Aether
Tingle
I asume thats nat what he meant by grindfest, but that mmo design is inherently more about loot stuff then the usual jrpgs.
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Discussion Nintendo should make a powerful console.
- Thread starter CastletonSnob
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That still doesn’t say much lol I dropped it because it was still an MMO. It wasn’t as bad as 11 or WoW, but still. With an MMO it gets to the point where I’m just going through the motions of grinding dailies, dungeons…’still an MMO. A good one, but still an MMO. I reached 60 and just said “I’m good” lol
Simba1
Bob-omb
One thing is sure, only powerful Nintendo home console, would sell much less compared to Switch sales numbers,
power is not what selling Nintendo hardware, its games and features.
Also, miniDVD for GC was never real problem, because GC could use multiply discs if size of game is a problem, thats why GC actually got one best 3rd party support if we count Nintendo platforms, while cartridges were real problem for N64.
power is not what selling Nintendo hardware, its games and features.
Also, miniDVD for GC was never real problem, because GC could use multiply discs if size of game is a problem, thats why GC actually got one best 3rd party support if we count Nintendo platforms, while cartridges were real problem for N64.
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Simba1
Bob-omb
Nintendo is financially very very stable company, and they have something like around $10b reserves only in cash (actually Nintendo was richest company of Japan in 2020. link down), so offcourse they can make powerful console or even sale it at loss in 1st year like Sony or MS are doing, especially because they biggest part of profit comes from selling 1st party games.
But business model where they don't sell most expensive console on market or selling at loss, is model that Nintendo likes most,
but that doesnt mean they cant sell expansive console at loss.
Nintendo Is Reportedly Japan's Richest Company Of 2020
With billions in the bank
www.nintendolife.com
Simba1
Bob-omb
No, main reason why Nintendo handhelds were more successful then they consoles is because on handheld market there was always less competition and handhelds have much affordable price point compared to home consoles and you basically had very offten situation where people have more than one handheld from same generation per house.
So releasing another PS5/XsX clone would definitely not be best Nintendo business decision, Switch is best thing they could make,
also if you look Nintendo hardware sales numbers, you will see that both Wii and Switch pass 100m+ units sales, and in both cases Nintendo done something completely different compared to rest of market.
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You're not going to get a Nintendo console with the latest Bethesda games. You need an Xbox for those. Street Fighter is irrelevant to Japan but Drake could make it possible to port 4 and 5 and maybe even 6. Madden is not happening because EA hates Nintendo. NFL would basically have to force EA to port it.
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CastletonSnob
Moblin
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IIRC, EA hates Nintendo because they wanted the Wii U to use Origin, and Nintendo said no, and EA threw a tantrum.
Aether
Tingle
Well, it was still slightly propriatary and either you hade more cost for 2 discs and the coresponding alt housing, or you needed to shrink the data somewhat. And having data over 2 discs still needs reorganizing and kopying the data, more testing, etc.
It works, it was not ahuge cost factor, for shure. The GC had other problems, mainly PS2s "mature" image and its DVD capability.
The culture was just at a point where nintendo could not get through, and they WHERE strugling to finish internal projects in time (WW, Sunshine,...) so they kinda rushed them.
Essentially the PS2/XBox generation was the one where we had an increase of presence of western devs in console space, "mature" became generally more accepted (mature media generally), essentially the children and teens that got marketed to with "EXTREEEME" stum, got older.
That was not a time for nintendos strength to shine. After the N64 they needed something that was pure gold to fight Sonys PS in Europe and other parts of the world. The US was the strongest market of N64, but in the EU is was already bombing hard, and GC did not enough more then PS2, but a) was harder to pirate (one aspect that pushed PS1), and could not play dvds (and in europe, i think 80% of dvd players i saw in action where ps2s...)
I really cant see a world where nintendo would not have strugled with the GC, even with a normal DVD drive. Probably less then it has, but still far from a hit.
By 2006 DVDs Players where a cheap comodity, the ones who wanted them had them, and motion controlls where a true novelity...
Heck, thats a year before the IPhone 1 is anounced. What wild times we had back then.
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Deleted member 1324
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The new Switch will provide very nice looking Nintendo games using modern lighting and shading techniques and use DLSS for very high image quality. Most Nintendo games are already 60fps.
The main reason I see Nintendo staying away from PS5 level hardware and the visuals expected from hardware like that is the sheer manpower and this cost associated with producing those kind of AAA flagship experiences. Nintendo probably spent less money developing and marketing the entire Switch exclusive library (minus WiiU projects MK8 and BotW) than it cost Sony to fund Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart on PS5. Think about that for a second…
Raccoon
Fox Brigade
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This is the most important part. People so often think in silicon and forget the human element. EPD could not support the output people have come to expect at that level of fidelity.
Now, Nintendo could join the twins and continue to develop games at their current standard that would just run better, but they'd be visually outclassed by the third-party games on their system, and I don't know if they'd want that.
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Right. The HD transition was rough for a lot of Japanese developers during the PS360 era and it was just as rough for Nintendo during the Wii U era. They basically didn’t have the throughput to adequately support the Wii U and 3DS, and supporting two HD platforms would have been a total nonstarter, hence the Switch. (And even the Switch was helped a lot by having a library of complete HD Wii U games that Nintendo could easily resell.)
How many Japanese studios are pushing the envelope with 4K games?
Vito
Shriekbat
Yup.
I legit won't buy the next Nintendo hardware if it's not a continuation of the Switch.
If I want a console to use only on my TV then I have Sony for that.
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OH SHIT!!!!!A gun?
How about two?
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that was ubisoft, it doesn't count
Supreme Overlord
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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A gun?
How about two?
It's like taking candy from a baby -- Which is fine by me!
It's clearly Soliani's pitch to join Nintendo, so I think it counts.
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It's true. I'm paraphrasing a conversation Soliani and Miyamoto had based on past interviews:
Soliani: Can I make a Nintendo game?
Miyamoto: I don't know. Can you make it real badass?
Soliani: What if Mario has guns?
Miyamoto: That's real badass! Make it, ship it, we'll headhunt you later.
Shinespark
Bob-omb
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To add to this this point about the human element, people ignore the different weight class Nintendo operates in. Microsoft has around 180k employees, Sony has 100k, and Nintendo has 6,500. Sony/Microsoft are massive companies that have the expertise, workforce, and negotiating power to drive prices down in the supply chain.
Everyone points to the GameCube being the last time Nintendo was at the cutting edge and assumes Nintendo stopped trying. What really changed is that the fundamental advantages of Sony/Microsoft resulted in a hardware spending growth trajectory that exceeds Nintendo.
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I had a Nintendo console with Mario, Zelda, Final Fantasy, Madden, Resident Evil, Metal Gear Solid, Tales, Soulcalibur. I thought it was pretty cool, but the market didn't much care.
Simba1
Bob-omb
Agree, saying simple GC failed or PS2 sold much more just because GC MiniDVD discs is wrong, and definitely not comparable with huge N64 cartridges problem.
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I feel like people on enthusiast forums tend to overestimate how much the market actually cares about power. I feel like most people are just there for the games/ecosystem
Nintendo's efforts are probably best spent building relationships with third parties, which they've honestly been doing a pretty good job with lately
Nintendo's efforts are probably best spent building relationships with third parties, which they've honestly been doing a pretty good job with lately
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Maybe "power" is a bad way to state this, but architecture certainly matters. It influences which consoles that companies support with their games to a considerable degree.
I do agree that games matter, too. I think variety matters more than having specific IP: The Gamecube and WiiU bombed, and people here would overwhelmingly praise those libraries, after all.
I'd say some equation of architecture + game variety + games from popular IP + ecosystem is what would give us a way to calculate the "perfect" console.
Aether
Tingle
Its simply a to small to slow course correction. Still propriatary to not pay for licencing fees and have it under control, trying to be "mature" but only partially catching on, but for the most part i would say they never hd a chance. PS Piracy and DVD hype where just to big of a factor to ignore. (+ The PS2 had a banging lineup in the first year)
For shure. Architecture infliences what games and how easy they can get to the system, how fast it is to develop, etc.
And while games dont need to be cutting edge to win, you should not look to far behind (at least back then, we are getting in a place where for some games like Animal Crossing or Mario Kart it kinda becomes irrelevant how powerfull the console is...)
Tentacle-tropes
Kremling
By Nintendo’s own talk at the end of the GC & into the Wii they definitely did not care for the way the industry was going in a multitude of areas. Once of these was the rapid increase in power which studios were not prepared to develop for. So, in a sense Nintendo did stop trying after the Cube to make cutting edge graphic technology instead they put that into others areas.
Caviar
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Blaming Gamecube's failure on mini-discs just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. All of Nintendo's most successful platforms have used proprietary storage and have been incompatible with popular media formats of the day. Switch has been criticized for its expensive, limited-space game cartridges. It doesn't play any of your DVDs or CDs. It doesn't even have Netflix.
But uhh...
The market does not appear to care.
That problem was mostly applicable to the N64 generation only, when cartridge costs were astronomically higher than CDs and could store only a small fraction of the data. It would take over 100 N64 cartridges to hold Final Fantasy VII, it would ship in a large briefcase, and probably cost consumers a few thousand dollars. It was a unique problem of that one particular console.
But uhh...
The market does not appear to care.
That problem was mostly applicable to the N64 generation only, when cartridge costs were astronomically higher than CDs and could store only a small fraction of the data. It would take over 100 N64 cartridges to hold Final Fantasy VII, it would ship in a large briefcase, and probably cost consumers a few thousand dollars. It was a unique problem of that one particular console.
Foltzie
Uncle Muji
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Indeed, DVD being included in the PS2 ABSOLUTELY drove sales as the PS2 was cheaper than other DVD players of that era. But the PS2 shipped a full year ahead of the Gamecube. I would posit DVD advantage was mostly spent in terms of extra sales by the time the Gamecube launched (at $100 cheaper than the PS2). Maybe easier piracy drove some PS2 sales (though it was more relevant for PS1). But really, I suspect its a combination of the DVD push and successfully converting PS1 users into PS2 users.
Gamecube did little to tempt users to buy third party games on the Gamecube outside of Soul Caliber 4, Resident Evil 4, ect.
I know a few developers complained about the disk size, but I would wager that was cover for lousy unit sales. Many US based 3rd parties just didnt move units on the Gamecube.
As you point out the Switch isn't using a standard formate (other than Micro-SD), but really its being portable that makes the Switch valuable to users. Cheaper doesn't hurt either.
9-Volt
Adept
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Bad comparison. Switch is a handheld, unrivaled in the whole market. A market they completely own where the demand is always high. Also Switch is literally the least criticized/controversial console Nintendo has ever made. It's the closest one to perfection.Blaming Gamecube's failure on mini-discs just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. All of Nintendo's most successful platforms have used proprietary storage and have been incompatible with popular media formats of the day. Switch has been criticized for its expensive, limited-space game cartridges. It doesn't play any of your DVDs or CDs. It doesn't even have Netflix.
But uhh...
The market does not appear to care.
That problem was mostly applicable to the N64 generation only, when cartridge costs were astronomically higher than CDs and could store only a small fraction of the data. It would take over 100 N64 cartridges to hold Final Fantasy VII, it would ship in a large briefcase, and probably cost consumers a few thousand dollars. It was a unique problem of that one particular console.
Gamecube was launched in a time where home console competition was super stiff and not having enough third party support effectively put them in the last place. Nintendo fixed many of GCN's problems with Wii, including releasing it more in markets, games for wider audiences and very strong third party support.
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If the GameCube not using standard DVDs is what killed it, the Wii (which also didn't use standard DVDs) wouldn't have been so successful.
The GameCube was killed by the same thing that killed the Dreamcast, unstoppable competition in the form of the PS2, with the added factor of the GameCube launching 12-18 months after the PS2. The PS2 just had so much momentum by fall 2001; GameCube never really had a chance, and it never really got that lightning-in-a-bottle sticky multiplayer game that the PS2 couldn't match, like the Xbox did with Halo, which sort of inherited the N64's GoldenEye/Perfect Dark crowd.
The GameCube was killed by the same thing that killed the Dreamcast, unstoppable competition in the form of the PS2, with the added factor of the GameCube launching 12-18 months after the PS2. The PS2 just had so much momentum by fall 2001; GameCube never really had a chance, and it never really got that lightning-in-a-bottle sticky multiplayer game that the PS2 couldn't match, like the Xbox did with Halo, which sort of inherited the N64's GoldenEye/Perfect Dark crowd.
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CastletonSnob
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What proof is there that if Nintendo made a powerful console on par with Sony and Microsoft's consoles, third parties WOULDN'T put games on it? And what proof is there that more people WOULDN'T buy a Nintendo console that was more powerful and had better third party support? You really think there aren't people who would buy a Nintendo console with Madden, CoD, Assassin's Creed, or GTA?
And don't say the N64 or GameCube, because I've already covered why they didn't get third party support.
And don't say the N64 or GameCube, because I've already covered why they didn't get third party support.
Raccoon
Fox Brigade
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the switch has just sold so unfathomably well
I don't think more people would buy an x86 console
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That’s not this discussion works. You put forth a claim, have been refuted on multiple fronts by multiple people citing multiple reasons, and are now putting the burden of proof on them when it rests with you as the one challenging the conventional reasoning.
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you're asking for proof of things that haven't happened??? lmao
If people want COD or Madden or GTA, they buy an Xbox or Playstation. Different companies cater to different markets. Chef Boyardee ain't makin fresh gourmet pasta. Ferrari ain't making a Honda Civic-equivalent.
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CastletonSnob
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I'm sure there are people who would buy a Nintendo console for those games.
Having more games is always a good thing.
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The Wii did use standard DVDs, they were just formatted in a way that made them unreadable in normal drives unlike the PS2/Xbox/Xbox 360. It's why you have to use a Wii or Wii U to rip disc images from them. Same for the GC and Wii U, both use standard media (MiniDVD and Blu-Ray) with non-standard formatting. The MiniDVD thing is more of an explanation about why third-party support on GC was worse compared to the other two systems and Nintendo being stubborn and boneheaded regarding optical media. Didn't have any real problems once they moved off of the MiniDVDs.
You are pretty much the money with regards to the overall reason the system failed. It came out too late to compete with the PS2, Nintendo's first-party failed to have the same pull it did with previous consoles, and compared to the Xbox it's launch lineup was rather poor. I know some people love Luigi's Mansion and Pikmin, but they're certainly no Halo, and in terms of influence, Halo and the Xbox had far more effect on the industry than anything the Cube did.
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I'm sure there aren't. At least, not enough to justify the literal billions that would go into R&D/Parts sourcing/Manufacturing etc
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…so…not standard DVDs?
The Wii very specifically did not use the DVD-ROM format, so that Nintendo would not have to pay royalties to the DVD Forum. They’re not DVDs. Are they DVD-sized optical discs that hold a DVD-ish amount of data that use DVD-like lasers to read that data off the disc? Yes, of course.
My main point was that the Wii did not play DVDs (without homebrew shenanigans), and that didn’t hurt its success one iota, so I’m doubtful of the idea that not using DVDs is what killed the GameCube.
PixelKnight
Observing the process
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Im also not sure Switch vs GameCube (or any other home console) on a cart/disc comparison really works, when the Switch is partly a successor to Nintendo’s portables that have always used carts, going all the way back to the GameBoy. For a huge part of Nintendo’s audience, carts are part and parcel of the whole portable deal.Blaming Gamecube's failure on mini-discs just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. All of Nintendo's most successful platforms have used proprietary storage and have been incompatible with popular media formats of the day. Switch has been criticized for its expensive, limited-space game cartridges. It doesn't play any of your DVDs or CDs. It doesn't even have Netflix.
But uhh...
The market does not appear to care.
That problem was mostly applicable to the N64 generation only, when cartridge costs were astronomically higher than CDs and could store only a small fraction of the data. It would take over 100 N64 cartridges to hold Final Fantasy VII, it would ship in a large briefcase, and probably cost consumers a few thousand dollars. It was a unique problem of that one particular console.
Which is also related to this discussion in that you can’t really discuss the whole ‘why doesn’t Nintendo make a powerful console’ without also addressing ‘and what would it do with its portable line that’s it’s bread and butter’ and ‘they can’t make two software lines any more due to increasing dev time, and at least one has to run on a portable’ at the same time. At the end of the day, portable hardware is Nintendo’s most successful, long-term differentiating factor, so if you’re going to give up on one hardware idea, no wonder ‘powerful home console’ is the one to get sidelined.
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Blue Monty
Inkling
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Nintendo with the Switch made such a big bet in portability than now It’s almost impossible to go back to traditional home console as the main Nintendo console, this means that power wise Nintendo will always have the issue of their consoles being in the end a portable that to match Xbox/PS modern gen performance would need to be a lot more expensive which would market them out of the general public.
Supreme Overlord
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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It's probably worth considering that a particular factor having a particular effect at a particular time in the past doesn't necessarily mean a similar factor will absolutely have the same effect now.
If we consider the lack of DVD support for GameCube -- not necessarily the size constraints or anything -- then the factor in play is that Playstation did support DVD. It released as a DVD player at a time when a lot of people didn't have such a device. This was an element that made Sony's offering more appealing to many people than Nintendo's. Eventually this became less of a selling point (though there will still be people who would prefer support of such a format for convenience; the demographics simply won't make that a big selling point anymore).
For that example, it's not entirely that Nintendo used something different but that their product didn't offer the same incentive.
And, again, all the different elements from which are drawn these decisions are variable, and they'll play into different groups' decisions to different amounts and in different ways.
As for the suggestion that making a more powerful system will automatically mean the third parties will flock to the console, this is just a small example, from an indie studio that isn't necessarily dealing with all the questions of power -- kind of an example in microcosm -- but The Game Bakers are releasing DLC for their game Furi for the different systems, but not for Xbox because they couldn't justify spending the resources to bring it there:
It's just a quick illustration of the different market groups and decisions; while this isn't one of the big third parties you're thinking of, it's an example of the larger idea, that increased power isn't going to guarantee support.
Nor will it guarantee sales in general. Again, different moving pieces, tradeoffs, conceptions and misconceptions, et cetera.
If we consider the lack of DVD support for GameCube -- not necessarily the size constraints or anything -- then the factor in play is that Playstation did support DVD. It released as a DVD player at a time when a lot of people didn't have such a device. This was an element that made Sony's offering more appealing to many people than Nintendo's. Eventually this became less of a selling point (though there will still be people who would prefer support of such a format for convenience; the demographics simply won't make that a big selling point anymore).
For that example, it's not entirely that Nintendo used something different but that their product didn't offer the same incentive.
And, again, all the different elements from which are drawn these decisions are variable, and they'll play into different groups' decisions to different amounts and in different ways.
As for the suggestion that making a more powerful system will automatically mean the third parties will flock to the console, this is just a small example, from an indie studio that isn't necessarily dealing with all the questions of power -- kind of an example in microcosm -- but The Game Bakers are releasing DLC for their game Furi for the different systems, but not for Xbox because they couldn't justify spending the resources to bring it there:
It's just a quick illustration of the different market groups and decisions; while this isn't one of the big third parties you're thinking of, it's an example of the larger idea, that increased power isn't going to guarantee support.
Nor will it guarantee sales in general. Again, different moving pieces, tradeoffs, conceptions and misconceptions, et cetera.
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It isn't just about power when it comes to ports. There's also stuff like control options and potential userbase. Games that benefit from things like analog triggers, like more realistic racing games such as the F1 series or Dirt Rally, have to compromise on their controls if they want to port them to Switch. These games tend to appeal to a more niche crowd, and it's unlikely they're going to drop their wheels and controllers for Joy-Cons just because it's on the Switch.
Crusters
Koopa
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It's also increasingly becoming a moot point now. The differences between switch games and it's PS4/xbone counterparts are nothing like the differences between contemporary consoles used to be, let alone portables and home consoles. And the gap will only close from here out, once the next switch assumes it's position next to the PS5/XS
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What evidence is there that they would? That's the business case that Nintendo would have to make. Products are not assumed successful unless proven otherwise. Especially not products that are as expensive to develop and launch and market as a games console.
This theoretical high-powered console doesn't just have to be decently successful to be worth making. It has to be more profitable than what Nintendo would otherwise make (in other words, the Switch 2), and the Switch is extremely successful.
Going after the enthusiast "gamer" demographic with high-powered hardware represents a substantial risk to Nintendo's business. I think they recognize that it's very important to them that they have hardware available on the market at kid-friendly price points to support games like Pokémon. It's not a coincidence that they released the 2DS right before Pokémon X & Y. It's not a coincidence that they released the Switch Lite right before Pokémon Sword & Shield. A $500 high-powered console is the antithesis to this.
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CastletonSnob
Moblin
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What evidence? Have you not seen the YEARS of people calling for Nintendo to get better third party support? I've seen lots of people say they're tired of buying a Nintendo console just for Nintendo games. If a Nintendo console had third party support on par with Sony and Microsoft, more people would buy it. This isn't quantum physics.
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So, gamers on the internet saying they wish Nintendo hardware would have better third party support is evidence that, if Nintendo would develop higher-powered hardware, third parties would flock to support it?
That's a non sequitur. That's...just not the way evidence works. What gamers on the internet say they want is not an indication of the business strategies of third party publishers and how they would theoretically react to a theoretical high-powered Nintendo console.
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