anti-Artistic Integrity
Well the series you're comparing Metroid Dread to are new IPs and it took Metroid well over a decade to have an entry that sold better than those new IPs. That should tell you a lot about where Metroid's appeal was as a brand. I'm not saying that they shouldn't have made more Metroid games. Just that the Metroid fanbase was beyond insufferable about it and completely unwilling to consider why maybe it didn't get made as much or, even worse, use it to knock down other games, most prominently Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze but even, somehow, something like Splatoon, for being made instead, as if it's somehow their fault or something. I just saw it as toxic and kinda soured me on the fanbase as a whole
That's not exactly strange. Plenty of beloved IPs don't have many high selling entries. Hell, for as much of a brand Megaman has, his games were never monster hits, if I remember right. Games like Shadow of the Colossus are also beloved but never sold amazingly either. Some series just don't have that appeal for a lot of folk or were perhaps on the wrong system or weren't around at the right time. We're seeing a lot of previously more niche series get breakout hits so the gaming landscape is obviously shifting
Hey, I'm happy to see Metroid Dread doing well, albeit I think we should cool it on the whole "winning GotY awards" talk for now. I wouldn't exactly call it the type of game that usually tends to win those and neither are almost every game Nintendo makes. I see that as more to do with where GotY awards tend to lean than regarding quality
Lol I can clearly see you're a super fan. It's all good. Most of us have got stuff we're passionate about. I'm just saying that your passion shouldn't blind you from seeing why others brought up arguments against it. Like you can't exactly fault folk for not trying out a series that doesn't exactly look appealing to them and, I'll be frank, I don't think Metroid would've done all that better elsewhere either. It took circumstances changing to allow for that
And none of them did particularly well
Not exactly a lot of stiff competition on the GC for that and neither of the sequels sold as well
I mean, I don't disagree with your passion (my user name is a bit of a hint), but almost every other videogame company would have put Samus out to pasture many years ago. Opportunity cost is a thing; Metroid games were generally expensive to make and they don't sell as much as other franchises. Why spend x amount of money making Metroid when you can spend the same sort of money and sell Mario or Zelda numbers? On the other hand, this is why Nintendo has lots of viable franchises - they don't just drop them at the first sign of bad sales.
You have to remember this in the context of its time. For an NES game Mega Man 2 sold handsomely. The videogame market was a lot smaller then.
SuperFakerBros
Anti-Artistic Integrity
Oh those ones honestly did do well, considering the time. But it does seem like the series never did expand its audience beyond what it got during the NES era and I imagine that's why he doesn't get used as much these days
Sumio Mondo
Lynchian
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It makes me wonder how a brand new Castlevania, Shinobi, Mystical Ninja (Goemon) or Mega Man etc would do in today's climate. 2D games like those have a legacy like classic Metroid and also sadly never sold what they deserved to keep their publishers interested in making entries. Is it simply a case of Metroid being more recognisable to people now due to Smash Bros or were people craving a great 2D game with that aesthetic?
Dinoman96
Like Like
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Out of those series you mentioned, Mega Man got a new game back in 2018. It sold alright (over a million IIRC, which is pretty good for that series).
Throw money at the problem and see if that changes anything. Dread is probably one of the most expensive metroidvanias out there. Ori too if that even counts.
daase ko
Octorok
In a few weeks, you'll see that it's still really just 3d mario & zelda sadly.
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With two Castlevania collections out now, I can't help but feel like Konami will put out a new one sometime in the near future. Whether it's a 2D Castlevania or 3D Castlevania though, we'll have to wait and see.
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Dread is also a lovingly made exploratory action game. Ori is definitely exploratory action too.
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We also have three Bloodstained games (two are Classicvanias, one is Metroidvania/exploratory action) which are essentially Castlevania games with the serial numbers filed off.
Supreme Overlord
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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This is something I've noticed a lot with Metroid over the years. When the topic comes up, it often shifts to the idea that Metroid should become something it isn't, or perhaps something even antithesis to what it is, so that it can sell more.
I'm going to assume LoneRanger is simply hyped up on the success of Dread and not actually suggesting Metroid take a full-on turn into becoming something else, but it's a suggestion I've seen in earnest, with people saying it needs to happen. But to change it to something else, as has been suggested in various locations over the years, is to remove the essence of what people like from the series to start with.
If you lose the soul of the series to prop up the shell, is it worth the trade?
I pulled this up, really, to mention the disconnect between claiming the series isn't worth making and suggesting it should be expected this lower-selling series wouldn't receive the same treatment as larger ones. One is a much stronger statement than the other.
But there's also the wording of being a "notable seller," which you've already argued against Prime being one of the best selling GameCube titles qualifying.
But it could be noted that the lack of stiff competition also means you could expect the audience who might have picked it up to be elsewhere as well, where their desires might be a bit better met.
Also, Prime here was being compared to all GameCube games; there was certainly less competition in that way than there might be on other systems, but it still means people picked up Prime instead of a number of other games one might expect had been more tailored to the audience.
As for the sequels, well, a sequel on the same system doesn't usually sell as well as the first game. Prime 3 launched for Wii, leaning actually a bit more in the direction a lot of people seem to think is necessary for the series to sell and be worth making, but the potential audience for such a direction was better served on other systems. I'd say being one of the best selling titles on the platform is "notable," even if only for the context we find it in.
I've referenced Prime 3, a later-numbered entry that leaned further from the typical core of Metroid, toward a direction that had an audience more centered on other consoles. But then there was also Other M, which, it might be worth noting, was largely reviled by the Metroid fanbase and really considered to be just not very good (I personally think that was overblown as far as gameplay goes, though there were some issues there, but other elements did put in the work to elicit an unfavorable response).
Prime 3, maybe, should have been able to pick up more sales despite its hurdles (and I do wonder if the more "casual" bent of Wii-era advertising hurt it more than helped), but Other M especially doesn't seem like a good barometer for what is generally hailed as a quality series (and was, itself, a divergence in many ways from the series' core).
But this wasn't what I was initially intending to address, and I don't think we entirely disagree at the core: Metroid is historically less profitable as a series than some of Nintendo's other franchises -- especially in Japan -- and can be expected to be handled somewhat differently. Though, even there, it seems much of your distaste is a resentment of the fandom, more than anything dealing with the franchise itself -- Generally, fandoms bring out the worst in people (Though, even then, I suspect the Donkey Kong debacle was less about Metroid itself and more that Donkey Kong wasn't considered "core" or "mature" enough, and the sparks-to-flame of that situation was also fanned by the games media. Similar to Splatoon, which has nothing to do with Metroid whatsoever, but also doesn't match that mature/core vibe).
I meant more to look at the idea that Metroid isn't worth making or needs to drastically change so it is. The question is well set up here:
And it's answered in the idea of a prestige title, one that props up the system to diversify its offerings, which can be a basis for a consumerbase that other publishers can latch on to, a concept that really only makes sense for a platform holder like Ninendo -- or just someone with absolutely ludicrous amounts of capital to throw around.
Look at Bayonetta, for instance. It wasn't a huge seller when it came out, though respectable, perhaps. But Nintendo took on that opportunity cost to fund the sequel. Why?
Likewise, Metroid isn't typically a loss for Nintendo, and it diversifies their output and what their systems have to offer. It caters to a base that, as mentioned earlier in the thread, much of the Nintendo fanbase might not be a part of -- but which does overlap.
Beyond that, most of what Nintendo puts out likely won't sell Mario or Zelda numbers, and the games that will certainly aren't being displaced by Metroid.
In conjunction with that, but clearly not the most influential aspect on its own, is the question of legacy. Where makes sense, Nintendo has built up and maintained its legacy franchises. Some have met fates, so far, that leave them behind, and others have felt the threat of such. But, while the super major hits might be at the top, there are going to be "lesser" franchises beneath them.
I've always considered Mario, Zelda, and Metroid to be the TriForce of Nintendo, more or less, not because of sales but because of a combination of legacy and prestige.
Let's look at Dark Souls for a moment, which isn't even a prestige title by a platform holder. And this isn't a "what can Metroid learn from Dark Souls" sort of thing in that I think one series should become like the other (though the first Dark Souls does share some amount of DNA). But Dark Souls knows what it is, and it plays toward that. It developed a following such that you might be forgiven for thinking it's actually massive.
If Metroid keeps in mind what it is, holds to some core elements that constitute its soul, and plays toward the strengths of that in design and in marketing, it can manage similar. But it also has the benefit of being a legacy franchise and a prestige title for a platform holder.
Which I guess is my point. Metroid doesn't need to become something else. It needs to know and develop what it is.
It doesn't need to sell to the extent of some of Nintendo's mega-sellers, though it's great for it to punch above its weight.
If it became something else, divorced from everything that actually makes the series what it is, what does it truly matter that the name is the same? Perhaps a rose by any other name might smell as sweet, but if bestowed to such as the titan-arum, the name of rose does not bring with it that same aromatic essence.
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Now the question is whether or not Dread can push the series above the likes of the newer sub-10mil hotness franchises like Xenoblade, Fire Emblem, Paper Mario and Pikmin. That would be quite the notable feat.
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Prime is still higher selling than any Xenoblade or Pikmin, and Dread looks to surpass even prime so that should be good there.
Fire Emblem would be the next thing to surpass, which would be 3m.
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Pikmin 3 Deluxe hit 2 million WW as of this past March, less than a year after its release, which already made it the best-selling Pikmin game ever. Xenoblade 2 was at 2 million as of June 2020. So these games still have plenty of time to best Prime's WW LTD numbers and the question remains about which pulls the better LTD numbers.
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these are great sales - I remember some conversations from last year where there was skepticism this game would hit 3 million lifetime sales. That feels well within the game’s reach now.
Sky Walker
Cappy
Seeing a Metroid game doing such numbers, let alone a 2D one. What a time to be alive !
