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Discussion The Mario Sunshine we never got

Gingerbread Man

Gingerbread Man

Paratroopa
We all know that Super Mario Sunshine was rushed. But what would it have been like with more time? On The Cutting Rom Floor, there are quite a few details but scattered over several pages. I was bored, and tried to connect all the dots.

Delfino Plaza. Every time a level changes, it goes to a different "state". For example, when Delfino Plaza is flooded, state 9 is activated ("dolpic9"). To quote CRF, "Delfino Plaza has eight states with different activities: dolpic0, dolpic1, and dolpic5 through dolpic10. This suggests that three Plaza states, dolpic2, dolpic3, and dolpic4 were removed." In other words, more events were planned for Delfino Plaza.

Pinna Park... Oh boy. Pinna Park was likely going to be a secondary hub, not a level. You read that right -- Pinna Park would have hosted the portals to Noki Bay and Pianta Village. The former, named "mareGate" (mare = "Sea" in Italian, and the Japanese name for the Noki), was going to be a giant shell (see here). The latter was going to be part of that weird Pianta tree... and in a pre-release trailer, we can see something like a door!
SMS_Early_pinna_park.png

Furthermore, the last mission of Pinna Park ("Roller Coaster Balloons") is named pinnaBoss0.arc, whereas the fight against Bowser's Jr. is pinnaBoss1.arc. This suggests that the balloon mission was planned to go before the actual boss, as a sort of tutorial. While the order of the missions was modified for other stages as well, Pinna Park is really a mess. They probably re-purposed what they had for Pinna Park the Hub into Pinna Park the Level at the eleventh hour. Three additional cutscenes and six secret stages were also planned for Pinna Park.

Secret Stages. Besides the 6 Pinna stages, we know they removed 3 secret levels from Delfino Plaza, and 1 from Bianco Hill, Noki Bay, Pianta Village, and Corona Mountain each (more on Corona Mountain later...). But there's something even more interesting. Looking at the names of the secret stages, we can infer they were moved around:
  • Delfino Plaza's Turbo Nozzle secret stage was originally planned for Bianco Hills;
  • Noki Bay episode 6 secret stage was originally planned for Ricco Harbor;
  • Pinna Park episode 6 secret stage was originally planned for Sirena Beach. Note this is specifically Sirena Beach, not Hotel Delfino; internally, they are treated as different levels. Maybe Sirena Beach was originally going to be bigger?
  • The remaining six secret stages from Bianco Hills (ep. 6 and 3), Ricco Harbor (ep. 4), Pinna Park (ep. 2), and Hotel Defino (ep. 6) were planned for Corona Mountain.
  • Finally, the Corona Mountain stage we had is technically a secret stage as well.

Corona Mountain. So, by connecting the dots, it seems Corona Mountain was going to have 7 secret stages, plus the final one we have in the final game. 6 of those were repurposed for the other levels. Maybe Corona had a hub-like structure, and Mario had to complete those harder challenges before fighting Bowser?

Other levels. In the Japanese version of the game, we can find unused text with a list of stations, and dialogues referring to a ticket system (like in Sonic Adventure?). They also reference "Sol coins", seen in earlier materials. How much of this was still relevant in 2002 is debatable; maybe they just decided to go in a different direction (it's hard to imagine Pinna Park connected to the other levels by a train... and a train in general). Still, the leftover texts mention the names of potential unused levels:
  • Hotel Lacrima (Italian for "tear")
  • Eruyt Rock (a rock in the middle of the sea?)
  • Gunkanjima (Temporary) Harbor (an abandoned, artificial island)
  • Fire Temple (Temporary) Exterior
  • Lighthouse Island (Temporary) Harbor
While those ideas are fascinating, note that most of them are "Temporary" -- whereas none of the levels we had in the final games are labeled as such. Interestingly, Sirena Beach and Hotel Delfino appear as two independent locations (in case you are wondering, Pinna Park and Pinna Beach are internally seen as connected locations -- literally named pinnaParco and pinnaBeach).

So, were they going to include more levels? Hard to tell; outside of this list of stations, none of these locations is mentioned everywhere else, and I believe that information is from a way older iteration of the game (in other world, it is entirely possible that even with all the time in the world, they would have not included them).

As @MondoMega notes, these locations are also referenced without the Temp. label elsewhere, sans Lighthouse Island. Interestingly, Eruyt changed its name to Erto, which is Italian for Steep, following the naming scheme of the other levels.

Sms-title5-6.png


What we can say for certain is that Pinna Park was going to be a hub. In hindsight, Pinna Park has a very open structure which you would expect from a hub. Since it would have been a waste to have Pinna Park as a secondary hub only for two levels (Noki Bay and Pianta Village, aka Mare Village and Monte Village), maybe they planned at least one additional level (or alternatively, a more developed Sirena Beach). After all, in the screenshot above, Hotel Lacrima, Erto Rock, Warship Island, and the Fire Shine are all listed after Pinna Park. Interestingly, all the levels do take place on Delfino Island (and you can see other locations afar). However, CRF notes that "Noki Bay isn't on a dolphin-shaped island at all -- likely due to the stage being rushed as it was the final stage added before release".

You can see how at some point, things started to fall apart -- Pinna Park was entirely repurposed, Noki Bay was rushed, Corona Mountain was shortened with most of its content given to other levels, and other levels were (potentially) scrapped altogether.
 
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This is why Sunshine is one of my most wanted video game remakes. Even in its rushed and flawed form, it's still my second or third favorite of the 3D Marios; just imagine the absolute banger it could have been if given time to realize its full potential

Guess it was too powerful. It had to be nerfed so future games would have a chance
 
Really great, well-researched post. A lot of those big GameCube titles in the first year and spare change (Melee, Sunshine, Wind Waker) were rushed out incomplete in general but for my money Sunshine came out the worst of the lot; always wonder about how different (better) it could've been if it were given the time it so desperately needed.

just one thing I want to correct though:

Gingerbread Man said:
Hard to tell; outside of this list of stations, none of these locations is mentioned everywhere else
Click to expand...

These stages (minus Lighthouse Island, seemed to be the first to go) are referenced with differing non-Temporary titles in two other places:

title.blo
  • Hotel Lacrima
  • Eruyt Rock
  • Warship Island
  • Fire Shrine
title.szs (title5, a debug stage selection menu)
  • Mostly the same as the above but with Erto Rock instead of Eruyt Rock.
Sms-title5-6.png
 
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I know Nintendo is very secretive of their games but I would love for someone to interview Sunshine staff and get a better understanding of what was cut.
 
MondoMega said:
Really great, well-researched post. A lot of those big GameCube titles in the first year and spare change (Melee, Sunshine, Wind Waker) were rushed out incomplete in general but for my money Sunshine came out the worst of the lot; always wonder about how different (better) it could've been if it were given the time it so desperately needed.

just one thing I want to correct though:



These stages are referenced with differing non-Temporary titles in two other places:

title.blo
  • Hotel Lacrima
  • Eruyt Rock
  • Warship Island
  • Fire Shrine
title.szs (title5, a debug stage selection menu)
  • Mostly the same as the above but with Erto Rock instead of Eruyt Rock.
Sms-title5-6.png
Click to expand...
Very interesting! And they are roughly following the in-game order here; maybe they were really going to develop (some of?) them after Noki Bay. Although not very common, "Erto" is Italian for "Steep", which fits the naming scheme of the other locations.
 
It would be incredible if that Spaceworld 2001 Sunshine demo leaked to the public. That would be like the holy grail of lost media content for me.
 
while it’s not unused (somewhat, the game does use the .bmp files for tracking pollution. but there’s a few that aren’t applied.)
the goop maps are absolutely wild
SMStestpollution.png

there’s a silhouette of the test enemy “Kug”.
SMSpollution00.PNG

there’s a goofy sketch of the unused “Hinokuri” enemy.
SMSpollution.png

and there’s this random creepy pasta image.
 
Sunshine is probably my favorite or 2nd favorite 3D Mario game, even with all its flaws it is still one of a kind to me.
 
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Even as a kid I thought that Sunshine felt duct taped together, and thanks to all the research people have done we know that to be true. It's easily the worst 3d Mario, but I respect what they were able to do with a 80% game.
 
I think it makes perfect sense this game was rushed. I mean even ignoring the games abysmal quality and how it’s the only 1st party gamecube game that is worse then its N64 counterpart, it was clear by the time Sunshine released that the GameCube needed a mainline Mario game. In hindsight, maybe launching the GameCube with Luigi’s mansion wasn’t the move, as good as that game is
 
Krvavi Abadas said:
while it’s not unused (somewhat, the game does use the .bmp files for tracking pollution. but there’s a few that aren’t applied.)
the goop maps are absolutely wild
SMStestpollution.png

there’s a silhouette of the test enemy “Kug”.
SMSpollution00.PNG

there’s a goofy sketch of the unused “Hinokuri” enemy.
SMSpollution.png

and there’s this random creepy pasta image.
Click to expand...
From secondary sources, we know that the enemies (and weirdly, the Yoshis) were drawn by Bowser Jr.. This is something almost completely lost in the final game (sometimes you can see inks when defeating enemies), which no doubt would have been clearer had the developers had more time. You can almost imagine a melancholic story by Koizumi out of it (Bowser Jr. is left alone while his daddy is busy -> he creates the enemies to have some friends).
 
Pillydillsy said:
I think it makes perfect sense this game was rushed. I mean even ignoring the games abysmal quality and how it’s the only 1st party gamecube game that is worse then its N64 counterpart, it was clear by the time Sunshine released that the GameCube needed a mainline Mario game. In hindsight, maybe launching the GameCube with Luigi’s mansion wasn’t the move, as good as that game is
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Wasn't sunshine the victim of technically not being "a mainline project?" Miyamoto's main team were focused on Luigi's Mansion, Mario 128 (Galaxy+ Pikmin) and Pikmin. While Sunshine was kind of born as a side project that kinda got thrust into being the mainline Mario game of the Gamecube?
 
The game was also running at 60fps in demos shortly before launch, but ended up being capped at 30fps for the final release.

 
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I remember being a kid and I got the new gamecube and I loved Luigis Mansion and Wario World but I got Sunshine and I did like it but I remember when I wanted to play Mario I would usually just get out my old n64 and play 64 instead of sunshine because sunshine felt so weird for me. But as I get older I start to like Super Mario Sunshine alot more. Definitely not my favorite Mario game (not even close) but idk. The more time I spend with this game the more I like it.
 
Mer.Saloon said:
Wasn't sunshine the victim of technically not being "a mainline project?" Miyamoto's main team were focused on Luigi's Mansion, Mario 128 (Galaxy+ Pikmin) and Pikmin. While Sunshine was kind of born as a side project that kinda got thrust into being the mainline Mario game of the Gamecube?
Click to expand...
If this was true that makes alot of sense tbh
 
Bulborb said:
If this was true that makes alot of sense tbh
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Don't quote me on that being true, I don't remember where I heard the side project angle. Sunshine still was an EAD game, so even if it was a "side game" it wasn't a totally without supervision kind of thing. My understanding has been it was a Mario game from the early stage but not a super scrutinized one at least as scrutinized a 64 and Galaxy were that kind of became, THE main game by unfortunate circumstance.
 
Mer.Saloon said:
Don't quote me on that being true, I don't remember where I heard the side project angle. Sunshine still was an EAD game, so even if it was a "side game" it wasn't a totally without supervision kind of thing. My understanding has been it was a Mario game from the early stage but not a super scrutinized one at least as scrutinized a 64 and Galaxy were that kind of became, THE main game by unfortunate circumstance.
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If thats true it explains why 64 and Galaxy are way more polished than sunshine. I dont mean this in a too negative way because I also love the sonic series but, I always say Sunshine is the only Mario game that feels like it was made by Sonic Team/Sega because it has that bit of sonic jank in it being unpolished if that makes sense lol
 
Mer.Saloon said:
Wasn't sunshine the victim of technically not being "a mainline project?" Miyamoto's main team were focused on Luigi's Mansion, Mario 128 (Galaxy+ Pikmin) and Pikmin. While Sunshine was kind of born as a side project that kinda got thrust into being the mainline Mario game of the Gamecube?
Click to expand...
I don't think that's the case. Outside of Pikmin, Miyamoto wasn't particularly involved in those early 00s projects. They were Koizumi (Sunshine), Aonuma (Wind Waker), Konno (Luigi), and Eguchi's (Animal Crossing) babies. For Sunshine, he was a producer alongside Tezuka, he gave some instruction (he didn't like having human characters outside of Mario, which you can see in early footage), and he instructed the team to preserve the freedom of movement of Mario 64.
 
Gingerbread Man said:
I don't think that's the case. Outside of Pikmin, Miyamoto wasn't particularly involved in those early 00s projects. They were Koizumi (Sunshine), Aonuma (Wind Waker), Konno (Luigi), and Eguchi's (Animal Crossing) babies. For Sunshine, he was a producer alongside Tezuka, he gave some instruction (he didn't like having human characters outside of Mario, which you can see in early footage), and he instructed the team to preserve the freedom of movement of Mario 64.
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Yeah that's what I suspected too. But then I wonder where the side game angle/theory came from. Sunshine does in a lot of ways feels like it didn't build off the lessons of 64 but was trying to carve it's own identity with elements from 64.

Even on the cutting room floor it doesn't feel like Sunshine was acknowledge as the main new Mario game until late in the cycle, 2001 spaceworld is pretty late, while something like the Mario 128 demo was shown off in 2000. And sunshine was distant from that project.
 
Sunshine has always felt kind of divorced from the chronology of the series to me. The 3D Mario games from Galaxy on have an obvious relationship to each other, but I think Jungle Beat was that team's first game, wasn't it? And Sunshine meanwhile never really felt like the product of the people who made the classic Mario games either. Though it's hard to tell what about it was intentional design because of how unfinished it is. Was the "only Shadow Mario missions matter" thing an actual design choice that speaks to a complete lack of understanding of why Mario 64 was structured the way it was, or was it only there because whatever they had originally planned to do wasn't functional in the state the game released in? I'd honestly guess the former because the episode structure seems far more intrinsic to the game's concept but the way they did it is completely incompatible with Mario 64's pacing on multiple levels. They should have scrapped having you kicked out of the level after each Shine as soon as they knew GameCube was going to have disc loading times. That problem would get much worse before it got better, but at least it suits Galaxy's pacing and structure a lot more than a game that relies on being fast-paced to not become tedious. Wii U 3D World, which is trying to be a throwback to games with short levels and no loading, on the other hand...

Also: weird bit of Sunshine cut content trivia, the health bar the Fury Shadows have in Bowser's Fury was probably based on an unused health bar for the Shadow Mario chases in Sunshine that can be reactivated with a code. I don't know why they took it out, maybe to try and hide how jank his health is?
 
Its strange a 3d Mario wasn't really in development alongside the development of the gamecube the same way mario 64 and the n64 were, then again the n64 was ready to launch way before Mario 64 was which is why the console was delayed so much, like I believe mario 64 2 was never really a thing in actual development just tech demos seeing if mutiplayer mario would work on the 64 after it couldn't be done for the original game and testing out 64dd stuff, and then mario 128 was a separate techdemo for the gamecube that aspects of it became pikmin and then mario galaxy.

Sunshine they had Koizumi start on right after majoras mask and was in development for like a year and a half before being rushed out along with windwaker to try and save the gamecube
 
LouisACommie said:
Its strange a 3d Mario wasn't really in development alongside the development of the gamecube the same way mario 64 and the n64 were, then again the n64 was ready to launch way before Mario 64 was which is why the console was delayed so much, like I believe mario 64 2 was never really a thing in actual development just tech demos seeing if mutiplayer mario would work on the 64 after it couldn't be done for the original game and testing out 64dd stuff, and then mario 128 was a separate techdemo for the gamecube that aspects of it became pikmin and then mario galaxy.

Sunshine they had Koizumi start on right after majoras mask and was in development for like a year and a half before being rushed out along with windwaker to try and save the gamecube
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It feels to me, the tumultuous development of the 64DD and its software ultimately set Nintendo back immensely. Games were scrapped, delayed or had to be ground up reworked for the standard N64, and the system lived longer than it should have. Even a game like Majora coming out late as it did had huge ramifications on the development of Wind Waker after.

The Gamecube's tech was ready pretty early, but the software wasn't even close.
 
That is one thing we can be grateful now; Because Nintendo now has the means to take the time they need with the Switch 2 they have the time to perfect the next 3D Mario game for release, no need to rush it like they had to do with games like Mario sunshine anymore.
 
I think it's hilarious that the gaming community treats Super Mario Sunshine like it's Star Fox Assault, and treats Star Fox Assault like it's Super Mario Sunshine.
 
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AlwaysOnDeck said:
What was wrong with Wind Waker, that wasn't fixed in HD?
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A lot of the islands are filler islands that are barely worth filling up a whole square of the grid. But because of the way the game was designed, you can't have them closer between islands.

There are clearly missing dungeons whose loss is seriously felt on a pacing front. Basically everything to do with Great Fish isle.

Just these two severely hurt the game. Like honestly, if HD cut several grids worth of islands, even if that content was removed you'd get a better paced game. That's how bad it can be even in HD.
 
I knew there was something hub-like about Pinna Park. It always felt way too big for what was in it.

Mer.Saloon said:
Wasn't sunshine the victim of technically not being "a mainline project?" Miyamoto's main team were focused on Luigi's Mansion, Mario 128 (Galaxy+ Pikmin) and Pikmin. While Sunshine was kind of born as a side project that kinda got thrust into being the mainline Mario game of the Gamecube?
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That would explain a lot of things. FLUDD and the difficulty, for two.
 
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Nice.

A real shame as the actual released game is still great, with a great sense of place. This seems like it would have even more of that. Plus fix some textures, performance back to 60fps, and more integrated challenges, and it could have been a shining... Shine.

Imagining it with another six months in the can... These Zelda games getting 5 years dev time shows how complete things can feel.
 
Mer.Saloon said:
A lot of the islands are filler islands that are barely worth filling up a whole square of the grid. But because of the way the game was designed, you can't have them closer between islands.

There are clearly missing dungeons whose loss is seriously felt on a pacing front. Basically everything to do with Great Fish isle.

Just these two severely hurt the game. Like honestly, if HD cut several grids worth of islands, even if that content was removed you'd get a better paced game. That's how bad it can be even in HD.
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This might be a you problem.
 
Would I like to visit a alternate timeline to see a version of Sunshine that got more development time? You bet! The game is perfect as is to me though. Easily my favorite 3D Mario game.
 
I really like Mario Sunshine. It’s my second favorite 3D Mario after Odyssey. I can only imagine how it would be even more fun with more polish.

If you play it where you play what you want and finish it when you’re done, it’s a complete masterpiece. I understand it’s messy if you’re a completionist but that’s not me so I never saw the jank that is referenced on video game forums.

I really like being able to experiment with FLUDD to see what wacky platforming feats you can pull off that you can’t do in other games.
 
Stuff like this makes me wish they'd remaster Sunshine with restored content similar to Xenoblade DE. But it likely will never happen. It's more likely fans will mod the cut content into the game with their own interpretation.

Leo said:
I wish Sunshine and Wind Waker were remade to achieve their full potential.
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Same, but problem with WW is that the cut dungeons were used in later games. So there isn't really much to restore.
 
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Mer.Saloon said:
You'll find a lot of people complain about the filler islands even in HD and the missing dungeons are brought up very regularly when Wind Waker is being discussed.

But if you're going to just answer in 6 word gotchas. Then clearly this isn't a conversation worth having.
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My response was a complete statement that literally responded to your comment. I apologize that I didn't write five paragraphs about why it's a you problem.
 
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