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The Future of Final Fantasy, discussion thread

At the same time, I’m totally OK with SE giving me 2DHD games instead, and the barrage of new IP they launched last Autumn too. What FF has become isn’t what I want any more, and that’s OK, most AAA stuff isn’t, and there’s a ton of rpgs directly catering to what I do want that only get a fraction of the marketing and media coverage.
Thiiiisssss

As negative as I've been on this game sales-wise, I still want to get my hands on it at some point. I just don't see a need to run out and get a PS5 just for it though. Until there's a version on Nintendo hardware or PC GPU prices come down to something resembling "reasonable" I'm perfectly content with the 2DHD titles, Bravely Default, and other projects to scratch my JRPG itch.
 
I feel the difference between this new direction and Zelda is the Zelda team very much wanted to bring the series back to the more exploration-heavy aspect of the early 2D games. They did take inspiration from modern open world games like Skyrim, but also found ways to incorporate a lot of the classic Zelda aspects, both 2D and 3D, into the new games.

I can’t say if 16’s changes will pay off until it comes out, it’s totally possible they made a fantastic game that stands on its own, but I do think the general lack of cohesion the brand has nowadays will be an issue in terms of approachability. FF games always changed stuff but there was still a lot of shared DNA. Does the name “Final Fantasy” really mean much to average consumers these days? It just feels all over the place. I’d like a PC release too please
 
"Character actions" isn't a genre. There's just action games, which is a very popular genre with games that sell 10m+.

What, are "character action" games different from "normal" action games because....they have really good combat mechanics?
Even if they are the same genre there is a big difference if the combat is spam x and dodge soemtimes or press x while holding why while piling the joystick back and springing forth afterwards hold y while rapidly twisting the joystick to launch a stun projectile.


There is a ginaoirmous difference in feel between games like dmc and ff7 r.

It’s kind of a mix between action game and fighting game.

Those good combat mechanics aren’t good, they’re different. Some people don’t want to learn complicated combo strings, they just wanna spam a button.
 
I'm in such a weird place with this game.

On one hand, I'm mostly on the same page as the devs.
Final Fantasy used to be the premier RPG series, and now it is being outsold many times over by the likes of Witcher 3 & Skyrim. They obviously have to do something. For all the "it has no identity" that people keep saying, my possibly outdated view is that Final Fantasy does have an identity, and it primarily revolves around it being expensive. High-budget, high quality, ambitious, sprawling, with the best artists, composers and writers in the industry putting in their best work. Final Fantasy on a Xenoblade budget isn't Final Fantasy anymore.

For a lot of the other decisions they've taken, I think it hinges on what one of the devs said about the negative connotations of the JRPG label. That the "genre" is now niche isn't something that is in much dispute on here I think, but the more controversial part is what was unsaid: That the negative reputation is partly earned. In the interest of keeping this post brief, I'll just say that I think higher fidelity brought with it higher specificity, and that was unfortunate. And also that technical limitations were a blessing in many ways. And also that many developers seem to continue to just do what has always been done, never asking themselves if it continues to make sense.
And in XVI, they're asking those questions, right? And I agree with them, if you're going to have this photorealisticish art style with people that look like normal people, having them standing around taking turns to hit each other is going to look kinda weird.
They're right that you can't convey a massive, globe-spanning story with an open-world format, and that you need some level of limitation or abstraction to convey a real sense of scale.
It also doesn't make sense to aim a single-player, story-driven game almost exclusively at the teen audience. I don't think they necessarily need to go adult - I think Nintendo EPD finds great success with its "all ages" strategy, but yeah, having something that isn't kind of embarrassing if you're older than 16 is probably a good idea given the expected age of the people buying this sort of game.

So my expectation, based on all that, and based on other things the devs have said, is that this would be a kind of, like, a serious fantasy world that you can immerse yourself in. Imagine my surprise when I see the trailers and it has characters doing silly combos in the air and over-the-top kaiju battles. The devs cited Game of Thrones, but this looks like Power Rangers.
And I have to square this against YoshiP's absolutely dumb-as-shit comments with regards to diversity. He has the incorrect belief that medieval Europe was a racial monoculture AND he thinks the game he's making has to stay true to its medieval setting and nothing must compromise its purity. Except, clearly, the gameplay.
It's also totally unnecessary. Witcher 3 and Skyrim didn't do gangbusters because of their combat. It just isn't the defining feature of an RPG. Will combat be the defining feature of Final Fantasy 16? I don't know! It's all they talk about it. But for all we know, it has a narrative, side stories, characters, world-building, all of these things on the same level as Witcher 3. You'd never guess based on what they show us, though, right?
I mean the first video of this game I watched, within twenty seconds the player was holding the trigger buttons in a scripted sequence to move a barrier in front of a door. ??? This is what they choose to show us??

I'm on team concern on the marketing for this one.
 
I'm in such a weird place with this game.

On one hand, I'm mostly on the same page as the devs.
Final Fantasy used to be the premier RPG series, and now it is being outsold many times over by the likes of Witcher 3 & Skyrim. They obviously have to do something.
I am pretty surprised that Nintendo is the one getting closer to a Japanese take on those things with Xenoblade and Zelda these days than anything Square Enix seems to be doing.
 
The fact these games cost so much that 10s of millions of units is still a loss tells me something is really wrong with this budgeting and scope.

As for me I am not super interested in this title. I am fascinated in what comes next.

Id love Square to take a big risk and try to stylize the series again closer to the art of the older games. Or maybe make it more cartoony. Now that would shock me.
 
im a pretty casual jrpg fan but seeing this was really surprising to me.

I wasn't really all that excited about the game and wasnt planning to pick it up anytime soon when it was announced, as its realistic high fantasy world just didnt appeal to me or seem as inherently interesting as other games in the series, but the gameplay demos, and trailers just made the game look incredible
 
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im a pretty casual jrpg fan but seeing this was really surprising to me.

I wasn't really all that excited about the game and wasnt planning to pick it up anytime soon when it was announced, as its realistic high fantasy world just didnt appeal to me or seem as inherently interesting as other games in the series, but the gameplay demos, and trailers just made the game look incredible
I'm more excited to the kickstarter Wild Arms spiritual successor.
 
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It's really bizzare how S-E have wanted so desperately to shift away from being an RPG developer to becoming an action game developer for so very long. This shift has been going on for over 2 decades now, ever since the first Kingdom Hearts. Their games have been slowly shifting towards action more and more, almost as if they're ashamed of the RPG genre.

If it weren't for Team Asano and Tokyo RPG Factory, you would have to go back to the PS1 era to find an original non-action, non FF or DQ RPG from S-E. This transformation from RPG developer to action game developer has not just happened overnight, it has been slow and deliberate. This is the first time however, that S-E have managed to make a pure Stylish Action game, and the first time that they've done an action game in general completely inhouse; without an outside developer handling the bulk of the work.

Its taken more than 20 years, but S-E have finally achieved their dream. They have become the Capcom that they always wanted to.
 
Not to blow my own trumpet or anything but I feel like I'm the type of person who SE really should be aiming to sell the FF games to in order to grow their audience and achieve massive success. For clarity I have only ever played through 2 FF games to the end, the most recent 2, FF15 and FF7R. Both games I bought because of the massive hype behind them, the former especially as it came with that message that this is a FF for 'first timers as well as fans' or whatever. All I will say about that is that they forgot to include 'people who like boring games' as well but I digress.

Anyway what I'm trying to say is I really like a good, lengthy RPG game with nice graphics and combat so I should really be excited for this game... except I'm not. I can't put my finger on what it is exactly but the few trailers I've seen just turn me off it entirely. I played about the opening 20-30 minutes of Devil May Cry 5 on Game Pass and it was clear that I would never enjoy the combat so hearing that this game aims to have combat that rivals that is extremely disappointing. Have turn based combat like Chrono Trigger or Octopath Traveler, have combat that allows for emergent/systems driven experiences like TotK, heck even FFXV/7R's were fine despite not being amazing, basically anything but what they have gone for.

So yeah I could rant a bit more about how my more negative experiences of SE's recent releases have affected things, but I think I've made my point. I just don't know what FF wants to be anymore as this one just looks like it wants to be The Witcher 3 which yeah good luck with that.

Also without checking the PSN Store it's probably £70 isn't it, so again good luck with that.
 
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Kinda doubt that that any lacking in sales would come down to the quality or direction of the game at this point. SE keep pumping out all kinds of rad games in general, but they are just awful at actually selling them. I'm not exactly a marketing whiz but I think it's clear as day they are some of the worst in the business at it.
 
If this is true, marketing has fumbled by focusing on combat.

JRPGs typically sell on character and charm. Where's the party banter? What are fans supposed to draw fanart of? What are the main ships? Maybe I've missed some big trailer showcasing all of this but I have no idea who these characters are besides looking angry and/or miserable. There's just that fantasy!Days Gone looking dude, Clive.

I also understand this game does not want to be a "JRPG". It wants to be the new Witcher 3, only white people allowed and all. I guess! Problem is, The Witcher 3 did not sell 50m units on its combat. So why are they pouring all their marketing budget into that when XIV fans will swear up and down this team can land a stellar story campaign with top-tier writing? Perhaps marketing hands are tied due to spoilers, idk, but what I've seen so far hasn't hooked me.

At this point I feel like they're counting on critical reception and audience WoM post-release to meet expectations. Which could totally happen, of course, if the XIV cult enthusiast club is anything to go by
 
Well, personal story, but they definitely miss one sale from me. I bought FF XV at launch, kinda because i didn't have much else to play on the PS4 at that time and partially because i really hoped that it might've been a good FF game for once again.

But nothing i've seen form XVI gave me any interesting feeling for it.

The world just looks boring, so do the characters.
Those Eidolon fights ... dunno they feel like they're "bombast" just for the sake of it.

And the game system/fighting system ... i have no probs with action RPGs, there are lots of good ones. But they're still action RPGs.
Imo, XVI looks like they went way too far with the action to the point where i asked myself if i'm watching a game like Bayo or DMC, and while almost done, remembered that there should be some RPG things too.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. If one doesn't agree, that's okay. Wish those who look forward to it lots of fun with the game.
 
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The more "western-styled" (bad descriptor, I know) art direction and combat style have me hard out.

Maybe if this bombs it won't Square will finally break the emergency glass and remake Xenogears in HD2D or something. lol
 
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But XVI has done nothing for me. The gameplay just looks so uninteresting that I don’t even care to know anything about it’s setting, story or characters. Just not my type of gameplay.

It could be one of the best put together FF games of all time, but my word it is the dreariest game at a visual level.
 
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It's really bizzare how S-E have wanted so desperately to shift away from being an RPG developer to becoming an action game developer for so very long. This shift has been going on for over 2 decades now, ever since the first Kingdom Hearts. Their games have been slowly shifting towards action more and more, almost as if they're ashamed of the RPG genre.

If it weren't for Team Asano and Tokyo RPG Factory, you would have to go back to the PS1 era to find an original non-action, non FF or DQ RPG from S-E. This transformation from RPG developer to action game developer has not just happened overnight, it has been slow and deliberate. This is the first time however, that S-E have managed to make a pure Stylish Action game, and the first time that they've done an action game in general completely inhouse; without an outside developer handling the bulk of the work.

Its taken more than 20 years, but S-E have finally achieved their dream. They have become the Capcom that they always wanted to.
Isn't Square already an action game developer with the mana games? They just need to make it more mature.
 
Isn't Square already an action game developer with the mana games? They just need to make it more mature.

"More Mature"? Mana, a franchise and series notable for All Ages and targeted to Kids and Adults alike, even in the latest material?

What.
 
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Isn't Square already an action game developer with the mana games? They just need to make it more mature.
Kingdom Hearts is a far better example of a successful action series compared to Mana. Mana is effectively a dead franchise, hasn't had a non mobile non remake game since 2007. Even then most of the Mana games were mediocre and reviewed poorly.
 
Kingdom Hearts is a far better example of a successful action series compared to Mana. Mana is effectively a dead franchise, hasn't had a non mobile non remake game since 2007. Even then most of the Mana games were mediocre and reviewed poorly.
Well yeah but Legend of Mana is basically a pure action game. Now if they just revive the series and give it an AAA budget, wishful thinking I know.
 
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Part of the problem is Advent Children.

That film came out and got people  really excited about FF characters having big over the top swordfights with each other. XIII was originally marketed as having a combat system that would let you have big epic AC style swordfights, just with menu inputs. Crisis Core and FF7R both are riffing on bringing AC style fights to an action RPG framework.

To be fair, when I was a teenager, I thought the fights in AC were literally the coolest thing ever.
 
The fact these games cost so much that 10s of millions of units is still a loss tells me something is really wrong with this budgeting and scope.

As for me I am not super interested in this title. I am fascinated in what comes next.

Id love Square to take a big risk and try to stylize the series again closer to the art of the older games. Or maybe make it more cartoony. Now that would shock me.
This gam3 won't be a loss
 
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The dog. Everyone seems to love the dog.

If it ain't them, I don't want fan art of them.


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Well…. It’s a PS5 time exclusive, they took Sony’s money. They will probably make more as soon as they make a PC port and hopefully for Steam sometime next year
 
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Final Fantasy does have an identity,

I agree with this. Even playing XV, I could feel it exude Final Fantasy-ness. I do feel like they're having real trouble doing things with the game.

First of XII ruined things a little bit by pushing XIII off of PS2 onto PS3 and the catalogue of issues that came with HD development.

Then they just seemed to be completely ill at ease with putting a game into a solid structure. FFXIII went for continual pushing forwards corridor with incredibly tightly managed progression before slapping you into free roaming world. Then XV said "well people didn't receive that very well" and slapped a huge expansive free roam up front before shutting the door on that entirely and going into the story based corridor.

It just seems like they are unable to mesh their traditional way of telling stories that worked so well throughout the PS1 era, with modern gameplay structures.
 
I agree with this. Even playing XV, I could feel it exude Final Fantasy-ness. I do feel like they're having real trouble doing things with the game.

First of XII ruined things a little bit by pushing XIII off of PS2 onto PS3 and the catalogue of issues that came with HD development.

Then they just seemed to be completely ill at ease with putting a game into a solid structure. FFXIII went for continual pushing forwards corridor with incredibly tightly managed progression before slapping you into free roaming world. Then XV said "well people didn't receive that very well" and slapped a huge expansive free roam up front before shutting the door on that entirely and going into the story based corridor.

It just seems like they are unable to mesh their traditional way of telling stories that worked so well throughout the PS1 era, with modern gameplay structures.
Which is weird, because the showed they could do non linear "open world" story telling with Final Fantasy 6 in 1994. Yes, I know making 3D open world games is a lot harder then 2D ones.

Ironically, I think FFXV's road trip set up would have worked a lot better if it was a linear game. Have a 20-30 hour road trip game where the player is constantly visiting new towns and getting wrapped up in their struggles would make a ton of sense. That's more or less how classic FF games worked even if the player didn't realize they were being railroaded most of the time.
 
Which is weird, because the showed they could do non linear "open world" story telling with Final Fantasy 6 in 1994. Yes, I know making 3D open world games is a lot harder then 2D ones.

And FFXII seemed to be stepping in the right direction too. Big fat world, go explore, they managed to find enough ways to wall things off to stop you skipping ahead and it told a story. Ok, a story far less bombastic than their usual one, but it did it.
 
That's more or less how classic FF games worked even if the player didn't realize they were being railroaded most of the time.
That's pretty much how most S-E games worked in the 80s/90s, maybe aside from SaGa. You're on rails for about 80% of the game and then the last 20% they basically say "hey there's stuff out in the world for you to do and find, go get 'em".
 
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If XIII had come out at the end of the PS2's lifetime, it would have given them the time and scope to deliver whatever came next. Instead, they were pushed.
I don't believe that at all. SE has struggled with in-house tech, even to this day. FF13 was always going to be a challenge for them and the disaster that was Final Fantasy 14 was going to be a looming cloud that would hurt whatever got caught in that storm
 
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13's development on the PS3 was far more a result of the reaction to the FF7 tech demo. It's likely it would have moved platforms regardless of how protracted 12's cycle turned out to be.
 
13 on PS2 didn't even seem to get far as they were still doing art tests and only had a combat segment. though you can see they had a direction for the UI that would evolve into the final one

It's weird that label it as 13 instead of 10-3.
 
If XIII had come out at the end of the PS2's lifetime, it would have given them the time and scope to deliver whatever came next. Instead, they were pushed.
This is past the point where there's much staff carryover from one FF title to the next, and multiple games were being worked on concurrently. If they'd wanted to work on XIII simultaneously as a PS2 game and end up releasing it as XII if the other XII had development hell, they could have done that.
 
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I was initially excited but their focus on the dmc style combat and those eikon fights they keep promoting have hampered my excitement tremendously
 
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It will do fine, but i think if they truly want to see big numbers, it needs to be multi-plat not exclusive to a console that has a fraction of the installed base of everything out there.
 
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this game has the artstyle of one of those shitty MMOs that only show up in pop up ads so yeah I can see why some people are bouncing off. plus the whole "whites only" nonsense.
 
The problem might just be that they couldn't convince people so far that it's not a DMC-like combat system, because it sure looks like it, even though going by previews FF XVI's combat seems to be much more straightforward with only one melee attack button (square) and mixing this up with some magic combos/projectiles (triangle). It has the style, but on a fundamental level is seemingly missing the complexity, which should make it more attractive to a broader audience -- if they somehow would let them know as much...
I agree with you and others saying the game doesn't look to have DMC or Bayonetta's level of complexity. Though, I do think it's fair to point out the game does have a bit more going for it than just one melee attack on square and a magic missile on triangle. Each eikon also has a unique utility ability on circle (phoenix is like a tether that pulls you toward the enemy; titan is a shield you hold down). And you have two cooldown abilities per eikon that you access by holding down R2 I think. Then you equip three eikons at a time and can swap between them during battle to access a total of six cooldown skills like blade switching in Xenoblade 2. I believe later on you can transfer cooldown skills from one eikon to another as a sort of lite-job system.

It's kind of like some strange middle between DMC and Xenoblade 2. Personally, I think it looks fine. I played the DMCV demo and couldn't wrap my head around it, but FFXVI looks perfectly understandable to me from the videos I've seen.

edit: oh, and there's also puppy commands
 
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It's interesting going through this thread and seeing this in complete opposition to a bunch of friends I know who are hyped exactly for the combat and etc. Also a "normal" development cycle never hurts.
The problem might just be that they couldn't convince people so far that it's not a DMC-like combat system, because it sure looks like it, even though going by previews FF XVI's combat seems to be much more straightforward with only one melee attack button (square) and mixing this up with some magic combos/projectiles (triangle). It has the style, but on a fundamental level is seemingly missing the complexity, which should make it more attractive to a broader audience -- if they somehow would let them know as much...
I haven't kept up with the marketing because I kinda just wanted to wait for a demo to drop to sink my teeth into the combat (and therefore these could be stuff already in previews), but DMC also mostly has one melee attack button as well (Triangle). Circle only acts as a second melee attack button in Swordmaster which is a bit more "gimmicky", and all the other styles in DMC have something entirely different on Circle. What makes DMC sing is being able to style switch for different moves on Circle, having different melee combos that depend on pausing between certain button presses, holding lock-on and back or forward on the left stick to do High Time or Stinger or etc, as well as multiple different weapons with their own movesets that play entirely different from one another. All with basically only one melee attack button, with a second one only sparingly used here or there.

Games like Bayonetta or God of War, on the other hand, do have light and heavy melee attacks with their own combo strings that differ from DMC. And while Bayonetta ALSO has lock-on moves just like DMC, it also lacks other stuff like style switching or unlimited weapon switching.
 
I agree with you and others saying the game doesn't look to have DMC or Bayonetta's level of complexity. Though, I do think it's fair to point out the game does have a bit more going for it than just one melee attack on square and a magic missile on triangle. Each eikon also has a unique utility ability on circle (phoenix is like a tether that pulls you toward the enemy; titan is a shield you hold down). And you have two cooldown abilities per eikon that you access by holding down R2 I think. Then you equip three eikons at a time and can swap between them during battle to access a total of six cooldown skills like blade switching in Xenoblade 2. I believe later on you can transfer cooldown skills from one eikon to another as a sort of lite-job system.

It's kind of like some strange middle between DMC and Xenoblade 2. Personally, I think it looks fine. I played the DMCV demo and couldn't wrap my head around it, but FFXVI looks perfectly understandable to me from the videos I've seen.

edit: oh, and there's also puppy commands

It's interesting going through this thread and seeing this in complete opposition to a bunch of friends I know who are hyped exactly for the combat and etc. Also a "normal" development cycle never hurts.

I haven't kept up with the marketing because I kinda just wanted to wait for a demo to drop to sink my teeth into the combat (and therefore these could be stuff already in previews), but DMC also mostly has one melee attack button as well (Triangle). Circle only acts as a second melee attack button in Swordmaster which is a bit more "gimmicky", and all the other styles in DMC have something entirely different on Circle. What makes DMC sing is being able to style switch for different moves on Circle, having different melee combos that depend on pausing between certain button presses, holding lock-on and back or forward on the left stick to do High Time or Stinger or etc, as well as multiple different weapons with their own movesets that play entirely different from one another. All with basically only one melee attack button, with a second one only sparingly used here or there.

Games like Bayonetta or God of War, on the other hand, do have light and heavy melee attacks with their own combo strings that differ from DMC. And while Bayonetta ALSO has lock-on moves just like DMC, it also lacks other stuff like style switching or unlimited weapon switching.
Thank you two for bringing these points up! I guess it's necessary for me, then, to re-evaluate my perspective on the battle system to an extent.
Though I'd say you and others in this thread have made it clear by now that the combat indeed is pretty comparable to other action heavy games, both in terms of skill floor as well as potential ceiling. Interesting stuff!

In the end I'm very curious about how this'll do commercially with all these things in mind we've discussed here.
 
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I have to get that hot take out after reading the last couple of posts:

If people have to go somewhat deep into the combat systems of Bayonetta/DMC/other similar games in order to make a differentiation to the FF XVI combat system, then the latter is simply way to close to the former.
 
I have to get that hot take out after reading the last couple of posts:

If people have to go somewhat deep into the combat systems of Bayonetta/DMC/other similar games in order to make a differentiation to the FF XVI combat system, then the latter is simply way to close to the former.
I mean, the fact that FF16 has Enemy Step (jumping on enemies to reset your double jump and keeping yourself in the air, just like in Smash for a Nintendo example) basically already puts it in that category of games to a certain degree. And that's a great thing if you ask me.
 
We are really close to the final game, 16 days away even(!), and the demo is probably five days away so I’m glad this phase of the discussion will be wrapping up soon, but I do think for however much it is DMC flavored or not, I do think this game is going to be approachable and fun like a Kingdom Hearts or an Ys game for that first playthrough. There is no scoring / arcade features on the initial playthrough and Final Fantasy games are meant to be for everyone so I really feel good they are going to create a game people will enjoy if they give it a chance.

I think they’ve been mentioning the Devil May Cry connection a lot mainly to assure people this isn’t going to be like XV. I love both turn based combat and action games and while I still adored XV the worst thing about it was how it awkwardly didn’t commit to being an action game. This time the fundamentals should be good with the DMC guy behind it.
 
To allow for a different opinion than the general sentiment I'm getting from the thread, none of the advanced techniques would ever be required to be used. You can go through Bayonetta by just pressing PPPPP combos and dodging the entire time and still have fun. Less leeway for DMC where it'll ask you to launch and Stinger more, but the core fundamentals of combat is always wait for attack and attack back. And I doubt many people even utilize dodge offset in both Bayonetta and the new God of War games, one of the more basic high-level techniques, but they might still have fun due to the meat and potatoes of combat. Both DMC and Bayonetta also allow for auto-combos and Easy modes to provide less technical combat that way and then you'd get back to something like Ys where it's quick and not that involved by comparison.

Of course, no one has to like those types of games, but the skill floor of these games have all been super low and don't require you to express yourself at all. I think a lot of people get scared off by that complex stuff (and getting graded) when discussing action games when in reality, it's only as complex as you make it. Again, new God of War has dodge offsets to keep combos going if you're good enough but do people really talk about that? Not really, and people are none the wiser and enjoy the game without that clouding their judgment.
 


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