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Discussion The Paper Mario series discussion and debate thread.

Hailinel said:
Said person that gave that 5/10 also gave reasoning why they did. As bad as Sticker Star is, it is nowhere near the broken meme mess of a game like Big Rigs. Nintendo has released their share of stinkers, but nothing to a degree of a mess that would qualify as "barely functional."
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I like sticker star, but I never had a huge attatchement to the games before it
 
Dizzle said:
I feel like there's something very Dragon Quest about the first two Paper Mario games, and something very Final Fantasy (or Kingdom Hearts) about Super. What do you think?
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I have always felt Paper Mario 64 has a tone that is similar to Dragon Quest, while the tone in Paper Mario TTYD is closer to Final Fantasy. I would say Super is a mix of both with its compelling story that would fit right in with a Dragon Quest story and characters that feel like they came out of a game like Final Fantasy.
 
I think Sticker Star is definitely among one of the worst designed Nintendo-published games but would still give it a 4 or 5/10 since besides my personal feelings I'm not under the delusion it's worse than the mountains of trash games that exist out there. It's just really a really dull, sometimes confusingly designed experience that doesn't remotely measure up to what came before or even really after it.

The nice presentation and soundtrack probably helps it get a higher mark in my book but yeah, for as much as I dislike it I don't think there's really any Nintendo-made/published games that deserve to go any lower on a ten score scale than a 4 or 5.
 
AstroOhHey said:
I think Sticker Star is definitely among one of the worst designed Nintendo-published games but would still give it a 4 or 5/10 since besides my personal feelings I'm not under the delusion it's worse than the mountains of trash games that exist out there. It's just really a really dull, sometimes confusingly designed experience that doesn't remotely measure up to what came before or even really after it.

The nice presentation and soundtrack probably helps it get a higher mark in my book but yeah, for as much as I dislike it I don't think there's really any Nintendo-made/published games that deserve to go any lower on a ten score scale than a 4 or 5.
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The only game that I can compare it to is Sonic Forces. They are both unriddled with glitches, but are so unremarkable that they are bad. Not even so bad it's good.
Speaking of Sticker Star.


I'm suprised this hasn't been mentioned in this thread. It's a good critique on why Sticker Star is a bad game.
 
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Nice thread, I have only played the console versions of Paper Mario with the exception of color splash, the one that really made me stray away from the series was super paper Mario for the Wii, while the one that brought me back was the Origami King, I never expected to get so hooked on the story.
 
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Seems like as good a time as any to necro my own thread 😎 how are we feeling about the remake. I see it as a statement of intent, like nintendo is saying “okay, we hear you.” The remake looks excellent too. Between this and smrpg, it’s a good time to be a mario rpg fan! Now hopefully we can get them to bring mario and luging i back from the dead. Id also be okay with a paper mario game that had no combat one day tbh. My favorite parts of origami king are when it felt like an adventure game
 
they should really spin off the SS/CS/TOK into a new series without the shackles of the RPG legacy. or vice versa spinoff the RPG PMs into a separate series
 
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I can only hope that Mario RPG and TTYD pull reasonably big sales numbers, at least bigger than Origami King

It's so wild that Nintendo is remaking these games back-to-back. There will never be a better opportunity to prove to Nintendo that people want actual Mario RPGs, but I'm a little worried that the absolute glut of Mario games releasing in the next year might step on their toes a little.
 
TTYD remake seems like a cautious buy right now. Chopped to 30fps which actually DOES matter because Action Commands would either become incredibly easy like Color Splash/Origami King, or harder and more annoying that's worse than 64. And this is something that you can influence with Simplifier badges/etc which you'd need to fundamentally change based on how granular they already are right now. It feels like the Bowser's Inside Story remake where chopping it to 30fps actually did make it worse to play versus the original. And even if it does get a Switch 2 patch to run at 60, all these changes to make it work at 30 can't 100% be reverted. It's not going to be the same game experience, which might be good or bad but it won't change that fact at all. Now to be fair, I'm mostly referring to superguards here which are a 3 frame window in original. Though, there’s no way it's 1 frame in the remake, it has to be 2 frames in remake which is 4 equivalent frames in original.

Also, the text speed is Color Splash/Origami King speeds which is absolutely AWFUL. If it's anything like those games where you can't automatically advance through the text AND new paragraphs are slower, that makes TTYD even slower.

And I doubt they can rip out much of the filler or backtracking except for Chapter 7's beginning to make that more smooth, maybe touch a bit of Chapter 4, but I'm not keeping my hopes up.
 
RochHoch said:
I can only hope that Mario RPG and TTYD pull reasonably big sales numbers, at least bigger than Origami King

It's so wild that Nintendo is remaking these games back-to-back. There will never be a better opportunity to prove to Nintendo that people want actual Mario RPGs, but I'm a little worried that the absolute glut of Mario games releasing in the next year might step on their toes a little.
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I mean, hoping they outsell TOK seems just a little wild to me. TOK released at a time of the post Animal Crossing Switch zeitgeist in which people had fairly little else to play on Switch with no new major releases coming in a similar window for the console and then enjoyed a pretty resilient word of mouth. It was like Nintendo's only NEW release in 2020 alongside Animal Crossing and it was a new game too. I feel like that contributed to TOK pushing well past 3 million.

Therefore I don't think it's entirely reasonable to setup the "future of Mario RPGs" as having to clear that bar when both Super Mario RPG and TTYD are remakes releasing at the end of the Switch's life in a much more heavily packed Mario schedule and competing with not only each other, but the Mario influx of this whole year, PS5 and Xbox Series consoles really hitting a stride, and Switch 2 itself.

I think if they both clear 1 million, that's a really respectable and clear sign people enjoy these types of titles, with maybe 2 million being a bit more ideal (especially for Super Mario RPG since it will have a holiday without some of those other factors). I think we can pull down the bar for success a bit and just in general focus on decent sales that show Nintendo an audience exists for these games. Especially at a time where it's a bit harder for your average Switch game to put up the numbers they did these past few years and at its peak.
 
Beanstar40 said:
Seems like as good a time as any to necro my own thread 😎 how are we feeling about the remake. I see it as a statement of intent, like nintendo is saying “okay, we hear you.” The remake looks excellent too. Between this and smrpg, it’s a good time to be a mario rpg fan! Now hopefully we can get them to bring mario and luging i back from the dead. Id also be okay with a paper mario game that had no combat one day tbh. My favorite parts of origami king are when it felt like an adventure game
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Using it as the closer for the direct definitely feels like they acknowledge the demand and hype potential for old Paper Mario, yeah. It’s encouraging!

But I’m of the mindset that what it really takes is simply IS wanting to make one. The demand has been obvious for years and it still hasn’t happened, so I’m not convinced they’d make a new game in the old style yet.
 
Evil Lucario said:
TTYD remake seems like a cautious buy right now. Chopped to 30fps which actually DOES matter because Action Commands would either become incredibly easy like Color Splash/Origami King, or harder and more annoying that's worse than 64. And this is something that you can influence with Simplifier badges/etc which you'd need to fundamentally change based on how granular they already are right now. It feels like the Bowser's Inside Story remake where chopping it to 30fps actually did make it worse to play versus the original. And even if it does get a Switch 2 patch to run at 60, all these changes to make it work at 30 can't 100% be reverted. It's not going to be the same game experience, which might be good or bad but it won't change that fact at all. Now to be fair, I'm mostly referring to superguards here which are a 3 frame window in original. Though, there’s no way it's 1 frame in the remake, it has to be 2 frames in remake which is 4 equivalent frames in original.

Also, the text speed is Color Splash/Origami King speeds which is absolutely AWFUL. If it's anything like those games where you can't automatically advance through the text AND new paragraphs are slower, that makes TTYD even slower.

And I doubt they can rip out much of the filler or backtracking except for Chapter 7's beginning to make that more smooth, maybe touch a bit of Chapter 4, but I'm not keeping my hopes up.
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It's entirely likely that they'd adjust mechanics to not be dependent on the same framerate factors as a GameCube game from 20 years ago designed for the pre-HD era. And I'd be surprised if they don't make adjustments to game balance and pacing, whether that be through new badges or reworked mechanics.
 
Hailinel said:
It's entirely likely that they'd adjust mechanics to not be dependent on the same framerate factors as a GameCube game from 20 years ago designed for the pre-HD era. And I'd be surprised if they don't make adjustments to game balance and pacing, whether that be through new badges or reworked mechanics.
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If they actually remake the game to work off delta-time and not tie actions to framerates, then that would be good and allow a Switch 2 patch to just play the same. I'm a bit skeptical that will happen, but we shall see.
 
EricTheGamerman said:
I mean, hoping they outsell TOK seems just a little wild to me. TOK released at a time of the post Animal Crossing Switch zeitgeist in which people had fairly little else to play on Switch with no new major releases coming in a similar window for the console and then enjoyed a pretty resilient word of mouth. It was like Nintendo's only NEW release in 2020 alongside Animal Crossing and it was a new game too. I feel like that contributed to TOK pushing well past 3 million.

Therefore I don't think it's entirely reasonable to setup the "future of Mario RPGs" as having to clear that bar when both Super Mario RPG and TTYD are remakes releasing at the end of the Switch's life in a much more heavily packed Mario schedule and competing with not only each other, but the Mario influx of this whole year, PS5 and Xbox Series consoles really hitting a stride, and Switch 2 itself.

I think if they both clear 1 million, that's a really respectable and clear sign people enjoy these types of titles, with maybe 2 million being a bit more ideal (especially for Super Mario RPG since it will have a holiday without some of those other factors). I think we can pull down the bar for success a bit and just in general focus on decent sales that show Nintendo an audience exists for these games. Especially at a time where it's a bit harder for your average Switch game to put up the numbers they did these past few years and at its peak.
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Both of these are definitely going to sell more than two million. You’re vastly underestimating how huge the Switch install base is right now. TOTK sold 2/3 of BOTW’s lifetime sales in 2 months

It’s time to get out of your “nobody is buying games and everybody wants to move onto Switch 2” bubble. That’s not reality.
 
Sunshinemario said:
Both of these are definitely going to sell more than two million. You’re vastly underestimating how huge the Switch install base is right now. TOTK sold 2/3 of BOTW’s lifetime sales in 2 months

It’s time to get out of your “nobody is buying games and everybody wants to move onto Switch 2” bubble. That’s not reality.
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You can't use Tears of the Kingdom's data to justify other predictions like that. ToTK is an extremely unique mega game that had Nintendo's complete and undivided attention for marketing and push that as the marquee AAA Nintendo game also just carries enormously different weight and can power through the market to claim the top spot. Something Super Mario Wonder will also be extremely capable of doing.

Mario RPGs are not, and have never been, those kinds of games. They have generally sold well and done admirably for a Mario spinoff, at their best competing alongside a lot of the other top Mario spinoffs not named Mario Kart. The highest achievements of the Mario RPGs as a whole across all their iterations seems to be Super Paper Mario's 4.3 million and Mario & Luigi Bowser's Inside Story at a similar 4.13 million (per a Nintendo 2011 earnings report since that number is a bit less known). Both of which also released on extremely popular machines at the height of their respective dominance as well. That feels like a pretty reasonable ceiling for these games in a best case scenario to me.

Super Mario RPG and especially TTYD are releasing much later in the consoles life than either of those "peak sales" titles came out, both are also going to have a bit of full priced remake doubt to contend with (well I guess we don't absolutely know TTYD will be full priced, but it seems likely given Nintendo's tendencies), and then both are indeed filling a similar niche in potentially a relatively short time frame. I don't think Nintendo is like sending them out to die or whatever, but I do think those are realities that make them both hitting huge sales numbers a bit more difficult.

And the non huge Switch games definitely have shown this year to be a bit behind. Not to like a detrimental level, just games aren't seeing the same legs that earlier Switch releases saw. XC3 is still behind XC2, Splatoon 3 is behind Splatoon 2, Fire Emblem Engage came in well short of Three Houses, etc. Metroid Prime Remastered people swore up and down would be the new sales juggernaut of the Metroid franchise for it to have sold a very reasonable 1 million plus. I just feel like there's been a huge expectation of crazy sales rather than just grounded good sales because the biggest and most popular evergreens continue to do crazy stuff. Two Mario RPGs crossing 2 million late in the Switch life puts them above literally every other Nintendo released RPG on Switch except for Three Houses and XC2, that would mean something still. And we generally see a lot of drop-off between systems when people begin moving on. Which again, is fine. Samus Returns barely got past half a million despite the 3DS install base when it released deep into the Switch's first year, but it gave Nintendo the results they wanted to send Mercury Steam on to do Dread.

I just don't necessarily agree these games are set up for like the breakaway crazy success beyond what Mario RPGs have done in the past. Excellent sales that encourage Nintendo to keep making Mario RPGs? Absolutely! Breaking through the ceiling of Mario RPGs because of the Switch install base? I'm not sold on that yet but I'd LOOOOOOOOOVE to be wrong specifically on this point. And if I'm predicting one to do it, it's Super Mario RPG because it'll have had a main Switch 1 holiday paired with Wonder to boost it (whereas TTYD might not enjoy the same room to breathe in a situation where it is paired with an upcoming Switch 2).

The Captain said:
If we get amiibo for the TTYD remake, how far do you think Nintendo will go? Just Mario? Partners? Bosses?
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Considering how conservative and careful Nintendo is currently with Amiibo, probably just Mario himself if they were going this route... And considering they didn't even like use a lot of Amiibo in the past year they could have reprinted, I'm not super convinced Amiibo is as much of a priority for Nintendo these days for Paper Mario to get one, which is very disappointing to me.
 
Beanstar40 said:
Seems like as good a time as any to necro my own thread 😎 how are we feeling about the remake. I see it as a statement of intent, like nintendo is saying “okay, we hear you.” The remake looks excellent too. Between this and smrpg, it’s a good time to be a mario rpg fan! Now hopefully we can get them to bring mario and luging i back from the dead. Id also be okay with a paper mario game that had no combat one day tbh. My favorite parts of origami king are when it felt like an adventure game
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I mostly feel like this releasing doesn't mean anything beyond it being another well remembered gamecube game they could pad out the end of the Switch's release schedule with but the fact that they chose to close with it is sort of interesting
 
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Beanstar40 said:
Seems like as good a time as any to necro my own thread 😎 how are we feeling about the remake. I see it as a statement of intent, like nintendo is saying “okay, we hear you.” The remake looks excellent too. Between this and smrpg, it’s a good time to be a mario rpg fan! Now hopefully we can get them to bring mario and luging i back from the dead. Id also be okay with a paper mario game that had no combat one day tbh. My favorite parts of origami king are when it felt like an adventure game
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Too early to say but I’m just happy this and SMRPG are hitting Switch. I’ll be buying both so you can’t say I didn’t try to show Nintendo I want these kind of games lol
 
I can definitely see it meeting TOK. I don’t think PM fans really care that there are other Mario games coming out and it’s not like the games are that similar. Even Mario rpg is different from TTYD even if the dna is still there.

Although, I don’t think sales actually matter here. I think it’s pretty clear that PM has moved in its direction because it’s what the team wants. Not just because of any mandate or whatever.
 
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I loved Color Splash and Super Paper Mario and think Origami King was mostly boring. Will try the new remake when it's out on Switch2.
 
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Between SMRPG remake and especially this TTYD Remake, I'm already getting way more than I expected. So I'm going to buy them, enjoy them and try not to have any further expectations.
 
super paper mario was how i got into the series and since then been pretty addicted to it especially with chugga's walkthrough which was a huge lifesaver for me beating the game.
 
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Evil Lucario said:
If they actually remake the game to work off delta-time and not tie actions to framerates, then that would be good and allow a Switch 2 patch to just play the same. I'm a bit skeptical that will happen, but we shall see.
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Why the skepticism? It looks like a from the ground up remake. I don't see any reason why they would halve the frame rate while not evaluating gameplay impacts
 
AstroOhHey said:
Could always make it like the Mr. Game & Watch amiibo where you can swap out what character's on the base!
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This wouldn’t work because the amiibo data itself can only have the ID of one character.

Also, if they were gonna make a Paper Mario amiibo, surely it would have happened alongside The Origami King rather than this remake.
 
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amiigo said:
Why the skepticism? It looks like a from the ground up remake. I don't see any reason why they would halve the frame rate while not evaluating gameplay impacts
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Simply because it would fundamentally change the difficulty of the game, even if they wanted to preserve the rest of the game's content, and also because Nintendo games still mostly tie game logic to framerate like Breath of the Wild, which originally broke hard when you rose the framerate on emulators.
 
Evil Lucario said:
Simply because it would fundamentally change the difficulty of the game, even if they wanted to preserve the rest of the game's content, and also because Nintendo games still mostly tie game logic to framerate like Breath of the Wild, which originally broke hard when you rose the framerate on emulators.
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The difficulty would likely be rebalanced anyway.

There is no way the gameplay will be absolutely 1:1 with the GameCube version.
 
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Evil Lucario said:
Simply because it would fundamentally change the difficulty of the game, even if they wanted to preserve the rest of the game's content, and also because Nintendo games still mostly tie game logic to framerate like Breath of the Wild, which originally broke hard when you rose the framerate on emulators.
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Something to note here: game logic being tied to framerate is far, far more limiting when you're modding an existing, compiled game. When you have access to the source, it's a lot easier to make whatever tweak you want.

If they did halve the framerate (and I'm not convinced that's the case just yet; it'd be weird of them to stick a 60fps editing effect into a trailer for a 30fps game), then they already had to go through the effort of fixing everything related to that. It'd be a very opportune time to move things to delta time, especially to preserve the timings and balance of the original.
 
Phendrift said:
This tweet got a laugh out of me the other day
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I'd sooner replay Sonic 06 than SS 😂.

Mario Sunshine is a bad Mario game but a good game all things considered.

SS is just a bad game all things considered. It's one of the most boring games I've played next to Yoshi's Crafted World or whatever that's called.
 
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JR436 said:
Other M might be another example of this, though to a lesser extent.
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I feel the difference with Other M is bad story aside you could honestly tweak it in smaller ways like analog support/how aiming missiles work to instantly improve its gameplay, while with Sticker Star I think you have to seriously rethink some of its fundamentals to get it to even Color Splash's level.
 
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