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Retro in a major loss for people claiming the game is "too long", someone just 101% completed Donkey Kong 64 in under 4 hours.

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Krvavi Abadas

Krvavi Abadas

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*as a tool-assisted speedrun that is
yes, you read the thread title correctly. remember that this is the same game that IGN once called "Rare's War and Peace". and claimed it takes "approximately two life-times to beat."
there's supposed to be detailed commentary explaining how the runner managed to get through the game so quickly, but the audio recording needs to be repaired first.

as a reminder. you only need half of the game's Golden Bananas, 15 Banana Medals (5 of which are automatically gained through progression of the last level), four Battle Crowns, and two Rare/Nintendo Coins to finish it normally. with a mistakenly left in test feature shrinking the GB requirement to just 80 of them.
 
Wow that's impressive. Although so much of the time spent in DK64 is backtracking and finding out you need to be a different Kong and then going back to switch and so on that if you knew exactly when, where, and how much to do between each switch I imagine that it cuts the time down a ton
 
SammyJ9 said:
Wow that's impressive. Although so much of the time spent in DK64 is backtracking and finding out you need to be a different Kong and then going back to switch and so on that if you knew exactly when, where, and how much to do between each switch I imagine that it cuts the time down a ton
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Knowing definitely makes a big difference. My very first playthrough was close to 40hours to 101%. Second playthrough was sub-30. Third I had cut it all the way down to around 20.
 
What happens in that video can hardly be described as "playing" Donkey Kong 64 as intended. It's more like deconstructing Donkey Kong 64.
 
Joe said:
What happens in that video can hardly be described as "playing" Donkey Kong 64 as intended. It's more like deconstructing Donkey Kong 64.
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Yeah that video is just ridiculous to watch, good Luck even attempting to do similar to that without 100s of hours, or a bot.
 
I feel like Donkey Kong 64 is infamous for its density moreso than sheer length exactly. Maybe for its time it was kind of long? But nowadays it's hardly special in that department, games being offensively long is basically celebrated. The only reason DK64's, uh, girth, is still notable is that it takes the collectathon gameplay loop of "collect things to open things to collect more things" so far into absurdity that it starts to resemble a grindy mobile game with more currencies than its AI-generated art has fingers, in a time before horse armor was a twinkle in Bethesda's eye. And as far as I'm aware, no other platformer to this day, whether it's a giant modernized bloatfest or an actual mobile game, has yet come close to surpassing it at that.

SammyJ9 said:
Wow that's impressive. Although so much of the time spent in DK64 is backtracking and finding out you need to be a different Kong and then going back to switch and so on that if you knew exactly when, where, and how much to do between each switch I imagine that it cuts the time down a ton
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...And this is also silly because yeah, if you aren't constantly going back and switching characters, the number one thing people complain about to this day with this game, it makes the game go a hell of a lot faster. You don't necessarily need to have foreknowledge of the levels, but it requires you to go over the whole thing and remember all the things you passed and then plan who to switch to next to cut down on unneeded trips, and most people clearly do not naturally approach it like that.

Not to mention that this is a TAS of Donkey Kong 64. I haven't watched it, but I can guarantee that what this run consists of will include very little of what would be recognizable as "playing Donkey Kong 64". This is a game where you can clip through walls at will by throwing some oranges to create lag, or swim through the ground if you just keep trying for a few seconds. The shit that is possible beyond human limitations is going to be downright stupid.
 
I think Donkey Kong 64 is legitimately great and fun as long as you aren't going for 100%. Especially from Creepy Castle to the end. What an incredibly perfect send off for the Kremlings.
 
So, according to OP, I can say that Dark Souls is easy because some people can beat it without getting hit?
 
Honestly I loved the length of it as a kid and wouldn’t have a problem with it today either once it eventually lands on NSO. I can’t speak for everyone else, but back then I was getting one, maybe, two games a year. DK64 was my Christmas game in ‘99 and I played it multiple times back-to-back before going back to an older game or having some rentals at the video store.

Is there a lot to collect? Of course. But you need to treat it more as each Kong kind of going through their own individual campaign across the game’s eight worlds. As pointed out above, there really isn’t a need to be constantly swapping back-and-forth between Kongs, with the exception of the times when some Kong team work is needed to progress or a specific Kong may be needed to enter an area and then you swap once inside.

And on top of all that, in this gaming world full of constant open-world games, DK64 is just incredible small in comparison nowadays. It’s barely a blimp on the radar now.
 
Stilt Village said:
I feel like Donkey Kong 64 is infamous for its density moreso than sheer length exactly. Maybe for its time it was kind of long? But nowadays it's hardly special in that department, games being offensively long is basically celebrated. The only reason DK64's, uh, girth, is still notable is that it takes the collectathon gameplay loop of "collect things to open things to collect more things" so far into absurdity that it starts to resemble a grindy mobile game with more currencies than its AI-generated art has fingers, in a time before horse armor was a twinkle in Bethesda's eye. And as far as I'm aware, no other platformer to this day, whether it's a giant modernized bloatfest or an actual mobile game, has yet come close to surpassing it at that.


...And this is also silly because yeah, if you aren't constantly going back and switching characters, the number one thing people complain about to this day with this game, it makes the game go a hell of a lot faster. You don't necessarily need to have foreknowledge of the levels, but it requires you to go over the whole thing and remember all the things you passed and then plan who to switch to next to cut down on unneeded trips, and most people clearly do not naturally approach it like that.

Not to mention that this is a TAS of Donkey Kong 64. I haven't watched it, but I can guarantee that what this run consists of will include very little of what would be recognizable as "playing Donkey Kong 64". This is a game where you can clip through walls at will by throwing some oranges to create lag, or swim through the ground if you just keep trying for a few seconds. The shit that is possible beyond human limitations is going to be downright stupid.
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Also, I should point out that this is still actually really long for the genre, despite the massive time save from it being a TAS. Banjo-Kazooie 100%, by a human, is a speedrun that's half the length (and the TAS only shaves off a few minutes). Banjo-Tooie 100% doesn't have a TAS, but the human record is still an hour shorter than the human record for DK64.
 
I think I stopped being amazed by speedrun times when I saw that speedrunners who've memorised every jump can get through the original NES Castlevania in 12 minutes.
 
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Decoyman said:
I think people just gaslit themselves into thinking this game took twenty DMV trips worth of hours to beat because fuck having to beat the DK Arcade cabinet twice
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At least this can be done easier using save states on Wii U. But they don't help with atrocities like Beaver Bother.

Imo DK64 would one of my favourite games if it didn't have 6-7 really bad banana challenges.

I'm afraid even if Nintendo would ever bother to remater it, they wouldn't bother enough to rebalance those sections.
 
The length is fine if not going for 100%

I thing a standard play through is 20-30 hours, not speedrun. That pretty average for games, on the high end for platformersy, on the far low for RPGs.

100% is a chore.

The 2 big problems are a lot of unnecessary backtracking situations (Kong swap) and some forced bullshit minigames. (And I'm fine with the arcade stuff, but for it to be needed is stupid since they are komplett different gameplay)
 
Aether said:
The length is fine if not going for 100%

I thing a standard play through is 20-30 hours, not speedrun. That pretty average for games, on the high end for platformersy, on the far low for RPGs.

100% is a chore.

The 2 big problems are a lot of unnecessary backtracking situations (Kong swap) and some forced bullshit minigames. (And I'm fine with the arcade stuff, but for it to be needed is stupid since they are komplett different gameplay)
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I think that sounds about right for game lengths today. But on release in 1999, 30 hours was about average for RPGs (How Long to Beat puts Chrono Trigger at 23 and FFVII at 38). 20-30 hours for a standard playthrough was incredibly long even for 3D platformers then, Mario 64 is about 12, Castlevania 64 about 8, etc etc.
 
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Holy shit! It takes a TAS to just barely squeak in at under 4 hours?

That's bananas!

No way would I ever attempt 100% in this game!
 
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Darknut85 said:
That shows how tedious and long it‘s again, since Botw, a game praised to be an expansive open air experience, can be beaten in just 24 minutes.
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Well you can also just go straight to the boss in a normal run in under 4, hours without doing glitches.
Also... To 100% botw is much much longer
 
PixelKnight said:
I think that sounds about right for game lengths today. But on release in 1999, 30 hours was about average for RPGs (How Long to Beat puts Chrono Trigger at 23 and FFVII at 38). 20-30 hours for a standard playthrough was incredibly long even for 3D platformers then, Mario 64 is about 12, Castlevania 64 about 8, etc etc.
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Oh i think hltb is understatimg FFvii a little (it never was a 100+ hour game like promo material claimed, but I thing without the web back then the real time was more in the 40ties, more chance to overlook something and get stuck compared to platformers), and we had longer RPGs RPGs. ( https://gamerant.com/longest-ps1-rpgs-by-play-time )

It for sure was long by back then standards, but especially platformers, but just a handful years later 20-30 was the standard for pretty much all AAA games, and there are much worse offenders of being bloated.

Maybe it's that people don't want platformers to take that long. Then DK would be an offender, but I don't see that sentiment from people.

Btw, I would probably give DK64 a 7/10.
Good movement, art, music, a lot of character. Kong's are fun to use and there is a lot of variety, but not all of it is polished, to much repeats, level design could be tighter and the arcade part should have been a bonus, not mandatory.
So it's not like I'm a huge fan.
 
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SammyJ9 said:
Wow that's impressive. Although so much of the time spent in DK64 is backtracking and finding out you need to be a different Kong and then going back to switch and so on that if you knew exactly when, where, and how much to do between each switch I imagine that it cuts the time down a ton
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This is why the "switch Kong anywhere" romhack is the best way to play.
 
tender said:
We NEED to go back to 16-bit all-killer no-filler 20-25 hours JRPGs.
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Oh for jrpgs for sure. PS FFS where the peak in length for me, between 25 and 35 is the sweet Spot for me. Manageable, not filled with micromanaging and unimportant side plots, a steady pace of progression. SMT5 was a 80h game that could have been 40-50 with a story for just 10
 
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Can't wait for this game to be added to NSO eventually. I legitimately love it even though I understand the criticism and even agree to some degree. I didn't know about this TAS, thanks for sharing!
 
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Decoyman said:
I think people just gaslit themselves into thinking this game took twenty DMV trips worth of hours to beat because fuck having to beat the DK Arcade cabinet twice
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With only 1 life.

Only 1 life.

Each time.

Only 1 life.

And the second time is on New Game+ difficulty, but only 1 life.

Only 1 life.


But other than, it's pretty awesome. I will defend this game to the ...

Rampo360 said:
atrocities like Beaver Bother.
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... OK never mind.

Also that mechanical guppy!
 
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Aether said:
The length is fine if not going for 100%

I thing a standard play through is 20-30 hours, not speedrun. That pretty average for games, on the high end for platformersy, on the far low for RPGs.

100% is a chore.

The 2 big problems are a lot of unnecessary backtracking situations (Kong swap) and some forced bullshit minigames. (And I'm fine with the arcade stuff, but for it to be needed is stupid since they are komplett different gameplay)
Click to expand...
A remake that lets you switch kongs on the fly and gives you the option to skip mini games after like 3 failures would really help with the poor pacing in dk64. Kind of like how rare improved the Xbox version of banjo kazooie by having you keep your notes if you died or left a level.
 
Beanstar40 said:
A remake that lets you switch kongs on the fly and gives you the option to skip mini games after like 3 failures would really help with the poor pacing in dk64. Kind of like how rare improved the Xbox version of banjo kazooie by having you keep your notes if you died or left a level.
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No need to skip just relax some challenges:
  • mechanical fish: add 5-10 seconds to the countdown
  • beaver bother: add 10 seconds to the countdown
  • dk arcade: add lives or remove it or have you beat the first level the first time and the second level the second time
  • ice maze: spikes should do 1/4 melon damage and not a full one
Those are the most annoying I remember (also turtle race and diddy jet packs could use some tweaking, though the jet pack was mostly due to camera issues)

As for changing kong on the fly I think it would break some of the design, maybe they could do it but add a big cool down. I'd probably just add more barrels, basically fill the levels with many of them in the areas that are approachable by anyone.
 
BassForever said:
This is why the "switch Kong anywhere" romhack is the best way to play.
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I’ve thought about this often and think it would just be a wee bit aggravating to be honest. Each Kong has their own 100 colored bananas to represent them in each world that often directs towards an objective of collecting a Golden Banana. The idea is—as that each Kong should be treated as having their own individual campaign in each world. And on occasion, they’ll need the help of the other Kongs.

Sure, it can be a bit tedious at times, but it works within the design of the game.
 
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Runner commentary
  • Index


    • for those wondering about the tricks used.
    a lot of the expected ones, like “Tag Barrel Storage” and the numerous wall clips. are involved.
    but it’s still plenty of new info for those not actively tracking DK64 speed running.
     
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  • Index
    • tumblr_inline_mqrh26jIU11qz4rgp.jpg
    Honestly I’m surprised no one used this in relation to the title.
     
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    The issue with DK64 is not how long it is. It's just that it's not a very good game at all regardless of the length.

    It's still possibly the most boring 3D platformer I ever played and the worst Rare game on the N64.

    Compared to how good the DKC games were this was such a disappointment.
     
    0
    Are we really using a tool-assisted game breaking speed run to push back against a claim that the casual playthrough of the most notoriously bloated collectathon platformer is not actually too long?
     
    I mean...

    Super Mario 64 100% speedrun is 1hr 36min.

    Banjo Kazooie 100% speedrun is 1hr 56min.

    I think the numbers speak for themselves. Especially compared to the human time (5hr 10min) time for DK64 101%.
     
    0
    Just had a look at the video and it completely breaks the game lol. Not impressive at all. Prefer speed runs that don't do that.
     
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    As someone who 101'd this game on release, the game is too long and cumbersome, and a TAS speedrun wont make me change my opinion. In fact, if a TAS speedrun took 4h to complete the game, it doesn't exactly speaks on its favor.

    PS: Taking a speedrun record as a measure to compare with the average gamer is like taking a 100m world record as a measure for the average Joe to compare with. Don't misunderstand me, i love speedrunning, but ffs Fami, we know better than this.
     
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    And mario odyssey 100% is 8:33

    The problem is not the 101% time, but that the required critical path is long winded.

    DK64 any% is 24 min,
    Mario 16 Star is ~15,
    Odyssey 56 min
     
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    Y'all I think the OP is having a little fun with the title and premise. It's a cool run.
     
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    Since this is a Donkey Kong 64 thread I feel obliged to come in and say once more the game is a near masterpiece and not as bloated as everyone claims.

    I'll die on this hill, thank you.
     
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