Predictions I am dreading the Pokemon Black and White remakes...

[DittoM]

I’m not sure if knowing that the best Pokémon games, Black 2 and White 2, will never be remade is a good thing or not. Like if they’re remade they could reach a brand new audience, but Pokemon remakes make me worried these days following Let’s GO and BDSP (despite me enjoying BDSP for what it was).

A part of me does want to see Black and White remade because they’re the worst selling pair of mainline games despite being some of the best, but I just don’t see modern GF doing them justice, despite liking some of their more recent games. And even if they were remade in either the Scarlet & Violet style or the BDSP style, that still leaves Black 2 and White 2 in limbo.

The ideal thing for me would be to get Square to make it in HD2D, and the spritework was one of the best things about gen 5, but the likely looks of that happening is low. So the best option for me is to port the originals B/W/B2/W2 and then make a new Legends game, like Legends: Kyurem.

 

[Nmanic]

The DP remake route is the worst case scenario for sure. I actually don't mind the chibi stuff, but it was such a barebones remake that lacked everything that gen 4 had improved with Platinum. And you can't turn the damn exp share off (which you haven't been able to the entire switch gen, and it sucks). Basically, there's no reason to play it over the original versions, and it's a definite step down from Platinum, without even major extra gameplay additions or new noteworthy content like the past Pokémon remakes.

Bitching about bdsp aside, black and white is probably harder to mess up because there's not a third version that improved everything about the games. Bw2 would probably need their own separate remakes. But yeah, if they do gen 5, I hope they knock it out of the park

 

[niconiconick64]

Speaking of gen 5 vs nu-pokemon* games, I saw a recurring image on an infamous online website which I will not name (which coincidentally happens to host the worst kind of opinions on the franchise). That image helped me better understand the utter fallacy that nu-pokemon enjoyers live on: the idea that more features alone somehow improve the experience rather than the game design basis, the soundtrack, the plot development, the aesthetics and whatnot.
*any mainline game past gen 5

The image in question:

As someone who not only has played every single mainline pokemon game up until legends arceus but actually OWNs multiple of these titles, I can easily read through the fallacy presented in the image above.

While it is true that gen 6+ brought a lot to the table in terms of features, everyone who's a gen 5 lover and gets it when it comes to what makes a good pokemon game realizes that the problem with every. single. gen. after 5 boils down to things that games before gen 6 nailed down just fine:

• the OST
• the game design (routes and their enemies and available pokemon, quests, etc...)
• the pacing and interruptions (cutscenes, roadblocks, etc...)
• the aesthetics (specially how gen 5 sprites made mons feel "alive" and pop out of the screen despite the game being mostly 2d)

Even if old pokemon indeed had some shortcomings when it came to the aforementioned topics, the overall quality of each was definitely higher.
*Eg: the pokestar studios arc, the men blockade on certain routes, etc...

But going back on topic: the clueless people who look at the image above may think that the poster indeed had a point and I'll use theirs to further explain the (same) problems that happen on gen 7 and 8:
They claim the animations and 3d models that came with gen 6 was a great addon despite however, the fact that nearly EVERY single 3d model suffers from a lack of saturation so severe that certain pokemon's shiny versions are nearly indistinguishable from their non-shiny counterpart. Not only that, but the idle animations for many pokemon are so devoid of soul that it makes the characters look more static than the 2d sprites in previous titles.
Some of the easiest examples that come to mind are typhlosion's 3d model and scarmory.

The poster also boasts about battle BGs despite the fact that on his own image, two of the presented backgrounds are as plain and uninteresting as gen 5's. An issue that later games like SWSH didn't address. In fact, they made it worse: not only plain backgrounds are a thing (eg: team yell hotel fight) but the game sometimes even loads a background that has barely anything to do with the cutscene that precedes it (eg: iirc, a certain fight vs hop at a bridge).

Now, I will not comment on the bottom screen minigames and widgets as well as the added online functionalities as those are indeed uncontestable improvements. But I still think it's kinda dumb things like customization in gen 6 being mentioned considering most of the cosmetics in gen 6 are recolours/reskins. This issue still happens on sword and shield albeit I think customization in that game improved coming from X and Y.

Lastly, one thing that certainly got my attention: the cherry-picking with route design. Not only they ignore how every game after gen 5 feels cramped to walk around (due mainly to the distance between route limits but also the route design itself) but they also picked some of the most unfair comparisons between routes: one of the smallest map sections in BW: the cold storage instead of say, pinwheel forest.
This is something recurrent with nu-pokemon simps who like to shit on gen 5: they often present extreme cases of shortcomings in previous gens to try and invalidate claims from old fans that their games were better whilst completely ignoring flaws on their own titles.


I know I made a very expansive post and probably didn't get my point across to many people ITT yet, so I'll try to sum it up as best as I can:
The mainline franchise under new management is imo, incapable of presenting a new game up to the standards of the old titles. This isn't because GF isn't capable of doing so. It's a problem that comes down to development time and management. Even though BW2 released about only a year before X and Y, the original game was released way earlier and many of the assets were re-utilized (unlike gen 6) as the map, sprites, scripts, music, etc... are essentially the same

So in reality, gen 6 despite the massive paradigm shift was possible due to how GF had a wider time gap between a big release compared to say, pokemon moon vs ultra moon or even USUM vs SWSH.
I think that a nearly 3 or 3.5 year gap would be ideal between generations and I'm glad that at the very least, GF is done with mid-gen rehashes like USUM.


On my ideal world, a perfect gen 5 remake would basically come down to:

• a game with environment and character designs for 3d models reminiscent of SWSH* but improved upon, fixing idle animations for certain mons and their texture colours
• animations on par with legends arceus with ideally, graphical effects up to the standards set by pokemon battle revolution on the wii
• following pokemon as well as non-instanced battles like on legends arceus although I'd be completely okay with instanced battles as long as the legwork for battle BGs is present
• KEEP the game's content intact and maybe even expand upon it (no, a warning sign saying that "the black city project has started!" is NOT acceptable)
• don't mess with the game's difficulty
• don't downgrade the OST

*main town aesthetics, not the wild area and emphasis on aesthetics as routes even for the main towns are pretty mediocre

Well, this was one hell of a post. And I didn't even get into details such as my hate boner for gen 6's melodically uninspiring OST (hell, the elite 4 theme alone made me lose all hope with it's awful buildup with a techno bgm that ends up resulting in the most boring climax ever. And I'm not even going to get into how NONE of the people who I spoke with who defend the game could name a single piece of the OST that wasn't: lumiose or the bike theme.

 

[Pokemaniac]

I'm not super worried about what Game Freak is going to do. They seem to have moved on from remakes in favor of experimental follow-up projects. As long as it's more Legends Arceus than Let's Go, it should be fine.

What I am worried about is that TPC is going to fart out another cheap, rushed out, butchered, outsourced remake like BDSP. As far as I'm concerned there are two acceptable outcomes: either a actually well made, full remake of both BW and BW2 with everything intact and an HD-2D-ish art style, or just put the original games up on an emulator with Home support and (preferably) online restored (preferably including the Dream World, because there's sort of a bunch of important functions locked behind that).

This is kinda off-topic but I'm confused as to what the general consensus for B/W was. (I play Gold at launch, then more or less tuned Pokémon out until Go/Let's Go, so I was not aware of the reception at the time.)

I've read that Gen V had some of the most disliked Pokémon designs. But it seems the games themselves were fairly beloved. Is that right?

There was significant backlash to Gen 5 Pokémon designs, particularly from the genwunner camp, but it was hardly universal.

 

[Mediking]

Prolly won’t get “remade” but will get some kinda combination game

 

[thoughthaver]

Speaking of gen 5 vs nu-pokemon* games, I saw a recurring image on an infamous online website which I will not name (which coincidentally happens to host the worst kind of opinions on the franchise). That image helped me better understand the utter fallacy that nu-pokemon enjoyers live on: the idea that more features alone somehow improve the experience rather than the game design basis, the soundtrack, the plot development, the aesthetics and whatnot.
*any mainline game past gen 5

The image in question:

As someone who not only has played every single mainline pokemon game up until legends arceus but actually OWNs multiple of these titles, I can easily read through the fallacy presented in the image above.

While it is true that gen 6+ brought a lot to the table in terms of features, everyone who's a gen 5 lover and gets it when it comes to what makes a good pokemon game realizes that the problem with every. single. gen. after 5 boils down to things that games before gen 6 nailed down just fine:

• the OST
• the game design (routes and their enemies and available pokemon, quests, etc...)
• the pacing and interruptions (cutscenes, roadblocks, etc...)
• the aesthetics (specially how gen 5 sprites made mons feel "alive" and pop out of the screen despite the game being mostly 2d)

Even if old pokemon indeed had some shortcomings when it came to the aforementioned topics, the overall quality of each was definitely higher.
*Eg: the pokestar studios arc, the men blockade on certain routes, etc...

But going back on topic: the clueless people who look at the image above may think that the poster indeed had a point and I'll use theirs to further explain the (same) problems that happen on gen 7 and 8:
They claim the animations and 3d models that came with gen 6 was a great addon despite however, the fact that nearly EVERY single 3d model suffers from a lack of saturation so severe that certain pokemon's shiny versions are nearly indistinguishable from their non-shiny counterpart. Not only that, but the idle animations for many pokemon are so devoid of soul that it makes the characters look more static than the 2d sprites in previous titles.
Some of the easiest examples that come to mind are typhlosion's 3d model and scarmory.

The poster also boasts about battle BGs despite the fact that on his own image, two of the presented backgrounds are as plain and uninteresting as gen 5's. An issue that later games like SWSH didn't address. In fact, they made it worse: not only plain backgrounds are a thing (eg: team yell hotel fight) but the game sometimes even loads a background that has barely anything to do with the cutscene that precedes it (eg: iirc, a certain fight vs hop at a bridge).

Now, I will not comment on the bottom screen minigames and widgets as well as the added online functionalities as those are indeed uncontestable improvements. But I still think it's kinda dumb things like customization in gen 6 being mentioned considering most of the cosmetics in gen 6 are recolours/reskins. This issue still happens on sword and shield albeit I think customization in that game improved coming from X and Y.

Lastly, one thing that certainly got my attention: the cherry-picking with route design. Not only they ignore how every game after gen 5 feels cramped to walk around (due mainly to the distance between route limits but also the route design itself) but they also picked some of the most unfair comparisons between routes: one of the smallest map sections in BW: the cold storage instead of say, pinwheel forest.
This is something recurrent with nu-pokemon simps who like to shit on gen 5: they often present extreme cases of shortcomings in previous gens to try and invalidate claims from old fans that their games were better whilst completely ignoring flaws on their own titles.


I know I made a very expansive post and probably didn't get my point across to many people ITT yet, so I'll try to sum it up as best as I can:
The mainline franchise under new management is imo, incapable of presenting a new game up to the standards of the old titles. This isn't because GF isn't capable of doing so. It's a problem that comes down to development time and management. Even though BW2 released about only a year before X and Y, the original game was released way earlier and many of the assets were re-utilized (unlike gen 6) as the map, sprites, scripts, music, etc... are essentially the same

So in reality, gen 6 despite the massive paradigm shift was possible due to how GF had a wider time gap between a big release compared to say, pokemon moon vs ultra moon or even USUM vs SWSH.
I think that a nearly 3 or 3.5 year gap would be ideal between generations and I'm glad that at the very least, GF is done with mid-gen rehashes like USUM.


On my ideal world, a perfect gen 5 remake would basically come down to:

• a game with environment and character designs for 3d models reminiscent of SWSH* but improved upon, fixing idle animations for certain mons and their texture colours
• animations on par with legends arceus with ideally, graphical effects up to the standards set by pokemon battle revolution on the wii
• following pokemon as well as non-instanced battles like on legends arceus although I'd be completely okay with instanced battles as long as the legwork for battle BGs is present
• KEEP the game's content intact and maybe even expand upon it (no, a warning sign saying that "the black city project has started!" is NOT acceptable)
• don't mess with the game's difficulty
• don't downgrade the OST

*main town aesthetics, not the wild area and emphasis on aesthetics as routes even for the main towns are pretty mediocre

Well, this was one hell of a post. And I didn't even get into details such as my hate boner for gen 6's melodically uninspiring OST (hell, the elite 4 theme alone made me lose all hope with it's awful buildup with a techno bgm that ends up resulting in the most boring climax ever. And I'm not even going to get into how NONE of the people who I spoke with who defend the game could name a single piece of the OST that wasn't: lumiose or the bike theme.

really aint that serious

 

[Jahranimo]

It's still my favorite generation, and I don't think I'm interested in a remake.

 

[Clov]

I wouldn't be surprised if they do what they did with Gen 4; one non-Game Freak faithful remake for the Pokemon Fans, and a Legends style game by Game Freak for people who enjoy Pokemon. Though the latter might be a bit of wishful thinking on my part; Game Freak, for all I could know, could make something completely different from Legends. Or, instead of either, what if they made a Black/White 3? That would be neat!

really aint that serious

This! Insane to me to see this massive post dunking on unknown posters from somewhere else, going on and on about how they hate X/Y... while ignoring the great stuff those games had!

What makes X/Y so great? It's not only the introduction of Sylveon, the best Eeveelution and one of the best Pokemon of all time. It's not just that it brings in Fairy types, the best of all Pokemon types. You get to see Pokemon in 3D for the first time in a mainline game, and play with them! It's so cute! X/Y was when Game Freak started really understanding what was great about Pokemon; playing with cute Pokemon.

 

[MondoMega]

Speaking of gen 5 vs nu-pokemon* games, I saw a recurring image on an infamous online website which I will not name (which coincidentally happens to host the worst kind of opinions on the franchise). That image helped me better understand the utter fallacy that nu-pokemon enjoyers live on: the idea that more features alone somehow improve the experience rather than the game design basis, the soundtrack, the plot development, the aesthetics and whatnot.
*any mainline game past gen 5

The image in question:

As someone who not only has played every single mainline pokemon game up until legends arceus but actually OWNs multiple of these titles, I can easily read through the fallacy presented in the image above.

While it is true that gen 6+ brought a lot to the table in terms of features, everyone who's a gen 5 lover and gets it when it comes to what makes a good pokemon game realizes that the problem with every. single. gen. after 5 boils down to things that games before gen 6 nailed down just fine:

• the OST
• the game design (routes and their enemies and available pokemon, quests, etc...)
• the pacing and interruptions (cutscenes, roadblocks, etc...)
• the aesthetics (specially how gen 5 sprites made mons feel "alive" and pop out of the screen despite the game being mostly 2d)

Even if old pokemon indeed had some shortcomings when it came to the aforementioned topics, the overall quality of each was definitely higher.
*Eg: the pokestar studios arc, the men blockade on certain routes, etc...

But going back on topic: the clueless people who look at the image above may think that the poster indeed had a point and I'll use theirs to further explain the (same) problems that happen on gen 7 and 8:
They claim the animations and 3d models that came with gen 6 was a great addon despite however, the fact that nearly EVERY single 3d model suffers from a lack of saturation so severe that certain pokemon's shiny versions are nearly indistinguishable from their non-shiny counterpart. Not only that, but the idle animations for many pokemon are so devoid of soul that it makes the characters look more static than the 2d sprites in previous titles.
Some of the easiest examples that come to mind are typhlosion's 3d model and scarmory.

The poster also boasts about battle BGs despite the fact that on his own image, two of the presented backgrounds are as plain and uninteresting as gen 5's. An issue that later games like SWSH didn't address. In fact, they made it worse: not only plain backgrounds are a thing (eg: team yell hotel fight) but the game sometimes even loads a background that has barely anything to do with the cutscene that precedes it (eg: iirc, a certain fight vs hop at a bridge).

Now, I will not comment on the bottom screen minigames and widgets as well as the added online functionalities as those are indeed uncontestable improvements. But I still think it's kinda dumb things like customization in gen 6 being mentioned considering most of the cosmetics in gen 6 are recolours/reskins. This issue still happens on sword and shield albeit I think customization in that game improved coming from X and Y.

Lastly, one thing that certainly got my attention: the cherry-picking with route design. Not only they ignore how every game after gen 5 feels cramped to walk around (due mainly to the distance between route limits but also the route design itself) but they also picked some of the most unfair comparisons between routes: one of the smallest map sections in BW: the cold storage instead of say, pinwheel forest.
This is something recurrent with nu-pokemon simps who like to shit on gen 5: they often present extreme cases of shortcomings in previous gens to try and invalidate claims from old fans that their games were better whilst completely ignoring flaws on their own titles.


I know I made a very expansive post and probably didn't get my point across to many people ITT yet, so I'll try to sum it up as best as I can:
The mainline franchise under new management is imo, incapable of presenting a new game up to the standards of the old titles. This isn't because GF isn't capable of doing so. It's a problem that comes down to development time and management. Even though BW2 released about only a year before X and Y, the original game was released way earlier and many of the assets were re-utilized (unlike gen 6) as the map, sprites, scripts, music, etc... are essentially the same

So in reality, gen 6 despite the massive paradigm shift was possible due to how GF had a wider time gap between a big release compared to say, pokemon moon vs ultra moon or even USUM vs SWSH.
I think that a nearly 3 or 3.5 year gap would be ideal between generations and I'm glad that at the very least, GF is done with mid-gen rehashes like USUM.


On my ideal world, a perfect gen 5 remake would basically come down to:

• a game with environment and character designs for 3d models reminiscent of SWSH* but improved upon, fixing idle animations for certain mons and their texture colours
• animations on par with legends arceus with ideally, graphical effects up to the standards set by pokemon battle revolution on the wii
• following pokemon as well as non-instanced battles like on legends arceus although I'd be completely okay with instanced battles as long as the legwork for battle BGs is present
• KEEP the game's content intact and maybe even expand upon it (no, a warning sign saying that "the black city project has started!" is NOT acceptable)
• don't mess with the game's difficulty
• don't downgrade the OST

*main town aesthetics, not the wild area and emphasis on aesthetics as routes even for the main towns are pretty mediocre

Well, this was one hell of a post. And I didn't even get into details such as my hate boner for gen 6's melodically uninspiring OST (hell, the elite 4 theme alone made me lose all hope with it's awful buildup with a techno bgm that ends up resulting in the most boring climax ever. And I'm not even going to get into how NONE of the people who I spoke with who defend the game could name a single piece of the OST that wasn't: lumiose or the bike theme.

Are “nu-Pokemon simps” in the room with you right now? Because I hardly see the sentiment nowadays. I feel like posts like the one you’ve dug out are the minority among clinically online Pokémon fans nowadays; you see far more posts longing for the DS era, Gen 4 and 5, the sprites, the stories, certain features we’ve lost along the way, etc. It just isn’t worth being concerned about; you aren’t personally under attack from the few people vocal about disliking the DS era.

Personally speaking I think Pokémon can still put out some pretty great music; the issues with models and animations have been fixed as of Legends Arceus, and now further with Scarlet and Violet getting those flying Pokémon to land on the ground; X and Y doesn’t represent every subsequent generation. I generally don’t see a super strong distinction between 2D and 3D Pokemon anyway; XY and SwSh are on the weaker side for me overall but SuMo and Legends are excellent, and Gen 9 is looking to be a good time as well.

You seem to be under the misconception that Pokemon games don’t get a lot of development time, though; and that isn’t true. Three years is already the standard for the major titles at Game Freak. By the time the main versions of the gen are wrapping up they’re already working on the next gen. Remakes / experimental titles are on their own cycle too. Legends started production in fall 2018 around when Let’s Go launched; and Scarlet and Violet similarly started production while Sword and Shield were wrapping up. They both got plenty of time in the oven.

 

[Lord Azrael]

You will get a barebones 2D remake by ILCA and you will like it

 

[Zellia]

This reminds me I should check out Volt White/Blaze Black 2 redux, which will probably offer me way more than any official remake ever will.

 

[meatbag]

This reminds me I should check out Volt White/Blaze Black 2 redux, which will probably offer me way more than any official remake ever will.

Drayano romhacks are the king of Pokemon games as far as I'm concerned

 

[Zalman]

I don't know, maybe I'm easy to please, but I'm happy with the fact that Diamond/Pearl are playable on Switch now in some capacity. The art style is unique compared to the other entries on the platform instead of being more of the same, and there are even QoL improvements from the original games. I was perfectly fine with the remakes and I'm looking forward to Black/White whenever they get to those.

 

[TanookiTom]

Personally I strongly feel that people have a strong connection to Pokémon games based on the ones they grew up with. So for me I do not have fond memories of B/W and this was when I kind of fell out with the series.
In that sense I do think the Pokémon company did a good job creating new games to entice new generations of players over and over again. Just as others will be nostalgic over Sword and Shield a few years down the road.

Having said all that, I am down for revisiting these games. But I agree with what others have said: please no more of the BDSP remakes. I played through BD when it came out and while I kinda enjoyed it, the whole experience was pretty forgettable in the end. However I do not feel that a full 3D remake would be feasible for these games - or likely for that matter, considering the Diamond and Pearl treatment despite their better sales.

I think that people mostly had an issue with the "chibi style", so maybe some tweaks to the BDSP remakes could yield better results. But I doubt we would get much more than that.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

I hope I don't get completely dragged through the coals for this, but I'll for the life of me never understand the nostalgia for sprites. Games like Pokemon and NeoTWEWY did great jobs modernising the previously sprite based series to current hardware.

The most common complaints about BDSP are that people (internet wise) think it doesn't look good.... but it looks like DP, except with models. Like, they adapted it to the letter. If switching between a chibi styled overworld and more detailed in battle designs sucks with models, then it sucks with sprites too, which is exactly what the originals did. I just can't understand the logic otherwise.

My actual problems with the remakes were gutting the exp curve and the disastrous affection system meaning that no matter what you do, beyond routinely boxing your party for new pokemon, you're grossly overleveled.

 

[Luneth]

I'm ok if they reuse the BDSP route, what I fear the most is what will happen with B2/W2. The ideal situation would be selling W/W2 and B/B2 remakes together as it was the first (and only) time to not be a simply third version and rather full sequels. They shouldn't be ignored like platinum and emerald.

 

[BradenAndEggs]

They should very carefully remake them in HD-2D and try to change them as little as possible.

I'm pretty easy to please though. I loved BDSP and ORAS and Let's Go.

 

[Paxie]

What about sales though? If anything, BDSP selling so well would mean outsourcing the remakes is the smarter choice, rather than just abandoning them.

BDSP has been in the 12-14 million sales bracket since like when, December? I can't see TPC being happy about the game's staying power. In comparison, with an absolute shit ton of things going against it - especially having no holiday sales period, PLA managed to reach a similar level of sales (before having its legs blown off by gen 9) while restoring a lot of faith in the brand

 

[meatbag]

I can't see TPC being happy about the game's staying power

You said it yourself, it sold 12-14 million and it was most probably on the cheaper end of remakes. BDSP hasn't performed as well as PLA, but it absolutely is a strong seller and there's merit in continuing to pursue this model.

 

[Serif]

Maybe a minority opinion but I was fond of the Gen VI look.
3D cel-shaded overworld models that still matched the Sugimori art style, mostly still tile-based and 'top-down' but with many sights that take advantage of a 3D perspective. Naturally they looked better on the 3DS's 240p screen.

This is the only piece of art that comes close to what I'm thinking, though admittingly this looks more like Sword/Shield.

I thought BDSP looked ... okay. But I think if they intend to remain faithful to the grid overworld and the occasional 3D vista like Skyview Bridge and Castelia City, I'd prefer an ORAS look. Assuming they don't go full SwSh style which I don't expect, since BDSP did well.

 

[Paxie]

You said it yourself, it sold 12-14 million and it was most probably on the cheaper end of remakes. BDSP hasn't performed as well as PLA, but it absolutely is a strong seller and there's merit in continuing to pursue this model.

If a game sells great at the start and then completely loses momentum, that does not mean anything good for future projects. It gives the impression that it only lived on initial hype and incredibly poor WoM stalled sales to a point that any follow-up would suffer. They have to notice that the games cast a long shadow over the concept of revisiting generations, considering it has led to people like OP go from being cautiously excited of a gen 5 remake to hoping that GF doesn't bother at all

 

[Weebos]

Never got too into the community, but from my limited knowledge I always gathered that B/W were more mixed with the community at launch and only until gens later they were like "oh actually this was always peak Pokemon".

Still my favorite generation tied with Sword and Shield. I don't think they would just port them which is a shame, Gen 5 is the only one with proper excellent pixel art from that Pokemon era for me, so a 3D remake handled by game freak would be the best case scenario (also cause I want their remixes), I don't like any attempt I have seen of 2D HD, so I rather not unless they show me it can look pleasing to me somehow, I'm kind of indifferent to the chibi style, Legends Unova is a scary thought.

This is definitely true, as a community we didn't recognize what we had until it was gone.

 

[Beanstar40]

bd and sp showed us that if they decide to do it, it will be outsourced to a mobile game developer and made as cheaply as possible. Hope im wrong of course

 

[Sheldon]

Speaking of gen 5 vs nu-pokemon* games, (...) nu-pokemon enjoyers (...) a gen 5 lover (...) the clueless people (...) nu-pokemon simps

If I knew this post was gonna follow, I would have controversied harder on how fugly Black & White's sprite "animations" are.

 

[Linkie3]

Best (realistic) scenario would be using the Let's Go art style, but regular gameplay (like BDSP, but with overworld Pokémon). And also include the full postgame this time.

 

[Aether]

B&W where fine releases, definitely a clean new start after gen 4 fellt like it had to many callbacks and going overboard with literall pokemon god.
Them moving outside of japan was also nice.

new pokemon:
theres the fact that you only have the new ones, some people hated that, in my view this was really brave.
Their designes? like every gen a mixed bag for me, but some really great ones where there:
victini, i like the starters more then the gen 4 starter.
Musharna, Roggenrola line, Woobat, Audino
, Venipede line, Lilligant, Sandile line, Maractus, Crustle, Scraggy line, Yamask, iactually like Garbodor, Zorua line, Minccino line, Emolga, Escavalier, Joltik line, Klink line is on par with Magnemite), lovethe Litwick line, Druddigon, Hydreigon (and the whole line), Larvesta line, and the cover legendaries.

honestly, it was a strong generation for bug pokemon.

With all that sad:
i prefere 2. i played 1 after 2 since it brought me back before playing XY, and then i did go back to BW. Still gret games.
But pokemons just not great in story, and even the BW story was just okay.
But the gameplay of 2 was so great (i like the battles, they are dynamic and fast), the world was full of stuff to do (or simply ignore), every new route i found pokemon i want to keep in my team. heck, i think after an hour i had a team of mons that would be my end team in other generations, but i just kept switching pokemon in and out of it.
The game was one thing first and foremost: FUN. It also fellt challenging in parts. Way overleveling was hard since stronger pokemon did gain less EXP.
I liked the feel of the world, with its desert area next to a huge city, the lush forests, the mountains... sounds generic (all of those are also in other games), but the way they where put into the game. kinda gamey, kinda fun, diverse, contrasting.

Off topic rant that feels extremly subjective (and could be a product of Sw/Sh, Legends color palet and the marketing for gen 9:
Just looking at more modern games i feel they are afraid to exaggerate, and the difference between biomes can blur together.
Botw? a slightly more "realistic" game in how it portrais its world and characters? shure.
Pokemon, with how goofy the internal world logic is at parts, with how every motivation falls appart if you think just for 5 minutes how the world works? yeah, with those games i want more exaggeration in the world design.

Yeah, BW2 and Gen2Remakes are the best entries in this series for me.

 

[maniacmaison]

I love these games.

I was 20 and a Pokemon fan for 10 years already when Black/White came out and, after having lapsed gen 3 and finding gen 4 utterly boring and slow (except the remakes of gen 2 which brought me back I think), I was extremely excited about this one. I remember I downloaded the rom because it release first in Japan and I just couldn't wait. And then I played it again because it instantly became my favourite gen ever. Having only new Pokemon felt extremely refreshing, like reliving the excitement around Gold/Silver (for which I spent a full summer cleaning my mom's car so I could finally buy Silver). The graphics were beautiful too, the music was amazing and the story was really cool and interesting for a Pokemon game.

I've been excited like this about Silver, Black, Moon and Arceus and all of those games matched my expectations.

This truly was a low definition 2D-HD game, so a remake in that style would work wonders. I wouldnt change anything about the game. Even a simple port would work for me as the game itself is snappy and really cute looking. As others have already said, it's a really easy remake because of that.

I think I would be ready to sacrifice this game in the chibi altar if it meant we got a Legends Kyurem where we get to know the backstory of Unova. That would be a dream.

 

[hologram]

Pokemon is obviously an easy kids game where you can use your comically bad favorites like Onix or Farfetch'd to become champion, but the games are absolutely designed around power creep. Generally the Pokemon you find on early routes fully evolve at lower levels and have lower stat totals then Pokemon you find later in the game. Just using some gen 1 examples

You can catch Ratatta route 1 and evolve it into Raticate at level 20. It's fully evolved stat total is 413.

You can't catch Kangaskhan until you get to the Safari Zone in later on in the game. It's stat total is 590.

Now despite this example, I would say Ratatta is still a better overall Pokémon for a play through. It is one of your stronger early game Pokemon thanks to that early evolution, and once it falls off it's still a fairly solid hm mule.

This is such a minor point, because I agree with the central point you're making, but Kangaskhan has a BST of 490, not 590. 590 is for its Mega Evolution

 

[Bowser Sr.]

Black and White were the games that made me stop playing Pokemon games for nearly 10 years, so to me it's a bit weird to see reverence for games that struck me as unexciting, easy and repetitive. Either way, every Pokemon game can be improved by merely giving it a better online framework for the online multiplayer (which is the best way to interact with it's battle system and it's trading features, the "Edge" of those games) so I see no reason to fear a BDSP style remake of them, since they would similarly just be the same game but with modern QoL. Yeah the lack of snappy late-NDS-graphics and sprites will be a shame but Pokemon Legends Arceus is ugly as sin, Scarlet Violet too, Sword Shield too, so it's not like those remakes being handled by Gamefreak themselves would magically make them not-uglier-than-the-original.

 

[Heron]

It's funny, for me DP was the gen that made me stop playing pokemon for almost a decade. Which means B/W is the only pokemon gen I skipped / came to late.

I started with Red/Blue on release, got the pokemon bug totally. Was never more hyped for a game than G/S, which delivered in spades. I got older, late high school, wasn't playing as many games because of real life and "uncool" vibe. So Ruby/Sapphire didn't do it for me. Tried Diamond Pearl in uni and really hated them because of the slow gameplay and pacing and stupid touch screen usage.

So I was OUT on pokemon by Black / White. No interest. I heard they were good - and they did the one thing I wanted which was an all-new pokedex before the post-game, but whatever. Skipped them. Done with the series.

But years later when I got a 3ds I got XY on a whim and loved it. It had been years since I'd played pokemon, and for all its flaws XY had great gamefeel and the thrill of seeing all the original pokemon from my late childhood in 3d. Played ORAS in time, (still didn't like Hoenn!) and then Sun/Moon.

So it wasn't until then that I went back to Black / White. And I've got to be honest, I thought it was immediately obvious that all those people who say they're the best pokemon games are totally correct. I loved them to bits. Not nostalgia in the slightest. They're just tight, well designed RPGs. Miles ahead of the other sprite-based games, and don't suffer from a lot of the issues of the 3d games. Just totally in that goldilocks zone.

So yeah, after playing the BD remakes I can see why you'd be worried. I echo other posters in here - if there was ever a time to experiment with a 2D-HD effort, this is it.

 

[Aether]

Black and White were the games that made me stop playing Pokemon games for nearly 10 years, so to me it's a bit weird to see reverence for games that struck me as unexciting, easy and repetitive. Either way, every Pokemon game can be improved by merely giving it a better online framework for the online multiplayer (which is the best way to interact with it's battle system and it's trading features, the "Edge" of those games) so I see no reason to fear a BDSP style remake of them, since they would similarly just be the same game but with modern QoL. Yeah the lack of snappy late-NDS-graphics and sprites will be a shame but Pokemon Legends Arceus is ugly as sin, Scarlet Violet too, Sword Shield too, so it's not like those remakes being handled by Gamefreak themselves would magically make them not-uglier-than-the-original.

... i likethe artstyle of BW...

yeah, Gen 3 made me feel like im done with pokemon, and only coming back with BW2 because of the XY anouncement... im probably biased. I did try gen 4, found it ugly in the character design/colors/vibe department, did not like many of the new evos, and most of all: it fellt like shit to play. one of my biggest gripes with the gen 2 remakes (except the weird dificulty curve around the 8th gym) is the still rather slow battle system.

Generally, just from a design/color palet/vibe perspective im like:
Gen 1 / Gen 2 / Gen 5 > Gen 6 > Gen 8 > (Gen 3 > Gen 4 ) > Gen 7, Gen 9

Mind you, thats just goign by marketing material, and gen 9 could move slightly up or down. Gen 3 or 4...it depends on the day.

Gen 1 , next to it being so fresh, also feels the "dirtiest", the least sanitized, gene manipulation, dead pokemon, etc.
The focus on the tech aspect is also interesting. Gen 2 has the focus on the mystical, and did well to contrast that.

Gen 7: eh, did not like the tropical theme to much, and many of the designs just wherent my jam.
Gen 6: love the architecture, colors, legendaries, the character designes...

 

[Bowser Sr.]

... i likethe artstyle of BW...

'pokemon'

Generally, just from a design/color palet/vibe perspective im like:
Gen 1 / Gen 2 / Gen 5 > Gen 6 > Gen 8 > (Gen 3 > Gen 4 ) > Gen 7, Gen 9

Mind you, thats just goign by marketing material, and gen 9 could move slightly up or down. Gen 3 or 4...it depends on the day.

'pokemon'

The focus on the tech aspect is also interesting. Gen 2 has the focus on the mystical, and did well to contrast that.

Gen 7: eh, did not like the tropical theme to much, and many of the designs just wherent my jam.
Gen 6: love the architecture, colors, legendaries, the character designes...

I like the art style of BW too, I am making fun of the art style of the DP remakes that the theoretical BW remakes made by ILCA might resemble, not of the original BW. Frankly the best looking Pokemon game on the Switch is probably still Let's Go, which is still not great and has some janky presentation choices there and there, so it looks like console Pokemon games are just cursed to be ugly by some kind of babylonian demon.

 

[Aether]

I like the art style of BW too, I am making fun of the art style of the DP remakes that the theoretical BW remakes made by ILCA might resemble, not of the original BW. Frankly the best looking Pokemon game on the Switch is probably still Let's Go, which is still not great and has some janky presentation choices there and there, so it looks like console Pokemon games are just cursed to be ugly by some kind of babylonian demon.

Oh yeah, the remake is just...weird.

Im not shure about lets go. SW/SH has moment where its the best looking pokemon game, but then there are moments where its kind of a joke. LG is probably the most consistent pokemon game in the Switch... and im not shure how i feel about that, since im not a fan of it.

 

[Apopheniac]

Pokemon is obviously an easy kids game where you can use your comically bad favorites like Onix or Farfetch'd to become champion, but the games are absolutely designed around power creep. Generally the Pokemon you find on early routes fully evolve at lower levels and have lower stat totals then Pokemon you find later in the game. Just using some gen 1 examples

You can catch Ratatta route 1 and evolve it into Raticate at level 20. It's fully evolved stat total is 413.

You can't catch Kangaskhan until you get to the Safari Zone in later on in the game. It's stat total is 490.

Now despite this example, I would say Ratatta is still a better overall Pokémon for a play through. It is one of your stronger early game Pokemon thanks to that early evolution, and once it falls off it's still a fairly solid hm mule.

It's a choice that BW and the GB games adhere to more strictly than other games in the series. RS and DP have early game bug and rodent archetypes, but they also have plenty of species available before the first Gym that are usable throughout the game. The only Pokémon before BW's first gym that could be conceivably taken to the end of the game, aside from the starters, is Lillipup.

Compared to the GB games, BW has the benefit of using the EV system introduced in RS instead of stat exp. to cap how strong early-game Pokémon will get. However, the new Exp. scaling system and unbreakable TMs also help encourage this type of playstyle. Scaling Exp. means it's easier to train up lower-leveled wild Pokémon encountered later, and with unbreakable TMs, the player doesn't have to worry about wasting valuable moves on Pokémon that won't stick around long-term.

 

[meatbag]

If a game sells great at the start and then completely loses momentum, that does not mean anything good for future projects

Most JRPGs have frontloaded sales and they do just fine.

Like, I somewhat understand your point, but there's no way you can tell me that TPC wouldn't greenlight remakes of B/W. It just makes financial sense. Also, you are assuming that the B/W remakes wouldn't get more quality care than BDSP.

They have to notice that the games cast a long shadow over the concept of revisiting generations, considering it has led to people like OP go from being cautiously excited of a gen 5 remake to hoping that GF doesn't bother at all

If people love S/V a ton, that's going to be their frame of reference, not BDSP.

 

[Weebos]

Most JRPGs have frontloaded sales and they do just fine.

Like, I somewhat understand your point, but there's no way you can tell me that TPC wouldn't greenlight remakes of B/W. It just makes financial sense. Also, you are assuming that the B/W remakes wouldn't get more quality care than BDSP.


If people love S/V a ton, that's going to be their frame of reference, not BDSP.

It's also important to note that BDSP had its legs chopped off by PLA. I think the game sold surprisingly well considering all the circumstances around it. I would not be surprised at all if the Pokemon Company considers the outsourcing experiment a big success and continues to do it with remakes, despite player complaints.

 

[Illucio]

I'm in the same boat. I just know they are going to remake the BW1 which were extremely flawed games, ignore any BW2 remake and just move on with some half-baked remake.

My idea take on Gen 5 remakes would be to make Black & White 3 and give us the Kyruem fused with both dragons to become the whole dragon which they've been hinting at forever now.
And if they made a Legends-like game for Gen 5, have it set during the roaring 20's or make it the cowboy era of American history or something periodic and fun like that.
If they did another BDSP with some half baked remake that's supposed to be 1:1, but also not be 1:1 by adding a ton of new stuff and having ILCA work on it. I'm going to be upset again.

There was significant backlash to Gen 5 Pokémon designs, particularly from the genwunner camp, but it was hardly universal.

I'm one of the biggest Gen 5 stan's you'll ever meet. And let me tell you Gen 5 had some of the worst Pokemon designs then any other generation in both quantity and quality. But then again, when the whole point of mons were to copy gen 1 and to have pokemon fill "rodent role" or "fighter role" you can see why we ended up with what we got.

 

[Pokemaniac]

I hope I don't get completely dragged through the coals for this, but I'll for the life of me never understand the nostalgia for sprites. Games like Pokemon and NeoTWEWY did great jobs modernising the previously sprite based series to current hardware.

The most common complaints about BDSP are that people (internet wise) think it doesn't look good.... but it looks like DP, except with models. Like, they adapted it to the letter. If switching between a chibi styled overworld and more detailed in battle designs sucks with models, then it sucks with sprites too, which is exactly what the originals did. I just can't understand the logic otherwise.

My actual problems with the remakes were gutting the exp curve and the disastrous affection system meaning that no matter what you do, beyond routinely boxing your party for new pokemon, you're grossly overleveled.

There's quite a lot more nuance to art style than just "chibi overwold and detailed battles". BDSP isn't even a particularly faithful translation of the DP art style to full 3D. It looks very different, and typically not in a good way.

 

[niconiconick64]

If I knew this post was gonna follow, I would have controversied harder on how fugly Black & White's sprite "animations" are.

Compared to what? the nearly static sprites of previous gens that are animated for like a 2-3 frame interval before freezing up until fainting?
Or the unsaturated and barely animated 3d models?

Post

I should've prefaced that post by making it clear what I want from a gen 5 remake first, than talking about what I hate about newer gens and the people that defend them.
And yes, these kind of people are not only present here in this very thread, but also are very vocal in social media like youtube and twitter from my experience.

I also forgot to mention how what GF is facing is a problem of scope. And I don't know where you got that ~3 year number considering for instance, that between the release dates of USUM to SWSH was only a 1 year and 11 months period. Even IF you consider that they might have just had USUM done a couple months before release, that would still be about 2 years and ~3 months. And considering they probably had SWSH ready before release, that makes it the number more rounded down towards a mere 2 years of development time.

Maybe a minority opinion but I was fond of the Gen VI look.
3D cel-shaded overworld models that still matched the Sugimori art style, mostly still tile-based and 'top-down' but with many sights that take advantage of a 3D perspective. Naturally they looked better on the 3DS's 240p screen.

This is the only piece of art that comes close to what I'm thinking, though admittingly this looks more like Sword/Shield.

I thought BDSP looked ... okay. But I think if they intend to remain faithful to the grid overworld and the occasional 3D vista like Skyview Bridge and Castelia City, I'd prefer an ORAS look. Assuming they don't go full SwSh style which I don't expect, since BDSP did well.

Pic #2 looks fine. I wouldn't mind chibi (in the overworld) as long as it was something reminiscent of ORAS which I enjoyed despite it's flaws. I just think in-battle, a taller, more detailed 3d model akin to SM/USUM/SWSH would be better.

 

[niconiconick64]

There's quite a lot more nuance to art style than just "chibi overwold and detailed battles". BDSP isn't even a particularly faithful translation of the DP art style to full 3D. It looks very different, and typically not in a good way.

cynthia's 3d model, lmao

 

[Serif]

Pic #2 looks fine. I wouldn't mind chibi (in the overworld) as long as it was something reminiscent of ORAS which I enjoyed despite it's flaws. I just think in-battle, a taller, more detailed 3d model akin to SM/USUM/SWSH would be better.

Found some fan work closer to my pipe dream.

I'm imagining a seamless 3D overworld and battles with full models.

 

[Bowser Sr.]

Compared to what? the nearly static sprites of previous gens that are animated for like a 2-3 frame interval before freezing up until fainting?
Or the unsaturated and barely animated 3d models?

"Barely animated 3d models" while talking up BW's approach, also known as "Cardboard Cut Out of Blastoise Whose Limbs Are Pixelating Gruesomely As They Tween Around" is just a bit hilarious to see.

 

[MarcelRguez]

Found some fan work closer to my pipe dream.

I'm imagining a seamless 3D overworld and battles with full models.

bring back character outlines

 

[BassForever]

This is such a minor point, because I agree with the central point you're making, but Kangaskhan has a BST of 490, not 590. 590 is for its Mega Evolution

Got typo'd

 

[MondoMega]

And I don't know where you got that ~3 year number considering for instance, that between the release dates of USUM to SWSH was only a 1 year and 11 months period. Even IF you consider that they might have just had USUM done a couple months before release, that would still be about 2 years and ~3 months. And considering they probably had SWSH ready before release, that makes it the number more rounded down towards a mere 2 years of development time.

The source is right there; the slide from Game Freak's CEDEC 2022 presentation.

Sword and Shield entered the conceptual phase shortly after Sun and Moon launched, not Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon (that project was passed off to younger staff, a smaller team). Full scale production was closer to two years as this interview mentions, but overall production remains three years. To reitterate with a different example; they didn't only start working on X and Y after Black 2 and White 2, it was in development in 2010, after Black and White, and again here Masuda describes that production as taking three years.

 

[james]

im excited for the remakes because it might force the "it has an amazing story!!' hold outs to reevaluate and realize that the entire games narrative is incoherent nonsense that trips over whatever themes it think its trying to convey.

banger games otherwise tho

 

[SammyJ9]

im excited for the remakes because it might force the "it has an amazing story!!' hold outs to reevaluate and realize that the entire games narrative is incoherent nonsense that trips over whatever themes it think its trying to convey.

banger games otherwise tho

It has been a while, but when I say I like the story, mostly what I mean is I like the twist that happens at the Pokemon League, and then having the actual Champion fight be post-game-ish. That's... about it, I honestly don't remember much else about the story.

 

[niconiconick64]

"Barely animated 3d models" while talking up BW's approach, also known as "Cardboard Cut Out of Blastoise Whose Limbs Are Pixelating Gruesomely As They Tween Around" is just a bit hilarious to see.

I could name multiple gen v sprites that aren't animated through just tweening and actually have more going on than you think. Flying pokemon alone are an example but here: https://www.pokencyclopedia.info/en/index.php?id=sprites/gen5/ani_black-white
go look for yourself.

• the way pikachu opens his mouth and moves his arms
• literally every pokemon with wings
• moltres' flames
• kecleon's tongue*

etc...
*which was completely drained out of it's soul in xy, he just stands there now, barely even moving. same goes for many of the flying pokemon and even non-flying ones.
But sure, keep telling yourself that "it's just tweening" and that 3d models look better.

Also, like I said: I'd rather take 2d sprites than some boringly undersaturated blastoise that is barely even animated. And yes, I said it: BARELY. Like, have you ever seen pokken's animations? pokemon colosseum? battle revolution? all of these SHIT on entirely animation-wise on any gen 6+ game.

 

[Leo]

There's quite a lot more nuance to art style than just "chibi overwold and detailed battles". BDSP isn't even a particularly faithful translation of the DP art style to full 3D. It looks very different, and typically not in a good way.

Yeah, people act like it was badly received because it's "chibi" like the style could be inherently bad or good completely disregarding execution.

BDSP are ugly because it's tasteless and poorly executed, not because it's chibi.

 

[Bowser Sr.]

I could name multiple gen v sprites that aren't animated through just tweening and actually have more going on than you think. Flying pokemon alone are an example but here: https://www.pokencyclopedia.info/en/index.php?id=sprites/gen5/ani_black-white
go look for yourself.

• the way pikachu opens his mouth and moves his arms
• literally every pokemon with wings

• 'pokemon'

• 'pokemon'

• 'pokemon'

• 'pokemon'

• 'pokemon'

• 'pokemon'

• 'pokemon'

• 'pokemon'

• 'pokemon'

• 'pokemon'

• 'pokemon'

• 'pokemon'

• 'pokemon'

• 'pokemon'

• 'pokemon'

• 'pokemon'

• moltres' flames
• kecleon's tongue*

etc...

'pokemon'

But sure, keep telling yourself that "it's just tweening" and that 3d models look better.

'pokemon'

"But sure, keep telling yourself that it's just tweening" after linking me an entire page with countless examples that prove me right is, again, a bit hilarious. Absolutely funny that Pikachu opening his mouth and flipping its arm is PEAK ANIMATION while Pikachu having physical attack, special attack, damage, sleeping, eating, happy, sad, walking, running and more animations is "barely animated" (and this is not getting into indirect visual improvements that 3D models allowed in battle, like dynamic camera movement and animated trainers in-battle) because... a different game had better animations? Sounds like BW loses this comparison too, due to not having any outside of monsters vibrating and tweening in place, which is a thing that various other RPGs on the GBA and NDS had already managed to include.
You'd rather take the 2d sprites anyday? Why, I'd insist that you take 'em keep 'em.