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Discussion Gamesradar || Sonic Superstars team doesn't think pixel art will be a "viable" art style in 10 years

ILikeFeet

Warpstar Knight
"When we talk about the brand, we definitely need to have a modern Sonic 3D game," Iizuka said. "We also feel we need to have a classic Sonic 2D game. Those are our fundamental pillars that we need to have. We're expanding into movies and TV, but we still need to have both the 3D and the 2D line up for our gaming audience."
However, while Frontiers is being seen as a platform for the next two decades of 3D Sonic, Superstars has a slightly different role to play. Iizuka described the game as an "evolution of the 2D Sonic gameplay," saying that "we look at the pixel art - it's great - but when we think about 10-20 years in the future, we don't think it's going to be a viable art style or presentation for our players. And in order to advance and really step things up, we did want to make sure that we're presenting something that 10-20 years down the road we're still evolving and creating new content for."


well this will make some folks unhappy. and I get what the writer is trying to do with the comparison to Sonic Mania, Octopath, and Sea of Stars, but it falls on its face for several reasons
  • the writer cites the metacritic, but that has little to do with art style and more to do with Sonic Mania being a good game. besides, conflating scores with art style is very dumb
  • Octopath and Sea of Stars target different audiences (remember the last Sonic RPG? that was 2D as well!)
  • a lot of pixel games target a different price bracket than Sonic Superstars. ain't many pixel games out there that are charging $50-$60 like Sonic Superstars is
 
I kinda get what he means from a "casual/mainstream audiences tend to see pixel art and spritework as lower value and 3D models as higher value" standpoint.

But this still just feels like such a 2009-ass take.
 
I mean, yeah. If you go for pixel art you inevitably have to adjust your sales target as you lose out on many people who might otherwise be interested in your game. But I’d probably first see if it really is a limiting factor for 2D Sonic before making that assumption.
 
It's certainly possible that pixel art (and 80s/early 90s styling in general) won't be the "hot" thing in ten years. Things fall in and out of fashion.
 
Not surprised to hear a perspective like this from Sonic Team tbh. Even if they crank out some good products from time to time I don't think I'll ever understand their whole rationale for a lot of things.

Nintendo seems to be on board with this too though so it's hard to fault them. Hoping we at least see some more stuff like Super Mario Maker one day that sees them stretch those classic styles some more.
 
I wonder how broadly appealing pixel art is compared to 3D models, because Nintendo has also basically abandoned pixel art as well outside of either intentional throwback things like NES Remix or Mario Odyssey's 2D sections or Mario Maker, or just in UI here and there.

There's also the production aspect where REALLY GOOD pixel art (like Street Fighter III) is really expensive compared to 3D models.
 
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I am all for these traditionally pixel art series (Metroid, Sonic, Mario, Mega Man, Castlevania) moving forward with 2.5D entries. I adore pixel art, but recent titles have convinced me that 2.5D can look really good and push visuals and animation that aren't feasible or practical with pixels and can even end up looking like playable concept art.

But pixel art won't and should never die and can coexist even in the same series, like how Bloodstained has multiple 2D classic sprite entries alongside RotN. I would welcome a 2.5D Mega Man 12 alongside a sprite based X9 or ZX3. There is still a hunger for retro throwbacks.
 
Good pixel art is difficult, but timeless.

I don't think Superstars looks especially bad, but I don't think it works as well as Mania,
 
This is going to get tons of hate from people who can't read between the lines and realize they're saying "a pixel-art 2D Sonic game would sell less than Superstars", which is true. Pixel art turns off normal audiences nowadays (insert but Minecraft ™️).
 
I'm sorry, but Neo Geo games still look stunning today.

So no.

This is going to get tons of hate from people who can't read between the lines and realize they're saying "a pixel-art 2D Sonic game would sell less than Superstars",

And you're right, but at the same time, we still need to see how the game does agaisnt Mania.

And my point still stands. Sales aside, well done pixel art is beautiful and timeless.
 
Is "pixel art" and "sprites" the same thing?
It's weird to consider Hollow Knight a pixel art game.

I've never been particularly fond of pixelated art styles, but, for 2D gameplay, will always prefer sprites over 3D models. I also don't think it's a turn off to a mass audience. I doubt many put too much thought into it.
 
I'm not surprised to hear this from them...and honestly that's more than fine. Superstars is a great art direction for 2.5D plus the Sonic fangame community will continue to make stylish 2D sprite-like games anyway just because.

If they pull out that look again it'll be for the Nintendo reasons like someone mentioned above (makes me think of the latest Olympics game where they had the Mario and Sonic sprites for one mode iirc) or another anniversary title.
 
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And you're right, but at the same time, we still need to see how the game does agaisnt Mania.

And my point still stands. Sales aside, well done pixel art is beautiful and timeless.
I just think people should remember that Sega is grooming this series to be the New Super Mario Bros. of Sonic. Their expectations no matter how unreasonable they may sound (they said they expect it to sell as well as Frontiers) ultimately decide how a title shapes up and going the 3D route is the right move if they want this to get a lot of sales and become a mainstay series for Sonic.

No arguments from me that pixel-art is awesome though. Sonic Mania is actually the game that made me like pixel-art.
 
I see it as less of "Pixel art is outdated" and more of "Pixel art is avaliable in countless infinite games now because of indies and if big IP games want to sell, they need to give you more than what you can get for $5 elsewhere, which is making Pixel Arts games hard to justify when compared to the numerous advantages of 3D games, from mainstream appeal to ease of development"
 
Not surprised to hear a perspective like this from Sonic Team tbh. Even if they crank out some good products from time to time I don't think I'll ever understand their whole rationale for a lot of things.

Nintendo seems to be on board with this too though so it's hard to fault them. Hoping we at least see some more stuff like Super Mario Maker one day that sees them stretch those classic styles some more.
When have Nintendo ever been not with this mindset? The reason the Maker games have it is because of the nature of the series/genre itself.
 
This is really getting taken out of context everywhere I'm seeing it, including this thread title

we don't think it's going to be a viable art style or presentation for our players

He's talking specifically about the Sonic 2D Series, and how the Pixel art style would be limiting to it's growth and evolution over the next 10-20 years. That's a fair enough take.
 
This might sound echochamberish, but I don't believe that there is a huge overlap between people that appreciate 2D games and those who don't like pixel-art. Gamers who claim that $60 for a pixel-art game is highway robbery weren't going to pay for a 2D platformer anyway.

There's no doubt that Superstars looks good, but Mania conveys atmosphere and character emotions much better IMO. I hope that Superstars or its sequels either reach the level of expressiveness of Mania or explore the unique capabilities of 2.5D (interactive backgrounds, cinematic camera, etc.), because it would otherwise feel like a waste.
 
On the bright side, maybe in 10-15 years if the 2.5D Superstars series has fallen off in quality and fans are begging for a return to the old ways, Sega can just hire a group of fan developers to make a new pixelart Sonic game themselves 🤷‍♂️
 
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not viable makes no sense. like its for sure getting old nowadays but if devs use it creatively, it's absolutely viable.
Judging from what they are talking about it seems they are saying that both developmentally & commercially the style is not viable for bigger projects &/or growth for 2D Sonic within a 10yr timeframe.
 
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What they said is ‘viable art style for our players.’ I.e. Sonic players. Which is completely different to ‘viable art style in general’.

Even the GamesRadar writer admitted as much at the end. Article title is misleading.
Iizuka's comments seem to extend specifically to a Sonic fandom that may skew younger than the JRPG community, but I'd be surprised to see pixel art going anywhere in the short term
 
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I wonder how broadly appealing pixel art is compared to 3D models, because Nintendo has also basically abandoned pixel art as well outside of either intentional throwback things like NES Remix or Mario Odyssey's 2D sections or Mario Maker, or just in UI here and there.

There's also the production aspect where REALLY GOOD pixel art (like Street Fighter III) is really expensive compared to 3D models.
Is high-quality pixel art really that much more expensive? I've seen that line trotted out so often, but everything I've seen suggests to me it's less a question of raw expenses and more a question of how much profits companies think they can make off pixel-art games. IIRC High-definition 3D is way more expensive than high-definition pixel art, but because it's less time-consuming on paper and it gets more sales up front from consumers who still think pixel art means Pac-Man it's rarely considered an unjustifiable expense like 2D art is.
 
When have Nintendo ever been not with this mindset? The reason the Maker games have it is because of the nature of the series/genre itself.

Super Mario Maker feels kind of special in that the pixel art is so integral to the game and not just a sort of gimmick like Odyssey, but yeah, it's still kind of carried by the "new" Mario styles, you're right if that's your point. I'm not really disputing Nintendo is of this mindset.
 
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Then you should figure out how to make your side scroller with 3D graphics look appealing.

As someone who isn't much into Sonic, this game isn't doing anything to move my needle. It looks like yet another rethread of Green Hills (seriously, why does every Sonic game's first level look the same? Is it still nostalgic for anyone at this point?) with worse graphics.
 
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That's straight up already the case with pixel art limiting your audience reach to mostly old farts steeped in nostalgia for back when the industry was much smaller overall.

Nintendo didn't basically completely drop pixel art by accident.
 
That's straight up already the case with pixel art limiting your audience reach to mostly old farts steeped in nostalgia for back when the industry was much smaller overall.

Nintendo didn't basically completely drop pixel art by accident.
Old fart steeped in nostalgia here. This seems needlessly aggressive towards people who just, like, enjoy the artstyle, ya know?
 
Is high-quality pixel art really that much more expensive? I've seen that line trotted out so often, but everything I've seen suggests to me it's less a question of raw expenses and more a question of how much profits companies think they can make off pixel-art games. IIRC High-definition 3D is way more expensive than high-definition pixel art, but because it's less time-consuming on paper and it gets more sales up front from consumers who still think pixel art means Pac-Man it's rarely considered an unjustifiable expense like 2D art is.

Yes it is.

Making a single sprite is clearly significantly less work than making a single model, but you can do so much more with a model than a sprite that they're practically incomparable.

When you make a model, you can rotate it and position it however you like, and a lot of the work is done. With pixel art, every time you want to show it doing anything, you have to draw all the frames of animation by hand, you have to draw them in whatever positions, and to reach the same level of detail as people would expect with a model, you're probably talking creating tones of thousands of repetitions for a modern era game.

There's a level where sprites are deliberately low detail and low in amount of animation you expect out of them where they're more cost effective, but that barrier is really low.
 
Old fart steeped in nostalgia here. This seems needlessly aggressive towards people who just, like, enjoy the artstyle, ya know?

I was describing myself there. I've professed my love for octopath and livealive enough already to make that clear. It's still all true. This genie is out of the bottle and there's little reason to dance around the fact that these games are a hard niche that limits sales potential for anything that has ambitions over a low few million.

Not that I expect sonic superstars to make good on those sales ambitions, given, you know, Arzest are working on it, and they're obviously significantly less talented than the team behind sonic mania, but still, it's a hard limit to anythings potential in the market.
 
Taking a long view I can see where Iizuka's coming from, but I think it's the wrong premise to approach it from whether to use pixel art or not.

2D games in general reach a broader audience than 3D, and Sonic specifically has to think about the 8-year-old that's never touched a console game before. While the last decade showed second graders are quite amenable to pixel art, Sega wants 2D Sonic to be a $60 release--the bigger obstacle is convincing their parents to buy it. Dad will put $10 down for Undertale, but wait for a sale when he sees Shovel Knight's $40 tag. He'll drop $20 on Mania, but not three times that. Pixel art is still viable, but it's a different business model than what Sega wants Sonic to be.

That doesn't automatically mean 3D is the most approachable or cost-effective way of doing 2D Sonic. When fans bring up Mania, my first thoughts actually go to the opening:



There would be a number of advantages to doing a hand-drawn Sonic game, even for the sharks running finance. 2D animation is cheap, yet perceived as valuable because it's rare. Work is sparse in general 2D animation, so there's a lot of skilled animators that could be employed at what are low costs for the game industry but high wages for animators. High-res 2D assets have a faster turnaround than polygon models, and don't have to scale in strict integers like pixel art. So you get the advantages of 2D assets while being able to adjust for nonstandard aspect ratios on PC/Mac/mobile, the way you can with 3D.

The question of how difficult different types of 2D are to make comes up a lot. I would consider what Naoto Oshima said of Superstars' art style:

"If you think about the old Genesis games, everything's flat. So if you turned one of those 2D Sonic games on its side, it's just a line of pixels," says Oshima. "But when you're making a 2D game with 3D models, if you turn that sideways you're going to have this really wide area. And because we have four-player multiplayer, each of the characters need to be able to run side-by-side but not on top of each other – otherwise you're going to see arms poking out of other people's bodies"

"So even though you're seeing it all from a 2D perspective, we had to make the collision work for that 3D space… at the same time, it still has to look and feel like the 2D Sonic games while you're playing it. It was extremely difficult," says Oshima. "It's actually more difficult than just making a 3D game, where you can just look with a free camera, because it always has to act as if it's a 2D game."

The reality is, there's no such thing as an easy game to make. Everything will be difficult in its own way--it comes down to time, labor, and tech. Working in pixel art, you have to define a virtual resolution and palette to work in, and anything like variable device resolutions or aspect ratios is a huge headache. Most people do not learn skills like animating your anti-aliasing, but those that do are really good at it.

Working in polygons, you have to consider lighting, shaders, draw distance, level-of-detail, the whole pipeline of diffuse/specular/normal/whatever maps, and tricks like impostors. There is a wider talent pool available for this, but the ceiling is much higher which makes proficiency harder to achieve. The greater complexity of the pipeline makes each asset consume more man-hours.

What is right for Sonic specifically? What reaches the broadest audience, represents the characters faithfully, and is most legible to play, while still fitting in the $60 boxed-game-at-Christmas format? When I look at footage of Superstars, I don't see the hook in the art style. It seems like a conservative guess of what audiences will buy, but it doesn't instantly grab me and make me think about it all the time like Wonder. I may just be outside their target though.

If they wanted to stand out from other 2D platformers, there's very little competition in that high-res hand-drawn space. I can name Cuphead, The Dragon's Trap, Hollow Knight, and some of the Shantae games, which are a little more core-facing than Sonic. If you get out of platformers and look at other genres, there's Vanillaware games and Indivisible, but it's still a small pond. Sonic could be a really big fish in it.

Is "pixel art" and "sprites" the same thing?
It's weird to consider Hollow Knight a pixel art game.

I've never been particularly fond of pixelated art styles, but, for 2D gameplay, will always prefer sprites over 3D models. I also don't think it's a turn off to a mass audience. I doubt many put too much thought into it.

Generally, "pixel art" today means you're painting at a lower resolution (virtual resolution) than the target resolution. For example, Shovel Knight has a virtual resolution of 400x240 pixels, scaled up 4.5x to 1800x1080 for 1080p displays. Most pixel art games now use a virtual resolution of 320x180 because it can cleanly scale 6x to 1920x1080 for 1080p, or 12x to 3840x2160 for 4k monitors. These games also follow certain retro palette restrictions that make them feel more like NES or SNES games.

Hollow Knight's assets appear to be painted at a higher resolution and downscaled to 1080, which is how general digital artwork is made. So it's not a "pixel art" game, in the way that Owlboy or Sea of Stars is.

Many historic pixel art games were painted at their exact target resolution (320x240, 256x224, etc.) and there are a few pixel artists today that work at 1920x1080 directly. If memory serves, Savant Ascent is one of those rare full-resolution pixel art games. In practical terms, these days pixel art is something made in Aseprite, GraphicsGale, ProMotion, or another specialized tool. The hand-drawn look is made in software that try to imitate analog media; PhotoShop, Clip Studio Paint, Rebelle, etc.
 
I wonder how broadly appealing pixel art is compared to 3D models, because Nintendo has also basically abandoned pixel art as well outside of either intentional throwback things like NES Remix or Mario Odyssey's 2D sections or Mario Maker, or just in UI here and there.

There's also the production aspect where REALLY GOOD pixel art (like Street Fighter III) is really expensive compared to 3D models.
Nintendo mostly abandoning pixel art is such a shame as their sprites are so iconic and well made. Mario Wonder is a good step in the right direction for making the models look more lively, but I hope it doesn't completely go the way of the dino.
 
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That's straight up already the case with pixel art limiting your audience reach to mostly old farts steeped in nostalgia for back when the industry was much smaller overall.

Nintendo didn't basically completely drop pixel art by accident.
‘Old fart steeped in nostalgia’ should be my signature :D

I’m looking forward to Mario Wonder and the new Sonic game as they remind me of the 2D games I loved as a kid, but it’s the Star Ocean 2 remake that has me really interested this winter, and then Dragon Quest 2DHD after that, and Octopath II is currently front runner for my GOTY. I feel like I’m better served these days than 20 years ago.
 
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if Sonic Superstars doesn't sell as well as Mania, I think it would have less to do with being 3D over pixel art and more to do with it either not being as good or its proximity to Mario Wonder.

I do think pixel art is a harder sell to the wider audience while being full price, which is what the team was probably getting at
 
if Sonic Superstars doesn't sell as well as Mania, I think it would have less to do with being 3D over pixel art and more to do with it either not being as good or its proximity to Mario Wonder.

I do think pixel art is a harder sell to the wider audience while being full price, which is what the team was probably getting at
I'm afraid that if Superstars doesn't sell well, Sega won't see it as "well let's go back to Mania graphics and pricing" and will instead see it as "ah people don't want 2D games anymore"
 
What they said is ‘viable art style for our players.’ I.e. Sonic players. Which is completely different to ‘viable art style in general’.

Even the GamesRadar writer admitted as much at the end. Article title is misleading.
Jrpg fans confirmed to be only slightly older then the average Sonic fan

How embarassing

:p
 
I'm afraid that if Superstars doesn't sell well, Sega won't see it as "well let's go back to Mania graphics and pricing" and will instead see it as "ah people don't want 2D games anymore"
that's pretty much where I'm at. "go back to 2D" hasn't been a solution for any developer as far as I know. you might as well just say "make a cheaper to develop product" than go 2D, but bigger studios won't find too much value in that
 
I think it's ok, I can see why they think so. We have Sonic Mania and I guess there'll be more pixel Sonic in future so... both is fine
 
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this is so dispiriting. 2.5D sells better, but it’s still uglier than well executed pixel art even when it’s done as well as it can be (mostly Nintendo games coming to mind here).

oh well
 


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