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Discussion Numbers Must Be Stopped

ngpdrew

From the Rafters
Moderator
Pronouns
He/Him
You remember that Sears commercial? You know, the one where the guy is so miserable in the summer heat that he proudly declares that he’ll call Sears tomorrow only for his wife to adamantly redirect him to call now? If you don’t, then I’m just going to assume you’re a child person who grew up with a Wii or, God forbid, a Wii U. Feel free to close this tab and return to speculating about whether or not, like, FlingSmash is going to get remastered to launch with the Nintendo Switch 2.

(Don’t really close the tab; I’m an attention-starved monster. Please stay and listen to the old man talk about commercials for a minute.)

If you’re still here, then congratulations on being old enough to be a part of a generation that is doomed to remember commercials the same way other generations might have remembered nifty stamps that were attached to postcards sent by people having more fun than them. The Sears commercial is a kind of communal experience we all endured between reruns of Dexter’s Laboratory and, uh, Aaaaah! Real Monsters(?). There were no ad-free streaming plans, so we just sat there like idle ducklings while capitalism gave us a tongue bath. Some of us grew out of this habit. Some of us let it consume them for a lifetime. I’m here because I’m still drowning in the saliva of big business. I’m still soaking in the acidic bile of corporate scum trying to sell me air conditioning units and Polly Pockets and Light Bright Cubes. I’m sinking, and I’d like to take this opportunity to bring you down with me for just a couple of moments to make a point.

A commercial that has been rattling around in my mind for 16 years is this advertisement courtesy of Pizza Hut:



In case you’re the kind of person who (like me) is reticent to click on video links solicited by strangers on message boards who write overly lengthy essays in an attempt to seem sophisticated while actually being a lowly gremlin, let me describe it for you: A group of seemingly well to do socialites gather at what they believe is a four-dollar-sign caliber restaurant to break bread(sticks). After declaring their appreciation for the cuisine presented to them, the chef emerges from his chef hole to inform his patrons that they are eating Pizza Hut, actually. The people rejoice, and Pizza Hut is declared the champion of affordable gourmet food. The linked video’s description indicates that this was a very real thing that wasn’t at all staged with fast food crisis actors, but we of all people know that this is a false flag operation designed to put Pizza Hut pasta in all of our mouths. We of all people know that when presented with the fact that this otherwise fine eatery had not four Michelin Stars but one half of a half of a quarter of a Michelin Star that shit would hit the fan. Words would not be as minced as the garlic in these pastas. Heads with tiny little chef hats would roll into the streets as a warning to any other fast food establishment attempting to defraud passersby into having a good enough time when they could instead be having a good enough time, but expensive.

People like numbers. People really like numbers that are bigger than other numbers. When people see that the restaurant they’re eating at has more numbers than the restaurant their peers are eating at, they feel like they’re a part of some kind of secret club that lowly small number stans could get into if only they had better, more gargantuan appetites.
Me? I like numbers. Heck, I make my living talking about numbers! I have a favorite number (8, for symmetrical purposes) and a least favorite number (4, because I like the way it looks on my keyboard but my hands are too dumb to render it that way in real life). Sometimes I ruminate on really fun number combinations on license plates.

I don’t have a lot of friends.

Numbers are good, but you know what? Numbers are bad, actually. Numbers were once an additive sprinkled onto the delicacies of life, like cilantro. Now, numbers are an additive sprinkled onto every delicacy of life even when we, the consumers, are begging for the man with the condiments to lay off a little bit (like cilantro?). Numbers are overwhelming our senses and making us incapable of seeing the truth in front of our very eyes: Video games are pretty neat.

Numbers must be stopped.

wOzbxJmpccPA5MYvBSGbor3WKh3.jpg

Not to be confused with Numb3rs, which did stop.


I make a living waxing poetic about numbers to a captive audience of disinterested youths. Every so often, one of the victims of my innumerable numerical ballads will stop me to ask a genuine question: Who invented math? It’s a question that is understandable for a small person to ask, just as it would be for the same small person to ask a dentist who invented the drill that is currently boring its way through their oral cavities. It’s also a question with an answer that is far too long for them to possibly maintain interest, especially given my aforementioned proclivity for agonizingly tedious exposition.

Are you still there?

So, anyways: Who invented math? People invented math, of course! Mathematics has been used for a majority of human existence to help make sense of a world that otherwise doesn’t make much sense at all. Its application is informed by reality! Or, at least, it was. The roles have reversed; instead of taking cues from reality, reality has begun taking cues from math.

Working in education, I’m often victimized by numbers. These numbers are ostensibly designed to measure things like student growth and aptitude. But do they? I don’t think so! I think these numbers have replaced valuable, qualitative data with something a lot easier to put on a chart and display proudly (or disappointingly) to a bunch of clueless suits who have been foolishly entrusted with guiding the decision making of the institution in which I toil. These numbers are the ultimate rhetorical shortcut, one which can be implemented at any given moment to replace nuance with a routine inequality.

Alright, I’ll talk about video games.

Pennys-Big-Breakaway-yo-yo.jpg

Me when someone complains about games that run below an "acceptable" frame-rate.


Enthusiasts in this industry have become wholly dependent on numbers to have even the most pedestrian of conversations. An inquiring soul might ask a simple question, like “Did you play Penny’s Big Breakaway, the latest game from the fine folks who you might remember from such genre-defining classics as Sonic Mania?” In a more decent society, you might expect replies about the mechanics or the level design or the merits of the humble yo-yo. In this quantitative hellscape, the answers to that innocent inquiry will probably fixate on the fact that the game runs at 30 frames per second when it should instead run at 60 frames per second. Someone might mention a number indicating the resolution of the game and then indicate that that number would be a lot better if it were also bigger. An especially statistically-savvy type of individual might chime in to say that the game is selling small numbers, implicitly suggesting that only games that sell bigger numbers are of sufficient merit for discussion. At some point, the conversation will get so heady that you might be tempted to fiddle with an abacus just to keep your head above water. But you can’t! You will drown in these numbers, and when you’re done drowning in these numbers you’ll wander to another nearby water cooler to drink enough numbers to kill God.

Who needs God, anyways? Numbers are the new God.

I’m loath to reference South Park, but it seems appropriate to do so here: In the twelfth episode of the tenth season of Comedy Central’s longest-running FCC fine accumulator, Eric Cartman really wants a Nintendo Wii. The only problem is that it isn’t out yet! To solve this dilemma, Mr. Cartman freezes himself until such a time when the Nintendo Wii is readily available. He overshoots the mark a bit and finds himself in a nightmarish future where what’s left of humanity is at war with sea otters. Also, everyone worships science. Literally! They say things like “science damn you” instead of “God damn you.” Hilarious!

1200px-Wii-Console.png

Yes, I do hate the 1 and 2 buttons!

In some ways, this is our present. For one, the Nintendo Wii is readily available! I could play one right now. I could even emulate one! It’s wild. For two, science (and, by extension, math) are kind of like a religion. And I don’t mean good science and good math! I mean the bad kind! I mean the kind that your coworker uses to justify why they eat three pieces of bark and a dollop of pine tar for every meal, or why they keep blasting Essential Oils in your face whenever you appear to have even the most minor of ailments. I mean the kind of math that leads people to think that it makes sense every time their football team goes for it on fourth down, or the kind that makes the worst people you know buy and trade imaginary quantities in the hope of making the most money.

I mean the kind of math that has made it impossible to have a good conversation about, well, anything. But especially video games!

I understand the inclination to quantify enjoyment. I do! But, at the same time, I don't! How can numbers possibly be used to represent the immense number of feelings I have about THE Final Fantasy VII Remake Trilogy? What integer could hope to signify my lifelong attachment to a mustachioed plumber, a tie-wearing gorilla, and a musically-inclined boy with pointy ears who also happens to be the most important person in the entire world? I assure you no number big or small can explain why I feel strongly enough to write this call to action about video game discourse on Famiboards dot com.

I pine for a simpler time. I long for a time in which people can have serious discussions about this industry without also making a line graph to quantify the relative value of a piece of software. I yearn for a time in which people might once again play games that maybe don’t run super smoothly but do have something interesting to say, be it from a mechanical perspective or something more narratively impactful. I pray for a time when conversations about art don’t feel like a pissing contest about which developers are the most prolific at compiling the biggest numbers.

To put it more simply: I want the people to legitimately enjoy the Pizza Hut pasta. I want the chef to keep his head. I want the patrons to go home and happily discuss the grease sponge they foisted upon their digestive system. I want the man to say “I like it even more now”, and I want him to mean it.

I genuinely get the point of more technical discussions, and I even seek them out from time to time! I also feel like they're supplanting normal discourse in a way that makes it frustrating to discuss my favorite past time on the Internet. If you're reading this, Jon Linneman, I love you! Please don't hate me.
 
If I had 3 wishes my first wish would be to erase numbers from

of course, this would leave my unable to count how many wishes I had remaining, but I’d do it to defeat the great evil that is numbers 🫡
 
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At the beginning I thought this was a thread about commercials that sing phone numbers at you and how they must be stopped, and like, I'm on board with the actual thesis, but I'm kind of more passionate about where I thought this was going?
 
That numbers aren't everything doesn't mean they must be stopped. It's not a choice between 1 and 0.

Over the years I've found numbers increasingly useful over the years as a simple matter of shared objective reality. You can love Wii U, you can hate Wii U, it's all subjective. But we can all agree it shipped 13.56 million hardware units.
I pine for a simpler time. I long for a time in which people can have serious discussions about this industry without also making a line graph to quantify the relative value of a piece of software.
Was that a thing? I've been around for the majority of the time the video game industry has been a thing and readily remember 8-bit vs 16-bit or what a big deal it was to have a 16 megabit game or blablabla, and I don't think the years that preceded me were much different.
 
Another banger thread from Neo Geo Pocket Drew (no way that’s what it stands for).

I thought this was going to be about commercials. 🤦‍♀️ I do remember the Sears commercial and to further show my age, the Pizza Hut commercial reminded me of this SNL skit where Chris Farley finds out he’s on a hidden camera commercial.



I yearn for a time in which people might once again play games that maybe don’t run super smoothly but do have something interesting to say, be it from a mechanical perspective or something more narratively impactful.
I have a long-gone 8-bit system arriving any day now. I imagine most of its games don’t run super smoothly. No idea if they have anything especially interesting to say though. I’ll let y’all know how it goes.

In the meantime, is there a game (besides maybe Penny’s Big Breakaway) that fits this mold that you’d like everyone to discuss?
 
I've been having some thoughts about numbers recently, to the point of this thread feeling a bit uncanny. It's so easy for a human being to focus on a number and start optimizing it, and forget what the actual thing behind them is, as if the numbers had some intrinsic value. But they do not!
 
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I like it when numbers are used for stuff that makes sense to quantify e.g. framerate. I don't consider 60 fps a must-have for every game I play, but it's nice to know when a game is hitting that buttery smooth number of frames per second.

I don't like it when numbers are used as substitutes for what should be qualitative assessments. I've always hated the idea of review scores, because telling me a game is "10/10" does nothing for me.
 
There is a problematic focus on numbers, but I really do think that hitting certain thresholds does benefit gameplay experiences. Sure, we used to enjoy 240p games that ran at 10-15 fps, but we all clamor for better resolutions and smoother framerates because it’s been such a game changer. It feels weird and bad to go back to that type of experience.

Generally tho, I agree. I would love for us to not focus on numbers…because hardware has reached the point where games are stable and visually very clean. Imagine a situation where hardware isn’t there to be pushed to its limits; It’s there to fit your game into, and not as a resource to maximize. Sounds great. Probably will never happen.
 
I agree with this thread. If I’m enjoying a game / experience / whatever that matters most to me rather trying to pin down its quality to a number, worrying if it’s popular or not, or in a game’s case worrying about performance numbers. For the latter, can numbers help? Sure! When I have options in front of me, like Penny in the OP being on different platforms, I’ll choose the one with the bigger numbers attached since as a platformer / action game I’ll take the one that runs smoothest. If it’s a turn based RPG, perhaps not! Portability, the controller I want to play with, and the presence or lack of achievements (and sometimes it is the latter for me) are factors that help me make my decision that have nothing to do with numbers. If the game is just the game though on a single platform or multiple ones, my interest in numbers dips considerably.

Also you mentioned the Sears commercial, so I immediately had to watch and share the ProZD versions lol.

 
Numbers are the enemy.
 
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Respectfully, I disagree. As a child person who grew up with the Wii, I think there's a difference in how people talk about games, but i'm not sure it's a negative difference. We have a lot more knowledge now, and maybe we can discern good and bad technical traits more, but replace "low framerate" with "lag" and you can still find a lot of similar complaints in older games. We just constantly have access to information telling us what's good or bad about the thing we do or don't like, which is really a problem with the internet in general. Review scores have also been a thing since forever, even the modern internet review format was basically a thing already by the mid 90's (Gaming in the Clinton Years, anyone?).

I do think framerate and resolution get a lot of undeserved hate in discussions too, they're a tool to quantify things just like anything else and it's how you use them that makes the discussion good or bad, I often find that people who are adamantly against using them at all in discussions more obnoxious to be honest, with behavior that's often akin to a child sticking their fingers in their ears while simultaneously questioning why people have preferences, all while not allowing them to explain. I actually get very annoyed when people equate framerate to "graphics" and try to minimize that as if it is something unimportant to the game experience, and I think a lot of people miss how important visual clarity is in games which can absolutely be affected by AA / resolution. If the purpose of this thread was to say that people should allow themselves to enjoy things despite flaws, then yeah I agree, but I'm not sure that's really engaging with the numbers crowd on any meaningful level, it's kind of a non-sequitur.
 
Numbers are like the only truly objective thing in the world and you tell me you need them to express your feelings (on a piece of media)? Lazy and boring, if a 7/10 means different things to different people why not just use words? Because a 7/10 actually always means 7/10.

That being said, while being too obsessed with them can harm the enjoyment of playing, framerate, resolution and any number that just IS a number is GOOD. Sorry.
 
Another banger thread from Neo Geo Pocket Drew (no way that’s what it stands for).

I thought this was going to be about commercials. 🤦‍♀️ I do remember the Sears commercial and to further show my age, the Pizza Hut commercial reminded me of this SNL skit where Chris Farley finds out he’s on a hidden camera commercial.




I have a long-gone 8-bit system arriving any day now. I imagine most of its games don’t run super smoothly. No idea if they have anything especially interesting to say though. I’ll let y’all know how it goes.

In the meantime, is there a game (besides maybe Penny’s Big Breakaway) that fits this mold that you’d like everyone to discuss?

I love that sketch. The chef popping out for a split second gets me every time
Fet2gTT.png

Also pictured: NUMBERS
 
You remember that Sears commercial? You know, the one where the guy is so miserable in the summer heat that he proudly declares that he’ll call Sears tomorrow only for his wife to adamantly redirect him to call now? If you don’t, then I’m just going to assume you’re a child person who grew up with a Wii or, God forbid, a Wii U. Feel free to close this tab and return to speculating about whether or not, like, FlingSmash is going to get remastered to launch with the Nintendo Switch 2.
As a non-American, what the hell is a Sears?
 
The issue with numbers is that they tell only half of the story.

Xenoblade 3 objectively speaking runs at 540p, but it looks surprisingly crisp
Super Mario 64 runs at 30 fps, but controls are tight as hell
Switch has a 720p screen, Steam Deck has a 800p screen, and games looks amazing on them.

The thing with games is that they can be optimized to run with those numbers. We're in the era of DLSS, Xess and FSR, IA scaling techniques that make rendering resolution virtually meaningless, and i've never heard a greater fallacy than anything below 60 fps is unplayable, because Nintendo proved that wrong in the wake of the 3D console era.

We get lots of valuable information, but half of the time said information is either incomplete or used to set a narrative, and instead of being used merely for what it is, it's instantly weaponized in the console wars.

In DFRetro's last video regarding Nightdive's amazing Dark Forces' remaster, it made me rise an eyebrow how the Switch's version framerate issues were presented, waiting to the end to say that they were already solved and a patch was in the way. I guess it wasn't John's intention - he gets nothing from it and he's always been pretty neutral at least with Nightdive's remasters on Switch - but if someone cropped that into a clip it could be easily used to argue that the Switch wasn't even able to run the remasters of a DOS game. Again, i think it's unintended, but damaging nonetheless. Some times, i wonder if DF and similar media sites realize the power those numbers have.
 
As a non-American, what the hell is a Sears?
It's a tower in Chicago, Illinois, USA, with a fancy glass deck you can stand on to trigger your fear of heights, most famous for being the site where the illuminati were serendiptiously captured on film in cinema classic Ferris Bueller's Day Off and also for the mind-boggling spelling change to "Willis," which is somehow pronounced exactly the same.
 
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This resonates with me big time. I used to be a big framerate snob, and I do still take note of it, but largely setting it aside in preference of having the experience feels much healthier. I could play a lot more games on PS5, but I’d rather play handheld and follow my cat around the house, ya’know?
 
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Personally, review scores are a complete mess. So how do we fix it.

I honestly think aggregates are the problem and should stop being treated seriously. That's pretty much it.

The individual views of reviewers are important. You can find like-minded people or honest critics who can share similar views towards a piece of media you enjoy. The problem is that Metacritic is infested with a bunch of very bias and "in for the money" reviewers that have flawed views that heavily weight the views of the media for better or for worse. The amount of games that get excellent reviews but have poor critical reception after the fact is unbelievable.

Find someone you like, find a site you share views with or find reputable and stick with them. You might not agree with them on everything, but you'll agree with them more than the views of the many.

Schaffrillias Productions actually made an excellent point about number scores during his Barbie and Oppenheimer video review about this, saying that it's hard and more often unfair to compare the efforts and ambition of two very different works of fiction, to the point where he actually considered stopping himself from using them because it forces people to listen to what they're saying instead of looking at an arbitrary number that doesn't reflect the ambition or success of the work itself. Listen to what the reviewer is saying. Their 9/10 might not reflect what you think a 9/10 should be.
 
01001110 01110101 01101101 01100010 01100101 01110010 01110011 00100000 01100001 01110010 01100101 00100000 01100111 01101111 01101111 01100100
 
That numbers aren't everything doesn't mean they must be stopped. It's not a choice between 1 and 0.

Over the years I've found numbers increasingly useful over the years as a simple matter of shared objective reality. You can love Wii U, you can hate Wii U, it's all subjective. But we can all agree it shipped 13.56 million hardware units.
Absolutely! I just think they are too often used as a rhetorical shortcut to avoid more nuanced discussion.
Respectfully, I disagree. As a child person who grew up with the Wii, I think there's a difference in how people talk about games, but i'm not sure it's a negative difference. We have a lot more knowledge now, and maybe we can discern good and bad technical traits more, but replace "low framerate" with "lag" and you can still find a lot of similar complaints in older games. We just constantly have access to information telling us what's good or bad about the thing we do or don't like, which is really a problem with the internet in general. Review scores have also been a thing since forever, even the modern internet review format was basically a thing already by the mid 90's (Gaming in the Clinton Years, anyone?).

I do think framerate and resolution get a lot of undeserved hate in discussions too, they're a tool to quantify things just like anything else and it's how you use them that makes the discussion good or bad, I often find that people who are adamantly against using them at all in discussions more obnoxious to be honest, with behavior that's often akin to a child sticking their fingers in their ears while simultaneously questioning why people have preferences, all while not allowing them to explain. I actually get very annoyed when people equate framerate to "graphics" and try to minimize that as if it is something unimportant to the game experience, and I think a lot of people miss how important visual clarity is in games which can absolutely be affected by AA / resolution. If the purpose of this thread was to say that people should allow themselves to enjoy things despite flaws, then yeah I agree, but I'm not sure that's really engaging with the numbers crowd on any meaningful level, it's kind of a non-sequitur.
Like any number, technical specs can be used for good and ill. DF does great work putting those specs into context and then people recite those numbers without context to overwhelm discourse.
Numbers are like the only truly objective thing in the world and you tell me you need them to express your feelings (on a piece of media)? Lazy and boring, if a 7/10 means different things to different people why not just use words? Because a 7/10 actually always means 7/10.

That being said, while being too obsessed with them can harm the enjoyment of playing, framerate, resolution and any number that just IS a number is GOOD. Sorry.
Apology not accepted! Those numbers are fine until they're weaponized by people I don't like!
OP your thread is another scorcher, did you call Sears?
They aren't picking up...
01001110 01110101 01101101 01100010 01100101 01110010 01110011 00100000 01100001 01110010 01100101 00100000 01100111 01101111 01101111 01100100
You (red) monster!
 
Subjective opinions and discussions can be just as insufferable really, like you really think it's healthy to be having discussions about how Kirby and the Rainbow Curse is uninspired? Makes me much madder and more disillusioned with "the discourse" than people who are super concerned about resolution and framerate and metacritic, at least those who are dead focused on objective metrics can be more objectively ignored lol
 
Subjective opinions and discussions can be just as insufferable really, like you really think it's healthy to be having discussions about how Kirby and the Rainbow Curse is uninspired? Makes me much madder and more disillusioned with "the discourse" than people who are super concerned about resolution and framerate and metacritic, at least those who are dead focused on objective metrics can be more objectively ignored lol
Fwiw, as a midwesterner I disagree with the comment calling for less passive aggressive horseshit. Good post!
 
People quoting numbers will always remind me of this scene from the best Fast and Furious movie:

 
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Subjective opinions and discussions can be just as insufferable really, like you really think it's healthy to be having discussions about how Kirby and the Rainbow Curse is uninspired? Makes me much madder and more disillusioned with "the discourse" than people who are super concerned about resolution and framerate and metacritic, at least those who are dead focused on objective metrics can be more objectively ignored lol
I want you to know that going back to this old post has me playing Kirby & the Rainbow Curse right now
 
Personally, review scores are a complete mess. So how do we fix it.
By not assigning review scores.

Attempting to encapsulate an entire review into a number or letter ultimately devalues the review because it encourages people not to read it which is like the opposite point of going through the trouble of organizing one’s thoughts and writing them down. The content of the review is what’s important seems to be the endgame of your point about aggregates. And I’m not familiar with Schaffrillias Productions, but it sounded like they stopped just short of nixing review scores entirely. So close.

IMG-1696.gif


Anecdotally, I have a pretty good handle on things I’ll enjoy so I just buy games now. Occasionally, I’ll read some reviews from outlets I trust, mostly to see if my views aligned or if there was something I didn’t notice. Still, I stopped paying attention to any number or letter score over 20 years ago. In an old EGM, (I think) Dan Hsu explained a “10” didn’t mean a game is perfect, and that resonated with me. Due to the nature of video games and how, for example, parts of them are held together with duct tape and popsicle sticks in the backend, no game can be perfect. Could you look past its flaws though? Did it resonate with you in a way that other media hadn’t? Why? Was it life-changing? How? These questions can’t be answered with a number or letter grade.

While I understand the purpose of number/letter grades and that they aren’t going anywhere, I choose to ignore them. They don’t provide enough information to be useful. And not for nothing, decimal review scores are especially unhelpful despite the veneer of a more precise score.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
 
So this entire comment is excellent and I agree with all of it, but there's a specific part I want to point to and be happy with:
Still, I stopped paying attention to any number or letter score over 20 years ago. In an old EGM, (I think) Dan Hsu explained a “10” didn’t mean a game is perfect, and that resonated with me
michael-scott-the-office.gif

This. 11/10 agreed. There is no such thing as a perfect piece of media otherwise we'd have world peace, so a 10/10 represents a work of fiction that you resonate or deeply enjoy despite its issues. Persona 3 is not a perfect game, but I cannot think of a piece of media i've resonated more with, hence why I'd give it a 10/10 above anything else. Same applies with The Worlds End, A Silent Voice, Xenoblade 1 and 3, Dishonored 1, so many pieces of fiction I adore.

Reviews are best described by the enjoyment that one person can get out of it. A paragraph of one person's enjoyment means more than the numbers that designates their overall feelings.
 
Not a chance I can get through that wall of text I'm afraid.
Tl;dr: Numbers bad.

Thanks for clicking!

And @Catsylvania, I love your comments. Sorry I never responded! There isn't really a specific game I want to talk about. As a fan of numbers used properly, I'm just disappointed they've been weaponized in such a way that it makes having subjective discussions a little more difficult than it should be.
 


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