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Discussion I kinda wish Star Fox Zero got a mulligan

Decoyman

Decoyman

Bob-omb
Would it have been better than Star Fox 64 if the controls were improved? Probably not, and it still has the problem of every post-64 Star Fox game in that at its best it usually just feels like it lives in the shadow of its most definitive title, but man; when things actually "clicked" it felt cool as hell to transition between the Arwing and Walker like you're some space station infiltrating Transformer. Not a lot of games really capture that type of thrill, let alone even bother making rail shooters. I remember liking the Gyrowing stages too.

Sadly the controls and some of the overall design was so ambitiously maximalist in its Wii U gamepad reliance that I don't think they'll ever be able to port it without taking a sledgehammer to it. Rewatching the final boss made me realize how they'd basically need to redesign the entirety of several levels to circumvent the way many of its obstacles are conscious of the player's access to multiple perspectives. I don't know if a brand new Star Fox game is something I'd be excited about when 64 was already pretty much perfect, but I do sometimes wish Zero's better ideas got to shine in a modern feeling Star Fox game. It'd probably take a whole lot more direct design effort than Skyward Sword did but I wouldn't object to a "revision" type re-release.
 
When they have a Starfox game that pushes some aspects forward like Assault tried to do, that's when SF should have a new release...
 
It's kind of unbelievable that Star Fox was on the level of Mother 3 in terms of how demanded a new entry was from Nintendo fans. I mean every single direct has people talking about a new one, even was mentioned in that Robot Chicken E3 skit they did back in 2014. Then Zero came out and I barley hear about Star Fox anymore.
 
As flawed as Assault was, at least it was an attempt to move the franchise forward — to be clear, I really did like Assault! But Zero was another 64 retread with weird controls on a dead console without a clear vision on what the franchise should be. I don’t think there’s a world anymore for pure arcade shooters like Star Fox anymore, so Nintendo would need to hear a fairly compelling pitch on how to actually grow the franchise somehow.
 
Star Fox is just caught in the same type of predicament that Metroid was in, post-Other M. Right down to how a divisive entry was followed up by a game that barely had much to do with the property in question at all (Federation Force, Starlink), and then THAT was followed up by a "re-release" of a fairly obscure game in its respective saga (Samus Returns, Star Fox 2 on SNES Classic/NSO).

And much like Metroid, I think once Nintendo and/or the dev they've tapped to work on a new game get their collective acts together on a strong title that has a firm view of what to expect from the brand going forward, things will be alright.

In short, Star Fox needs its "Metroid Dread" moment, now.
 
What I would love is Starfox 64 missions but with a hub on the bridge of the Great Fox like Monster Hunter’s tavern- where you can tackle the next mission with an NPC squadron, or seamlessly party up online with a squadron that’s ready to launch. Or tinker with your Arwing with Peppy in the fighter bay. Play as Fox and co if you like, have a story campaign for them, but maybe have a character designer too so you can play as your own rookie pilot within Starfox. The match-up of arcadey gameplay with shoutouts for ‘enemy on my tail’ and ‘follow me!’ and mechanics to assist other PCs with stuff could work really well. Have some massive dogfights you can sign up for too, like SF64’s all-range missions. And some missions where a range of vehicles is viable, but some themed missions where you have to be, say, a landmaster squadron or a transforming Arwing squadron. Let people personalise their vehicles.
 
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Wouldn’t be surprised if we got a starfox game this year, be it a remaster or a new experiment
 
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Star Fox is weird because many fans just want it to be more of the same, back to Star Fox 64 basics...but that doesn't really appeal to that wide of an audience. So you can try something new, which may alienate the diehard fans (and not even bring in new fans unless it really works), or you can keep doing the same old things and remain more of a niche thing.

That being said, I'd love to see a new Star Fox game. I think that the series has a lot of potential and I like the characters and overall vibe of that universe. It's just tricky to pull it off.
 
I bounce back and forth on this because sure it does feel like a game with potential being held down, it's easy to think if it simply controlled better it would be a fantastic, but it's clear the whole game is tuned to accommodate the controls, enemy count and placement would have to be overhauled, levels redesigned and extended so the game isn't even shorter. And I'm sure by now they'd want to upgrade the assets a bit, so you may as well just go the full nine yards and build a new game.
 
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Cubs017 said:
Star Fox is weird because many fans just want it to be more of the same, back to Star Fox 64 basics...but that doesn't really appeal to that wide of an audience. So you can try something new, which may alienate the diehard fans (and not even bring in new fans unless it really works), or you can keep doing the same old things and remain more of a niche thing.

That being said, I'd love to see a new Star Fox game. I think that the series has a lot of potential and I like the characters and overall vibe of that universe. It's just tricky to pull it off.
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I feel mixing 1/64 and 2 could be the trick. Keep the linear story mode but then New game plus adopts 2’s format in a roguelike form. The system map is now free moving and you’ve got x goals depending on difficulty and various vehicles you can unlock and use, along with wing mates with different abilities(that you can also play as) with different arwing type/land master/ aqua master compatibility. Certain events are still on rails, tho planet assaults depend on what’s happening base state usually being all range, but certain events trigger on rail encounters.
 
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TBH I hope they just make a new game. I don't mind if SFZ stays dead, it was horrific. Worse than SF64 in every way imaginable. Platinum and SF should have been a match made in heaven, but this was a turd. Wasted opportunity and potential does not even begin to describe this title.

It’s the worst kind of sequel. ultra safe, except this one thing, that makes the experience 10X worse than earlier entries that it is desperately trying to copy but fails even at the copying. part.

It looks bad and sounds bad to boot. It also came out at a time when VR was just getting off the ground and having played some immersive space shooters in VR, the shit SF Zero was doing was downright comical by comparison. The gamepad implementation was a horrible idea with a terrible execution.

Star Fox should have gotten an entry on the Wii. The IR aiming was practically made for a arcade shooter. It still baffles me that Nintendo never made it work, even on Switch with joycon gyro it would still be much better than whatever Zero was doing with that fisher price toy. All we need then is brand new levels (not worse copies of SF64 levels like Zero was keen on doing) and a killer soundtrack and good visuals, and were set. It would also help if levels were fully fleshed out and could be repayable multiple times so that the game could justify full prcice but Nintendo has been cutting corners with this franchise post N64.
 
I really like the controls! If you go back to Star Fox 64 immediately afterwards you realize how much is missing in terms of control. Everything kind of culminates in the final boss which is one of Platinum's best boss encounters imo. I would definitely consider it on the level of the original, 64, and command.

A common complaint about Zero's controls is "the on-screen crosshair is in accurate"! but this is wrong. Star Fox has always had a crosshair system with "depth" for lack of a better word to add to immersion. Previous games in the series kept you from moving that crosshair past a certain point on the screen because it becomes inaccurate to the 3rd person view. Zero lets you go past that point because the view is optionally first person. End result is more freedom of movement without sacrificing accuracy.
 
Assault was clearly the right direction for the series but it came out two generations early. A version of assault with the campaign basically as is, tweaked ground gunplay controls, and 8-16 player online where you can seamlessly go between ground, tank, and arwing combat would probably be a big hit.
 
It would be neat to see the IP reinvent itself. I love the characters but can't stand the gameplay.
 
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I LOVE Starfox Zero and I've been waiting for the longest time for nintendo to announce a port for the switch, but sadly it never happened... All it needed in my opinion was reworking the double camera thing which sucked. Everything else was awesome. To me, the perfect StarFox game would have the transforming vehicles from Zero, the submarine and on foot missions from 64 & Assault and the open world freedom (seamless transition from planet to outer space) from Starlink with traditional "on rail" type of missions.
 
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Assault fudged too much of the foundations of the series...
I mean ... Shooting and barrel rolls just flying in general was jacked up
It's not that the game didn't have good ideas... it's that it was a worse feeling experience than 64

The series is stuck... it feels like they've made the first game 4 times ... or rather the 64 game ...
I liked zero for what it was... and once you get what the game wants you to do the controls and gamepad implementation weren't exactly garbage...

I feel like a new story, not a rehash, with 4 player asymmetric missions would work out well...
Think like return of the jedi... Han had to lower the shields, Lando lead the attack on the death star, and Luke was fighting vader... all 3 of these things were super important to the story and were interwoven and somewhat dependent on each other.

Missions where each player has different objectives to accomplish would be really awesome especially if it's not locked in but you can as a squad decide how to handle the objectives and there are multiple ways to accomplish them like branching paths in 64. That is what the series needs.
 
BassForever said:
Assault was clearly the right direction for the series but it came out two generations early. A version of assault with the campaign basically as is, tweaked ground gunplay controls, and 8-16 player online where you can seamlessly go between ground, tank, and arwing combat would probably be a big hit.
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except for the part where the level design for the ground missions were shit
 
SpaceGodzilla said:
except for the part where the level design for the ground missions were shit
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Well, you have to remember the campaign was just using multiplayer maps.

The game was cobbled together from the remains of an arcade game on Triforce hardware, and it showed.
 
MP! said:
Assault fudged too much of the foundations of the series...
I mean ... Shooting and barrel rolls just flying in general was jacked up
It's not that the game didn't have good ideas... it's that it was a worse feeling experience than 64
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Yeah, it's pretty wild how bad everything in that game is. The story is interesting, it's a shame they shied away from that after it and Command.
 
What's amazing to me is that they never made a star fox game for the wii. Maybe Command scared them off. Are there any scraps of news or rumors about a Star Fox Wii that I missed?
 
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BassForever said:
Assault was clearly the right direction for the series but it came out two generations early. A version of assault with the campaign basically as is, tweaked ground gunplay controls, and 8-16 player online where you can seamlessly go between ground, tank, and arwing combat would probably be a big hit.
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I actually think this is what they should do. If there's a large PvE online element that can seamlessly integrate arwing, ground, and tank combat, that would be something I could see Nintendo getting behind. But that's a tall order and it'd have to be the right developer.
 
Starfox 2 feels very similar to Metroid dread to me. A spiritual remake/reboot could do wonders.

The Starlink guys are also still around somewhere too.
 
TreIII said:
Star Fox is just caught in the same type of predicament that Metroid was in, post-Other M. Right down to how a divisive entry was followed up by a game that barely had much to do with the property in question at all (Federation Force, Starlink), and then THAT was followed up by a "re-release" of a fairly obscure game in its respective saga (Samus Returns, Star Fox 2 on SNES Classic/NSO).

And much like Metroid, I think once Nintendo and/or the dev they've tapped to work on a new game get their collective acts together on a strong title that has a firm view of what to expect from the brand going forward, things will be alright.

In short, Star Fox needs its "Metroid Dread" moment, now.
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theres a difference.

indies championed the metroidvania making it more popular than ever.

metroid dread didn't do anything gamechanging, it was simply a brand name metroidvania in a time when metroidvanias were popular.


however rail shooters are super dead. star fox has to reinvent itself entirely to prove that rail shooters can work in a modern environment, or imo mission based primarily single player shooters still can.

metroid had the option of looking at the past and seeing what worked and doing that again.

Star fox does not have the luxury, it needs a total reboot or at least a game that does not take any cues from 64
 
Build off of Assault and make the game longer, instead of 10 mainline story missions have 19 to 20 and bring back the star map system from all of the previous games but with new planets so every playthrough would give you a different experience.
 
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I think a rail shooter could work very well today. Star Fox Zero's biggest problem is it released on the Wii U in 2016. Nobody is gonna give you a chance when Nintendo is currently the butt of a joke in the industry and even Nintendo fans are depressed due to lack of games and Iwata's death. If the same game released in 2018 on Switch I think it would be a fan favorite.
 
Djehuty said:
theres a difference.

indies championed the metroidvania making it more popular than ever.

metroid dread didn't do anything gamechanging, it was simply a brand name metroidvania in a time when metroidvanias were popular.


however rail shooters are super dead. star fox has to reinvent itself entirely to prove that rail shooters can work in a modern environment, or imo mission based primarily single player shooters still can.

metroid had the option of looking at the past and seeing what worked and doing that again.

Star fox does not have the luxury, it needs a total reboot or at least a game that does not take any cues from 64
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While I agree there is a difference, my argument is that it's not as bleak, for two reasons.

On one hand, for better or worse, Star Fox's "identity" is pretty malleable. Once outside of the confines of the original, 64 and Zero, you have a 3D Zelda-like, two different takes on a tactical-sim + corridor shooter elements, and 3rd person arena combat game. You could, in theory, revisit and build upon any one of those, and with the appropriate finesse behind it, you'd have the makings for giving Star Fox a definitive direction. And especially if these rumors about a remake/remaster of Assault end up being real, perhaps we'll get the opportunity to see what might possibly be just that.

Now, for the other? I'd say that rail shooters, and heck, any arcade-styled game, for that matter, can still carry on into the modern era, if they're executed well and have a lot of replay value. For example, Bamco has had successes with the likes of Ace Combat and Armored Core. I'd even argue that New Pokemon Snap is one of the better examples of a "rail shooter" that was quite successful, despite being largely unchanged from the N64 original. To quote the IGN review, "Pokemon Snap, but more", ended up working just fine for that game. We never really got anything that truly escaped Star Fox 64's shadow, while also giving us more of what we loved of that game. And that's largely the very reason some of us still would like to see Nintendo, or a worthy partner, try.
 
Brock Reiher said:
I think a rail shooter could work very well today. Star Fox Zero's biggest problem is it released on the Wii U in 2016. Nobody is gonna give you a chance when Nintendo is currently the butt of a joke in the industry and even Nintendo fans are depressed due to lack of games and Iwata's death. If the same game released in 2018 on Switch I think it would be a fan favorite.
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Yeah doubt it was considered a mark against the series thanks to the platform. But there not being a non-gimmicky champion for the franchise is a tricky one
 
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I kinda hope Starfox as a whole gets a mulligan. Let's be honest, the titles that resonated all stemmed from the first; tight, variety in paths, shooty with great comments from your co arwings. And I say this as a dude who loves Adventure. I think the characters they've created could be adopted to a wider array of genre and lose nothing in terms of likability. It's a great series that's rarely strayed from its roots, and maybe that should change. Maybe they keep the space opera, dogfighting, exciting exploration thematically and adapt those literal universes to new concepts. I'd try it. The pedigree is there. They just need to do more ie: see F Zero, Metroid. The lack of investment. Somewhat. There's a great foundation and a significant amount of interesting lore (I bet smash fan from inception to know would love to visit/revisit some trophy descriptions ).

Starfox rocks. It should be getting some more attention... I mean, if Sin & Punishment is iced for now like a Megas XLR character
 
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I think it becomes a very good game once you get used to the controls, which took me about 2 runs through the entire thing. So yeah, I'd give it a mulligan so it can be experienced with a more immediate control scheme.

But I think what the franchise needs is a new entry with a bold new direction that doesn't overlook the core of the franchise.
 
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Brock Reiher said:
I think a rail shooter could work very well today. Star Fox Zero's biggest problem is it released on the Wii U in 2016. Nobody is gonna give you a chance when Nintendo is currently the butt of a joke in the industry and even Nintendo fans are depressed due to lack of games and Iwata's death. If the same game released in 2018 on Switch I think it would be a fan favorite.
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I’m honestly skeptical that a rail shooter could work today without a massive retooling of its gameplay loop — there aren’t a ton of arcade-type games released today outside of the fighting genre and those have seen massive expansions on their single player experience. And that’s a genre that’s still alive and kicking, rail shooters really aren’t.
 
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TreIII said:
While I agree there is a difference, my argument is that it's not as bleak, for two reasons.

On one hand, for better or worse, Star Fox's "identity" is pretty malleable. Once outside of the confines of the original, 64 and Zero, you have a 3D Zelda-like, two different takes on a tactical-sim + corridor shooter elements, and 3rd person arena combat game. You could, in theory, revisit and build upon any one of those, and with the appropriate finesse behind it, you'd have the makings for giving Star Fox a definitive direction. And especially if these rumors about a remake/remaster of Assault end up being real, perhaps we'll get the opportunity to see what might possibly be just that.

Now, for the other? I'd say that rail shooters, and heck, any arcade-styled game, for that matter, can still carry on into the modern era, if they're executed well and have a lot of replay value. For example, Bamco has had successes with the likes of Ace Combat and Armored Core. I'd even argue that New Pokemon Snap is one of the better examples of a "rail shooter" that was quite successful, despite being largely unchanged from the N64 original. To quote the IGN review, "Pokemon Snap, but more", ended up working just fine for that game. We never really got anything that truly escaped Star Fox 64's shadow, while also giving us more of what we loved of that game. And that's largely the very reason some of us still would like to see Nintendo, or a worthy partner, try.
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The fir at point is it’s strength.


They need to avoid on what 64 is and do something entirely different or it will forever exist in 64’s shadow no matter how great it is.

Space adventure shooter game woudl be my go to
 
I think I enjoyed what I played of it... maybe. I should give it another go. Possibly this weekend. I don't trust the internet's opinion on this, or really anything usually.
 
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Djehuty said:
The fir at point is it’s strength.


They need to avoid on what 64 is and do something entirely different or it will forever exist in 64’s shadow no matter how great it is.

Space adventure shooter game woudl be my go to
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They've spent most of the series doing something different and every single time it's just made the games worse than a straight sequel to Starfox 64 would have been.
 
I really really enjoyed Star Fox 0. I put up with and then found a lot of enjoyment out of the second screen but no one wants to have to put up with anything when playing a game. I'd be happy to buy it again without the gamepad gameplay, better visuals and an extensive multiplayer.

This is one of the few games left that barely anyone purchased that could be given a second life on a new system. Zero's reception seemed so negative though, would that make any difference with folks giving it a chance today? I suppose us news nosey nerds remember and maybe that means nothing to a potential brand new audience nearly 10 years later. If it released with a control scheme that people adored as much as 64's with leader boards and fleshed out online battle modes I bet it would do great numbers.
 
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I just wish for the day we get better voice acting in star fox games to go along with a new game, everything AFTER 64 has been downhill including the 3ds remake with everyone sounding like they are just phoning it in, atleast, to me thats how they sound.
 
I'm one of the minority who really enjoyed Star Fox Zero, but what I did not like was rebooting the story again. 64 through Command were going somewhere really interesting and dark IMO. No idea why they thought it had to go back to basics again.

I still dream of a game following up the story of Command... Marcus McCloud starts a new team, Falco is on it as an old advisor-type character. They fight against Andross's grandson's army... I can dream!!
 
I'm of the weird opinion that every Star Fox game has had something to offer. For Zero, I think Sector Beta is probably the best mission in terms of showing an actual navy battle.

As for what Star Fox can be? I think it can change, though so long as airfighting is the center, that's really all that needs to be there.
 
yoshi12345786 said:
I just wish for the day we get better voice acting in star fox games to go along with a new game, everything AFTER 64 has been downhill including the 3ds remake with everyone sounding like they are just phoning it in, atleast, to me thats how they sound.
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I always had a feeling that Star Fox 64 3D's voice direction was purposely made corny or cheesy. I can play through the OG 64 over and over and the vast majority of those lines sound "real" for lack of a better word. The characters sound like they are in the moment and living in that world.

Someone in all their overly educated and sophisticated wisdom found Star Fox 64's original voice work to be bad and assumed its popularity came out of being over the top and corny. A so bad it's good kind of idea. Then tried to recreate the what they assumed was corny and over the top for a new generation. They were wrong! Sure 64's voice work was meme'ing before memes were a thing but it didn't mean it was bad.

I felt Zero at least was a step up from that.
 
Djehuty said:
The fir at point is it’s strength.


They need to avoid on what 64 is and do something entirely different or it will forever exist in 64’s shadow no matter how great it is.

Space adventure shooter game woudl be my go to
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command did something different and did it well but people didn't like it because it was something different. you can't blame Nintendo for trying to perfect 64 with Zero.
 
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Romancedawn said:
I always had a feeling that Star Fox 64 3D's voice direction was purposely made corny or cheesy. I can play through the OG 64 over and over and the vast majority of those lines sound "real" for lack of a better word. The characters sound like they are in the moment and living in that world.

Someone in all their overly educated and sophisticated wisdom found Star Fox 64's original voice work to be bad and assumed its popularity came out of being over the top and corny. A so bad it's good kind of idea. Then tried to recreate the what they assumed was corny and over the top for a new generation. They were wrong! Sure 64's voice work was meme'ing before memes were a thing but it didn't mean it was bad.

I felt Zero at least was a step up from that.
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While I do agree on principle, I will admit my favorite Zero line is cheesy over-acting. (It's the one where you play as Peppy and the Enemy commander says "Just one ship!?! What an Insult! Ready The Main Cannons! DESTROY THIS LITTLE PEST!!!" and like every three lines he increases in both sound and pitch by an octave and the last sentence he's squeaking out his lines and its so good)

We actually got the OG 64's lines uncompressed back during the leak and yeah, they're done well.

 
Romancedawn said:
I always had a feeling that Star Fox 64 3D's voice direction was purposely made corny or cheesy. I can play through the OG 64 over and over and the vast majority of those lines sound "real" for lack of a better word. The characters sound like they are in the moment and living in that world.

Someone in all their overly educated and sophisticated wisdom found Star Fox 64's original voice work to be bad and assumed its popularity came out of being over the top and corny. A so bad it's good kind of idea. Then tried to recreate the what they assumed was corny and over the top for a new generation. They were wrong! Sure 64's voice work was meme'ing before memes were a thing but it didn't mean it was bad.

I felt Zero at least was a step up from that.
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Andross is the worst honestly to me in both 3d and Zero
 
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