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Discussion [Kotaku] Pokémon GO's New Character Creator Is Out And Everyone Hates It

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DittoM

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kotaku.com

Pokémon GO's New Character Creator Is Out And Everyone Hates It

The new avatars have weird eyes, androgynous bodies, and a horrible case of bowlegs
kotaku.com kotaku.com









Genuinely don’t know how this got released. Avatars have weird fridge-like proportions, weird faces, clothes that don’t fit properly, and a myriad of other errors. Unfortunately Niantic are the kings of not giving a damn about community feedback so we’re most likely stuck with this, at least for a while.
 
GLaDsbmWMAAyUIr


Perfection
 
They're technically more customizable than the old avatars, but the results are not exactly impressive. This probably isn't going to help with the frequent visual glitches some of the outfits are prone to either.
 
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What really boggles my mind is that they allow you to adjust your avatar’s weight, muscle mass, shoulder width, and chest and hip size…but, somehow, not height?! Like, that’s more basic than any of those! How do they omit that?! Why can’t my avatar be short??

But Pokémon GO avatars have always looked horrendous, anyway. At least there’s some decent-ish hair options now, I guess… And hey, at least they’re not quite as terrible as the avatars in Pokémon TCG Live! Those ones are truly horrendous. I like the way my partner described them—“they’ll make you feel dysphoric no matter how you identify.” (It’s so true, though…lol.)
 
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As a Pokemon Go player (add me: 3644 6218 0222), I don't hate it... as much. It's not like I play it to look at my avatar. I just want to catch 100% cat/dog Pokemon and use it to supplement my mainline game's Pokedex completion. It's a case of 'good intention, horrible implementation'. Can probably use more time in the oven; just like the mainline games.

A straight forward solution might simply be an option to have the old avatar model as one of the standard 'body type'. Then anyone (most players) can just choose that option and ignore all the variations.
 
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I know I've said I want to destroy gender several times before but I was hoping to do something more graceful than this.

I've been wondering for a while if Niantic is just done with Pokemon Go and just wants to kill the game as efficiently as possible, because the last couple years of changes feel absolutely like that.
 
Dardan Sandiego said:
OT2RPPH.png
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It's been something I've been thinking for a while, too. Niantic has released a lot more games since Go came out, including their own IPs, yet Pokemon Go remains the more successful one. At some point one wonders if they actually resent that given how the last couple updates have gone.

It's also a bit weird because... Niantic is sort of terrible at making actual games. They have some amazing AR and location based framework and technology that's the most cutting edge stuff in the area, but they are absolutely less skilled at developing actual games with it. I had that feeling when playing Peridot, which is a super cool AR tech demo but had a lot of nonsensical gameplay design decisions.
 
Tangerine_Cookie said:
It's been something I've been thinking for a while, too. Niantic has released a lot more games since Go came out, including their own IPs, yet Pokemon Go remains the more successful one. At some point one wonders if they actually resent that given how the last couple updates have gone.

It's also a bit weird because... Niantic is sort of terrible at making actual games. They have some amazing AR and location based framework and technology that's the most cutting edge stuff in the area, but they are absolutely less skilled at developing actual games with it. I had that feeling when playing Peridot, which is a super cool AR tech demo but had a lot of nonsensical gameplay design decisions.
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Well, they are exactly where it started: amazing tech from a team that grew out of Google maps, but game design is not there strength, just like with ingress. If it's resentment it's aimed at the wrong target, they had enough time to become more then a framework and infrastructure provider.
 
I think this is more supposed to be a body inclusivity/beauty standards thing rather than an androgyny thing but idk.
 
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TrashMarket said:
I’ll have what she’s having
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The Missingno

Stopdoor said:
That headphones thing is pretty funny, lol. at least this continues the proud (?) tradition of Pokemon visual glitches bordering on bizarro territory
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BIZARRO BIZARRO! (I wonder if anyone will get this reference)

Dardan Sandiego said:
OT2RPPH.png
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Austin Powers Supremacy

Aether said:
Well, they are exactly where it started: amazing tech from a team that grew out of Google maps, but game design is not there strength, just like with ingress. If it's resentment it's aimed at the wrong target, they had enough time to become more then a framework and infrastructure provider.
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Imagine a game with Niantics' tech and someone that knows how to properly design a video game. That'd be rad
 
I was like "Androgeny? That sounds like a good thing as a base for a character builder."

Then I saw:
GLcuF0yawAAAU8P.jpg

I am astonished. I'm afraid to open it and see what mine is doing.
 
Tangerine_Cookie said:
It's been something I've been thinking for a while, too. Niantic has released a lot more games since Go came out, including their own IPs, yet Pokemon Go remains the more successful one. At some point one wonders if they actually resent that given how the last couple updates have gone.

It's also a bit weird because... Niantic is sort of terrible at making actual games. They have some amazing AR and location based framework and technology that's the most cutting edge stuff in the area, but they are absolutely less skilled at developing actual games with it. I had that feeling when playing Peridot, which is a super cool AR tech demo but had a lot of nonsensical gameplay design decisions.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't speculate resentment. Teams have a myriad of reasons to want to drop old games, one of which being that it takes resources to keep these things going which kinda traps members into having to develop for a single game for years and years. It's a problem that can plague a lot of games that go on too long and there isn't a lot of change between who's making them.
 
Seems like some sunk cost fallacy went on here. Spent forever building something that sucks but feel forced to release it anyway…

Least it’s kinda amusing as a non-player lol
 
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Removing gender options excludes a lot of people. By all means add more options, but don't take them away. This isn't the way.
 
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curl-6 said:
Removing gender excludes like 95% of the human race. By all means add more options, but don't take them away. This isn't the way.
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Uh, what?? “Gender” is only “removed” in that there are no longer two fixed gendered bodies to choose from; instead you can now customize your avatar’s body to be how you want (well…within the options provided, which inexplicably excludes something as basic as height, bizarrely), including multiple feminine or masculine options. The execution may not be the best (this is Niantic and TPC we’re talking about, after all), but they’re not taking away options, and it’s certainly not excluding 95% of people at all.

As a non-binary person who has to deal with unnecessarily gendered shit all the fucking time and rarely ever gets the option to select anything other than a binary “male” or “female” for most things, it’s really not that much to ask cis and binary gender people to just fucking deal with games like this “removing gender” to be more inclusive. It’s not excluding you.
 
Tye said:
Uh, what?? “Gender” is only “removed” in that there are no longer two fixed gendered bodies to choose from; instead you can now customize your avatar’s body to be how you want (well…within the options provided, which inexplicably excludes something as basic as height, bizarrely), including multiple feminine or masculine options. The execution may not be the best (this is Niantic and TPC we’re talking about, after all), but they’re not taking away options, and it’s certainly not excluding 95% of people at all.

As a non-binary person who has to deal with unnecessarily gendered shit all the fucking time and rarely ever gets the option to select anything other than a binary “male” or “female” for most things, it’s really not that much to ask cis and binary gender people to just fucking deal with games like this “removing gender” to be more inclusive. It’s not excluding you.
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I literally said they should add more options so more folks can be included.
But the options that already existed and met the needs of the majority should still be there. The execution here is terrible; just make it as simple as having male, female, and non-binary options, problem solved.
Gender is not a dirty thing.
 
curl-6 said:
I literally said they should add more options so more folks can be included.
But the options that already existed and met the needs of the majority should still be there. The execution here is terrible; just make it as simple as having male, female, and non-binary options, problem solved.
Gender is not a dirty thing.
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Honest question: is the gender used anywhere else outside the character creator?

If yes (for dialogues), then sure, I get it even if I would not care.

If not... Then what is it's function? As a pre filter for options in the creator? Then it's maaaybe arguable that it's making it a little more effort going for a gendered style, but functionally it's not removing options.
 
curl-6 said:
I literally said they should add more options so more folks can be included.
But the options that already existed and met the needs of the majority should still be there. The execution here is terrible; just make it as simple as having male, female, and non-binary options, problem solved.
Gender is not a dirty thing.
Click to expand...

The thing though...

Removing gender options excludes like 95% of the human race. By all means add more options, but don't take them away. This isn't the way.
Click to expand...

And specifically this part:

Removing gender options excludes like 95% of the human race.
Click to expand...

This comes across a lot like a right wing talking point, stuff I've personally experienced, especially because the amount of offense you're taking to going to a completely genderless option. You seem offended we're taking away traditional gender options, and I'm going to be frank, the only people who tend to get offended and defensive of stuff like this tend to be people who don't have the best interest in mind. This is how this comes across to me.
 
Aether said:
Honest question: is the gender used anywhere else outside the character creator?

If yes (for dialogues), then sure, I get it even if I would not care.

If not... Then what is it's function? As a pre filter for options in the creator? Then it's maaaybe arguable that it's making it a little more effort going for a gendered style, but functionally it's not removing options.
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Some people just like their avatar to look like them, be that masculine or feminine.
Judging by social media, a lot of women in particular are feeling really unhappy and marginalized by the fact their avatars now look androgynous.
 
Mendinso said:
The thing though...



And specifically this part:



This comes across a lot like a right wing talking point, stuff I've personally experienced, especially because the amount of offense you're taking to going to a completely genderless option. You seem offended we're taking away traditional gender options, and I'm going to be frank, the only people who tend to get offended and defensive of stuff like this tend to be people who don't have the best interest in mind. This is how this comes across to me.
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I'm not right wing and this genuinely wasn't what I was implying. I more meant to demonstrate the magnitude of the fuckup from a corporation's point of view, in that you don't want to alienate a huge share of your audience.
 
curl-6 said:
I'm not right wing and this genuinely wasn't what I was implying. I more meant to demonstrate the magnitude of the fuckup from a corporation's point of view, in that you don't want to alienate a huge share of your audience.
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Okay? And why is that my problem if people get offended at the idea of moving to genderless options? If people get offended that they're trying to make the game more inclusive and removing boundaries, that's not on them, that's on people to get over it and learn to adapt. We should be abolishing typical gendered things as a whole and break those boundaries. This game is doing just that. And if you're bothered about this, maybe you should rethink your line of thinking.
 
Are you sure this isn't about body image concerns over not having a small waist etc etc? Instead of a gender non conforming/non-binary targeted change?

Could be both. If I saw the male models being changed in the reverse way, I might agree with you but from what I'm seeing it looks more like... "this isn't what girls and guys look like" unrealistic beauty standards thing. Body image consciousness thing.

From what I can tell they removed the option to have a small waist entirely (as one example) Idk I'm looking into it now.
 
Mendinso said:
Okay? And why is that my problem if people get offended at the idea of moving to genderless options? If people get offended that they're trying to make the game more inclusive and removing boundaries, that's not on them, that's on people to get over it and learn to adapt. We should be abolishing typical gendered things as a whole and break those boundaries. This game is doing just that. And if you're bothered about this, maybe you should rethink your line of thinking.
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What about people who genuinely vibe with being masculine or feminine though?
Leaving them out isn't inclusive. Inclusion is supposed to be for all.
 
VintoWin said:
Are you sure this isn't about body image concerns over not having a small waist etc etc? Instead of a gender non conforming/non-binary targeted change?

Could be both. If I saw the male models being changed in the reverse way, I might agree with you but from what I'm seeing it looks more like... "this isn't what girls and guys look like" unrealistic beauty standards thing. Body image consciousness thing.

From what I can tell they removed the option to have a small waist entirely (as one example) Idk I'm looking into it now.
Click to expand...

Yeah, from what I can tell, people are noticing things that look off with how the modeling looks, specifically how it interacts with cosmetics and other things. Definitely was not ready to go live yet, but you know, sometimes things get pushed out to meet deadlines, even if they're not ready... Sigh.

I can blame the publisher/developer, but honestly given how The Pokemon Company operates, it's hard to say which of the two is at fault here.

curl-6 said:
What about people who genuinely vibe with being masculine or feminine though?
Leaving them out isn't inclusive. Inclusion is supposed to be for all.
Click to expand...

Removing gendered options has nothing to do with this, though. It's literally a blank slate for you to create and be whatever you want to be. It removes the whole equation of a traditional binary here by removing the gender option. You can still be masculine and feminine leaning, and that doesn't change that, at all.
 
Mendinso said:
Removing gendered options has nothing to do with this, though. It's literally a blank slate for you to create and be whatever you want to be. It removes the whole equation of a traditional binary here by removing the gender option. You can still be masculine and feminine leaning, and that doesn't change that, at all.
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That's the thing though, the previous options have been eliminated, so anybody who liked the way their avatar looked before is shit out of luck.

If it was just adding more options there's be no problem at all, more options for inclusion is a good thing, the issue is the old male and female styles are gone, and from what I can see messing around with it, the options in their place all seem to be androgynous.

Some people simply don't feel represented by androgyny.
 
Now I'm curious as to how this works, gonna go update Go (haven't played in months) and see how it goes.

EDIT: Clipping ahoy if you have a very thin or plus-size character :(
 
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At any rate, I feel I've said my piece here, so I'll leave it at that.
Inclusion is a good thing.
More options is a good thing.
It'd just be nice if those who liked the old avatars got to keep them too.
 
Let's calm down a bit New
  • Index
    • Hey things are getting a little heated in here, so we are going to kindly ask people to calm down a bit when replying to each other. Character creators by their nature are going to elicit strong feelings as you can ideally create characters that best represent and speak to you. Fiddling with options and presentations is going to have some people cheering for the changes and others being left out especially if you had a character that felt "right" prior.

    That said we do want to end one element of the conversation here at least as it has played out. Getting rid of binary gender options doesn't equate to excluding genders themselves and from us looking into this you can still adopt masculine and feminine body types. Let's instead focus on the execution here which we believe is where the core discussions are to be had.

    -xghost777, meatbag, big lantern ghost, Zellia, Dardan Sandiego
     
  • New
  • Index
    • curl-6 said:
    Some people just like their avatar to look like them, be that masculine or feminine.
    Judging by social media, a lot of women in particular are feeling really unhappy and marginalized by the fact their avatars now look androgynous.
    Click to expand...

    curl-6 said:
    What about people who genuinely vibe with being masculine or feminine though?
    Leaving them out isn't inclusive. Inclusion is supposed to be for all.
    Click to expand...

    Maybe i see where we are missing to allign:
    there are 2 things happening here,
    a) removing the switch for gender options
    b) making everything that is there more androgyn

    Point A does NOT exclude anybody, you still can do all the options that you wanted, and even more now. You can still make your character as feminine or masculine apearing as you want.
    Point B is where the problem lies, but that one has NOTHING to do with removing the genderes. Them making all options generally more androgynous is not "removing gender". That is a design decision, maybe for inclusivity, maybe not, without a statement we don't know, and it is one that can and has been criticised.

    If its the second one you have a problem with, then we are more or less on the same page (well, im not invested since i don't really play the game anymore and don't care for avatars generally. If its the first one, when i still need an explanation, how removing the filter for what is shown for masculing and feminine would be reducing options or being less inclusive?
    Back in Pokemon XY i chose the female trainer since i liked the model and the clothing options more.
    In Sun/Moon i liked the male model more...but the female had the way bettere clothing options.
    In an ideal solution it should not mater if i chose a male or female looking character at the start for what clothes are there.
    I get, when its complex modeled stuff, but in X/Y the models really weren't that much different and it was mostly different textures for the clothes. The split was arbitrary and reduced the options for all.

    Again: the "make all models more androgynous" is a different topic then "removing genders" and one where arguably expression is stifled when the extremes are pulled back and the dynamics of representable body shapes is flattened.
     
    I mean say what you will about the sloppiness of execution, and not maintaining 1:1 with their previous (somewhat insulting) options…

    but a character creator that lets me meaningfully adjust my features as a non-binary trans person — and also lets me adjust my fat proportions with more nuance and control than most things I’ve seen — is no small miracle on our faustian social plain
     
    I’m also gonna guess a lot of people didn’t reset their default idle poses, which makes them lean more like the older styles (there’s a “implied femme” and “implied masc” basic default pose and it seems like a lot of the “fridge” comments that aren’t exclusively fatphobia have to do with not adjusting that setting)
     
    aU2p7Kr.jpeg


    like, if you’re used to characters looking at least sort of like you in video games, I can’t explain to you how much it means to get that for the first time
     
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