• Hey everyone, staff have documented a list of banned content and subject matter that we feel are not consistent with site values, and don't make sense to host discussion of on Famiboards. This list (and the relevant reasoning per item) is viewable here.

Discussion The Paper Mario series discussion and debate thread.

I don't care for "spoilers" at all. Think the whole thing is stupid. Writing is enjoyable for its craft, not for its novelty. If a story isn't good when you already know how it goes, it was never good in the first place. So I feel like I have a very different relationship to media than most people which isn't based around consumption of one thing after another. It's hard to think of a game I liked and haven't replayed at least once. This is with me being the sort of person who has a lot of difficulty actually sitting down and starting something, regardless of how much free time I have. One playthrough usually isn't enough to properly understand a game anyway.

I've bounced back and forth on the spoilers thing. I used to be very spoilerphobic, then really mad about "spoilers culture," and now I'm back to thinking you can spoil a story, many people just vastly overstate what counts as a spoiler. I will never forget, as long as I keep my mental faculties, my first time seeing Arrival in a movie theater, or realizing the twist of Ghost Trick (now available in a digital storefront near you). I could never rewatch/replay those and even approach that first experience of having it click into place.

But I'm not talking about foreknowledge. I'm talking about fore-experience. Yeah, maybe I am a very novelty-driven person. I won't deny that. I even rarely order the same thing twice at a restaurant, even if I know I love one particular item.

What's super fascinating is, I also have a hugely difficult time starting something likely due to ADHD. The addiction to novelty/stimuli and the inability to start things feel deeply linked for me, while you've got one and not the other. Unfortunately, this leaves me deeply unhappy, because one directly blocks the other. I'm desperate for new experiences but I lack the energy to do anything other than talk about old ones on internet forums.

People are funny.
 
That's why I almost never replay games. I especially can't fathom how people replay narrative heavy rpgs multiple times. When you know every beat, what's the point?

It's a rhetorical question. Everybody is different. I'm just saying, it's a pretty alien experience to my own and I'm curious.
Do you feel the same way about people who rewatch movies or TV shows, or re-read books?

Just because I’ve experience a story once doesn’t mean I should never experience it again. In fact I find it far stranger to not replay/watch/read things that you love. If I fell in love with a world or characters, I want to revisit them.
 
Do you feel the same way about people who rewatch movies or TV shows, or re-read books?

Just because I’ve experience a story once doesn’t mean I should never experience it again. In fact I find it far stranger to not replay/watch/read things that you love. If I fell in love with a world or characters, I want to revisit them.
Did you read my followup? It hopefully comes off as way less judgmental. I'm clear there that my addiction to novelty is just as weird or weirder than the opposite end of the spectrum.

As it happens, I also don't really rewatch TV shows unless it's to show them to somebody. Same with movies. And I don't reread books, with very few exceptions.

You find it strange that one would not want to revisit a world or characters, but ive tried and I can't go home again. Maybe that's sad. But I'd be happy with it if I had the willpower to jump into new things. Right now I'm caught in a very awkward nomansland.
 
0
Quick thoughts:

Paper Mario - A consistent masterpiece. 9.5/10
TTYD - An up and down masterpiece (but with higher highs than 64). 9.5/10
Super - A quality spinoff. 8/10
Sticker Star - One of the worst games Nintendo has made. 5/10
Color Splash - A bad formula polished to the point of mediocrity. 6.5/10
Origami King - A solid game held back by unnecessarily clinging to the decaying remains of its predecessors. 7.5/10

The series needs to either go back to RPG elements or discard them completely.
 
Last edited:
What's super fascinating is, I also have a hugely difficult time starting something likely due to ADHD. The addiction to novelty/stimuli and the inability to start things feel deeply linked for me, while you've got one and not the other. Unfortunately, this leaves me deeply unhappy, because one directly blocks the other. I'm desperate for new experiences but I lack the energy to do anything other than talk about old ones on internet forums.

People are funny.
I can relate to this actually. I require novelty in the sense that, if there isn't enough going on in a game that I can't keep getting more out of it every time I play it, I tend to write it off. Same with music or writing, if it stops "working", it's not good enough. Which doesn't create insane standards, surprisingly, but probably makes it harder for me to enjoy things than most people.

It's why, for instance, I've never been a fan of the rocket barrel levels in Retro's Donkey Kong games. They progress at a 100% set speed and all you can do is press one button to go up and release it to fall, so after you've fully completed them once, you've hit the skill ceiling and it's hard to get engaged with them. There's no meaningful variation in how you play them. I think I tend to obsess over platformers because at the heart of the genre is making the simple act of moving the character engaging. So that's constant stimulation you aren't getting from games where you just walk around.

Similarly, I like games like Panel de Pon and Puyo Puyo for providing this instant hit of intense action that will be different every time and that I will never even come close to hitting the peak of. Even that's not enough on its own, I pick those out specifically because they have characters and music and a setting, whereas I have more trouble caring about Tetris or Lumines (which has been sitting in my Steam library unplayed for who knows how long actually, I really should give it a go myself to see if I even enjoy it, but that blank futuristic aesthetic doesn't really grab me...) I love fighting games in concept for similar reasons, even though I rarely play them myself since I've never been much for multiplayer games. And I tend to stick with Touhou over other shmups because sure, they all provide a billion explosions and mind-bending rainbows of death to weave through, but this one has characters instead of blank spaceships, and the kappa's bullets move like waves and that's neat.

The only non-action genre I'm really interested in is RPGs, and to bring this back slightly adjacent to the thread topic, Paper Mario is one of my favorites because it minimizes the "watching numbers go up" side of the genre and focuses almost entirely on strategy with the badge system. While my body completely rejects the absurdly glacial pacing of non-Fire Emblem SRPGs, in general the impact of strategy has an enormous influence on how much I enjoy an RPG. I liked Ikenfell a lot more than most people, even though I thought the writing was poor and they wasted the setting, because I got really into the combat system that most people bounced off of very early. Every single battle was engaging and meaningfully different, which was huge. (It's basically like a Mario RPG on a grid ala Trails, but way harder.)
 
The series needs to either go back to RPG elements or discard them completely.
The half-baked RPG stuff is so obviously a hinderance. At this point all the unintuitive battles and whatnot just serve as fodder for unflattering comparisons to the first two entries. The series would be in a better place if they just ripped the band-aid off. Would be nice to have games where people didn't need to have an apologetic "just accept that it won't be as fun as PM/TTYD" qualifier lol
 
The half-baked RPG stuff is so obviously a hinderance. At this point all the unintuitive battles and whatnot just serve as fodder for unflattering comparisons to the first two entries. The series would be in a better place if they just ripped the band-aid off. Would be nice to have games where people didn't need to have an apologetic "just accept that it won't be as fun as PM/TTYD" qualifier lol
That's one of my biggest issues with the new series, if not the biggest. They're obviously hearing the criticisms, but they implement half-baked solutions (e.g. TOK's "partners") that don't come close to satisfying anyone.
 
I wish the Paper Mario series leaned much harder into its quirky non-traditional and subversive characters and scenarios, especially the mystery solving detective segments. These elements are my favourite part of the first two games and I feel is what gives the series its uniqueness.
 
I wish the Paper Mario series leaned much harder into its quirky non-traditional and subversive characters and scenarios, especially the mystery solving detective segments. These elements are my favourite part of the first two games and I feel is what gives the series its uniqueness.
I never would have guessed that you like those segments
 
Never played Paper Mario or TTYD.

I adore Origami King, easily one of my favourite Switch games. Had an absolute blast with it.

Very fond memories of Super Paper Mario too.
 
Quick thoughts:

Paper Mario - A consistent masterpiece. 9.5/10
TTYD - An up and down masterpiece. 9/10
Super - A quality spinoff. 8/10
Sticker Star - One of the worst games Nintendo has made. 5/10
Color Splash - A bad formula polished to the point of mediocrity. 6.5/10
Origami King - A solid game held back by unnecessarily clinging to the decaying remains of its predecessors. 7.5/10

The series needs to either go back to RPG elements or discard them completely.

damn one of nintendos worst games and it still gets a 5/10

someone hasnt played the actual bad games
 
damn one of nintendos worst games and it still gets a 5/10

someone hasnt played the actual bad games
Yes, because Nintendo (and most companies, though I'd say more so Nintendo) don't typically release games bad enough to earn below a 5/10. They won't make money, so they cancel them.

You're aren't gonna see a Nintendo equivalent of Big Rigs Racing.
 
Quick thoughts:

Paper Mario - A consistent masterpiece. 9.5/10
TTYD - An up and down masterpiece. 9/10
Super - A quality spinoff. 8/10
Sticker Star - One of the worst games Nintendo has made. 5/10
Color Splash - A bad formula polished to the point of mediocrity. 6.5/10
Origami King - A solid game held back by unnecessarily clinging to the decaying remains of its predecessors. 7.5/10

The series needs to either go back to RPG elements or discard them completely.
Swap PM64/TTYD and maybe be slightly nicer to TOK and this is exactly where I'm at. SPM has huge issues for me but also does a ton else to redeem itself that edges it over TOK for me.
 
0
So I have just found out on the Super Mario Bros wiki that it is implied that Jolene from Glitzville in Ch. 3 is the same female toad that is in the Fresh Juice shop but she is just more dressed up and my mind is BLOWN!!!!


 
So I have just found out on the Super Mario Bros wiki that it is implied that Jolene from Glitzville in Ch. 3 is the same female toad that is in the Fresh Juice shop but she is just more dressed up and my mind is BLOWN!!!!


haha there are a lot of intresting theories there

but i think that one is putting her in too many places at once lol
 
So I have just found out on the Super Mario Bros wiki that it is implied that Jolene from Glitzville in Ch. 3 is the same female toad that is in the Fresh Juice shop but she is just more dressed up and my mind is BLOWN!!!!


I definitely remember thinking how weird this was as a kid, but probably more likely to be reusing assets.
 
The juice shop toad is definitely Jolene, it's pretty blatant. They wouldn't reuse the asset of a plot important character for a background NPC in the same area. I almost feel like they say it explicitly at one point, but I could be misremembering.
 
haha there are a lot of intresting theories there

but i think that one is putting her in too many places at once lol
I definitely remember thinking how weird this was as a kid, but probably more likely to be reusing assets.
The juice shop toad is definitely Jolene, it's pretty blatant. They wouldn't reuse the asset of a plot important character for a background NPC in the same area. I almost feel like they say it explicitly at one point, but I could be misremembering.
I don't think it's explicitly stated, but I've played it recently enough to know it's supposed to be very heavily implied.

IIRC it's implied by the bartender that juice shop toad is the one that left the hammer, but you know by the end Jolene is the one helping you. I also believe juice shop toad disappears between the fights where Jolene is on the move, though I don't quite remember for certain. She is definitely gone for good after the chapter concludes.
 
I don't think it's explicitly stated, but I've played it recently enough to know it's supposed to be very heavily implied.

IIRC it's implied by the bartender that juice shop toad is the one that left the hammer, but you know by the end Jolene is the one helping you. I also believe juice shop toad disappears between the fights where Jolene is on the move, though I don't quite remember for certain. She is definitely gone for good after the chapter concludes.
i see what you mean. the girl in the bar does disappear sometimes. But in my headcannon grubba would walk into the bar and be like (in arins grubbas voice) "what in tarnation are you doing here jolyene"
 
damn one of nintendos worst games and it still gets a 5/10

someone hasnt played the actual bad games
Going to back up that other poster, Sticker Star is hands down one of Nintendo's worst polished games that they have published. It really deserves a 5/10 rating.
 
i see what you mean. the girl in the bar does disappear sometimes. But in my headcannon grubba would walk into the bar and be like (in arins grubbas voice) "what in tarnation are you doing here jolyene"
The fact that no one recognizes her when all she does is let her hair down and take off her glasses is part of the bit lol. This is the same series where nobody can quite put their finger on who Mr. L is.
 
Going to back up that other poster, Sticker Star is hands down one of Nintendo's worst polished games that they have published. It really deserves a 5/10 rating.

im not questioning the 5, im lolin at the idea nintendos not put out games worse than a 5 or even worse than sticker star.
 
im not questioning the 5, im lolin at the idea nintendos not put out games worse than a 5 or even worse than sticker star.
People need to accept the fact that the consensuses around number scores for games is equivalent to a letter grading system. A 7/10 is a C, a 5/10 is an F, etc.

You might disagree, but this is what it is in practice for every major games website and review aggregator (metacritic, RT, opencritic, etc).
 
People need to accept the fact that the consensuses around number scores for games is equivalent to a letter grading system. A 7/10 is a C, a 5/10 is an F, etc.

You might disagree, but this is what it is in practice for every major games website and review aggregator (metacritic, RT, opencritic, etc).
I feel this is a very US centric view of things...
 
I feel this is a very US centric view of things...
Probably, but when the average is a 7-8/10 then that's what the score system effectively is in practice. Why do you think RT labels everything a 5/10 or below as "rotten"? Or opencritic labeling anything below a 70 as weak? It's just statistics.

Screenshot-20230710-092745.png


And also, an individual rating their experiences on a forum can use whatever scale they want.
Yeah which is why I said consensus
 
Probably, but when the average is a 7-8/10 then that's what the score system effectively is in practice.


Yeah which is why I said consensus
I don't want to get into review scores here too much but there are a host of reasons why some outlets very rarely go below 5/6, the main one being that they don't review the absolute dross that exists various platforms.

Why do you think RT labels everything a 5/10 or below as "rotten"? Or opencritic labeling anything below a 70 as weak? It's just statistics

Mainly because they're US based. It's also noticeable to me at least that a fair chunk of the outlets listed on Metacritic who score lower than 70 on average are EU/UK based.

Mainly just took issue with you saying tha every major outlet does the review grade system when that it's actually mainly the big US ones.

But this is a Paper Mario thread so back to that
 
These percentiles define the average as a 7/10 and not a 5/10?

I don't want to get into review scores here too much but there are a host of reasons why some outlets very rarely go below 5/6, the main one being that they don't review the absolute dross that exists various platforms.

Mainly because they're US based. It's also noticeable to me at least that a fair chunk of the outlets listed on Metacritic who score lower than 70 on average are EU/UK based.

Mainly just took issue with you saying tha every major outlet does the review grade system when that it's actually mainly the big US ones.

But this is a Paper Mario thread so back to that
It could be an American-centric origin, I'm just going off the statistics from review aggregate websites and people's perceptions for the last 2 decades.

Discounting the pure shovelware, most indie games that nobody reviews are technically competent and would probably score as such. They're just derivative and not doing much new, which is why they're ignored.

It's just a fact that any game that's not a complete technical failure (i.e. Big Rigs lmao) rarely, if ever, scores below a 5/10. Anytime a blockbuster game averages a 7/10 it's a cause for concern, nobody ever says "oh that's good score." That's because 7/10 is the statistical average and is wildly seen as such, not 5/10.
 
Last edited:
These percentiles define the average as a 7/10 and not a 5/10?


It could be an American-centric origin, I'm just going off the statistics from review aggregate websites and people's perceptions for the last 2 decades.

Discounting the pure shovelware, most indie games that nobody reviews are technically competent and would probably score as such. They're just derivative and not doing much new, which is why they're ignored.

It's just a fact that any game that's not a complete technical failure (i.e. Big Rigs lmao) rarely, if ever, scores below a 5/10. Anytime a blockbuster game averages a 7/10 it's a cause for concern, nobody ever says "oh that's good score." That's because 7/10 is the statistical average and is wildly seen as such, not 5/10.
I think we'd see more 4s or 5s as outlets tend to score indies a bit lower (which I speculate would push the overall average lower) but the AAA point is fair. I don't take review scores seriously at all but I do find them and people's reactions to them weirdly fascinating so excuse my intrusion :)
 
0
This literally started by someone giving a personal rating on a personal scale, I have no idea what review weighting by professional outlets matters even a little, especially as by that standard no game in the series is below a 75 on metacritic anyway.
 
This literally started by someone giving a personal rating on a personal scale, I have no idea what review weighting by professional outlets matters even a little, especially as by that standard no game in the series is below a 75 on metacritic anyway.
Well no, I was replying to someone who said a 5/10 doesn't equate to a bad game (which is what the original poster was insinuating) when that's pretty removed from common consensus.
 
Last edited:
Well no, I was replying to someone who said a 5/10 doesn't equate to a bad game (which is what the original poster was insinuating) when that's pretty removed from common consensus.
I agree that review outlets tend to weight like letter grading, but I don’t agree you can assume someone’s personal scale conforms to that concensus.
 
I agree that review outlets tend to weight like letter grading, but I don’t agree you can assume someone’s personal scale conforms to that concensus.
Dude said SS is the worst game Nintendo has ever made and gave it a 5/10. His personal scale aligns pretty well with the letter-grade perception that review outlets and most people hold. I replied to someone who was taken aback by that "5/10 = worst Nintendo game ever?" mismatch when it's really not that weird.
 
This is the dumbest argument I've ever read, and this is the Paper Mario thread. Keep this up and we'll be in bodybuilder forum territory.
 
This is the dumbest argument I've ever read, and this is the Paper Mario thread. Keep this up and we'll be in body builder forum territory.
Hey at least we're all in agreement about how many days are in a week. We're not bodybuilder forum levels yet.
 
Don't try to Yeah and charm your way out of this one.
I mean, but I'm right? I'm just saying the common consensus around number scores is like letter grading. That's objectively how review outlets treat it.

Drive-bying into a thread and just saying "wow what a dumb argument" with no other contribution is worst than any debate post
 
Dude said SS is the worst game Nintendo has ever made and gave it a 5/10. His personal scale aligns pretty well with the letter-grade perception that review outlets and most people hold. I replied to someone who was taken aback by that "5/10 = worst Nintendo game ever?" mismatch when it's really not that weird.
Said person that gave that 5/10 also gave reasoning why they did. As bad as Sticker Star is, it is nowhere near the broken meme mess of a game like Big Rigs. Nintendo has released their share of stinkers, but nothing to a degree of a mess that would qualify as "barely functional."
 
Said person that gave that 5/10 also gave reasoning why they did. As bad as Sticker Star is, it is nowhere near the broken meme mess of a game like Big Rigs. Nintendo has released their share of stinkers, but nothing to a degree of a mess that would qualify as "barely functional."
Agreed 👍
 
0
Said person that gave that 5/10 also gave reasoning why they did. As bad as Sticker Star is, it is nowhere near the broken meme mess of a game like Big Rigs. Nintendo has released their share of stinkers, but nothing to a degree of a mess that would qualify as "barely functional."
I really don't care about a game like Big Rigs cause it's a dime a dozen shitty games. Sticker Star having bad design n choices and being extremely souless baffles me that Nintendo published this game.
 
Last edited:
I feel like there's something very Dragon Quest about the first two Paper Mario games, and something very Final Fantasy (or Kingdom Hearts) about Super. What do you think?
 
I feel like there's something very Dragon Quest about the first two Paper Mario games, and something very Final Fantasy (or Kingdom Hearts) about Super. What do you think?
Yeah pretty much. I’m playing Super right now and it has a multi-world hopping adventure to recover heart themed McGuffins to stop a nebulous darkness from destroying reality at the behest of a tormented madman and his organization of baddies. It’s very much Kingdom Hearts.
 


Back
Top Bottom