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Discussion "The Formula" wasn't what hurt the Zelda series. An opinion.

freedomseekr

life is noise
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Ever since the release of Breath of the Wild, Zelda fans have fallen into two camps. One, which loves the game and sees it as a breath of fresh air - even if not everything about it is perfect and we can admit to it - and one, albeit much smaller, which thinks the game is too much of a departure from the series and wish for it to "return to form".

At the heart of this lies something frequently called "The Zelda Formula", which is probably best described as an informal structural rule of how Zelda games play out. Said rule, although it can be vague at times, is probably best summarised as follows:

All Zelda games have dungeons, in which items can be found. These items are used as weapons, to solve puzzles and to progress further through the game.

Now, to me, that's not a bad rule for the backbone of a video game. So why is it that by Skyward Sword in 2011, so many players were clamouring that Zelda was "too formulaic", that the series needed changing and why is it that Breath of the Wild ended up being so celebrated? Many believe that it was because it played to "industry trends", but I'd argue that it was something else. And to explain what exactly that something is, I'm going to pose a question first:

What if there was a second aspect to Zelda games that had fallen by the wayside and ultimately led to dissatisfaction with "The Formula"?

And to do that, I'm going to take a peek into the past and explain how things had changed around the series over time. Now, I'll probably start with A Link to the Past, since it is generally seen as the starting point of the "Zelda formula", but it also allows me to highlight the first problem that begun to emerge with the Zelda series over time and that is the change in what I call the game's "macro structure", i.e. how it plays out when zoomed out and looked at from beginning to end.

Now, one of the things that I personally really like about A Link to the Past is that, for the most part, it is entirely "item gated", meaning that progress in the game is tied to the items you possess. The game gives you an order of the dungeons in the Dark World, but it's ultimately up to you how to go through this phase, as only a few of the dungeons do actually require you to have beaten the last numbered dungeon or gotten its item to continue onward. And moreover, not all items that help you gain access to the dungeons are found in the dungeons prior or even in dungeons at all. Take, for example, the Titan's Mitt, which is found in Thief's Town, the fourth dungeon. You don't actually need to beat the Swamp Palace or Skull Woods to go here, you can just... go and grab the Titan's Mitt as soon as you have the Hammer if you want to (if you're extreme, you can just leave Palace of Darkness after you got it), which opens up a significant portion of the game in this phase. I very much enjoy this - the game gives you a suggestion of where to go, but it's not necessary to follow it all the way.

Ocarina of Time works in a similar fashion - sure, you can follow the order of dungeons in the Adult part of the game to a T, but there's nothing stopping you from tackling the Water Temple first right after coming back from the Forest Temple. And if you have Epona, you can get into Gerudo Town early as well and beat it, if you're good at stealth. There's still a structure to things, such as the Shadow Temple being only unlocked after beating the Fire and Water Temples, but in general, the second portion of Ocarina lets you test the waters a bit and offers some more openness to the player.

Majora's Mask is a bit more linear, but given that its meatier part lies with the interactions with the people of Termina, it's not too bad - and hell, if you want to, you don't have to finish Great Bay before heading to Ikana Canyon, just grab the Ice Arrows and cross the river to climb up. But what Majora's Mask does most and this is probably the part I love about both it and its predecessors and is ultimately the thing I believe the Zelda series lost over time is the idea that going out of your way and exploring can give you something useful. It doesn't have to be something of major consequence, but finding the Stone Mask in the original Majora's Mask, for example - btw, this is my least favourite change with the 3D version by far - shows what this can do in the context of these games.

Wind Waker is an odd duck in this regard, but ultimately I like it a lot more than the games that came after - it still has a ton of exploration to do and while a particularly annoying trend begun to rear its ugly head in this game, it's nowhere near as bad as it gets - as it still has a ton to explore and even the new items are still fun to play with and have their uses beyond the initial dungeon they're tied to.

One thing of note here - I didn't talk about the GB(A) games a lot and I'm not going to - I think these issues are much more present in the 3D games, though the 2D/handheld games tend to lose a bit in that regard as well, and I'm not super particular about these outside of Link's Awakening, but if you want a brief breakdown, they're generally pretty great when it comes to adding exploration, though as time goes on, they also fall prey to the issues with the 3D games (especially when we get to the DS, but I'll talk about it when we get there), but not nearly to the same extent.

And now... to Twilight Princess. I'm going to say it straight away, this is by far the game in the Zelda series I probably liked the least for a period of time. I still don't like it and a lot of my issues have nothing to do with the whole "the intro is too long" stuff that gets thrown at it. I can deal with a long intro - heck, I'm on record here for defending the first twenty hours of Dragon Quest VII, that game's intro is about as long as it takes to beat TP - but that comes with the caveat that the rest of the game has to deliver and Twilight Princess just does not deliver for me. The idea I posed above about how going out of your way and exploring can net you something useful or at least let you test the waters to see how far you can go? Yeah this game doesn't have ANY of it. New areas are gated off by story content all throughout the game, the collection side quests feel exceptionally pointless because the only thing the game gives you for them is rupees in such an abandon that they're impossible to spend, especially once you're done with the store side quest, and the Hidden Skills feel useless for the most part, because the game can be quite easy. For all the complaining about the abundance of Korok Seeds and Shrines in BotW - doing them gives you things that actually change aspects of the game in a noticeable fashion, something that feels seriously absent from Twilight Princess. The items in the second half of the game are also just... not that interesting once you've finished getting to the next dungeon and maybe getting a Piece of Heart, which is another thing that feels so antithetical to what makes Zelda games great - like, the Leaf from The Wind Waker sees far more action than the Spinner does once you're done with Arbiter's Grounds. If the story was at least strong enough to carry it, but by god, it's just... not there? The intro feeling so long may have mostly to do with how much time you spend with it only for all the setup to then pay off in the weakest ways possible. If I had to sum up my feelings for it in a food metaphor - imagine going to a multi-course dinner where the courses are very spread out, there's maybe one or two dishes that are really good and all you get in between is room temperature tap water.

I'm not going to dwell too long on the DS games. They're by far my least favourite Zelda games, I've only finished Spirit Tracks once and found Phantom Hourglass so frustrating on repeated attempts to play it. Miss me with 'em.

I think to some degree Skyward Sword was a move in a solid direction - there's more substantial things to do outside of the main plot, although it is all fairly limited, but the upgrading system is at least more useful than TP’s torrent of Rupees. The items are also spaced out in a manner that gives each a bit more utility, unlike TP, where the most useful gear was handed out during the first half and the rest was stuff that lost its usefulness fast. That being said, I'm not a fan of the flying bits and bad traversal tends to sour me quite a bit on otherwise good games, which plays a role in my disliking of the DS games. Also, this game just feels padded out and it rehashes the worst instincts of TP, though I'll admit I like the trials a fair bit more than the light bug hunts.

A Link Between Worlds is another odd duck. The sentiment behind the game shows Nintendo understood that being too tied to a linear pathway through the game was something players were in many ways sick of, but the solution they applied here comes across as though they didn’t quite understand the issue at heart. The Item Rental system is the wrong solution to the series’s issue with having little in the way of rewarding exploration – though its main collect quest was, this time, more useful than those that came before it and it never got too intrusive over the course of the game.

Breath of the Wild, then, is often bemoaned for its lack of “full” dungeons, but overall, the decision to forgo them was, for the foreseeable future, a good choice. Focusing on progress through discovery made the game noticeably meatier and, for lack of better terms, gave the overworld back a sense of identity that hadn’t really been there for a while.

I’m not opposed to traditional Zelda dungeons coming back, but if it once again leads to the rigidity of the games that came after The Wind Waker, I’d rather not. Zelda, at its best, has delivered on both ends – strong dungeons (which, if I can be honest… we hadn’t really gotten at the time either) paired with an interesting world to explore, full of stuff that actually aids you on your quest and not just a few throwaways that don’t really play a role in the experience either.
 
I’ve honestly found the idea of a strict formula a bit odd anyway. It’s not as if item gating and dungeons of more difficult areas capped by a boss fight and with a new ability to get through those gates are anything exclusive to Zelda at this point when various RPGs and Metroidvania titles all use it too. It’s all just game design to justify a reason why ‘you can’t go to this area yet, learn something easier first’, which is what makes doing things ‘out of order’ or stumbling on items you ‘shouldn’t’ have yet, or ‘sequence breaking’ so much fun for players, in the same way that stumbling on a weapon several tiers higher than your current kit in an rpg is so exciting.

I generally find ‘Zelda formula yes/no’ ignores what’s unique and creative about each individual Zelda game outside of its most basic game design building blocks. It wasn’t the lack of a sequence of 8-12 elemental-themed dungeons that made BOTW refreshing to me- when I think about BOTW, I don’t really think about dungeons at all. If anything it made me realise that I don’t consider a set number of more than 4 dungeons essential to Zelda at all, when the games have other ways to offer danger and exploration and challenges and bosses- the Lionel kicked my ass in BotW when I first found it and that was more of an achievement to me than the early bosses in most Zelda games with their ‘use the item, then hit the weak spot with the sword’ play. In the same way that when Spirit Tracks pretty much ditched the entire overworld for its train tracks gameplay it didn’t feel any less ‘Zelda’ to me. The series is a lot more experimental than it gets credit for, long before BOTW.
 
"return to form"
When people say this, as I understand it, what they want is traditional dungeons, traditional meaning themed setpieces with a lock-and-key design, and item-gated progression. They want that specific cadence; they don’t want to be plopped out into the world and be left to their own devices. They want the feeling of progression with the map “opening up” as they clear more dungeons and get more equipment.

And there’s nothing wrong with the formula itself. As @PixelKnight states, it’s not even unique to Zelda. In the end, the application of the “formula” matters. Too down and 3D Zeldas follow the same general design principles, and yet I didn’t like any of pre-BotW 3D Zeldas despite loving LttP, the Oracle games, and Minish Cap. You’ve gone into some reasons for why that is, so I won’t reiterate, but at the end of the day, we can agree it’s the execution that matters.

Overall? Zelda, or any game for that matter, doesn’t need to be this specific thing.
 
Games like God Of War 2018, Souls, even Fallen Order/Survivor, Ratchet & Clank etc show there is life in the classic Zelda formula - unfortunately i feel like it maybe fell into the Pokémon problem of long tutorial/intro sequence, hand holdy etc… - but i think there’s definitely a way to go back to it - when their hardware allows for PS4 kinda level stuff - a big AAA remake of OOT makes a lot of sense to revisit the formula and have a more modern approach to it
 
I've said it several times but I think after TOTK what I would really want is a 3D version of LTTP. A world that is dense where every area has things to do in it rather than big empty stretches, and dungeons all around that are a mix of combat, exploration, and puzzles. But where the series goes after TOTK is a big question mark.

I don't want a remake of OOT or any other games. They're perfectly fine the way they are. I don't want to revisit the same story beats and locations but made more "modern." Give me something new.
 
When people say this, as I understand it, what they want is traditional dungeons, traditional meaning themed setpieces with a lock-and-key design, and item-gated progression. They want that specific cadence; they don’t want to be plopped out into the world and be left to their own devices. They want the feeling of progression with the map “opening up” as they clear more dungeons and get more equipment.
Personally, I feel this is something BotW also delivers on. It's far more subtle than being given an item and then going back to all the places you couldn't before, but I've felt a definitive "curve" between the early game, when you just exit the plateau and then go on and mess around with stuff. Stamina is probably the biggest player here, having a growing amount of stamina changes the way things play out very noticeably - you get places faster, you can go paths and win fights you likely couldn't before.

I’ve honestly found the idea of a strict formula a bit odd anyway. It’s not as if item gating and dungeons of more difficult areas capped by a boss fight and with a new ability to get through those gates are anything exclusive to Zelda at this point when various RPGs and Metroidvania titles all use it too. It’s all just game design to justify a reason why ‘you can’t go to this area yet, learn something easier first’, which is what makes doing things ‘out of order’ or stumbling on items you ‘shouldn’t’ have yet, or ‘sequence breaking’ so much fun for players, in the same way that stumbling on a weapon several tiers higher than your current kit in an rpg is so exciting.
That's a fair point, but my criticism - and I'm probably not alone with this thought - is that for a while, the bolded aspect took a bit of a backseat and the games felt consciously designed to prevent the player from engaging with the games in that manner.
 
A world that is dense where every area has things to do in it rather than big empty stretches, and dungeons all around that are a mix of combat, exploration, and puzzles
More games should honestly do dense worlds.

Personally, I feel this is something BotW also delivers on
I would agree. You get more hearts, more stamina, and most importantly, more knowledge of how the systems work. I started cautiously sticking to simple club swings to doing my best Legolas impression as I felled Lynels. But some people prefer a more guided path of progression.

for a while, the bolded aspect took a bit of a backseat and the games felt consciously designed to prevent the player from engaging with the games in that manner
Frankly, I don't think the capacity for sequence-breaking is what people look for in Zelda games. Stuff like the excessive handholding is exasperating because it makes the game feel like a slog.
 
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What sign is there that Zelda was "hurting" as a franchise? The games all reviewed incredibly well and sold well. BotW is clearly more creative wanting to keep a series fresh and challenge themselves more then a concern that Zelda was going to fall into obscurity. I know the Zelda cycle is to say "that last 1-2 Zelda games everyone loved are actually shit", but vocal minority discourse has never reflected reality.
 
The item progression form past becomes became player understanding of mechanics and skill growth.

Let’s be honest here, Zelda games before botw were ridiculously easy to understand the mechanics combat and puzzles of. Instead of a item system you progress in botw by learning more about what you can do. Which is why I guess for totk they opted for entirely new abilities rather than a new overworked and more of the same, that only really works once. Unless they add a ton to the gameplay loop.
 
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What sign is there that Zelda was "hurting" as a franchise? The games all reviewed incredibly well and sold well. BotW is clearly more creative wanting to keep a series fresh and challenge themselves more then a concern that Zelda was going to fall into obscurity. I know the Zelda cycle is to say "that last 1-2 Zelda games everyone loved are actually shit", but vocal minority discourse has never reflected reality.
I mean with the exception of twilight princess which was a wii launch title, they were all stagnating to shrinking in terms of sales ever since oot.

The Zelda team also realized the fatigue before it happened, ss didn’t break the camels back but one or to more games like that and the past 90’s would be 60’s.
 
The imperfect triforce (WW, TP, SS) all had their part to play in the upheaval of the Zelda series.

The Wind Waker—the first one bold enough to undergo drastic change—was not taken well by the masses whom loved Ocarina of Time, mainly because of its art style; however, the slog that was the triforce quest would emerge as the first major fissure in the formula.

Next, although Twilight Princess was received with applause by the gaming press, it quite possibly had one of the worst intros in the history of entertainment, and was a famous obstacle to all of those new adopters of the Wii becoming permanent fans of the series. Nintendo were initially baffled as to why Twilight Princess didn’t reach the same levels of popularity as Ocarina, and even Miyamoto himself, in that famous quote, seemed to question whether there was a place in the industry for Zelda-style games any more.

Yet Nintendo heeded the wrong lessons and took /even more/ personal freedom from the player. Skyward Sword was the apex of traditional Zelda: it had impeccable dungeons, it was character and story driven, it had an interesting origin world, and yet people hated it. Although I personally really liked Skyward Sword and consider it the best of the imperfect triforce, Nintendo saw two Zelda games achieve only middling success despite launching on a hugely popular piece of hardware, and decided that enough was enough.

Personally, I do get the sense that Skyrim was the game Nintendo learned the most from in the development of BotW. They realised that Twilight Princess’ oppressive totali-(tu)torials, and claustrophobic, arduous dungeons; and Skyward Sword’s linearization and theft of freedom wasn’t popular among gamers. Meanwhile, Skryim, with its huge fantasy world comprising dungeons, quests and an exciting sense of adventure, was massively successful: why?

Nintendo decided to truly go back to the roots, and really reflect on the first-principles design of what it means to play an adventure game: getting lost; a lack of structure; struggle and toil; it would de-emphasise dungeons, which had become increasingly inorganic with successive games; most importantly, it gave the player complete freedom of the world and simply let them get on with it.

The rest is history: Breath of the Wild became the most successful game in the series, and one of the most successful games of all time.

Will Nintendo ever take Zelda back to the imperfect era? I hope not, and I suspect they will not for a very long time. People don’t like four-hour-long bomb dungeons, and that’s ok.
 
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I kinda agree that the success of a Zelda game does not depend on a "formula".

As a player that started the series with OOT and MM, I was progressively let down by the following 3d installments (FWIW I was kinda happy with all the 2d games I've played since though) until BOTW, which I loved despite also having its flaws. So it's not the "formula" that does it for me.

I think this essentially boils down to two main reasons at least for me:
  • first, handholding and gatekeeping in the series grew exponentially to the point that I was legitimately pissed off at the game in SS. This is also connected with your point that allowing exploration of any sort and rewarding it is a core motif of the series and the more you limit it, the more players you are alienating even though you are nailing other parts of the "formula"
  • which bring me to the second reason, which is that pre-BOTW Zelda games constantly underdelivered on their "promise" which is, to me, to live an adventure. We all know that almost every Zelda game had development issues and the team had to cut stuff, but with WW, TP and SS I've always felt like the things that I missed were diminishing the rest of the (still great) stuff I got.

SS is the worst offender in this regard. The pre-dungeon overworld segments were mechanically and gameplay-wise great, but as they were the ONLY segments the game was made of, barring the underwhelming sky, it soured my overall experience.
On the other hand BOTW might have lacked in other compartments (dungeons, sorry beats) but still delivered the full Zelda experience to me. So in the end it's not about formula (I definitely love lock and key dungeons) but more about achieving that balance of adventureness, cleverness, breadth, epicness etc... with whatever mean necessary that ultimately makes the game better than the sum of its parts.
 
Whenever I heard about Zelda being "too formulaic" I never understood that as an attack to the actual Zelda formula in general, but to most Zelda games being too similar, looking and feeling old gameplay-wise.
Even if BotW had an smaller map with classic style dungeons, it wouldn't have been called "formulaic" imo, because the physics, the movement, the gameplay and mechanics are so much better and modern.

Another example, I always joke saying that Okami is my favorite 3D Zelda until BotW. Okami uses the Zelda formula, but no one would dare to say it's "too formulaic", because it simply feel fresh, fun to play, fast, etc. (apart from the differences in the story, setting, and music which are aspects that we're not discussing here).
 
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The only Zelda games I had played before I quit gaming for over a decade were:
Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, The Wind Waker

My perception of the series was one of radical reinvention with each instalment. Even now, thinking about it, I find it difficult to discern the "formula" between those games. I know people talk about things like, "oh you do a wood temple and then a fire temple and then a water temple". But that seems really reductive to me. It almost makes me wonder if some people just consider the games in terms of dungeons. When there's always been way more to Zelda than dungeons.

Breath of the Wild felt like a pretty obvious and natural successor to Ocarina of Time to me. It evoked the exact same feeling of grand adventure twenty years later. It did that in a way that Majora's Mask and Wind Waker really didn't.

All of which is to say, coming online after playing Breath of the Wild and looking at the Discourse was kind of wild to me. In particular, the characterisation of the older Zelda games as being both "formulaic" and "linear", when, at the time I played them, they were decidedly neither of those things
The Hyrule of Ocarina of Time was an environment larger and more open than in any other 3D console game at the time. Yes, to advance the story you have to do certain things in a certain order. But you can also go the opposite direction and do something else entirely. Instead of going to Kakariko Village as kid Link, you can explore down south, visit Lake Hylia, try and fail to get into Gerudo's Fortress (and thereafter discover how interconnected everything is as the river you fall into spits you out in the aforementioned Lake). Even at the very beginning of the game, you can wander into the Sacred Meadow for no reason at all.
Epona, one of the most iconic elements of Ocarina of Time, is completely optional. There is no moment in the main quest where progress is halted and you're told to "get horse". This is something the player decides to do themselves and gets rewarded for. You get the reward by not focusing on the main quest. And likewise, you can also just decide that Hyrule doesn't need saving and just go fishing all day.
The fact that you can do all those things, the day/night cycle, the fact that the world is consistent (ie, the fact that you can see Death Mountain from Hyrule Field, etc), gave the impression that Hyrule was a real place that existed independently of the quest and the player. Things could just exist for their own reason. The gossip stones, for example. This was very fundamental in selling the feeling of Ocarina of Time and why Breath of the Wild felt like a natural follow-up to me.
Importantly, the feeling can exist with or without the "formula" or lock-and-key design. You can still have a linear sequence of progressively more difficult "levels" (dungeons), and have those levels exist in a world that is open-ended and non-linear, full of things that can be done at any time or not at all. The Zelda Formula cousin is the Metroidvania, and those games aren't rigidly linear nor totally open for example.
To some degree, the non-linearity of Ocarina of Time is an illusion. You can't go to Zora's Domain and attempt Jabu Jabu's Belly before Dodongo's Cavern, even though there's no real reason for that restriction. But when you stand in front of the entrance to Zora's Domain and play Zelda's Lullaby, it feels like you could have done that at any time previously. There's a cleverness to that. Everything about the design is meant to convince you that you're the one making the decisions, that you're the one deciding where to go and what to do. That's what makes it an adventure, and you can't sell that if the game is a prescribed corridor of sequences where there is no choice - real or imagined - in the player.

In contrast, the gatekeeping in the opening stretches of The Wind Waker is more obvious and seems more arbitrary. It's not like, "oh I can't go here because I don't have a hookshot". It's "I can't go here because Boat Says No". The game does eventually open up, sure, but I never let go of my grudge against the boat.

I can't speak for the later games in the series, because I still haven't played them. But there's probably a reason for that, given that I have a good opportunity to jump on Skyward Sword and have refused to this date.
 
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It's the handholding, backtracking and tedious quest, those were the worst parts of Zelda. With tedious quest I mean the teardrops in SS and souls or whatever that was in TP.
 
I think the “traditional formula” Zelda should still live on in its 2D releases just like the Mario series. The formula still works but just make a complimentary dish while people wait for the main course.

Links Awakening HD is probably my favorite 2D Zelda and I hope they decide to make new “traditional” adventures with even more new art styles no one expects.
 
-My first Zelda was A Link to the Past (and also Links Awakening after that). I liked the atmosphere of mystery, what quest will I find in the next sandbox and which monstrosity awaits me around the corner.

-Ocarina of Time really manages to transfer this formula into 3D really perfectly. I like the dungeons, the exploration and the sense of dread looming over Hyrules future ( I didn't really like Majoras Mask because of the time restriction, but it's still a good game)

- I also liked Wind Waker. But it had a different feel to it's atomsphere. The sense of dread was tuned down because of cel- shading graphics and story reasons. Exploring the sea was fun, but also felt a bit repetitive over time.

-I also liked Twilight Princess. It has a mysterious story, a dark atmosphere around it and dreadful enemys. But I remember feeling dissapointed that there were no secrets to discover after the main story. And nothing to explore but sandbox levels that feels like tubes.

-Playing Skyward Sword felt like a experiment. It had some interesting ideas (sandship, limbo) and gameplay mechanics. I also liked the story of Demise. But the whole game felt even more like a tube. There was just nothing to explore outside of the story. The sky - part felt very limited and beating the imprisoned so many times wasn't creative at all.

You see. My criticism increased with every new Zelda Game. Breath of the Wild fixed a lit if this problems with it's freedom to explore a huge world, lot of secrets to discover and a apocalyptic looming dread over Hyrule.
 
The problem with “the formula” to me wasn’t necessarily in the macro structure of do three thing, big event, do seven things, final boss. But instead in the mechanical structure of moment to moment gameplay. The action wasn’t strong or deep enough to carry the games on its own like a proper action game. And the puzzles weren’t good enough to support a full game either like in a proper puzzle game. So all you had left was the exploration and sense of adventure, so once they started screwing that up too the whole thing started to feel rote.

So playing TP and SS for the first time and immediately knowing exactly what to do in every room of every dungeon without having to think about it or ever being stumped felt bad. And then the actions needed to accomplish those goals being mechanically uninteresting made it so there was very little true fun to be had for me. Very much going through the motions. And then to top it all off, the overt handholding got more and more restrictive and made everything just feel bad.

So while I think BotW has a ton it needs to improve on in totk, at least the series is at a point where you can just sit down and play it and enjoy it without so many roadblocks and handholding. And while puzzles haven’t improved much at least the mechanics around them have so you can have some fun even if it’s simple. And while combat isn’t amazing at least you’ve got a ton of options and way more stuff to play around with. And most importantly, they no longer interrupt you with a 3 second long cutscene every time you do anything, proving that yes you did in fact do that thing.
 
Speaking of long intros, check out the post above me.

To give a more serious answer: I don’t know but this is my best guess

I think the “formula” was around for a long time for Zelda and other RPG-ish adventure games. The “break” with BotW and now TOTK is special partially due to its novelty.

If the “new formula” stick around for 20 years, it will get old too.

Nintendo tells us the the answer. The true key to a good game is novelty and a great surprise. I think having two team to address both “styles” misses that point.

I think the next game with dungeons and some twist would bc we haven’t seen it at scale (based on install base) since OOT or TP.
 
At least to me Zelda formula is:

Item based progression
Dungeons
Overworld

Imo what BOTW fails is on understanding the importance of Zelda items to the progression and keep gameplay fresh.
My favorite Zelda feeling is getting an item and explore the new gameplay possibilities. To be honest this is more important to me than dungeons. With this you can keep that game fresh during all the playthrough and feel like your character is getting stronger, instead of just some number to justify this perception.

Those gameplay novelties are also the reason why I really like great plateau. It’s basically a small demonstration of this Zelda formula. Initially the only ability you have is climbing. Then you see stuff that at first doesn’t make sense as you can’t interact. At some point you find a shrine, get a new ability, and is ready to experiment it in the overworld, interacting with environment stuff. Then you get the paraglider, again you have a new gameplay element that change how you interact with the world. The fun in the next hours is guaranteed. The same with horses.

After that you’re done of gameplay novelties and the way you play won’t change until the end of the game. That’s near the point where I went from “this game might be one of my favorites ever” to “this is starting to get repetitive like other ow games”.


I don’t want items to be placed and used on a formulaic manner, reason why I agree about the 3d Zelda getting stale complaints . They don’t need to be placed always inside dungeons, they don’t necessarily need to be the way to kill the dungeon boss, they don’t need to always open new paths. They just need to provide new gameplay opportunities.
 
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to me the irony of all the "stale" talk is that in my view they actually made it more stale by abandoning aspects of the series that weren't all that common in other games in favor of making it more like the million big budget open world games already on the market
 
The formula didn't grow stale, but I think that if instead of making a game like BotW they made a more open and bigger OoT it would have been adored by the fanbase and reviewed extremely well but not caught on with the mainstream public in the way BotW did, and it would have been ignored in greater discussions about game of the year and generation.
 
The formula didn't grow stale, but I think that if instead of making a game like BotW they made a more open and bigger OoT it would have been adored by the fanbase and reviewed extremely well but not caught on with the mainstream public in the way BotW did, and it would have been ignored in greater discussions about game of the year and generation.
Wasn't that what Twilight Princess already was supposed to do? And while it did sell a lot, it ended up being a more divisive entry - far more than BotW, which I think did hit that spot that TP and SS failed to hit.

And as someone said, games have used the OoT approach in recent years - Dark Souls in particular is very much molded after OoT's general progression and again, it works a lot better than the Zelda games that came out in the same time frame did. Pinning the overwhelming love for BotW on just the Open World approach is short-sighted to me, that game has a lot of things going on in other departments and unlike @balgajo , the game only got stale for me like... 400 hours in. Which up to that point was probably the longest amount of time I spent in any game in a single playthrough.
 
Wasn't that what Twilight Princess already was supposed to do? And while it did sell a lot, it ended up being a more divisive entry - far more than BotW, which I think did hit that spot that TP and SS failed to hit.

And as someone said, games have used the OoT approach in recent years - Dark Souls in particular is very much molded after OoT's general progression and again, it works a lot better than the Zelda games that came out in the same time frame did. Pinning the overwhelming love for BotW on just the Open World approach is short-sighted to me, that game has a lot of things going on in other departments and unlike @balgajo , the game only got stale for me like... 400 hours in. Which up to that point was probably the longest amount of time I spent in any game in a single playthrough.

I mean without the gating. Like, your OP kind of explains what I mean; there's nothing stopping you from playing OoT more nonlinearly. A game like Twilight Princess that has that openness or games like OoT and aLttP, along with TP's pacing issues fixed, but an increase in scope, would have been very well received by the fanbase. This is still a far cry from a completely open, go-wherever-you-want, focus on exploration and de-emphasis on dungeons and traditionally told story of BotW.

I think a game with the structure of Dark Souls but without the difficulty, online functionality, or gameplay mechanics unique to Souls would have been destined to go down as a critically acclaimed cult classic that should have been bigger than it was. Maybe that's a hot take though, but I do think the reason Souls is such a big hit is because of what it does differently from Zelda.
 
I mean without the gating. Like, your OP kind of explains what I mean; there's nothing stopping you from playing OoT more nonlinearly. A game like Twilight Princess that has that openness or games like OoT and aLttP, along with TP's pacing issues fixed, but an increase in scope, would have been very well received by the fanbase. This is still a far cry from a completely open, go-wherever-you-want, focus on exploration and de-emphasis on dungeons and traditionally told story of BotW.
OK, yeah that is a fair approach.

Though I have to say, I really like the way they told the story in BotW - there's more emphasis on the characters and their relationships as background flavour, which is something that works extremely well for me and it's a bit of a callback to OoT, where the story is also fairly skeletal, but the colourful central cast makes up for it in spades.
 
Another reason the series was starting to feel a bit stale was because we basically had 3 back to back entries on the same level of technology spread across consoles that were primarily active from 2001-2012. By the time Skyward Sword released, games like Skyrim were on the way and laying the groundwork for what future such grand adventures would be like.
 
God war war 2018 did the Skyward sword thing of constantly revisiting locations etc it would have been reciveved way better if it was made in 2023 not 2011

With actual voice acting, tight regular controls and HD graphics.. the games intro gets shat on so much cause there's so much text based dialog. VA would fixed that
 
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I didn't play BOTW until 2020 because I was one of those that felt it didn't look like a true Zelda game. I had beaten every other Zelda title when they released and it started to really bug me that I hadn't added BOTW to the list so I finally decided to buy a switch just to play it. What followed was one of the best video game experiences of my life. BOTW went from 'not a true Zelda game ' to tied with Witcher 3 for my favorite game of all time. The best part was I played them back to back so I got to experience two amazing games consecutively. Man, what a good time that was. Sometimes you get really rewarded for stepping outside your comfort zone.
 
I think we still get traditional 3D Zelda somewhere down the line. But the BoTW shake up absolutely needed to happen.

And I'm glad they did it the moment they got the hardware to do it instead of making the same old thing which is what gamers who complain about the industry being stale actually want lol.
 
Let's not forget that Skyward Sword was a very mediocre Zelda game, lovely visuals and some enjoyable dungeons but repetitive and despite the flying, a complete lack of exploration and adventure (which had been down so well in Windwaker).
BOTW was a quantum leap after that.
 
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Gamers (and Star Wars fans) are the biggest whingeing, crybaby idiots you'll ever find.
The want each game that they "love" to be simultaneously classic, groundbreaking, retro, innovative,completely different and a fresh take etc.
So many takes on Wind Waker and BOTW are all the proof you need.
 
What hurt the series was Ocarina Of Time.

Both LTTP and Ocarina were system defining, genre defining, benchmark setting games, and Ocarina did that to the freshly incoming world of 3D. Since that point, it feels like Nintendo had been hoping to hit that magic again - the Ocarina template, evolved and spun - but never quite managing it. There was always something critical up with it. I'd argue it is the passing of time and other games starting to add interesting mechanics into the 3D arena.

So, it turned out that the best approach wasn't to take Ocarina as the template, but deconstruct the entire series into little bits and rebuild as something fresh and new. That worked. Really well.

BOTW is a Zelda game through and through, but it has got rid of self-imposed barriers in order to achieve it.
 
Gamers (and Star Wars fans) are the biggest whingeing, crybaby idiots you'll ever find.
The want each game that they "love" to be simultaneously classic, groundbreaking, retro, innovative,completely different and a fresh take etc.
So many takes on Wind Waker and BOTW are all the proof you need.
That's basically media in general tbh, especially ONES with nostalgia attached to them
 
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Maybe that's a hot take though, but I do think the reason Souls is such a big hit is because of what it does differently from Zelda.
I don't think it's a hot take at all, honestly.

At least for me, from that time span of TP to SS (including the DS games released in between) it was definitely stuff like Demons/Dark Souls, as well as Monster Hunter, that were giving me exactly what I wanted where I was left feeling unfulfilled "at home" with Zelda.
 
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I don't find Zelda games and Souls game that comparable at all.
They are the two games series which are most often points of comparison for other games, so statistically, they should be comparable. It's like Bacon numbers. It's math.
 
I beleive rove that another aspec tot take into is the type of game both formulas are. Traditional Zelda is Bassicaly a one and done, once you are finished there’s nothing to do really. In regards to botw there are 100’s of hours of content after the main story to do, and with total expanding on the physics engine with vehicles that 100’s will probably become infinite.
 
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That is some serious rose tinted historical revisionism. Not only do the creators of the series agree, but also sales.
You not minding the lack of evolution is one thing, but to pretend like that wasn't the series' biggest problem is just ridiculous.
 
People just like different things from Zelda and it's ok to prefer certain styles over others. I enjoy the more dense and tighter designed games more. I really, really liked A Link Between Worlds and was hopeful that was what would set the direction for future games. It had both openness in allowing you to complete your objectives in whatever order you pleased while minimizing fluff and wasted space. I don't dislike BotW because it doesn't follow the Ocarina formula, I dislike it because it's so loose and meandering. Vast expanses of empty space inbetween points of interest is not my idea of a good time unless traversal is fun, and it simply is not to me in that game. My other least favorite game in the series, Wind Waker has similar issues but not nearly to the degree that BotW does. Hopefully the vehicles make it fun to get from place to place in TotK.
 


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