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Discussion SpawnWave investigates TotK cartridge size

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it's 32GB

I feel like it's a bit of a waste given most of that won't be used, but it does allow Nintendo to produce a TOTK definitive edition down the road with all the DLCs and patches and possibly not require any downloads on the same cartridge configuration.

SpawnWave points this out, which I also agree with. Having a huge game like this use 32GB is a big net win , as it will likely drive down these cart prices just from economies of scale.
 
More like a necessity. Even if the game is exactly 16GB, it wouldn't fit in a 16GB cart anyway since the way computer count bytes is not 1000 bytes = 1 kilobyte. It's 1024 bytes.

(This is why your SD card/Flash Drive/Hard Drive/SSD shows less space than what was labeled by the way)

As Spawn point out, this did have the benefit of bringing the cost of the cart down. Thus possibly make the 32GB cart more affordable to other publishers.
 
we've known it's a 32GB card since forever. a 16GB card has 14 something GBs of usable storage, so totk wouldn't have fit on a 16GB one. but yeah this is great for dropping the price of 32GB cards for future games, as the only games that had used it before were way smaller sales-wise than what totk will be.
 
Shadow said:
It's strange they use 32GB, and then absolutely wreck the compression on the pre-rendered cutscenes.
Click to expand...
There's that, and also something else I don't understand: why make us download a day one patch when they had plenty of room to include it on the physical medium? I mean, it's not like they rushed the release of the game, they even delayed it to make sure it's polished. So why even a day one patch?

I have the impression that the game was originally intended to fit into a 16GB game cart, and that it changed along the way.
 
boodream said:
There's that, and also something else I don't understand: why make us download a day one patch when they had plenty of room to include it on the physical medium? I mean, it's not like they rushed the release of the game, they even delayed it to make sure it's polished. So why even a day one patch?

I have the impression that the game was originally intended to fit into a 16GB game cart, and that it changed along the way.
Click to expand...
Entirely depends on when the cartridges went into production and the final step of ironing out the game was. Considering they sold over ten million copies (and as far as I'm aware, all physical), I have no doubt the cartridge went into production a while ago already.
 
Joe said:
Kind of a side note, but I don't know why everyone is assuming TotK is absolutely going to have DLC. Just because BotW had it isn't a guarantee that TotK will.
Click to expand...
This is a massive game, Nintendo will want to capitalize on that.
 
32GB cards probably aren't that expensive to manufacture anymore. They've been available to developers since 2017, I would expect the cost of manufacturing to have gone down significantly by now.

In fact, Switch is the only card/cartridge based console ever to not see increased ROM sizes throughout its lifecycle. And that's probably because developers/publishers decided to cheap out and pushed the cost of storage onto consumers through mandatory downloads.

Switch 2 will probably see ROM sizes go from the current spectrum (1-32GB on the current Switch; with 8GB being the average) to 16-128GB (with 32GB becoming the new average).
 
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Joe said:
Kind of a side note, but I don't know why everyone is assuming TotK is absolutely going to have DLC. Just because BotW had it isn't a guarantee that TotK will.
Click to expand...
Unless it’s a second quest type of deal, I agree. Feels very complete as is.
 
Joe said:
Kind of a side note, but I don't know why everyone is assuming TotK is absolutely going to have DLC. Just because BotW had it isn't a guarantee that TotK will.
Click to expand...
Chie said:
This is a massive game, Nintendo will want to capitalize on that.
Click to expand...
Just being a big game isn't a guarantee of anything. Somehow Super Mario Odyssey had no paid DLC

That said, didn't they accidentally reference DLC on the official site at the same time as the price leak before editing it out?
 
boodream said:
There's that, and also something else I don't understand: why make us download a day one patch when they had plenty of room to include it on the physical medium? I mean, it's not like they rushed the release of the game, they even delayed it to make sure it's polished. So why even a day one patch?

I have the impression that the game was originally intended to fit into a 16GB game cart, and that it changed along the way.
Click to expand...
Carts are sitting in warehouses weeks before launch, especially a title as big as this given the sheer number they have to put in production to meet demand. Just because a game has gone gold doesn't mean the work is finished.
 
Given the cart space they have to play with, i can totally see a re-release with everything included down the line. Definately to entice the double dippers and completionists as well.
 
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Dcubed said:
32GB cards probably aren't that expensive to manufacture anymore. They've been available to developers since 2017, I would expect the cost of manufacturing to have gone down significantly by now.

In fact, Switch is the only card/cartridge based console ever to not see increased ROM sizes throughout its lifecycle. And that's probably because developers/publishers decided to cheap out and pushed the cost of storage onto consumers through mandatory downloads.

Switch 2 will probably see ROM sizes go from the current spectrum (1-32GB on the current Switch; with 8GB being the average) to 16-128GB (with 32GB becoming the new average).
Click to expand...
They still aren't cheap. For Nintendo, a 32GB game card would cost in the area of $14 (it's higher for third-party partners).
 
Shadow said:
It's strange they use 32GB, and then absolutely wreck the compression on the pre-rendered cutscenes.
Click to expand...
Nothing strange, if you buy your games digitally on Switch, you want the best optimization. And overall the cutscenes still look good.

boodream said:
it's not like they rushed the release of the game, they even delayed it to make sure it's polished. So why even a day one patch?
Click to expand...
Delay or not, it doesn't change anything about the need for patchs. There are things that can't be made before the gold version (or things they didn't notice, sometimes).
 
Lord Azrael said:
Just being a big game isn't a guarantee of anything. Somehow Super Mario Odyssey had no paid DLC

That said, didn't they accidentally reference DLC on the official site at the same time as the price leak before editing it out?
Click to expand...
Not a good argument when the game your citing is a different series and came out 5 and a half years ago.

Botw got it, as do most big Nintendo games in recent history. Dlc for totk is a lock, not sure why you wouldn't want it.
 
mazi said:
as the only games that had used it before were way smaller sales-wise than what totk will be.
Click to expand...
yep, only like 5 games prior used the 32GB carts. Witcher 3 and the Final Fantasy X/X-2 compilation (only in Japan though, the western release had X-2 as a download code.) were a few notable ones.
and the Japan-only Dragon Quest Heroes 1-2 collection was the first title outright to use them, which is notable as it was a launch title.
also...

part of the issue on why this was a thing, at least in the earlier days. was that there was no native support for storing multiple games on a single cart until a system update later on.

the few games that were doing this prior are collections that store every game in a single application.
 
Excellent. That would make later print runs very easy to have the newest version on the cart.

Maybe I'll wait 1 year before getting this. Will give me plenty of time to beat BotW lol.
 
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Dcubed said:
32GB cards probably aren't that expensive to manufacture anymore. They've been available to developers since 2017, I would expect the cost of manufacturing to have gone down significantly by now.

In fact, Switch is the only card/cartridge based console ever to not see increased ROM sizes throughout its lifecycle. And that's probably because developers/publishers decided to cheap out and pushed the cost of storage onto consumers through mandatory downloads.

Switch 2 will probably see ROM sizes go from the current spectrum (1-32GB on the current Switch; with 8GB being the average) to 16-128GB (with 32GB becoming the new average).
Click to expand...
Without a die shrink, that will not be possible (32GB chips in Game Cards basically consume most of the interior of a Game Card chassis), and Macronix has already delayed a die shrink (allegedly at least twice now).
www.engadget.com

Nintendo is delaying the Switch's 64GB game cards

To get around the Switch's current 32GB limit on game cards, Bethesda spilt Doom into two parts. The campaign is what shipped on the game card, and multiplayer was a separate download. It sounds like that might be the norm for a bit longer. The Wall Street Journal reports that Nintendo won't...
www.engadget.com www.engadget.com
The Wall Street Journal reports that Nintendo won't start supplying 64GB game cards until 2019, around six months later than the original mid-2018 target.
Click to expand...
So they missed a mid-2018 date, then pretty obviously missed 2019. Then COVID and the semiconductor shortage happened.

EDIT: to clarify, the chip takes up most of the depth of the chassis. One could fabricate a 64GB chip that, in theory, fills the entire height of the chassis (removing the small plastic barrier that holds the chip in place), but... that doesn't solve the issue, you'd be paying something close to 2x what you'd pay for a 32GB chip, which is pricey enough that publishers (and Nintendo themselves) trend away from using them when possible. And it does not seem sensible to add the complexity of 3D chip stacking when a die shrink is still viable.
 
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Though it creates the weirdness of a 32GB game card that leaves a vast amount unused, it impresses me that they kept most of the content from BOTW (or altered versions at least), added a bunch more, and ended up with a file size only about 10% bigger.
Terrell said:
Without a die shrink, that will not be possible (32GB chips in Game Cards basically consume most of the interior of a Game Card chassis), and Macronix has already delayed a die shrink (allegedly at least twice now).
Click to expand...
It's almost part of the advertising if they make a game so big they need to ship it in a game card 3 inches tall.
 
Shadow said:
Entirely depends on when the cartridges went into production and the final step of ironing out the game was. Considering they sold over ten million copies (and as far as I'm aware, all physical), I have no doubt the cartridge went into production a while ago already.
Click to expand...
Nintendo's game sales reports are always physical + digital unless stated otherwise. For TotK, we only know it sold over 1 million copies physically in Japan. Either way, it's pretty obvious it was too late for including patches for the cart production. Especially for a big title like this.
 
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Chie said:
Botw got it, as do most big Nintendo games in recent history. Dlc for totk is a lock, not sure why you wouldn't want it.
Click to expand...
Not sure where you got that I don't want it from
Though it's true that I would much rather they move on to the next game
 
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Krvavi Abadas said:
yep, only like 5 games prior used the 32GB carts. Witcher 3 and the Final Fantasy X/X-2 compilation (only in Japan though, the western release had X-2 as a download code.) were a few notable ones.
and the Japan-only Dragon Quest Heroes 1-2 collection was the first title outright to use them, which is notable as it was a launch title.
also...

part of the issue on why this was a thing, at least in the earlier days. was that there was no native support for storing multiple games on a single cart until a system update later on.

the few games that were doing this prior are collections that store every game in a single application.
Click to expand...
A few more than that tbh. Going by community dumps it's:
  1. Attack on Titan 2: Final Battle
  2. Dragon Quest Heroes I & II for Nintendo Switch
  3. Final Fantasy X + X-2 HD Remaster (JP/AS versions only)
  4. Life is Strange: True Colors (JP version only)
  5. SD Gundam G Generation: Cross-Rays
  6. The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom
  7. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt - Complete Edition
  8. Tsukihime: A Piece of Blue Glass Moon
  9. Witch on the Holy Knight
 
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Terrell said:
Without a die shrink, that will not be possible (32GB chips in Game Cards basically consume most of the interior of a Game Card chassis), and Macronix has already delayed a die shrink (allegedly at least twice now).
www.engadget.com

Nintendo is delaying the Switch's 64GB game cards

To get around the Switch's current 32GB limit on game cards, Bethesda spilt Doom into two parts. The campaign is what shipped on the game card, and multiplayer was a separate download. It sounds like that might be the norm for a bit longer. The Wall Street Journal reports that Nintendo won't...
www.engadget.com www.engadget.com

So they missed a mid-2018 date, then pretty obviously missed 2019. Then COVID and the semiconductor shortage happened.

EDIT: to clarify, the chip takes up most of the depth of the chassis. One could fabricate a 64GB chip that, in theory, fills the entire height of the chassis (removing the small plastic barrier that holds the chip in place), but... that doesn't solve the issue, you'd be paying something close to 2x what you'd pay for a 32GB chip, which is pricey enough that publishers (and Nintendo themselves) trend away from using them when possible. And it does not seem sensible to add the complexity of 3D chip stacking when a die shrink is still viable.
Click to expand...

That was prior to the new XtraROM format that Macronix now use.
 
Dcubed said:
That was prior to the new XtraROM format that Macronix now use.
Click to expand...
XtraROM has been used by Nintendo since the 3DS, maybe even DS. It has been used by Switch for Game Cards since launch.

EDIT: And since Macronix is the sole supplier of ROMs for Game Cards, to make them cheaper or permit larger capacities, Macronix will need to fabricate them on a smaller die (they are currently made on anything between a 32-48nm planar process node and can shrink to 28nm before it stops being as cost-effective at the same/similar chip size) or Nintendo will need to find another ROM maker who can offer them something similar enough to be read by the card reader at a smaller process node that Macronix seemingly can't/hasn't delivered.
 
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Shadow said:
Entirely depends on when the cartridges went into production and the final step of ironing out the game was. Considering they sold over ten million copies (and as far as I'm aware, all physical), I have no doubt the cartridge went into production a while ago already.
Click to expand...
JRPGHurtsWallet said:
Carts are sitting in warehouses weeks before launch, especially a title as big as this given the sheer number they have to put in production to meet demand. Just because a game has gone gold doesn't mean the work is finished.
Click to expand...
Donkusei said:
Delay or not, it doesn't change anything about the need for patchs. There are things that can't be made before the gold version (or things they didn't notice, sometimes).
Click to expand...
It's frustrating to buy a game in physical format deliberately to avoid the dematerialized one and not have the whole game on physical support even though there's plenty of space available. This is a bad trend in the industry and until now it was to Nintendo's credit that they did not participate in this trend. Besides, I imagine that the next copies shipped will contain the day one patch directly on the physical support, as it was the case for Breath Of The Wild.

I guess there are a lot of good reasons for that, but it seems to me that it's reasonable and possible not to have to go through a download. They took the time to polish the game, they delayed it, so I'm not happy that the problems that needed patching weren't fixed BEFORE the cartridges were made. I mean, I don't understand why the performance issues fixed by the patch were impossible to identify before the gold version, they were quite obvious.

But I fully admit that I may be missing some things.
 
boodream said:
It's frustrating to buy a game in physical format deliberately to avoid the dematerialized one and not have the whole game on physical support even though there's plenty of space available. This is a bad trend in the industry and until now it was to Nintendo's credit that they did not participate in this trend. Besides, I imagine that the next copies shipped will contain the day one patch directly on the physical support, as it was the case for Breath Of The Wild.

I guess there are a lot of good reasons for that, but it seems to me that it's reasonable and possible not to have to go through a download. They took the time to polish the game, they delayed it, so I'm not happy that the problems that needed patching weren't fixed BEFORE the cartridges were made. I mean, I don't understand why the performance issues fixed by the patch were impossible to identify before the gold version, they were quite obvious.

But I fully admit that I may be missing some things.
Click to expand...

Optimizing is a continuos work, not some random game breaking bug that can be identified and corrected. They wanted to dedicate the most possible time to have the game at the best possible state came launch.
 
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boodream said:
It's frustrating to buy a game in physical format deliberately to avoid the dematerialized one and not have the whole game on physical support even though there's plenty of space available. This is a bad trend in the industry and until now it was to Nintendo's credit that they did not participate in this trend. Besides, I imagine that the next copies shipped will contain the day one patch directly on the physical support, as it was the case for Breath Of The Wild.

I guess there are a lot of good reasons for that, but it seems to me that it's reasonable and possible not to have to go through a download. They took the time to polish the game, they delayed it, so I'm not happy that the problems that needed patching weren't fixed BEFORE the cartridges were made. I mean, I don't understand why the performance issues fixed by the patch were impossible to identify before the gold version, they were quite obvious.

But I fully admit that I may be missing some things.
Click to expand...

Tears of the kingdom isn't the first Nintendo game with a day 1 patch and it won't be the last. The game is entirely playable on the card if you so wish. Heck, if we're being specific BOTW had a day one patch, so this is very much not new.

They obviously knew about the stuff that was later updated; coding isn't magic, you can't just wave your hands and have them be fixed. They took time, and it's 2023, no reasonable company is going to sign off on taking a massive expensive hit because they need to delay printing carts an entire month to have the FPS slightly more stable and miss their release date, completely screw all their advertising they've already paid for and such for that, when they can push it out as a small update.
 
It's entirely understandable that you're bummed that the patch isn't on the cartridge, I'm a bit disappointed by the fact myself as well. There's the upside however that Nintendo (unlike some other pubs) bother including updates in later prints of the cartridges. Still a bit annoyed that New Super Lucky's Tale was said to have the update on the cartridge, just for them to push out another patch and not including it on later prints. It's all a case by case situation and I have no doubt we'll see this happened again eventually.

boodream said:
It's frustrating to buy a game in physical format deliberately to avoid the dematerialized one and not have the whole game on physical support even though there's plenty of space available. This is a bad trend in the industry and until now it was to Nintendo's credit that they did not participate in this trend. Besides, I imagine that the next copies shipped will contain the day one patch directly on the physical support, as it was the case for Breath Of The Wild.

I guess there are a lot of good reasons for that, but it seems to me that it's reasonable and possible not to have to go through a download. They took the time to polish the game, they delayed it, so I'm not happy that the problems that needed patching weren't fixed BEFORE the cartridges were made. I mean, I don't understand why the performance issues fixed by the patch were impossible to identify before the gold version, they were quite obvious.

But I fully admit that I may be missing some things.
Click to expand...
 
Linkstrikesback said:
Tears of the kingdom isn't the first Nintendo game with a day 1 patch and it won't be the last. The game is entirely playable on the card if you so wish. Heck, if we're being specific BOTW had a day one patch, so this is very much not new.

They obviously knew about the stuff that was later updated; coding isn't magic, you can't just wave your hands and have them be fixed. They took time, and it's 2023, no reasonable company is going to sign off on taking a massive expensive hit because they need to delay printing carts an entire month to have the FPS slightly more stable and miss their release date, completely screw all their advertising they've already paid for and such for that, when they can push it out as a small update.
Click to expand...

As you know, I specifically mentioned BOTW in the post you quoted, so I know that. I am absolutely not talking about delaying TOTK again from the announced date, obviously not. I'm talking about taking these improvements into account before announcing the new release date of the game:

Optimizations take time. This is perfectly legitimate. The game has been delayed, for exactly that reason, which is a very good one. So why not delay it enough to not need a day one patch to make the game more stable?
 
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Joe said:
Kind of a side note, but I don't know why everyone is assuming TotK is absolutely going to have DLC. Just because BotW had it isn't a guarantee that TotK will.
Click to expand...
I agree, but I also don’t see any way we don’t at least get Hard/Hero/Master mode or whatever

At the very least a free update. The series has had it since SS? Maybe before I can’t remember
 
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Joe said:
Kind of a side note, but I don't know why everyone is assuming TotK is absolutely going to have DLC. Just because BotW had it isn't a guarantee that TotK will.
Click to expand...
Going beyond just BOTW, it's been much much more common than not for Nintendo's biggest games (either saleswise or in scope) to have it. Super Mario Odyssey being the biggest exception.
 
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Joe said:
Kind of a side note, but I don't know why everyone is assuming TotK is absolutely going to have DLC. Just because BotW had it isn't a guarantee that TotK will.
Click to expand...
Pragmatically very few 1st party Nintendo Switch games haven't gotten either dlc or some kind of substantial update that added content. Even Mario Odyssey got the Luigi's Balloon world mini game added.
 
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fiendcode said:
A few more than that tbh. Going by community dumps it's:
  1. Attack on Titan 2: Final Battle
  2. Dragon Quest Heroes I & II for Nintendo Switch
  3. Final Fantasy X + X-2 HD Remaster (JP/AS versions only)
  4. Life is Strange: True Colors (JP version only)
  5. SD Gundam G Generation: Cross-Rays
  6. The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom
  7. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt - Complete Edition
  8. Tsukihime: A Piece of Blue Glass Moon
  9. Witch on the Holy Knight
Click to expand...

interesting to see Tsukihime and Witch on the Holy Knight there

so few 32 GB games and two of them are visual novels
 
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Funny to think how eight years after its release, Xenoblade X is still the only first-party Nintendo game to clock in at over 20 GB. At this rate, it'll likely take either Xenoblade or Zelda on the Switch 2 to dethrone it.
 
Apopheniac said:
Funny to think how eight years after its release, Xenoblade X is still the only first-party Nintendo game to clock in at over 20 GB. At this rate, it'll likely take either Xenoblade or Zelda on the Switch 2 to dethrone it.
Click to expand...
It's actually more like 19 GB, at least in English (but the Wii U eShop over reported sizes because it needed extra space for installation, so that's probably where the higher number came from). Including DLC (since the English release of Xenoblade X also included the DLC from the Japanese release on the disc), Xenoblade 3 actually isn't very far behind, at 18.7GB.
 
Joe said:
Kind of a side note, but I don't know why everyone is assuming TotK is absolutely going to have DLC. Just because BotW had it isn't a guarantee that TotK will.
Click to expand...
I tend to agree, but I also think there’s no way this game doesn’t eventually end up with a hard mode.

They’ve included one in all of the games since SS, including adding it to remasters.

At the very least, a free update with it.
 
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ILikeFeet said:
And Xenoblade X has a non-zero amount duplicate data because it's a disc game


There are cheaper formats out there but XtraROM has some benefit that Nintendo prefers
Click to expand...
Right, just really thought they would have gotten a lot cheaper by now. IIRC they mentioned to be like $20 a cart some years ago
 
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I think there is a near zero chance the game gets DLC. Has Nintendo even launched a game in the Switch era with DLC where it was not announced before the game launched? I don’t think they have.

I think the Zelda team are all hands on deck for the Switch 2 game as they can’t really afford to launch the next Zelda game when Switch 2 is 5/6 years old.
Joe said:
Kind of a side note, but I don't know why everyone is assuming TotK is absolutely going to have DLC. Just because BotW had it isn't a guarantee that TotK wi
Click to expand...
 
terrornaught said:
I think there is a near zero chance the game gets DLC. Has Nintendo even launched a game in the Switch era with DLC where it was not announced before the game launched? I don’t think they have.

I think the Zelda team are all hands on deck for the Switch 2 game as they can’t really afford to launch the next Zelda game when Switch 2 is 5/6 years old.
Click to expand...

I think people are thinking way too much on a basis of "this hasn't been done so far so it won't happen" or "this has always been the case so it will always keep being this way" - both of which have been disproved again and again by Nintendo just doing whatever. just consider Mario Kart 8 where not only did DLC come out when it had not been announced pre-launch (unless I really misremembered) but they also came up with NEW DLC tracks (and characters, and other updates) after all these years.

Even if the team is working on the next Zelda I am 90% sure we will get DLC for a hugely successful game such as TotK. Consider that they also worked on the SS remake a few years ago while being in the middle of Totk development.
 
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terrornaught said:
I think there is a near zero chance the game gets DLC. Has Nintendo even launched a game in the Switch era with DLC where it was not announced before the game launched? I don’t think they have.
Click to expand...

Yes, plenty of examples. Both pokemon games that got (are getting) DLC. Luigi's mansion 3. Splatoon 2: Octo expansion. Mario kart 8. Animal crossing New horizons. Age of calamitys DLC was announced in February after launching in November.
 
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Terrell said:
XtraROM has been used by Nintendo since the 3DS, maybe even DS. It has been used by Switch for Game Cards since launch.

EDIT: And since Macronix is the sole supplier of ROMs for Game Cards, to make them cheaper or permit larger capacities, Macronix will need to fabricate them on a smaller die (they are currently made on anything between a 32-48nm planar process node and can shrink to 28nm before it stops being as cost-effective at the same/similar chip size) or Nintendo will need to find another ROM maker who can offer them something similar enough to be read by the card reader at a smaller process node that Macronix seemingly can't/hasn't delivered.
Click to expand...
From the gigaleak we found out Nintendo also sources 4GB and 16GB roms from Lapis Semiconductor so MXIC is potentially not the lone supplier. Every teardown I've ever seen has had a MXIC chip though so it's possible that leak info is outdated and Nintendo went with them as a sole supplier in the end. Another thing suggesting rom sourcing was updated is that the MXIC datasheet show 1GB as an option but only 2GB have ever been found in physical Switch games as the smallest capacity, so it's likely Nintendo dropped 1GB as the cost scaling maybe wasn't attractive enough and increasing volumes on 2GB made more sense.
 
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