Fun Club How deep is the rot?

[Deleted member 540]

EDIT: The post below is kinda dumb. I made it because I had perceived a negative shift in mood here at Famiboards as well as elsewhere and I wondered about what such a negative shift means to sustainability of the Nintendo brand. I realise now that my perception was wrong, which renders the whole thing a pointless exercise in begging the question.

Moreover, I understand that the post appears evocative of certain attitudes from the past that people here had wanted to leave behind. I thought that this unfortunate regression was what was happening, but ironically, in querying that, ended up being the worst offender. I'm sorry to everyone for being the one to drop the big, smelly one in the room. I also regret that this gave people the wrong impression of my attitudes and intentions.

I hope Famiboards continues to be a place that prioritises enjoying gaming over all the other nonsense.

_____________

There has been a shift of late. Nintendo are now viewed as bad.

Some specific things may be viewed as good, but overall, Nintendo are viewed as bad. They are compared to their peers, the senior prefect and the captain of the rugby team building themselves from strength to strength (Oxbridge applicants of course), as the troubled delinquent. We've seen influencers turn against them, we've seen posters here and elsewhere turn against them. Even when the tone of discourse here is jolly, if Nintendo features at all, it is to be the butt of jokes.

The issues are well known: lacklustre products (with isolated exceptions), poor services, anti-consumer (a rare genuine use of the term this time) refund policies, awkward engagement, outdated hardware.

Right now, the market data is strong. They're dominating charts and breaking sales records but is this all just bread and circuses? We've seen dramatic reversals of fortune before brought about by building great success on a foundation of sand. Nintendo plummeted after the Wii/DS era by depending on the fickle interest of the "casuals". We all thought they were building more solid foundations this time with the broader masses buying the likes of Mario Kart, Animal Crossing and Ring Fit Adventure (not cinematic AAAs sure, but more conventional games). But is that enough to sustain their success this time with their base growing so discontent?

The Switch's unique selling point is about to become less unique. It's not just the Steam Deck. We're hearing rumours of Microsoft and Sony looking into their own portability efforts. Sure this is a vindication for the Switch as an innovator, but the market doesn't do gratitude. With a base becoming disaffected and withering away, the momentum Nintendo have, barring some new disruptor, could be lost as the people who generate the buzz that allows their stuff to break out beyond the core gaming audience dissolves.

And it is possible that the market sees it that way. Nintendo's stock price has dropped nearly a quarter over the past year despite the great sales figures. Maybe they too worry that beneath the jade and gold exterior, a rot has set in at Nintendo that threatens the sustainability of their business as the juggernaut it is.

This is not intended to read as a console war type thing. I know next to nothing about PlayStation and Xbox, only the vibes I pick up here. It's only the last few years I've been seriously doing Nintendo and I've been really enjoying it so the souring of the discourse makes me feel like it's all going to start crumbling soon. The prospect of a gyro-less future seems bleak to me. (Though I suppose if that bounces me off the hobby, that is probably not a bad thing in the end.)

Thank you for reading this week's Internet mellowdrama.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

You weren't kidding about melodrama.

There's no reason to think basically anything you posted, Nintendo is in the strongest position it's ever been in, arguably since before the PlayStation existed, but at bare minimum since the absurd peaks of the Wii and DS.

Steam deck won't cause even an observable dip in Switches performance, and neither of Microsoft or Sony are thinking about handheld endeavours, I don't know where you picked that up, but it stretches the definition of rumour, that much is certain.

 

[JazzPotatoes]

The Switch's unique selling point is about to become less unique. It's not just the Steam Deck. We're hearing rumours of Microsoft and Sony looking into their own portability efforts.

Are we?

Microsoft has xCloud, but that's not the same thing. It's a streaming app reliant on a strong 5G connection.

Sony, as far as I'm aware, has not hinted at a single gosh darn thing to say they're going back into portables.

 

[fourfourfun]

We're hearing rumours of Microsoft and Sony looking into their own portability efforts.

This one is new to me, I've not picked up on this! I would have thought Sony - at least - would have noped out of the portable world, and I'd expect to see some sort of streaming hardware from Microsoft over a handheld.

SteamDeck isn't going to hit on Switch at all. It will struggle to have anywhere near the same penetration. I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up in the "chasing pack" category with Stadia.

For one, it is too damn big - around the size of a Series S. Another is that it is also more centred around portable rather than hybrid. Yeah, it can dock, but it doesn't feel like a central piece of design (no detachable controllers). And the third is that its market is for the PC gamer who wants something portable that isn't a GPD Win. It does bring some interesting things to market - straightforward UI, Proton, attempting to get save states a thing - but it isn't going to tap into Family Computer market that Nintendo have.

The discourse has, of recent, turned to Nintendo needing to quickly pivot to a power platform - after everybody assumed a high power revision was imminent - but seemingly not remembering that this was a console that we once were surprised to see the likes of Doom hit. It simply wasn't expected. Switch is punching above its weight but the demand is - like when the Wii was on top - that it matches the other consoles on power. Which it will never do, because handheld.

 

[Deleted member 540]

You weren't kidding about melodrama.

Indeed. Feel free to call me a chump and a bad speller.

There's no reason to think basically anything you posted, Nintendo is in the strongest position it's ever been in, arguably since before the PlayStation existed, but at bare minimum since the absurd peaks of the Wii and DS.

Nintendo are definitely strong now. But with the discourse turning, I wonder about the future.

Steam deck won't cause even an observable dip in Switches performance, and neither of Microsoft or Sony are thinking about handheld endeavours, I don't know where you picked that up, but it stretches the definition of rumour, that much is certain.

I saw something about a portable streaming service for Microsoft and done kind of controller attachment thing for mobile for Sony.

 

[TurtleRock]

Good grief. In what world is Nintendo viewed as bad outside of the console war gaming circle jerk or reactionaries on reddit/twitter.

The vast majority of consumers are content with their gaming purchase. Stock prices have nothing to do with market performance because if it did, it would be a lot higher. We're living in an era were memers can pump up gamestop's stock to absurd levels. Stock price isn't a metric of success.

Lackluster product? If this were true they wouldn't have sold over 80 million units. They've released generation defining games on the Switch platform. The most well regarded game in the last ten years literally launched with the system.

Nintendo's biggest selling point has been and always will be their exclusive games. The competition can put every third party game under the sun on Gamepass or Sonypass and people will still buy Nintendo consoles for Nintendo games. The reach and power of Mario rivals that of Mickey Mouse. Pokemon gets backlash from its hardcore fanbase and yet Brilliant Diamond/Shiny Pearl are going to outsell Sword and Shield at this rate. The fact of the matter is that the internet, twitter, reddit, reactionaries on youtube, are not a reflection of reality. They are merely a small slice of the total market. You talk about "the base being discontent" and the facts literally do not back that up. If there was widespread discontent like you claim there is they wouldn't be selling well.

Look no further than WiiU's performance to see what true discontent looks like. Questionable hardware and a dearth of releases created real discontent which led to historically poor sales.

 

[Deleted member 2]

The Steam Deck is just not the competitor to the Switch you think it is

Nintendo is viewed as "bad" in the obsessed circles on the internet. No, this outrage culture is not going to "take down Nintendo" or whatev

 

[JazzPotatoes]

Nintendo are definitely strong now. But with the discourse turning, I wonder about the future.

Is this about the level of criticism for N64 games on the Switch?

People are less than thrilled about the current plans for N64 games. That is not the same thing as discourse around the entire Switch turning.

 

[enempi]

I don’t think a lot of this really new. People have been saying Nintendo online infrastructure is unacceptable and that the hardware is terrible and underpowered since the DS days, and yet they have sold hundreds of millions of devices since then. People have always complained Nintendo games are too expensive and yet they sell gangbusters. It has always been trendy in online spaces to say “actually I think Nintendo is bad”. None of this is new.

Nintendo has a very specific market and brand which has been very successful for them. There are some vocal people in online spaces who don’t like it and prefer to play on expensive gaming PCs or prefer to play games with cutting edge graphics. That’s fine, but’s it’s a niche, and it doesn’t mean Nintendo is in trouble. If the PSP couldn’t even dent to DS then I find it hard to believe that the Steam Deck is going to hurt the Switch at all. Most people will not even be aware this product exists or what Steam even is.

Perspective is important. ResetEra has about 55k registered users. A place like r/gaming has about 30M subscribers. The Switch has sold nearly 100M units. By a large margin most people playing video games are not plugged into the online video game discussion machine.

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

Give it a few years and people will romanticize this era as well just like they're doing with Iwata's tenure.

 

[SuperFakerBros]

There's plenty to criticize with how Nintendo handles online or their subscriptions as well as Pokémon in general, to be sure, but I don't think that matters as much for most folk as all of the rest of the big exclusives Nintendo puts out. At the end of the day, that's what they're there for. That being said, they should definitely not get complacent, like they did with the Wii. Properly investing in 1st party studios and, hopefully, their services would go a long way as well as making games that they ordinarily don't and would appeal to folk whom may not be convinced by the likes of Mario and Zelda alone

 

[SuperFakerBros]

This one is new to me, I've not picked up on this! I would have thought Sony - at least - would have noped out of the portable world, and I'd expect to see some sort of streaming hardware from Microsoft over a handheld.

That's just regarding streaming services, which isn't quite the same as an actual portable device

 

[Abzeronow]

Nintendo rules the handheld scene and Sony isn't going to try again with a PSP3 or whatever. Steam Deck is a portable PC not a console, there isn't as much overlap that you think (it's also very big for a handheld device).

 

[TurtleRock]

I don’t think a lot of this really new. People have been saying Nintendo online infrastructure is unacceptable and that the hardware is terrible and underpowered since the DS days, and yet they have sold hundreds of millions of devices since then. People have always complained Nintendo games are too expensive and yet they sell gangbusters. It has always been trendy in online spaces to say “actually I think Nintendo is bad”. None of this is new.

Nintendo has a very specific market and brand which has been very successful for them. There are some vocal people in online spaces who don’t like it and prefer to play on expensive gaming PCs or prefer to play games with cutting edge graphics. That’s fine, but’s it’s a niche, and it doesn’t mean Nintendo is in trouble. If the PSP couldn’t even dent to DS then I find it hard to believe that the Steam Deck is going to hurt the Switch at all. Most people will not even be aware this product exists or what Steam even is.

Perspective is important. ResetEra has about 55k registered users. A place like r/gaming has about 30M subscribers. The Switch has sold nearly 100M units. By a large margin most people playing video games are not plugged into the online video game discussion machine.

I really think a lot of people who are constantly plugged into the online gaming discourse machine need to simply.... log off. Go out and interact with people that play games a lot more casually. You'll learn a ton of why Nintendo is so successful. There's a reason why the joke about Era, Reddit, etc. is that it's filled with people who don't actually play games as much as they like to talk about them.

I have a ton of casual gaming friends with Switches and they all enjoy the product. They own about 4-5 games and for them there isn't a need to constantly buy stuff every few weeks. I have a friend who got a Switch at launch and he still hasn't finished Zelda! It's because he doesn't have the time to game but he thinks Zelda is the best game he's ever played! I have a friend who has only bought the Mario Party games. I have another friend that has 800 hours in Animal Crossing and like 10 hours in Mario Kart. I have another friend who only plays Smash with me online and that is the only time he fires up the Switch. All of them 100% satisfied with the console and Nintendo's services.

 

[Ramune]

It's only the last few years I've been seriously doing Nintendo and I've been really enjoying it so the souring of the discourse makes me feel like it's all going to start crumbling soon.

Apologies if this is a bit I'm missing, but sour discourse around Nintendo from everyone including their fans is basically a constant and not necessarily a harbinger of anything. I've been playing on their consoles since the SNES and love their output in general and even I love a good whinge or have assumed certain consoles or eras were doomed because they weren't immediately to my liking (and they usually ended up being things I actually loved, funny that). If you're seeing influencers turn against anyone, in most cases it's because negativity generates more traffic and is easy to produce (as is unflinching adoration, hence why balanced voices are rare and fantastic to hear). If you're seeing gamers themselves turn against anyone, it's usually tribal or fickle - I have friends who flipflop between hating and loving Nintendo and Sony every other week depending on what's been announced. A lot of people have slagged off Nintendo's output the entirety of the Switch's life so far, and a lot of people have criticised NSO, the hardware, the customer service, the joycon drift. That's not to say there aren't problems - often the criticism is valid - but it's always been there and for better or worse Nintendo have soldiered on.

I think people tend to overestimate how involved in discourse the 'casual' audience is and underestimate how much of the audience they make up, as well as how forgiving they are. And I think a lot of people give off the impression they're turning their backs on a company when actually they're still buying and playing their products, they're just complaining. It's funny when those loud negative voices mischaracterise people who disagree with them as demanding they "stop questioning, consume product", because in a lot of cases they are continuing to consume the product and their discourse is going out into the void.

And Sony already released a great piece of handheld hardware! Then failed to support it and condemned it further with expensive proprietary memory cards that needed to be swapped or reformatted to change accounts. Unless something has drastically changed, I don't see them putting much effort into the handheld market even if they dip into it again. At most I could see them building on streaming and remote play via mobile devices.

 

[Deleted member 540]

Good grief. In what world is Nintendo viewed as bad outside of the console war gaming circle jerk or reactionaries on reddit/twitter.

Well... um... here. And this is a Nintendo fansite. Recent days there's been some "I'm done with Nintendo" type rants.

Lackluster product? If this were true they wouldn't have sold over 80 million units. They've released generation defining games on the Switch platform. The most well regarded game in the last ten years literally launched with the system.

I should have been clearer that I was talking about recently, ie the last year. Pokemon is getting it in the neck. Mario Golf seemed to attract some criticism. And of course N64-NSO.

Nintendo's biggest selling point has been and always will be their exclusive games. The competition can put every third party game under the sun on Gamepass or Sonypass and people will still buy Nintendo consoles for Nintendo games. The reach and power of Mario rivals that of Mickey Mouse. Pokemon gets backlash from its hardcore fanbase and yet Brilliant Diamond/Shiny Pearl are going to outsell Sword and Shield at this rate. The fact of the matter is that the internet, twitter, reddit, reactionaries on youtube, are not a reflection of reality. They are merely a small slice of the total market. You talk about "the base being discontent" and the facts literally do not back that up. If there was widespread discontent like you claim there is they wouldn't be selling well.

True. But, the base's tendency to be discerning with their purchases lags behind their attitude. Look at N64. People threw their money at Nintendo for a product that they knew they should have been circumspect (apart from the visual bugs, every other complaint about N64 should have been anticipated) about only for them to get outraged when what they expected to happen actually happened, eg the dripfeed scandal of the last weekend. This seems to have broken a few people here with regards to their future receptiveness to Nintendo products.

Look no further than WiiU's performance to see what true discontent looks like. Questionable hardware and a dearth of releases created real discontent which led to historically poor sales.

We're definitely not there yet. But there are seeds. The WiiU was more base pleasing in terms of features (Miiverse etc), better access to classic content (we see how the current poor showing is considered "disrespectful") and the online was free so didn't get opprobrium.

It just seems a lot of people are losing patience.

 

[39Subrosia]

Most of the people whining incessantly about Nintendo now are the same ones who were saying the Switch was doomed and Nintendo was out of touch before it launched. There's a lot to dislike about the Switch era, and Nintendo shouldn't ignore the valid issues their fans have, but people who have always taken any chance to dunk on the company absolutely do not represent the majority.

 

[TurtleRock]

True. But, the base's tendency to be discerning with their purchases lags behind their attitude. Look at N64. People threw their money at Nintendo for a product that they knew they should have been circumspect (apart from the visual bugs, every other complaint about N64 should have been anticipated) about only for them to get outraged when what they expected to happen actually happened, eg the dripfeed scandal of the last weekend. This seems to have broken a few people here with regards to their future receptiveness to Nintendo products.

The "base" that you keep referring to is not the capital G gamer that constantly whines on forums. I think that's the biggest misconception that you are attached to right now. Like I said in my post, and in another post on here, Nintendo's base is the more casual consumer who buys maybe 2-3 games a year. There is no discontent there, because if there was, the Switch wouldn't have broken sales records again this year despite all the "controversies."

Well... um... here. And this is a Nintendo fansite. Recent days there's been some "I'm done with Nintendo" type rants.

Lol you shouldn't take any of those rants seriously. Troll comments at worst. People that need to log off and chill out at best.

I should have been clearer that I was talking about recently, ie the last year. Pokemon is getting it in the neck. Mario Golf seemed to attract some criticism. And of course N64-NSO.

Add that Switch OLED wasn't the mythical switch pro to the list. And literally none of those controversies affected them. Pokemon is breaking sales records. Golf got a ton of updates and people are content. Switch OLED is sold out everywhere...

We're definitely not there yet. But there are seeds. The WiiU was more base pleasing in terms of features (Miiverse etc), better access to classic content (we see how the current poor showing is considered "disrespectful") and the online was free so didn't get opprobrium.

WiiU had real problems and I would argue that it was not base pleasing at all. The launch was pitiful. Barely any Nintendo games and all the third party games were ports of PS3/360 games that released months late and in some cases ran worse. Miiverse was not a system selling feature.

Better access to classic content? Nintendo re-started the drip feed, made you pay to "upgrade" your games from Wii VC, and the emulation was magnitudes worse. Say what you will about NSO but it's a lot more cost efficient to subscribe to NSO than it was to pay for all those VC games...

And again, I don't think you understand who Nintendo's base actually is. The WiiU was expensive at launch, lacked Nintendo games, and for many people, they didn't even know it was a new console. All of those things are what more casual consumers care about not the forum dwelling always online forum posters.

 

[Deleted member 2]

Here's a question for OP, @Glom - what is this "rot" you're talking about?

 

[Deleted member 540]

The "base" that you keep referring to is not the capital G gamer that constantly whines on forums. I think that's the biggest misconception that you are attached to right now. Like I said in my post, and in another post on here, Nintendo's base is the more casual consumer who buys maybe 2-3 games a year. There is no discontent there, because if there was, the Switch wouldn't have broken sales records again this year despite all the "controversies."


Lol you shouldn't take any of those rants seriously. Troll comments at worst. People that need to log off and chill out at best.


Add that Switch OLED wasn't the mythical switch pro to the list. And literally none of those controversies affected them. Pokemon is breaking sales records. Golf got a ton of updates and people are content. Switch OLED is sold out everywhere...

WiiU had real problems and I would argue that it was not base pleasing at all. The launch was pitiful. Barely any Nintendo games and all the third party games were ports of PS3/360 games that released months late and in some cases ran worse. Miiverse was not a system selling feature.

Better access to classic content? Nintendo re-started the drip feed, made you pay to "upgrade" your games from Wii VC, and the emulation was magnitudes worse. Say what you will about NSO but it's a lot more cost efficient to subscribe to NSO than it was to pay for all those VC games...

And again, I don't think you understand who Nintendo's base actually is. The WiiU was expensive at launch, lacked Nintendo games, and for many people, they didn't even know it was a new console. All of those things are what more casual consumers care about not the forum dwelling always online forum posters.

I accept your admonishment and apologise for wasting your time.

I get a little carried away with reactions sometimes... or all the time. It's not just games.

 

[Ramune]

Well... um... here. And this is a Nintendo fansite. Recent days there's been some "I'm done with Nintendo" type rants.

Fansites tend to generate that sort of passion though. I used to lurk on pro wrestling boards and people complained a lot, in a lot of cases because they were what are known as 'smarks' ("smart marks", i.e. they consider themselves clued in on how everything works behind the scenes and pay more attention beyond the shows themselves). The same thing happens here and elsewhere - a lot of posters consider themselves very well-informed or even experts, which leads to more passionate criticism and raised expectations (since we know what's best!). There's also lots of speculation, and teases from insiders, and "open secrets", etc. It's a big level of investment that leads to a lot of half-hearted "I'm done" when the returns don't match up.

Look at Pokemon. A lot of people complain every entry and have done since Gen 5 or 6, but many of them buy the games. And of the ones that stopped buying the games, many still talk about them. And even without those sales, the games sell well, quickly, and with legs. That's not me saying their criticisms aren't valid, or that it doesn't matter if they feel the games aren't for them anymore, but it does point towards a certain level of 'too big to fail' and a growth that outpaces any lost fans (again, for better or worse). Same with ACNH - old fans have complained plenty about missing features (and indeed where the hell is puzzle league??), or the series moving away from its roots in various ways, and ultimately that isn't hurting Nintendo's bottom line or the way the games are received by the wider public.

I see what you're saying about how poor fortune could always be on the cards and we've seen big slumps before, but I don't think they're hurtling towards one currently.

Edit: I should also add, I notice a lot of people making light jabs and womp womp jokes about Nintendo (and other things we're fans of) here, and I do it a ton. It's not usually very serious, it's partly a defence mechanism because we've been through the ups and downs of the self-administered hype-disappointment cycle before and it's healthy to keep expectations in check. But I will be picketing if new Fire Emblem isn't announced soon.

 

[Yavga]

I grew up with Nintendo around the Gameboy, I rented NES/SNES games during the weekends and I hold a lot of good memories about that time. The biggest nostalgia I have is from around the N64 and Gba for me and I have to acknowledge that as a kid Nintendo was pure magic.

When growing up I got less invested into games and every now and then I hear myself say Nintendo got worse over time but in reality they're evolving and growing/adjusting very, very well. So it's just my nostalgia I continue to persue with everything else being ignored. (That was then)

Nintendo now is in a great place, and like always they will think of something new for the next generation, they've even already said so. Nintendo is always attempting something new like they always have and they do not necessarily look at the competition for their ideas.

Their lineup is great and they are still making new ideas (Wii Run, Cardboard games, make your own game, ARMS, Snipperclip) some stay, others wane.

Nintendo's stock is something I tend to ignore because I do not feel like the stock is a great metric for Nintendo's success, it's more like a hype and fear effect market stock and weird things can influence that. Nintendo's stock is weird because Nintendo refuses to go 100% mobile and create Nintendo GaaS gacha games galore like a good portion of investors would like to see as their sole products.

Nintendo is in a great place because it keeps being Nintendo no matter what, we just grow older and internet isn't really a happy place and I feel like we sometimes get lost in all of that, as if things HAVE to be bad. Why not lean back a little and permit yourself to enjoy things more?

 

[TurtleRock]

I accept your admonishment and apologise for wasting your time.

I get a little carried away with reactions sometimes... or all the time. It's not just games.

No problem I appreciate it. I'll leave you with one final thought which is what I tend to reflect on anytime online gaming discourse gets me down.

The hardcore Nintendo enthusiast bought the WiiU. Nintendo did an ok job pandering to them. It only got them 13.56 million in sales. Those are the "diehard" Nintendo fans that you see online all the time.

The Switch has sold over 92.8 million. You don't get there if you're doing something wrong. That's the base and as long as they're happy Nintendo will be fine. Ignore the haters and enjoy the video games! I do agree that these times won't last forever so it's best to appreciate these moments. It's a good time to be a Nintendo fan right now so don't let negativity ruin that for you.

 

[Dekuman]

I loathe to point to financial results as there is often a lag and they are necessarily backwards looking. They certainly will round out a very strong FY 2022 come march of next year.
That said, Nintendo has a great concept and they just need to iterate on it successfully. And there's always a risk there, there is always one for every company.\
Ironically, without Iwata and Miyamoto steering the ship I'm more confident we'll get a more straightforward successor that one that is weighted down with flights of fancy.

 

[Robert]

I think there's a big disconnect between the average consumer, whom make up the vast majority of actual paying customers, and people on the internet willing to talk about their purchases. It's a tired cliche, but it's one that holds worth, that there's more negativity on the internet than positivity because people who like something don't feel the need to tell everyone about why they like something. Combined with the more insular, more nerdy nature of many online gaming spaces, and you've got a nice stew of negativity going.

Like, take NSO, and the Expansion Pak in particular. Me, a big nerd, doesn't want to $50 dollars a year for the service because of things like the emulation issues and drip-feeding. The average consumer, on the other hand, sees that they can get their favorite N64 games with their NSO sub, and is totally cool with it. Emulation issues probably won't even be noticeable to them. Stuff that we forum nerds like to complain about is such small potatoes stuff, stuff that only matters to a tiny few. Pokémon is also a stellar example. How often do you hear absurdly heated arguments about flipping Pokémon outside of the internet? People so mad that they think Junichi Masuda and company are out to personally ruin their favorite franchise? Never.

Nintendo knows what they are doing, and they're doing just fine. Sure, they could be doing better, both in terms of products and as a buisness, but that's every company.

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

Like, take NSO, and the Expansion Pak in particular. Me, a big nerd, doesn't want to $50 dollars a year for the service because of things like the emulation issues and drip-feeding. The average consumer, on the other hand, sees that they can get their favorite N64 games with their NSO sub, and is totally cool with it. Emulation issues probably won't even be noticeable to them. Stuff that we forum nerds like to complain about is such small potatoes stuff, stuff that only matters to a tiny few. Pokémon is also a stellar example. How often do you hear absurdly heated arguments about flipping Pokémon outside of the internet? Never.

I doubt that the Expansion Pack will be that much of a hit with the wide public given what we know about the performance of retro releases on these services. I guess it's possible that N64 games are more appealing to the Switch userbase at large but I don't think there's particularly strong evidence to suggest that. This is in part why I find the entire service a bit weird. It seems to be aimed towards enthusiasts by also offering better emulated versions of Genesis/MD games but completely botches the execution on the N64.

 

[Undeniablybiased]

I don’t think the premise of the thread is accurate.

 

[Clix]

lacklustre products (with isolated exceptions), poor services, anti-consumer (a rare genuine use of the term this time) refund policies, awkward engagement, outdated hardware.

This is a weird take? I would not call their products lacklustre. Quite the opposite. They make very good products. Sure, not every game is a winner as is the case for every company, but their track record is excellent. And the fondness people have for their games disproves that. Not sure where you get lacklustre, unless you go for small pockets that are loud and annoying but do not represent most players or the fandom.

Also do not like calling it outdated hardware because it is an overly simplistic approach and in the sense of a couple of things to consider:

1, it is outdated if you compare them to a gaming only TV box. It's a handheld hybrid. That is like comparing my beloved Honda Hit to a say, a Porsche. Apples and Oranges as they are two devices set out to do two different things.

2, cost. This may change, but it was important for Nintendo to hit a price point that is affordable with Switch. I don't have a PS5 nor will I get one anytime soon because 500 plus tax, plus a game. I don't want to spend 600 bucks. They went for a cost that is attractive for not just us, but general public. And the Switch really starts off at 200 bucks if TV play is not important to you. Things have gotten cheaper, but the cost break down of manufacturing each unit was still over 200 dollars when it released. They don't like to sell at a loss, but margins were still tight.

3, Not liking something or the price of a service or game is not anti-consumer. There are no deceptive prices at all. In fact, hate it all you want, they are up front with costs and rarely pivot that decision. At the end of the day, these are luxury toys we all enjoy. Not a bad thing to call them toys. I love toys. Toys are great.

4, Switch released in 2017. Unlike PC, consoles show their age in a couple of years or are already aged on release (applies to all the three companies). in early 2017, I would not say that about the Switch. If we compare raw numbers to the PS4, sure, but again, two very different devices with goals. My friend had one of those GP handheld gaming things and it was mad cool. But also absurdly expensive and absurdly low battery life. We got something with depending on the game, up to 6 or 7 hours of battery life, small form factor, hybrid, and 300 bucks. Many of us felt that was awesome. If Nintendo ever releases a tv box only console without a very specific gimmick (say AR based, etc), then we can compare and say they jumped the gun. The Wii U was comparable to a PS3 or 360, but lets face it, it should have launched too late. PS4 came out two years later.

5, don't take pockets of angry internet people at any face value. For your sanity. I've been gaming for 30 years now and this nonsense has been around since my AOL (lol) days to every year since.

 

[Deleted member 540]

This is a weird take? I would not call their products lacklustre. Quite the opposite. They make very good products. Sure, not every game is a winner as is the case for every company, but their track record is excellent. And the fondness people have for their games disproves that. Not sure where you get lacklustre, unless you go for small pockets that are loud and annoying but do not represent most players or the fandom.

Also do not like calling it outdated hardware because it is an overly simplistic approach and in the sense of a couple of things to consider:

1, it is outdated if you compare them to a gaming only TV box. It's a handheld hybrid. That is like comparing my beloved Honda Hit to a say, a Porsche. Apples and Oranges as they are two devices set out to do two different things.

2, cost. This may change, but it was important for Nintendo to hit a price point that is affordable with Switch. I don't have a PS5 nor will I get one anytime soon because 500 plus tax, plus a game. I don't want to spend 600 bucks. They went for a cost that is attractive for not just us, but general public. And the Switch really starts off at 200 bucks if TV play is not important to you. Things have gotten cheaper, but the cost break down of manufacturing each unit was still over 200 dollars when it released. They don't like to sell at a loss, but margins were still tight.

3, Not liking something or the price of a service or game is not anti-consumer. There are no deceptive prices at all. In fact, hate it all you want, they are up front with costs and rarely pivot that decision. At the end of the day, these are luxury toys we all enjoy. Not a bad thing to call them toys. I love toys. Toys are great.

4, Switch released in 2017. Unlike PC, consoles show their age in a couple of years or are already aged on release (applies to all the three companies). in early 2017, I would not say that about the Switch. If we compare raw numbers to the PS4, sure, but again, two very different devices with goals. My friend had one of those GP handheld gaming things and it was mad cool. But also absurdly expensive and absurdly low battery life. We got something with depending on the game, up to 6 or 7 hours of battery life, small form factor, hybrid, and 300 bucks. Many of us felt that was awesome. If Nintendo ever releases a tv box only console without a very specific gimmick (say AR based, etc), then we can compare and say they jumped the gun. The Wii U was comparable to a PS3 or 360, but lets face it, it should have launched too late. PS4 came out two years later.

5, don't take pockets of angry internet people at any face value. For your sanity. I've been gaming for 30 years now and this nonsense has been around since my AOL (lol) days to every year since.

To be clear, when I list the criticisms, I'm not necessarily in agreement with them, I was just repeating what I perceived was being said.

Anyway, I have made enough of a chump of myself for one day, so I shall adjourn to the whisky room (the kitchen?). Thank you everyone for humouring my nonsense.

But one last thing: isn't mellowdrama the opposite of melodrama?

 

[Tailzo]

I wish xbox did make a real handheld. Based on the xbox series s maybe. But I haven’t heard any rumors of that happening. And while I love my ps vita, it no longer means life. And I doubt Sony will want to make a psp 3.

I also feel Nintendo is stronger than ever. Yes they have the joy con drift problem, yes nintendo switch online + expansion got off to a rocky start. But their games are excellent, and I doubt the Steam deck will be viewed as a real alternative to the switch. I’d like to buy a steam deck in the future, but maybe an improved and cheaper version in a few years?

Anyway, I don’t see any rot.

 

[Oregano]

Go back to the 2017, when the Switch was first coming out or all throughout that year.

Check out 2018 and how much of a drought there was until Pokémon and how bad it was NSO wasn't scrapped.

Check out 2019 and how empty the first 6 months were.

Check out 2020... in general.

Now tell if the discourse has actually shifted at all.

 

[Cantaim]

Honestly I think Steam Deck is more valve trying to find ways to continue to expand while the PC market continues to shrink as it has been for the past decade. It’s also limited because it’s really only going to be available to steam users for at least 2-3 years due to supply chain problems.

For Nintendo’s own issues outside of joy con drift they are mostly forum and social media talking points. There’s not really anyone that’s going to not buy a switch because an optional expansion pass to an online sub is expensive.

 

[Clix]

To be clear, when I list the criticisms, I'm not necessarily in agreement with them, I was just repeating what I perceived was being said.

Anyway, I have made enough of a chump of myself for one day, so I shall adjourn to the whisky room (the kitchen?). Thank you everyone for humouring my nonsense.

But one last thing: isn't mellowdrama the opposite of melodrama?

lol You did not make a chump of yourself at all. I just think just the internet got to you. Which I will admit gets to me at too sometimes, not just with gaming but everything else. Just drown out those voices. As best as you can. They will be there with whatever other hobby you like.

Film is my big one, more so than gaming. It's what I went to uni for. But fuck, half of film twitter is just insufferable. And message boards too. Ha;lf them talk more about the financials and profits that I never once see film enthusiast circles discuss, as they rather talk about the creative aspects and analysis of the film-making techniques over soemthing that is so inconsequential to film appreciation as profits.

 

[Ramune]

But fuck, half of film twitter is just insufferable.

Anyway here’s another fan cast with the same set of actors I fan cast in everything.

Anyway, I have made enough of a chump of myself for one day, so I shall adjourn to the whisky room (the kitchen?). Thank you everyone for humouring my nonsense.

But one last thing: isn't mellowdrama the opposite of melodrama?

No chump behaviour in here. I think it’s good for all of us to talk about perspective because half of the time we’re all lacking in it, and I feel you in terms of seeing lots of negativity some days and wondering what the hell is up.

Also re: mellowdrama, there was a k-pop song this year that did that pun. Stream ‘Sticker’ by NCT 127 today!

 

[BombChorizo]

Is this a copypasta? lol seriously though, I've been a Nintendo fan long enough to go through dozens of "Nintendo is the best/Nintendo is the worst" swings. I'm numb to it. It's the circle of life.

 

[lemonfresh]

Nintendo is doomed

 

[Hidden04]

I see we have entered doomer mode. Nintendo will probably make another Switch, and the Switch is still selling really well. Any game blows up on Switch, it's basically the Vita if popular. It is not going away any time soon.

 

[DistractedByPixels]

And it is possible that the market sees it that way. Nintendo's stock price has dropped nearly a quarter over the past year despite the great sales figures. Maybe they too worry that beneath the jade and gold exterior, a rot has set in at Nintendo that threatens the sustainability of their business as the juggernaut it is.

I just wanted to comment on this: Assuming that the market is being rational at all regarding stock pricing is a fool's game.

 

[Hero of Hyrule]

Almost not a single statement in the OP was true, kind of impressive really

 

[BombChorizo]

Nintendo is doomed

Tale as old as time

 

[Pokemaniac]

Something that's worth remembering is that often some of the most passionate fans of something are it's loudest critics, and a niche forum like this is going to self select for that sort of person to some degree. Also Nintendo for a variety of reasons has a higher level of background dooming than a lot of other companies. Online discourse often skews a bit overly negative at the best of times, but it can get pretty bad under these sorts of conditions.

Also, with respect to the comments about competition, the Steam Deck exists at an entirely different (and much smaller) scale than the Switch does, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Microsoft and Sony are also unlikely to try to get (back) into the portable market outside of crappy streaming-based attempts.

 

[totofogo]

Nintendo are definitely strong now. But with the discourse turning, I wonder about the future.

If they can recover from the Wii U they can recover from anything, this feels like moving the goalpost from "Nintendo is Doomed" to "Nintendo could be doomed".

For all you mentioned in OP, you entirely disregard Nintendo's trump card: games. They continue to deliver world-class experiences that no other publisher can match, and have definitely raised the bar in regards to the quality and quantity of their titles this gen. That's not going to change.

 

[Aostia82]

Who exaclty see Nintendo as bad?

 

[Yavga]

Who exaclty see Nintendo as bad?

This guy for sure

 

[Pandora]

uh op....what? I'm really not sure where you are seeing or hearing a lot of what you posted but it's times like these i wholly have to advise people to relax, go play games and take a step away from the computer for a bit.

 

[Beard]

“Garbage Galaxy” means this thread is a joke, right?

 

[BombChorizo]

This guy for sure

Somehow I've never seen this. I feel like I missed out on a slice of internet history.

 

[Kreese]

No offence but this reads like either an elaborate fanbot troll post, or a Nintendo fan with PTSD because they spend too much time in fanbot troll circles that are completely irrelevant to the outside world.

 

[Argot]

I should have been clearer that I was talking about recently, ie the last year. Pokemon is getting it in the neck. Mario Golf seemed to attract some criticism. And of course N64-NSO.

People have been complaining about Pokemon and NSO all gen so some people not liking Mario Golf this year doesn't seem like the firmest of foundations for declaring Nintendo's reputation has recently started to collapse.

 

[E.Gadd]

“Garbage Galaxy” means this thread is a joke, right?

I'm glad I'm not the only one totally confused by all this. I thought the OP was a bit cause "Garbage Galaxy" too.

But everyone seems to be taking it seriously...