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Discussion Should the next 3D Zelda be first-person?

Irene

Irene

#TheProcessPrevails
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I've been giving this some thought lately, and several points come to mind.

1. Immersion
2. Self-insertion
3. Breaking conventions
4. Remember when it was on the table?
5. If it worked for...

1. Immersion
Zelda has always been about worlds. When Miyamoto and co. made the first Zelda, one of the first steps was to draw the map, as opposed to the character art. When Mario's and Link's 3D debuts were being developed, the former started everything by having programmers work on his movement abilities, while the latter had everyone focus on the environments and their atmosphere. This focus on worlds has been persistent during the entire history of the series, as Hyrule has seen constant enrichment in terms of functionality, area design and lore over the years. A first-person perspective as a function in a game is not only for convienient use of FPS controls: It's also an incredibly effective way for the player to feel more immersed and connected to the game world than a third-person perspective often does.

2. Self-insertion
Link may have a fixed name nowadays, but he's always been a self-insert. This is your adventure, and especially in previous entries, Link was nothing more than your typical avatar to project yourself onto. A first-person perspective could work wonders for a Zelda game to enhance that feeling of this being your adventure, where there's no spunky guy to distract you from being involved in the feeling of embarking on an adventure that is truly your own.

3. Breaking conventions
Lately, breaking conventions has been on Aonuma's lips. It's what they did in preparation for BotW, to ravenous success. He even used the words when describing the idea to let Zelda have a magic-based gameplay style. While there's a fear that Aonuma saying that open-air is the future might result in a new formula that will just also grow rigid, they might still be hard at work in favour of just coming up with cool new ideas and innovations to make the series remain fresh.

4. Remember when it was on the table?
During the development of Ocarina of Time, Miyamoto actually did experiment with the idea of making the game first-person to, as mentioned, give the main stage to the true star of the game -the world of Hyrule.

5. If it worked for...
Prior to releasing Breath of the Wild, Fujibayashi and Aonuma said that they had played a lot of Skyrim, a a game that seemingly inspired BotW. Skyrim is an open-world game in first-person. One can have a strong opinion on Skyrim's combat, but if there's one company that can ensure engaging gameplay in every possible scenario, it's Nintendo.

Thoughts?
 
Nah. Never in a million years. 3D Zelda combat and puzzles would be jank as hell in 1st person, Link is too marketable to essentially remove him from the game, and it would greatly limit how many casual gamers can play the series. I know 2 of my siblings and my father would have to skip the game because they just can't play first person games. They get motion sickness and just don't understand the controls, and they've been playing Nintendo games their entire lives.
 
I wouldn't be into it, though I've seen people playing BotW/TotK nodded and the Doom conversion of LoZ, so it wouldn't be impossible. It might work better for something styled like the topdown games than the open-air games, if only because the navigation is more straightforward and the manipulation of overworld objects is more limited.
 
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No.

Zelda has always experimented with more complicated swordplay and motion controls, so a VR spinoff focusing on that would be better received. Now, if Nintendo themselves said that they had a bunch of ideas for a first-person Zelda, I wouldn't say no. I'm not a game designer, and Nintendo even seems to surprise other game designers with how creative their games can get, so I wouldn't feel comfortable saying, "Nintendo has no idea what they're doing; the game is going to be bad." I'm not really qualified to make that call, and neither is anyone else here.

I just don't find it particularly likely.
 
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I'd love a new first-person franchise from Nintendo, but nah. I think the Zelda idea is better left in the past.
 
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No.

Let me rephrase that:
FUCK NO.

I've never once felt "more immersed" in a game world because of a first person perspective... If anything, the static dolly-like camera movement of first person games feels far less immersive and believable than a third-person perspective
 
Honestly, I'd be on board with it, and have too thought about it quite a bit. I don't think the next will do it but might start crossing over that threshold a bit by making alot of it an option.

I Remember playing Skyward Sword a little bit this way since you could move while in first person perspective and use the Wiimote to point and move the camera and turn. It was kinda cool to see the world from that point of view for an extended period of time.

As I said I have thought of this quite a bit as well, I'd also couple it with a more grounded, think on your feet, use your enviromental resources to solve puzzles and progress than being an overpowered mage-god being that Link becomes in Tears of the Kingdom.
 
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I think it has the potential to work. Make it 100% optional so it doesn't alienate anyone. I can remember wishing I could admire all the meticulous small details in the indoor environments of BotW/TotK without the obtrusive camera rune HUD.
 
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If this were still in the Ocarina of Time descended games, I think first person Zelda just becomes Metroid Prime. But in the modern, open-air Zelda, it probably has something to offer. I struggle with first person games a lot, so I would be put off by my favorite series going that direction, but I don't think that makes it invalid.

But I personally think that there is plenty of meat on the bones of the current core interaction set. It's hard to imagine the current "traversal is a puzzle" mode standing up to first person. I would struggle plotting a route up a mountain with places to rest and recover stamina if my view were limited to first person. Zelda has only recently added a jump button, and platforming in first person is pretty rough.
 
ProteusRidley said:
I don't want a First Person Zelda but this is so reminiscent of what people were saying when Metroid Prime was announced to be in first person. History repeats itself.
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Valid point. However there is a difference: in the case of Metroid the series also went from 2D to 3D, which was a significant part of peoples' concern, independently of whether it was 1st or 3rd person perspective.
In addition, Metroid does not have a large fanbase so heights and gutter are not that far apart when it comes to sales.
 
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For Me, first person gameplay design is the worst thing ever to happen to the Metroid series, and I would hate it if it happened to LOZ (my all time favourite series). The kind of evil that doesn’t need to be spoken into the Universe. I find all such games bad by default, and if they’re going to do it at all, a third person option should be there. It’s hell on my learning disability, between poor spatial awareness, difficulties with co-ordination, motion sickness and headaches. It isn’t fun at all, and I don’t find it “immersive”.
 
Metroid Prime works in first-person because of how its world is designed, focusing on exploration rather than any sense of groundedness, and the limited interactivity it offers with pointing and shooting comprising the majority of your action set. Zelda has too much breadth in the ways you can experiment with the world around you, and always tries to make it feel tangible. It's not as "gamey" as Metroid.
 
Should it be? There is not really any reason for it to be. Would I care? Not at all. Zelda could totally work in first person and I would gladly play whatever that team came up with. If you had asked whether or not Zelda should be open world prior to Breath of the Wild, most people would have said no as well. People don't like the unfamiliar and are often not imaginative enough to see the potential in ideas until they are shown to them.
 
GenOneCam said:
If you had asked whether or not Zelda should be open world prior to Breath of the Wild, most people would have said no as well.
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This is so true. Everything open-world until then was not my cup of tea and thus I did not have the imagination that/how it could work. And then came Zelda and they absolutely nailed it.
 
No.
Irene said:
1. Immersion
Zelda has always been about worlds. When Miyamoto and co. made the first Zelda, one of the first steps was to draw the map, as opposed to the character art. When Mario's and Link's 3D debuts were being developed, the former started everything by having programmers work on his movement abilities, while the latter had everyone focus on the environments and their atmosphere. This focus on worlds has been persistent during the entire history of the series, as Hyrule has seen constant enrichment in terms of functionality, area design and lore over the years. A first-person perspective as a function in a game is not only for convienient use of FPS controls: It's also an incredibly effective way for the player to feel more immersed and connected to the game world than a third-person perspective often does.

2. Self-insertion
Link may have a fixed name nowadays, but he's always been a self-insert. This is your adventure, and especially in previous entries, Link was nothing more than your typical avatar to project yourself onto. A first-person perspective could work wonders for a Zelda game to enhance that feeling of this being your adventure, where there's no spunky guy to distract you from being involved in the feeling of embarking on an adventure that is truly your own.
Click to expand...
I'm going to be blunt and say these two points are generally horseshit. The first one is a gaming industry truism that is barely backed up by anything resembling facts (plus it reminds me of how David Cage went on and on how his graphical prowess would be great for immersion and then ruined all that talk with his dogshit writing) and the second one hasn't been true since at the very least A Link to the Past - Link is supposed to be a stand-in for you, but like a lot of those characters (including the various Dragon Quest heroes or his counterpart Adol Christin) he's been well developed past that through the addition of family and friendships and while his character is, in broad strokes, the archetype of a "hero", he's never felt like a completely blank slate the way a character built from a character creator did.

Immersion is one of those words that has become a tech industry buzzword (similar to "engaging") where something that is highly subjective is made into something seemingly quantifiable to push for specific types of design and tech.
Irene said:
3. Breaking conventions
Lately, breaking conventions has been on Aonuma's lips. It's what they did in preparation for BotW, to ravenous success. He even used the words when describing the idea to let Zelda have a magic-based gameplay style. While there's a fear that Aonuma saying that open-air is the future might result in a new formula that will just also grow rigid, they might still be hard at work in favour of just coming up with cool new ideas and innovations to make the series remain fresh.
Click to expand...
Would it be really breaking conventions though? Camera perspective changes are just that - a change of camera perspective. When the things you do in front of the camera remain the same, I'd hardly call that "breaking conventions".

And as an aside, I don't really think Breath of the Wild broke conventions as much as it reduced baggage.
Irene said:
5. If it worked for...
Prior to releasing Breath of the Wild, Fujibayashi and Aonuma said that they had played a lot of Skyrim, a a game that seemingly inspired BotW. Skyrim is an open-world game in first-person. One can have a strong opinion on Skyrim's combat, but if there's one company that can ensure engaging gameplay in every possible scenario, it's Nintendo.
Click to expand...
So I've never played Skyrim, and I don't doubt Nintendo could do it... but it's also just a question of "why do it". Never mind that fixed-camera like first-person and over-the-shoulder third person are just... deeply "un-Japanese" design conventions.
Irene said:
4. Remember when it was on the table?
During the development of Ocarina of Time, Miyamoto actually did experiment with the idea of making the game first-person to, as mentioned, give the main stage to the true star of the game -the world of Hyrule.
Click to expand...
Yeah, and I think the world would be a worse place in that timeline. Ocarina of Time's design has had a deep impact on game design that it having been an Ultima Underworld knock-off would've likely not had. No ICO, no Shadow of the Colossus, no Kingdom Hearts, no Devil May Cry, no Bayonetta, no Souls...

GenOneCam said:
If you had asked whether or not Zelda should be open world prior to Breath of the Wild, most people would have said no as well.
Click to expand...
Zelda was always poised to be open world and I remember people talking about it way before Breath of the Wild. Heck, there was speculation about Twilight Princess being an OW game.
Angel Whispers said:
I find all such games bad by default
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I find that to be a bit harsh, and I'm someone who isn't much into first-person games outside of dungeon crawling blobbers either.
 
I don't understand the sentiment of first person perspective not being more immersive. You can still be immersed with a third person perspective, but for games that give you both options it's cleary first person is the more immersive. Games like Red Dead Redemption 2 and GTA V and all feel more immersive in first person. Granted it feels more suited to a slower pace, and things quickly get more difficult when things get more action intensive or high velocity is involved, but those games weren't initially designed to be that way anyway. Skyrim is more designed around it and feels more immersive that way too. Resident Evil 7 is a fucking nightmare especially if you play it either on a large projection screen or VR.

It's all about the execution and the game being designed around it, but first person is simply inherently more immersive than third person. Obviously if Nintendo did this, Zelda would have a different feel and approach than any previous entries to account for the different perspective.
 
Prophet64 said:
I don't understand the sentiment of first person perspective not being more immersive. You can still be immersed with a third person perspective, but for games that give you both options it's cleary first person is the more immersive. Games like Red Dead Redemption 2 and GTA V and all feel more immersive in first person. Granted it feels more suited to a slower pace, and things quickly get more difficult when things get more action intensive or high velocity is involved, but those games weren't initially designed to be that way anyway. Skyrim is more designed around it and feels more immersive that way too. Resident Evil 7 is a fucking nightmare especially if you play it either on a large projection screen or VR.

It's all about the execution and the game being designed around it, but first person is simply inherently more immersive than third person. Obviously if Nintendo did this, Zelda would have a different feel and approach than any previous entries to account for the different perspective.
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First person games give me motion sickness. Not immersive whatsoever.

GenOneCam said:
If you had asked whether or not Zelda should be open world prior to Breath of the Wild, most people would have said no as well.
Click to expand...
I think some of you guys forget what discourse was like for Zelda after Skyward Sword.

ProteusRidley said:
I don't want a First Person Zelda but this is so reminiscent of what people were saying when Metroid Prime was announced to be in first person. History repeats itself.
Click to expand...
The next Zelda game selling like Metroid Prime would kill the series dead.
 
Mekanos said:
First person games give me motion sickness. Not immersive whatsoever.
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Well obviously I don't mean for people that are not able to play them in general. I remember getting motion sickness playing Wolfenstein 3D and Goldeneye OO7 too long for the first few times I played, so I feel for people who have that happen to them everytime. I would expect Nintendo to hopefully make it an option to play it either way.
 
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The principle of first person design has never been a trend or mainstream in Japanese game development, and I don't think they'll be designing any first person until they release a VR version of Zelda.

In addition, Zelda back in the era of Ocarina of Time has already fully equipped with the prototype of the modern 3 d open world, if you go back further, the first generation of the Legend of Zelda and Ultima1 alongside the originator of the open world, botw's original design idea is also "return to the first generation of the Legend of Zelda". It's only because the entire 3d Legend of Zelda in the 10 years after TWW relied strongly on the main flow of the maze paradigm, deviating from the principles of open world design.
 
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Zemya said:
Melee combat in first person just isn't fun imo
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This. I very much love the Elder Scrolls and Fallouts of the world and that with Breath of the Wild the Zelda series took a step in that direction, but simple swordplay has always been a bigger part of Zelda and would be trickier to do well in first person.
Hailinel said:
On the comments regarding Skyrim in first-person...you can play Skyrim in third-person with a quick toggle, but the game is really not well designed for third-person.
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FWIW there are some mods out now that are supposed to greatly improve the third person experience like this one, but I haven't tried them out.
 
1st person is not more immersive by default. Immersion isn’t about approximating reality or seeing things through the direct line of sight of the character. That’s an incredibly binary and amateurish way of looking at things.
 
Honestly, I don't hate the idea outright, I think there's a lot of possibility for interesting things with a first-person perspective. That being said, I don't think I'd like it for the series overall. It feels like it would limit a lot of how I would approach puzzles and combat as a whole.

If they wanted to do some kind of spin-off that was in a first-person perspective, though, I'd probably play it. At least to give it a try.

I do think Link stopped being a stand-in as much as his own character nowadays, but he was definitely intended to be that early on. Maybe they need to make a new nameless guard character to fill this role. Let them get the first-person game. Maybe play up how much harder everything in Hyrule can be if you're not the hero of legend. They won't, but it could be fun.
 
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