Discussion The term "Indie Game" means very little anymore (or how I had a crisis of faith when considering if Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 is an indie game)

[Jerm411]

I feel like I have the term indie pretty well defined in my head and can quantify what that looks like when I see a game...

Is it right? Uh probably not lol....but it does work for me soooo....

 

[chocolate_supra]

an example of the problem with "indie is vibes" is that for the longest time I genuinely thought Child of Light was an indie game, right up until I got to the credits and it said it was developed by goddamn Ubisoft

 

[SoldierDelta]

an example of the problem with "indie is vibes" is that for the longest time I genuinely thought Child of Light was an indie game, right up until I got to the credits and it said it was developed by goddamn Ubisoft

This was brought up earlier by @Concernt:

If you want a real kicker, Snipperclips is a Nintendo published game, but the team was indie. I don't think anyone seriously considers SnipperClips an indie game - Snipperclips Plus is a full size, boxed, retail, Nintendo published title.

Hell, the example I brought up in the original post was that Dave the Diver got nominated for best indie despite it being the least indie title in years to get nominated. However, Sifu, Hellblade and Kena all got indie noms because they are technically indie, even though Hellblade had at least 50 employees at that time. That's kinda nuts but okay?

Indie games absolutely do not have a vibe check anymore because it just categorically does not work.

 

[Aether]

This was brought up earlier by @Concernt:

Hell, the example I brought up in the original post was that Dave the Diver got nominated for best indie despite it being the least indie title in years to get nominated. However, Sifu, Hellblade and Kena all got indie noms because they are technically indie, even though Hellblade had at least 50 employees at that time. That's kinda nuts but okay?

Indie games absolutely do not have a vibe check anymore because it just categorically does not work.

How is Dave the Diver the least indie? Genuine question.

I think you're right, indie almost seems more like a vibe than anything. Where on earth can we draw the line? Is there a size limit? A team number limit? I had the thought of, "if it's not publicly traded and isn't a subsidiary, it's indie", but there are some seriously big companies that are, well, privately held.

If you want a real kicker, Snipperclips is a Nintendo published game, but the team was indie. I don't think anyone seriously considers SnipperClips an indie game - Snipperclips Plus is a full size, boxed, retail, Nintendo published title.

It was an indie game that Nintendo people seemingly saw at an event knowing about switch, and thought it would be a prime fit for the joy cons during a time Nintendo was struggling to get third parties on board.

It was a win win, but it definitely murks the water knowing that's it's effectively "bought" by Nintendo to adapt it for their new console.

 

[VolcanicDynamo]

How is Dave the Diver the least indie? Genuine question.

Mintrocket, the developer behind Dave the Diver, is a wholly owned subsidiary of Nexon, a massive publisher behind games like MapleStory and many other titles. Despite being nominated for "Best Indie Game" awards, Mintrocket is, in a very literal sense, not an indie developer.

 

[SoldierDelta]

How is Dave the Diver the least indie? Genuine question.

Mintrocket, the developers, are a Nexon-made subdivision/sub-brand. Nexon is a 7,000 person-strong, ¥200 billion revenue-earning per year publisher. Mintrocket wasn't formed until after Dave the Diver was announced (announced as a mobile title in 2018 by Nexon Mobile, Mintrocket founded in May 2022). In fact, to take this further, Mintrocket and the Vice President of Nexon's "New Development Headquarters" (which oversees Mintrocket) both stated that Dave the Diver is not an indie:

"[it] may look like an indie, but that is not necessarily the case"

To put it bluntly, it really, really, really, really isn't an indie game by any stretch of the imagination.

It was a bit of a topic of conversation when it was nominated for best independent game at TGA in regards to how it prevented other indie titles from being nominated for it and how indie games should be defined. That was a reason why I brought it up in the thread because big companies making smaller-seeming titles are a big part of the death of "indie game" as a term for smaller titles and a non-major published game.

 

[BlackthornOrion]

How is Dave the Diver the least indie? Genuine question.

The developer of Dave the Diver is wholly owned by Nexon, which is a rather large publisher worth approximately 13 billion USD

Not a perfect comparison, but it's a bit like when people call something like Pentiment or Hi-Fi Rush "indie" just because the teams are smaller and have lower on-screen production value than the usual AAA game, ignoring how absurd it is to call any game made by a Microsoft-owned studio "indie"

 

[BassForever]

Considering indie is just a group of people coming together despite the odds stacked against them to make a game, my favorite indie game is Grand Theft Auto 5.

 

[SoldierDelta]

Considering indie is just a group of people coming together despite the odds stacked against them to make a game, my favorite indie game is Grand Theft Auto 5.

On a serious attempt at understanding what the industry thinks indie games mean, I'm going to try and lay out a definition of "indie games" (or at least what the game industry thinks it is), so here's my attempt:

An independent title ("indie game") is a low or medium budget title that is made from a smaller than normal group of developers (anywhere between 1 and 100) without the oversight of an executive or direct funding/oversight of a major publisher ("major publisher" being a company that owns/makes their own games).


With this definition, it clarifies what would actually be an indie game. Kena, Hellblade 1, basically all Kelper Interactive games, and basically all Annapurna and Devolver titles. This would exclude Baldur's Gate 3 for two reasons, one being that they absolutely have over 100 employees, and the second being that they do have oversight from Wizards of the Coast as a result of using the BG license. I hope this is an... alright attempt at a definition? Idk, this industry basically makes up shit all the time for the sake of the person-to-person narrative people try and spin. If Geoff Keighley thinks Dave the Diver is an indie game, then I have no clue what to think anymore tbh.

 

[dolpic]

This is cynical, but I think indie was mostly a marketing term from the very start. There's no salvaging it. Even the supposed artistic ideal of the small handful of people making a game themselves is not isolated from the market - they want to make money, so they'll follow trends and make their Roguelikes and Metroidvanias with Progression™ just like everyone else. So what is the meaningful difference inherent between published and self-published? Not much really, so long as they're trying to make money.

This isn't to say you can't find devs just doing whatever they feel like for the love of the game out there (or that trying to make money will necessarily result in a bad game). You just won't be able to find them with any wide label or signifier. It's a case by case thing.

 

[John Omaha]

I think the term "indie game" has become so nebulous that it barely means anything today. It was only really useful to define a category of smaller, often self-published games when they first started emerging thanks to digital distribution in the late 7th to early 8th gen.

 

[Ricimer]

I think the term "indie game" has become so nebulous that it barely means anything today. It was only really useful to define a category of smaller, often self-published games when they first started emerging thanks to digital distribution in the late 7th to early 8th gen.

This. It's been a bullshit and meaningless term based on "vibes" since at least 2014.

Start calling these games what they are: AA

 

[Lant_War]

I find it pretty easy to tell which games are indie and which aren't personally. Not trying to brag.

 

[Aether]

OK thx all 3 of you for the explanation ^^