• Hey everyone, staff have documented a list of banned content and subject matter that we feel are not consistent with site values, and don't make sense to host discussion of on Famiboards. This list (and the relevant reasoning per item) is viewable here.
  • Furukawa Speaks! We discuss the announcement of the Nintendo Switch Successor and our June Direct Predictions on the new episode of the Famiboards Discussion Club! Check it out here!

Discussion The ILCA hate - why learning some game development can make our community better

omniryu

omniryu

Koopa
Pronouns
He/him
There's a rumor going on that ILCA, the developers of Pokémon Brilliant Diamond and Shiny Pearl, are the developer of Mario and Luigi: Brothers hip. I don't know if it is true or not and I am not going to find out in this topic. I am more interested that so many people were surprised that they could make something so amazing. For some reason, I don't know why everyone thinks that ILCA was responsible for the shortcoming of BDSP.
If the game had major and I mean major bugs and glitches, yes, it would be largely their fault. However, the majority of the criticism was the lack of content from Platinum and the artstyle. I am not saying you have to know every technical detail.... but at least know who calls the shots.... and that's the key staff at Gamefreak.
 
Not only that but... how can you compare a 1:1 remake vs letting a company make a new game. You can't.

So the concern is that the new ML will be riddled with bugs?

I mean this is something that is easily determined with previews and reviews. So who cares. Let's just wait.

This isn't an issue of "This company does not have the creative capacity to make a good ML game"
 
Last edited:
I've been always been of the belief that the conditions surrounding the development of any game is just as important as the talent involved. Given how Pokémon has been mismanaged to varying degrees over the last few years, I don't think the conditions were ever optimal for the Sinnoh remakes to truly thrive.

Early days but it looks Brothership has been given the requisite time to be properly developed.
 
Heres a quick story on why you shouldnt hate a dev cause of 1 release. the same developer that made bubsy 3d also made syphon filter. one of the worst games ever made to one of the goatest games ever made.

anyway outside of the internet bubble there are some who enjoyed the 1:1 remakes.
 
Diamond and Pearl were bad on DS. Everyone now remember Platinum but the originals weren’t really good games.

ILCA probably had not much time to develop a 1:1 remake of bad Pokémon games, that’s it.
 
BDSP is not ILCA's only game you know.... They also did One Piece Odyssey and the recent Sand Land and both are pretty fine games. They capable of creating good games, when given the right amount of time and resources.
 
I think it's very strange that people are bummed about this game that looks visually fantastic being possibly developed by ILCA all because of a remake that did not look fantastic.
Like THE big complaints with BDSP just do not apply here at all, why are people worried? I guarantee BDSP's shortcomings were more cause of Pokemon dev cycles being rushed and hellish than ILCA's quality as developers, considering they've made other great games.
 
I think an important thing to note about BDSP is that it did launch with a ton of bugs. Famously V1 of game lacks the title sequence and had to be patched in (the game inherits bugs from the original Diamond and Pearl).

I personally don’t think ILCA is a bad developer and each development team can grow and become better but it’s a bit weird seeing people trying to say none of BDSP’s flaws can be attributed to ILCA.

Edit: Brothership looks good so if it is an ILCA game, that’s great!
 
or people could just stop jumping on other people for being skeptical of a dev for how their previous work turned out

not everything has to be an argument you have to try and "win"
 
Quoted by: Ab
1
9-Volt said:
BDSP is not ILCA's only game you know.... They also did One Piece Odyssey and the recent Sand Land and both are pretty fine games. They capable of creating good games, when given the right amount of time and resources.
Click to expand...
This is a tale as old as the games industry. Tose is another good example of a studio that can do good work when given time, resources, and good direction. But they also did some pretty dire projects in the early days with publishers that weren’t willing to properly invest in the project.
 
goldrogerii said:
I think an important thing to note about BDSP is that it did launch with a ton of bugs. Famously V1 of game lacks the title sequence and had to be patched in (the game inherits bugs from the original Diamond and Pearl).

I personally don’t think ILCA is a bad developer and each development team can grow and become better but it’s a bit weird seeing people trying to say none of BDSP’s flaws can be attributed to ILCA.

Edit: Brothership looks good so if it is an ILCA game, that’s great!
Click to expand...
I think the idea is that with how Pokemon games are handled nowadays, especially when you include the pandemic, that it is easier to take fault off of ILCA.
 
I don’t think putting ‘hate’ in thread titles followed by generalisations like ‘a rumour’ then being followed by ‘everyone thinks’ really helps the community either.

I mean, I get the topic you want to talk about and it’s interesting, but the title and OP could have framed it a bit better.
 
9-Volt said:
BDSP is not ILCA's only game you know.... They also did One Piece Odyssey and the recent Sand Land and both are pretty fine games. They capable of creating good games, when given the right amount of time and resources.
Click to expand...
The staff crossover between these games and BDSP isn’t so significant.
 
Last edited:
Hocot8 said:
I think the idea is that with how Pokemon games are handled nowadays, especially when you include the pandemic, that it is easier to take fault off of ILCA.
Click to expand...
Sure but I still don’t think ILCA can be absolved of all the flaws of that game. TPC’s tight timelines and ILCA didn’t do a great job with BDSP can co-exist.
 
The only game I know from them is BDSP, which I thought was mediocre. Does that mean the next game will also not be good? No, but you can't exactly say it's unfair for me to be tentative, right? They didn't exactly impress me with my only experience with them, regardless of the speculative reasons.

If people want to be wary given ICLA's involvement, I think it's justified. If Brothership turns out to be a critical success, then I'll update my opinion.
 
rickyson33 said:
or people could just stop jumping on other people for being skeptical of a dev for how their previous work turned out

not everything has to be an argument you have to try and "win"
Click to expand...
Well it is a silly thing to complain about a game before it's really out especially using one example that doesn't really work when they have other things that aren't nearly "as bad"
 
I personally disagree about the problems with BDSP being art style or lack of Platinum content. That vaseline smear makes the game mostly unplayable to me and I’m sure there exists a list of ways the game falls short of Let’s Go Pikachu and Eevee on twitter or something.

I’m not saying there’s no way Brothership will be good, but the last 10 or so years of Mario & Luigi’s history with Alpha Dream wasn’t exactly stellar and now the “bad Pokémon remake” team is on it. I know One Piece fans weren’t thrilled by Odyssey and I didn’t hear much of anything at all about Sand Land which doesn’t inspire confidence.

Like I said in the other thread, this is definitely a game where I’ll wait to see the reviews and fan reception. It’s not like the game is going anywhere after a few months and there are great new switch games coming out all the time.
 
There is a paradox to observe, and which applies elsewhere than in video games, is that at the same time as the press weakens, and that it becomes a simple advertising and communication tool and loses its critical role, there is a radicalization of opinions and their dissemination, a simplification of discourse through social networks in particular.

As constructed and legitimate criticism becomes impossible, it is controversy, exaggeration and sometimes verbal violence that become audible and generate commitment.

This is why concentration in the video game press sector is a problem. That’s also why we need educational content that explains to people how to make a video game, how to manage a deadline, who does what, etc.

I think that the majority of excessive people are not necessarily of bad will but let themselves be carried away by a certain passion and a disinhibition induced by the internet. Of course Pokémon is a special case because it is a gigantic and emotionally important franchise for many people in the world, so it multiplies these phenomena tenfold. But I think that when you are also able to observe the richness of observations and discussions between fans, there is a world where you are able to explain things to people and where people will understand them very well.

Then there are always exceptions, for example to devote a lot of time to a passion, make quality content, and still fall into an absurd and manichean aggressive discourse about this or that creator. It’s a shame, but I don’t think it’s the majority of people.
 
Not so off topic: Guess the developer of these games:

Captain America: Super Soldier

Captain America: Super Soldier combines a highly athletic combat system with fluid platforming and a highly tuned suite of shield attacks, as Cap explores a massive castle turned military installation. His shield can be employed in numerous ways: taking out multiple enemies at once, deflecting...
www.metacritic.com www.metacritic.com

en.wikipedia.org

Transformers: Cybertron Adventures - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Spider-Man: Friend or Foe

Spider-Man: Friend or Foe challenges players to defeat and then join forces with notorious movie nemeses including Doc Ock, Green Goblin, Venom and Sandman, and other classic Spider-Man characters. Players embark on a global quest to overcome an evil threat, by controlling Spider-Man and one of...
www.metacritic.com www.metacritic.com

Next level games average output before becoming a Nintendo second party
 
Last edited:
boodream said:
This is why concentration in the video game press sector is a problem. That’s also why we need educational content that explains to people how to make a video game, how to manage a deadline, who does what, etc.
Click to expand...
I agree with this but I fear that it would be still be weaponised because there’s only so much that can be explained without having experienced them yourself.
 
It's not just that ILCA deserves an opportunity and not to be judged based only on the Pokemon remakes. Nintendo has proved in the past that, in collaboration with small-medium sized studios, it is capable of reaching new heights in their history and release all their potential.
 
Triistan said:
Not so off topic: Guess the developer of these games:

Captain America: Super Soldier

Captain America: Super Soldier combines a highly athletic combat system with fluid platforming and a highly tuned suite of shield attacks, as Cap explores a massive castle turned military installation. His shield can be employed in numerous ways: taking out multiple enemies at once, deflecting...
www.metacritic.com www.metacritic.com

Transformers: War for Cybertron critic reviews

Metacritic aggregates music, game, tv, and movie reviews from the leading critics. Only Metacritic.com uses METASCORES, which let you know at a glance how each item was reviewed.
www.metacritic.com www.metacritic.com

Spider-Man: Friend or Foe

Spider-Man: Friend or Foe challenges players to defeat and then join forces with notorious movie nemeses including Doc Ock, Green Goblin, Venom and Sandman, and other classic Spider-Man characters. Players embark on a global quest to overcome an evil threat, by controlling Spider-Man and one of...
www.metacritic.com www.metacritic.com

Next level games average output before becoming a Nintendo second party
Click to expand...
Transformers was good, and Punch Out and Mario Strikers had already released before this.

korok said:
It's not just that ILCA deserves an opportunity and not to be judged based only on the Pokemon remakes. Nintendo has proved in the past that, in collaboration with small-medium sized studios, it is capable of reaching new heights in their history and release all their potential.
Click to expand...
Not always. Not to name any names but there are a few of these smaller devs that are pretty consistent whether they’re working with Nintendo or say, Sega.
 
Brock Reiher said:
Transformers was good, and Punch Out and Mario Strikers had already released before this.
Click to expand...
The point doesn’t change: you can’t judge a developer only by the finale product quality if you don’t know how the publisher handled the project. As you said, the team behind Mario strikers and punch out made in the same years forgettable tie-in.

We see this every day, rocksteady after a top tier trilogy spent years on a game nobody bought because WB forced them to do a GAAS. Redfall was made by Prey and Dishonored team. EA destroyed BioWare with Anthem.
 
0
I agree that ILCA should be given a chance (especially since Brothership looks phenomenal so far!!), but it’s hard to blame fans for being concerned when their most famous title (out of only a few they’ve developed) released unfinished and was a letdown for many fans. I’m not saying it’s entirely ILCA’s fault; they obviously had a lot of restrictions imposed upon them by management, but it’s not too far-fetched for fans to be a bit concerned
 
Nintendo allowed the developers of Color Splash and Sticker Star to work on the new Paper Mario? Yikes. I'll be skipping this Thousand Year Bore.
 
Triistan said:
Not so off topic: Guess the developer of these games:

Captain America: Super Soldier

Captain America: Super Soldier combines a highly athletic combat system with fluid platforming and a highly tuned suite of shield attacks, as Cap explores a massive castle turned military installation. His shield can be employed in numerous ways: taking out multiple enemies at once, deflecting...
www.metacritic.com www.metacritic.com

Transformers: War for Cybertron critic reviews

Metacritic aggregates music, game, tv, and movie reviews from the leading critics. Only Metacritic.com uses METASCORES, which let you know at a glance how each item was reviewed.
www.metacritic.com www.metacritic.com

Spider-Man: Friend or Foe

Spider-Man: Friend or Foe challenges players to defeat and then join forces with notorious movie nemeses including Doc Ock, Green Goblin, Venom and Sandman, and other classic Spider-Man characters. Players embark on a global quest to overcome an evil threat, by controlling Spider-Man and one of...
www.metacritic.com www.metacritic.com

Next level games average output before becoming a Nintendo second party
Click to expand...
Brock Reiher said:
Transformers was good, and Punch Out and Mario Strikers had already released before this.


Not always. Not to name any names but there are a few of these smaller devs that are pretty consistent whether they’re working with Nintendo or say, Sega.
Click to expand...

War For Cybertron wasn't Next Level Games, either.

And also a great game overall.
 
Brothership looks promising so far so I am willing to have an open mind about it. I just hope they pare down the minigames and tutorials, the M&L sequels were bloated with that stuff.
 
people shouldn't be weird about it, but it's perfectly reasonable to say 'their last game was bad so I'm skeptical about their next one'
 
Why are people talking about this like it's confirmed and they're already skeptical or even dooming? Like..... We don't actually know yet, right? Did I miss something?
 
I still don't get the BDSP hate. Best direction Pokémon games have had on Switch so far. ILCA nailed what it would be like to translate a DS game for Switch. And I'd rather have more games made in that style than in the Legends, SwSh, or SV styles.

And M&L seems to be another RPG in that old-school vein.
 
Hating on support studios is completely baffling. Like what do you even do with Tose? They've made legitimately thousands of games, sometimes not even credited, throughout the entire history of console gaming, responsible for helping on absolute garbage and plenty of modern games that are absolutely beloved.

But nah, ILCA touched a Pokemon game in a generation where every Pokemon game has been given 0 time and runs terribly (except for New Pokemon Snap) so they're clearly the devil and now we have to hold that against them for all eternity. Preposterous.

Anyone immediately hating on a game because ILCA is in the credits should be ignored completely and utterly.
 
I love nothing more than a redemption arc in the eyes of the public. Go back and look at the comments to the announcement of Mercury Steam working on Samus Returns.

These teams are made up of some incredibly talented developers, sometimes it just takes the right project for people to see that potential.
 
Never hated ILCA, they probably did their best homework with the directions given by Junichi "Faithful Remake" Masuda
 
0
The thing I always try to keep in mind whenever a "new name" pops up to work with Nintendo (and I would consider ILCA a new name here, because Pokemon is a separate thing with its own unique set of baggage) is that Nintendo frequently manages to elevate the studios it works with
  • Before MercurySteam made Samus Returns, their last game was a 63 metacritic Castlevania game
  • Before Mario Strikers, Next Level's catalog was an OK hockey game and apparently some support work on The Suffering, a game nobody's thought of in 20 years
  • By all accounts, Retro was an absolute mess before Nintendo stepped in, cancelled most of their projects, and got them to focus solely on what would become Metroid Prime
If ILCA is behind the new Mario&Luigi, and even if it's accepted as fact that their prior output has wholly been "bad/mediocre games", I'd still be reasonably optimistic that collaborating with Nintendo could be the thing that moves them from (at the risk of being overly reductive and referencing video game reviews as if they were objective markers of quality) putting out 60s and 70s on metacritic to 80s or 90s
 
BlackthornOrion said:
The thing I always try to keep in mind whenever a "new name" pops up to work with Nintendo (and I would consider ILCA a new name here, because Pokemon is a separate thing with its own unique set of baggage) is that Nintendo frequently manages to elevate the studios it works with
  • Before MercurySteam made Samus Returns, their last game was a 63 metacritic Castlevania game
  • Before Mario Strikers, Next Level's catalog was an OK hockey game and apparently some support work on The Suffering, a game nobody's thought of in 20 years
  • By all accounts, Retro was an absolute mess before Nintendo stepped in, cancelled most of their projects, and got them to focus solely on what would become Metroid Prime
If ILCA is behind the new Mario&Luigi, and even if it's accepted as fact that their prior output has wholly been "bad/mediocre games", I'd still be reasonably optimistic that collaborating with Nintendo could be the thing that moves them from (at the risk of being overly reductive and referencing video game reviews as if they were objective markers of quality) putting out 60s and 70s on metacritic to 80s or 90s
Click to expand...
And don’t forget the shitstorm when the first details of Mario+Rabbids leaked. 6 months later, Ubisoft Milan delivered a great game.
 
Ab said:
Is it even confirmed to be ILCA?
Click to expand...
No, Nintendo hasn’t disclosed the developer. It’s just a commonly speculated choice (particularly because Nintendo did confirm ex-AlphaDream employees are working on Brothership and ILCA received a notable exodus of them in the past).
 
BlackthornOrion said:
The thing I always try to keep in mind whenever a "new name" pops up to work with Nintendo (and I would consider ILCA a new name here, because Pokemon is a separate thing with its own unique set of baggage) is that Nintendo frequently manages to elevate the studios it works with
  • Before MercurySteam made Samus Returns, their last game was a 63 metacritic Castlevania game
  • Before Mario Strikers, Next Level's catalog was an OK hockey game and apparently some support work on The Suffering, a game nobody's thought of in 20 years
  • By all accounts, Retro was an absolute mess before Nintendo stepped in, cancelled most of their projects, and got them to focus solely on what would become Metroid Prime
If ILCA is behind the new Mario&Luigi, and even if it's accepted as fact that their prior output has wholly been "bad/mediocre games", I'd still be reasonably optimistic that collaborating with Nintendo could be the thing that moves them from (at the risk of being overly reductive and referencing video game reviews as if they were objective markers of quality) putting out 60s and 70s on metacritic to 80s or 90s
Click to expand...
Even Rare were very hit or miss before Nintendo, while they made some solid games like RC Pro A.M or the first Wizards and Warriors, they also made several shitty licensed games on NES and GB, some mediocre games and one of the most unfairly hard games on the NES on Battletoads too. So I don't think anyone expected them to become the company that made DKC, KI and their N64 library.
 
Never understood the logic.
I've seen good Devs make bad games and great Devs publish meh products (bayonetta 2 and legend of kora... Both platinum, but different budgets)

Here I'm confident that budget and time constraints came into play.
So if Nintendo sad: "you did well, here's another project, this time with less strict window for development", then I could see it work out.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


Back
Top Bottom