I don’t think that even matters. FFXVI could have sold 8 million for the first week and Square execs will still find it disappointing somehow.
Yeah, if anything, it’s sold better than expected. Legs will show how good the WOM is.
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The Future of Final Fantasy, discussion thread
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D
Deleted member 2181
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I don't agree with this at all. My recollection is of universally effusive praise for 7 in the press when it came out. It was considered a masterpiece and a landmark title from the jump. Even here in the UK, where we had little experience with the previous games, it became a must-have purchase largely because of how well it was received by journalists. Frankly I think that it would be even higher than 92 if Metacritic had existed at that time.
Of course Metacritic doesn't accurately reflect the contemporary sentiment towards titles that existed before Meta did. That's true, and a good point. But let's not pretend that Final Fantasy 7 wasn't held up there with Ocarina of Time and Metal Gear Solid as one of the defining games of the generation.
The series clearly isn't in the same place it used to be. Not in scores, not in sales, not in influence. That's part of the reason Final Fantasy 16 even exists in the form that it does.
Sturmgeist
Resident Hollow Knight and FFVII Superfan
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Super happy with those numbers, especially considering the install base. The way some people were talking, I was worried it wouldn’t even hit a million in the first week.
Sturmgeist
Resident Hollow Knight and FFVII Superfan
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I can’t confirm, but I’ve seen a few people say this is the fastest selling PS5 exclusive to date (GoWR was PS4/PS5). I don’t know how anyone could spin this as disappointing.
SirArthur
Kremling
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Looking at how 15 had legs: dlc, pc port and another version (Royal).
We can expect a pc port of 16, but the rest are unknows. Solid start but uncharted waters for its legs. I know they are different but I expect rebirth to have that critical darling status so that might hurts its legs.
We can expect a pc port of 16, but the rest are unknows. Solid start but uncharted waters for its legs. I know they are different but I expect rebirth to have that critical darling status so that might hurts its legs.
JazzPotatoes
Koopa
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It depends entirely on how much Square invested in the game, and how much they were hoping this game would improve sales over the last few mainline FF releases.
Three million is objectively a big number, but we all know how seriously Square take their sales expectations. If they invested a lot of money into XVI in the hope that it would grow the franchise audience and sell better than the last few games, then it's not a promising start.
Maybe legs will carry it, but we'll have to wait and see. 2023 is a packed year, and competition is stiff.
Linkstrikesback
Bounty Hunter
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Any other major franchise declining like FFXV to 7R to this would be treated as a series in need of a severe overhaul. At a time when the industry is largely still seeing growth in premiere franchise, FF contracting is going to be a cause of concern for square for sure.
Yeah, there's a good chance that's true but that's a very loaded statement. Have you looked at the list of how many games are actually ps5 exclusive?
It's a very short list. Basically everything that could have reasonably been an exclusive is on PS4, PC, or both as well as ps5.
Yeah, there's a good chance that's true but that's a very loaded statement. Have you looked at the list of how many games are actually ps5 exclusive?
It's a very short list. Basically everything that could have reasonably been an exclusive is on PS4, PC, or both as well as ps5.
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Ultimately, i think at one point SQEX have to ask themselves if it's okay to more or less stagnate around sales projections of previous games in times where AAA development gets more expensive by the week.
And it's a question that has to be asked when looking at other IPs with similar ages like Zelda, Resident Evil (and for the sake of it) GoW.
There was much talk about "reinventing" with FF XVI, so while i do say the first week sales are good, i also have to ask if they're good enough given above examples of similar long running IPs all had entries that reinvented/redefined the series, resulting in partially massive growth.
The thing about install base of a console is btw. a very double edged sword. For both sides.
Bigger install base meaning a better chance to lure in more sales is of course a logical thing. But there's a lot of context you need to add, like for example the fact that JRPGs tend to be very frontloaded with little to no legs afterwards.
Plus, with a big release like a new FF game, quite a few people will get consoles for.
In the end, i'd say that both sides have a valid viewpoint and whoever ends up being right will be decided in a year or more when it's safe to say that the game has passed it's sales peak.
TL/DR: For a definitive statement of how good/great or maybe not so good the sales are, there's a lot of context information required that we're prolly never gonna get.
And it's a question that has to be asked when looking at other IPs with similar ages like Zelda, Resident Evil (and for the sake of it) GoW.
There was much talk about "reinventing" with FF XVI, so while i do say the first week sales are good, i also have to ask if they're good enough given above examples of similar long running IPs all had entries that reinvented/redefined the series, resulting in partially massive growth.
The thing about install base of a console is btw. a very double edged sword. For both sides.
Bigger install base meaning a better chance to lure in more sales is of course a logical thing. But there's a lot of context you need to add, like for example the fact that JRPGs tend to be very frontloaded with little to no legs afterwards.
Plus, with a big release like a new FF game, quite a few people will get consoles for.
In the end, i'd say that both sides have a valid viewpoint and whoever ends up being right will be decided in a year or more when it's safe to say that the game has passed it's sales peak.
TL/DR: For a definitive statement of how good/great or maybe not so good the sales are, there's a lot of context information required that we're prolly never gonna get.
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This one is going to be a fun one. Especially regarding the "is it a RPG or not" discourse.
'Cause:
- It is a (J)RPG -> sales will be frontloaded and legs might be weak
- It is a Character Action Game (with light RPG elements) -> legs might be better than expected.
james
continued history of ill-mannered behavior
this is incoherent. the numbers are right there lol. metacritic and gamerankings both existed in the late 90s/early 00s anyway, not too far removed from games like ff7 and oot.
its as an accurate a representation of the games media's sentiment at the time as metacritic is now. the media now is just larger. most prestigious games series lose a few points (or more) when you quintuple the number of people assinging a score tp it. hell, botw and totk arent sitting at ocarina of times quite lofty 99 (with 22 reviews)
ziggyrivers
thunder
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It’s insane how KINGDOM HEARTS is even more of a better managed IP than
“The wheel’s already been invented”
As in: you shouldn’t do too much work for something that’s pre-established and easy to do.
In the case of FINAL FANTASY XVI: I PRESUME Square Enix’s Marketing Department or PR Firm did a Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities & Threats (SWOT) Analysis. Theres are short term and medium term stuff they can address to try to strengthen the game’s sales. Extend its legs, like Hajime Tabata did with FFXV. They don’t need to do the same strategies, but there is something they can do. SWOT analyses are usually recorded and passed around to help future endeavors not repeat the same mistakes.
Square’s Final Fantasy Committee, or whatever it’s called, should review the last three to five FF titles and see what they can do.
There’s a saying in Marketing:
“The wheel’s already been invented”
As in: you shouldn’t do too much work for something that’s pre-established and easy to do.
In the case of FINAL FANTASY XVI: I PRESUME Square Enix’s Marketing Department or PR Firm did a Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities & Threats (SWOT) Analysis. Theres are short term and medium term stuff they can address to try to strengthen the game’s sales. Extend its legs, like Hajime Tabata did with FFXV. They don’t need to do the same strategies, but there is something they can do. SWOT analyses are usually recorded and passed around to help future endeavors not repeat the same mistakes.
Square’s Final Fantasy Committee, or whatever it’s called, should review the last three to five FF titles and see what they can do.
Heron
Koopa
I feel like these sales are in line with expectations once we knew what the game was.
But disappointing compared to what they might have been when we still didn't, and the game could have been any kind of reinvention of the series.
For a high fantasy character action game, this is good. For the future of Final Fantasy made by SE's best talent, another decline from XV and FF7R isn't particularly great.
I do think there are still players (like me) who don't have PS5s, and as those people pick up new consoles (where the **** is the PS5 slim, Sony) or as the game is ported to PC or elsewhere, the game's legs will be stronger than a typical JRPG. But you still can't help but feel like a new final fantasy should be hitting a bit harder than this, both in sales and in terms of the general social media reaction I've seen, and I think SE will still be looking at a different direction for FF17.
But disappointing compared to what they might have been when we still didn't, and the game could have been any kind of reinvention of the series.
For a high fantasy character action game, this is good. For the future of Final Fantasy made by SE's best talent, another decline from XV and FF7R isn't particularly great.
I do think there are still players (like me) who don't have PS5s, and as those people pick up new consoles (where the **** is the PS5 slim, Sony) or as the game is ported to PC or elsewhere, the game's legs will be stronger than a typical JRPG. But you still can't help but feel like a new final fantasy should be hitting a bit harder than this, both in sales and in terms of the general social media reaction I've seen, and I think SE will still be looking at a different direction for FF17.
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The biggest thing that could hurt 16's legs is that 7 rebirth is right around the corner. 15 had years by itself as the main single player console FF, 16 won't even get a year.
ziggyrivers
thunder
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Give us FINAL FANTASY XV Remake, Square
That’s what the fans want
That’s what the fans want
D
Deleted member 2181
Guest
Far enough removed to not track their reception at the time. I mean, obviously? Do you think that only 20 critics reviewed Final Fantasy 7? In the UK alone in the 90s, there were dozens of games magazines. At least three multiplatform ones that I can remember (CVG, Edge, Gamesmaster) and then all of the platform-specific ones as well as general technology ones that had overlap and also reviewed games.
Here's an idea of what the contemporary reception to Final Fantasy 7 was, just based on a quick search:
Round Up: Here's What Reviewers Made Of Final Fantasy 7 Back In 1997
We take a closer look at the reaction to this Squaresoft classic
www.timeextension.com
Ocarina of Time has long enjoyed status as defacto GOAT, but at the time, Final Fantasy 7 was held in pretty much equal regard and their respective merits and flaws were argued about between fans endlessly. I think comparing that to Final Fantasy 16 is basically a set-up.
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I want FF VI HD2D remake by Team Asano, though.
PixelKnight
Observing the process
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Yeah that’s the dream FF game for me at this point.
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ziggyrivers
thunder
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Yes, that first. Funny enough, I was checking the Pixel Remasters yesterday and:
• I’m not paying $74.99 for lazy ports;
— Speaking of lazy ports, the selection of text is horrendous during dialogues, like… It makes the GBA Enhanced Ports look phenomenal
thoughthaver
Chain Chomp
is the smrpg outselling a ff game dream alive
james
continued history of ill-mannered behavior
Far enough removed to not track their reception at the time. I mean, obviously? Do you think that only 20 critics reviewed Final Fantasy 7? In the UK alone in the 90s, there were dozens of games magazines. At least three multiplatform ones that I can remember (CVG, Edge, Gamesmaster) and then all of the platform-specific ones as well as general technology ones that had overlap and also reviewed games.
Here's an idea of what the contemporary reception to Final Fantasy 7 was, just based on a quick search:
Round Up: Here's What Reviewers Made Of Final Fantasy 7 Back In 1997
We take a closer look at the reaction to this Squaresoft classic
Ocarina of Time has long enjoyed status as defacto GOAT, but at the time, Final Fantasy 7 was held in pretty much equal regard and their respective merits and flaws were argued about between fans endlessly. I think comparing that to Final Fantasy 16 is basically a set-up.
to be clear i dont really care about ocarinas reception as compared to ff7s. i realize since we're on a nintendo fanboy board bringing it up may have made it seem that way. tho one of those games' legacy is obviously far more objectively important to the overall medium of games moving forward, i thought both were pretty neato at the time myself
also i think every review in that article you linked is counted on the metacritic page for ff7 so i dont know what its supposed to mean.
all im saying is that if you compiled 100 peoples reviews of ff7 in 1997 the aggregate would be a few points lower than 92. it would be the same for any game.
ziggyrivers
thunder
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Beanstar40
Chain Chomp
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Eh, my life is too stressful for me to spend mental energy worrying about the state of a games sales these days. I suppose the market will decide. I think the games alright.
Yamanoi
I paid $70 for this tag
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Sometimes I need to double check I'm on the right forum when I read posts here.
D
Deleted member 2181
Guest
No?
CVG isn't. Edge isn't. GameInformer isn't. Gamefan isn't. Gamepro isn't. Next Generation isn't. PSM isn't.
So over half of them aren't on Metacritic. Of those, only Edge gave it a score below its current Metacritic average (lol, some things never change).
And that's scratching the surface, as I mentioned - there were many, many more outlets at the time. But as someone who would religiously flick through pretty much all these magazines at the time, I don't remember seeing Final Fantasy 7 scoring less than a 9 in any of them. It got lots of perfect scores. That's my memory of it, based on the UK press. Which was sizeable in itself. The idea that aggregating this out over a 100+ reviews (which I suspect would have existed at the time considering all the per-country print that existed), it would score less than 92 doesn't make sense to me, not only because it conflicts with what I saw, but also the general tone of reception. What you're saying to me is that Final Fantasy 7 didn't even achieve God of War: Ragnarok levels of acclaim. Like, come on.
ziggyrivers
thunder
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Yeah, it’s not like other Square titles have reached the millions and the company has said it’s a failure.
Especially the backpedaling they did with “no PC version” to “we’re working on it”.
Didn’t even think of this. Yeah, 7R could cut off 16’s legs.
Count me in, I want HD2D FFVI.
Honestly think SMRPG is getting a little overhyped in the same way Metroid Prime Remaster was, but with the Mario Movie boost and anecdotal experience, I kinda think it might be possible? It would be really funny if it does happen.
Evil Lucario
Star Successor
3 million seems pretty on brand with Sony first-party sales so that's pretty good. And when considering the install base, it makes it even better.
Have a lot of friends who are greatly enjoying it as well. I'll jump in once my backlog clears because that demo was great.
Have a lot of friends who are greatly enjoying it as well. I'll jump in once my backlog clears because that demo was great.
OP
OP
SpaceGodzilla
Did You Get that Thing I Sent You?
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? Are you talking about smaller aa sony games or aaa sony games because the later generally sell much better in its first 3 days than ff16 did in its first week
james
continued history of ill-mannered behavior
hey my fault, i coulda sworn i saw a few of those names on there when i looked the other day.
being real with you tho, i still dont think that matters. its an observable trend that game reviews skew lower these days. the sheer number of recorded opinions plays a role in this. keep in mind we're talking about a 4 point difference in metacritic scores to begin with. im not saying ff7 wouldve had a tanked metacritic score, but it probably wouldnt be above 90.
important edit because it just hit me how deep in the weeds i am in a conversation about something i ultimately hate: metacritic is stupid bullshit and i do genuinely wish we wouldn't use the metacritic number as a standard for what is acclaimed or important or whatever. meaningful criticism about games takes time to produce, and almost always comes in a form that isnt metacritic friendly.
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Evil Lucario
Star Successor
The highest would be God of War Ragnarok at 5.1 million in a week, which is a cross-gen game between PS4 and PS5.
God of War 2018: 3.1 million in 3 days
Ghost of Tsushima: 2.4 million in 3 days
The Last of Us Part II: 4 million in 3 days
No such data for Forbidden West's first week sales, but it's around 8 million right now. Ratchet and Clank was around 1 million near launch but that's harder to pin down considering it's a launch window game.
And keep in mind all of those huge selling games launched on huge install bases, bigger than the PS5.
LonkFromPA
Koopa
Ratio + TotK sold 10M in 3 days + FF16 fell off + L + Cope + don't care + didn't ask + L part 2 + Clive is benched + Link can beat up Clive + Sus + This is a cry for help
thoughthaver
Chain Chomp
I'm literally the only person that thinks it will happen so it's not getting overhyped ergo it will happen now
anyway this game is following the ff7r sales trajectory to a tee so i predict between 6-8 million when its all said and done. which is kinda mid given it's supposed to be a heavyweight series.
Aether
Kremling
pretty much.
Evil Lucario
Star Successor
One more thing that people have conveniently forgotten. FF16 is a $70 game, not a $60 game. God of War Ragnarok is $60 on PS4 and Forbidden West can be $60 on PS5.
Of course sales would be down, it's more expensive! Tears of the Kingdom selling a bunch is really just a big outlier and the only time a $70 game actually did gangbusters over the previous.
Of course sales would be down, it's more expensive! Tears of the Kingdom selling a bunch is really just a big outlier and the only time a $70 game actually did gangbusters over the previous.
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So many ways to read this post
fourfourfun
Moblin
That should have been XII.
HockeyBird
Villager
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If FF 16 was $60, do you think sales would be exceptionally higher? Probably not. Games costs $70 now because companies know they can sell the games for $70 without losing a substantial amount of sales. If someone wants FF16, they'll buy it for $60 and they'll buy it for $70. And if someone doesn't want FF16, a $10 difference isn't going to change their mind.
The higher price wasn't conveniently forgotten. People just know that the price increase wasn't going to have a meaningful impact on sales.
wolftendo
Shiny hunter wolf
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I was about to say this LOL, LMAO even.
But yeah, not a big decline but a decline nonetheless.
Evil Lucario
Star Successor
We have data that says $70 games do reduce game unit sales so yeah, I do believe if it was $60, more people would jump in and pump up more numbers. How much more, we won't ever truly know. But it absolutely impacts buying habits and would shift game sales between other releases in a priority list.
Those games are sold-through though, not shipped. This isn't a pound for pound comparison.
Also install base for PS5 is ~40 million right now which is more than enough already, software sales don't scale linearly with hardware. It does help, but only so much past a certain threshold. FF games also don't tend to have good legs which means it's a core franchise and the fans are usually there day 1.
Anyway it's within the range i was expecting WW, solid start but not amazing.
But at the end of the day it's still a decline from both XV and VII R.
HockeyBird
Villager
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I knew that link would go to that poorly made article where the author concludes that games are selling because of the $70. How about we examine the actual graph
We can see that there's a spike in sales in 2020 and then a decline after. Can you tell me what happened in 2020 that might make people purchase more games in that specific year and why there is a decline after that peak? It was a pretty big event if you don't recall but I can tell you that wasn't because of switch from $60 to $70. If this article was a scientific paper, it would be ripped to shreds.
The fact of the matter is that games continued to sell well at $70. If publishers thought a 16.7% would result in a 16.7% or more decrease in total sales, they wouldn't change that the price. They upped the price because they knew it would net them more money while making a negligible impact on total game sales.
JorgenRaft
Chain Chomp
Cough.
