Hailinel
Musou Mania!
There are script updates here and there, both in English and Japanese. It's not 1:1 dialogue with the original release.what dialogue changes?
There are script updates here and there, both in English and Japanese. It's not 1:1 dialogue with the original release.what dialogue changes?
I'm aiming my comment more at the general discourse it has drawn into the thread. I felt like this story was posted as a "see, this is why it's 30 FPS" when I kinda figured we should all know how these things happen. This isn't a new angle but I feel like it was posted as if it was some kind of revelation which makes me sigh a bit. Maybe that's too mean, but it is how I feel about these cyclical discussions around framerate around here.The part where you're acting like it was a revelation to people complaining is what confuses me. I don't see how you drew that conclusion when the point was people criticizing the priorities in the first place. Unless I'm misreading but that's what your comment sounds like when you say "it shouldn't be a revelation yet here we are " and "people have the right to complain but". I'm just not sure how you drew criticizing priorities = not knowing they exist.
And they are all pretty minor changes. It's not like they threw out a whole storyline, so I'm not sure why "dialogue changes" would be a reason to not get this game.There are script updates here and there, both in English and Japanese. It's not 1:1 dialogue with the original release.
Oh yeah I've seen some but were they even bad changes? Aren't some even good changes haha. I know there's obvious concern over Vivian but we haven't seen the full change there yet. Hopefully they handle that well.There are script updates here and there, both in English and Japanese. It's not 1:1 dialogue with the original release.
Oh yeah I've seen some but were they even bad changes? Aren't some even good changes haha. I know there's obvious concern over Vivian but we haven't seen the full change there yet. Hopefully they handle that well.
I'm just trying to understand if I'm missing a genuine issue or it's a purist thing.
See, I'd say that the former - saying that the game is a downgrade, is just a valid opinion that doesn't necessarily connect to the latter in any meaningful way.There were at least a few people saying the game is a downright downgrade because remake necessarily denotes improved frame rate. I think it's not as common sense as it should be that what gets upgraded in a remaster ultimately has more to do with priorities than incompetence.
Nothing you said in your comment is that bad, especially now that I know where you're coming from, so you don't have to apologize. I am just someone who is extremely careful about how people talk about negative view points, especially in an enthusiast forum dedicated to one company. To me, casually following the convos from earlier I don't think there's really much information to go off on that most of the people complaining thought it wasn't a case of priorities. So I basically read your comment as "this really shouldn't have to be a revelation, but sadly i guess to xyz crowd it is...", which sounds very condescending to me and is also a bit of a logical leap and fallacy, so I thought about chiming in. I get the frustration of not wanting to hear about a single talking point though. I mostly just chimed in because the leap felt illogical to me, but I was not offended.I'm aiming my comment more at the general discourse it has drawn into the thread. I felt like this story was posted as a "see, this is why it's 30 FPS" when I kinda figured we should all know how these things happen. This isn't a new angle but I feel like it was posted as if it was some kind of revelation which makes me sigh a bit. Maybe that's too mean, but it is how I feel about these cyclical discussions around framerate around here.
My comment about people should feel free to disagree is more or less encouraging people to keep saying which way they would've preferred the compromises to go rather than just use this tweet chain as more of a stopping point.
Sorry I communicate like garbage I guess. I hope this clears up my messaging a bit.
I can only assume it's a purist nostalgia argument.And they are all pretty minor changes. It's not like they threw out a whole storyline, so I'm not sure why "dialogue changes" would be a reason to not get this game.
If I'm understanding @BotenAnna correctly, the "here we are" in reference to it being a revelation on an enthusiast board was commenting on how the original poster of the tweet thread framed it, saying it should shut down any further discussion on 30 fps vs. 60. The idea that it could shut it down implies that the tweet thread is saying something we didn't already know. BotenAnna's comment was therefore targeted directly at the original poster's framing of the article rather than being a commentary on the thread's input to the debate as a whole, essentially disagreeing that the Twitter thread (while a good read) really solves very much.To me, casually following the convos from earlier I don't think there's really much information to go off on that most of the people complaining thought it wasn't a case of priorities. So I basically read your comment as "this really shouldn't have to be a revelation, but sadly i guess to xyz crowd it is...", which sounds very condescending to me and is also a bit of a logical leap and fallacy, so I thought about chiming in.
No. They are splicing bits of the old script into the new one. It's really just changes to sensibilities as well as what Nintendo deems suitable for the Mario brand rather than some adherence to the Japanese script, which was never NoA's shitck.isn't the dialouge more faithful to the Japanese now? I guess it's nostalgia
In fairness to me as one of the people who's expressed disappointment in the framerate (though I'm pleased overall with the look of the game), I applauded SS HD for going to 60 fps both before and after release. I think I actually said I hoped to never play a 3D Zelda at 30 fps again after doing two runs of SS HD lol (this was back when there was heavy speculation TotK would release on upgraded hardware...).I remember when Skyward Sword HD came out and went from 30 to 60....and people complained the graphics weren't upgraded enough
guess you can't play everyone
Cancelling my pre-order if they doI wonder if they’ll change the “Guess again Nerd” line.
Neither am I. I'm not personally a fan of the edge being toned down, but I also know that it was edge and mean and understand how that doesn't fly especially in an E10+ Nintendo game.I am really not looking forward to bad actors and reactionary YouTubers latching on to the localization discourse.
No, you see, action commands are only feasible at 60 fps. This is why PM64 isn't well regarded."Graphics over gameplay"
In a turn based rpg? The only relevant gameplay was modified for this release
Neither am I. I'm not personally a fan of the edge being toned down, but I also know that it was edge and mean and understand how that doesn't fly especially in an E10+ Nintendo game.
Most of these reactionary assholes don't even have that much awareness. Expect a lot of "PAPER MARIO GONE WOKE" clickbait on youtube thumbnails when the game comes out.
I think the Bowser line is that nice fine balance. Remove the punching down while still keeping an aggressive joke.Mean/dark humour can be hilarious tho IMO, if you tone that down you run the risk of it not being funny anymore. TTYD and SPM were really funny and that was part of the fun.
I think they have a good idea of what the fans consider iconic, memorable moments and will leave those unchanged. In the above video you can see that Crump calls Goombella a nerd, too.I wonder if they’ll change the “Guess again Nerd” line.
I get being disappointed about the FPS, but if all it took to lean you towards not buying it was a few lines of changed dialogue, then you probably weren’t that interested in the game in the first place
isn't the dialouge more faithful to the Japanese now? I guess it's nostalgia
It's updating very dated '00s dialogue for a modern audience and E10+ rating. The game's personality, much less Goombella's characterization specifically, never hinged on things like goombas catcalling her.Please do not try to tell me what my interest is in the game just because I don't agree with you on these kinds of matters. If you're going to instantly start downplaying my concerns as trivial, then we're not going to have a good faith discussion, period. I have the original, I love the game. If the remake doesn't feel like a complete upgrade, then I question spending my money on it. It's that simple. Metriod Prime Remastered was virtually the gold standard in how to do it these days, and that's going to be my baseline comparison.
Not entirely. For example, Bowser's 'tubby' line to one of his minions was an add-in during localisation. The original JP just tells him to do pushups. The new localisation adds in the joke. I'd have preferred strict adherence to the JP script if they were going to start modifying these things. That's the purist part of me.
The original JP script for the sewer Goombas had them hitting on Goombella as well, so that change is entirely a 'modern sensibilities' one. Which I don't get because it shows Goombella as a strong character who won't take that lightly and beats their asses. That's a good thing, no?
TTYD was a fairly edgy toned game and the dialogue and jokes within the game reflected that, and it was quite 'out there' for a Mario game, which was really part of its charm. From what we've seen so far they're dumbing that down a lot and I dislike the new atmosphere that creates.
I have a big personal problem with the way NoA injects 'modern sensibilities' into their localisations and have done for a while (removal of all traditional marriage roles in the Pikmin 2 treasures was another utterly pointless change for no reason whatsoever), so when I see it, I just get put off.
It's updating very dated '00s dialogue for a modern audience and E10+ rating. The game's personality, much less Goombella's characterization specifically, never hinged on things like goombas catcalling her.
Please do not try to tell me what my interest is in the game just because I don't agree with you on these kinds of matters. If you're going to instantly start downplaying my concerns as trivial, then we're not going to have a good faith discussion, period. I have the original, I love the game. If the remake doesn't feel like a complete upgrade, then I question spending my money on it. It's that simple. Metriod Prime Remastered was virtually the gold standard in how to do it these days, and that's going to be my baseline comparison.
Not entirely. For example, Bowser's 'tubby' line to one of his minions was an add-in during localisation. The original JP just tells him to do pushups. The new localisation adds in the joke. I'd have preferred strict adherence to the JP script if they were going to start modifying these things. That's the purist part of me. The new script and jokes seem overly wordy and trying a bit too hard to be funny, kind of like TOK. I'm not a fan of this lite merging of TTYD to the TOK styling, as I stated before.
The original JP script for the sewer Goombas had them hitting on Goombella as well, so that change is entirely a 'modern sensibilities' one. Which I don't get because it shows Goombella as a strong character who won't take that lightly and beats their asses. That's a good thing, no?
TTYD was a fairly edgy toned game and the dialogue and jokes within the game reflected that, and it was quite 'out there' for a Mario game, which was really part of its charm. From what we've seen so far they're dumbing that down a lot and I dislike the new atmosphere that creates.
I have a big personal problem with the way NoA injects 'modern sensibilities' into their localisations and have done for a while (removal of all traditional marriage roles in the Pikmin 2 treasures was another utterly pointless change for no reason whatsoever), so when I see it, I just get put off.
I think the Bowser line is that nice fine balance. Remove the punching down while still keeping an aggressive joke.
IMO Crump and the Goomba's are the wrong way to go about it. They are obviously being portrayed as in the wrong for their attitudes and you give them a good whoopin'. Now they're a little less edged and the smack down is less charged.
But again, this is super nitpicky nonsense that kids won't care about.
I don’t think your interested in a good faith discussion, especially after your “they’re TOK-ing TTYD” complaint. Again, feel free to do what you wish, however, being uninterested in a remake of a game you love because of a dialogue change will always seem ridiculous to me.
Can you explain what you mean by this? Did they take away XP, partners, etc???
No, not really. If they added substantial additions like making the level design better or make the game harder as an option or make the visuals so unbelievably good that it justifies the downgraded performance, I wouldn’t really be that disappointed. But right now, it feels like Nintendo is selling me something I already owned for 20 years again but it runs worse for no good reason.
This Just looks to me like you have blind faith. At this point, i have no reason to expect them to make a follow up to TTYD. The existence of this remake hasn't filled me with any hope on that front.
Huh? So I should give Nintendo my money just to get a copy of a game that I already own and played to death, and this new version runs worse and has some changes that I don't particularly like, just on the off chance they might give me the thing I actually want next time?
Nah, sorry this is some backwards logic. I don’t owe Nintendo jack shit and they aren’t entitled to money, and I certainly don’t have to buy this remake just to hope they give me a true TTYD sequel next time in four or five years.
Not playing that game again with this franchise. I have already been burned one too many times. For all I know the next game is another Origami King and I have no reason to think otherwise untill the day they announce a new Paper Mario game and it's a turn bassed RPG in the same vein as the first two.
Kids are gonna enjoy it regardless, I was a kid when I played the first one and I loved it and found it hilarious.
It's not just kids that are gonna play it tho, so I hope it remains as funny. The Bowser thing sounds less funny to me tbh, I'll wait and see what the whole game is going to be like before I criticise it.
As for the Goomba's (and Bowser as well), there is nothing wrong or dated in portraying arsehole characters as arseholes. It shows that doing these things makes you a bad person.
Consider that catcalling may not be E10+ material to today's ESRB or other ratings boards.Agreed. I'm not sure why bad guys acting like bad guys is such a problem these days. Especially when they get their asses whooped for it.
Consider that catcalling may not be E10+ material to today's ESRB or other ratings boards.
There aren't any changes with Lord Crump.I think the Bowser line is that nice fine balance. Remove the punching down while still keeping an aggressive joke.
IMO Crump and the Goomba's are the wrong way to go about it. They are obviously being portrayed as in the wrong for their attitudes and you give them a good whoopin'. Now they're a little less edged and the smack down is less charged.
But again, this is super nitpicky nonsense that kids won't care about.
TTYD remake has a perfect mixture of the modern and classic artystyles and the writing being doesn't mean it's like TOK. That's not how TOK's writing was anyway.I don't like the newer style of Paper Mario after TTYD, never have done. I see elements of it added into the TTYD remake, and so I point it out. If you have nothing of value to add except trying to patronise me then I'd appreciate no further discourse from you.
So while I said 'slowly pushes', what I meant was in things like the dialogue changes feel straight out of TOK. Aside from that, the art style push into the overly 3D papercraft/cardboard thing is very much the newer Paper Mario style, compared to the straight flat paper of the older games. I find it unfortunate they went this route as that is likely why they expended so much resources that there was nothing left for the 60fps stability.
I feel similar. I get that a lot of people will buy the game regardless, even if they agree with everything I've said: they want Nintendo to keep making games like this and will buy it out of hope that they're voting with their wallets for it.
For me, if they continue with the TOK elements, then I'm not sure if I'd want that. It reminds me of the whole thing with Halo 3 back in the day. 343i kept making Halo games that went farther and farther away from what made 3 good, and Halo just never recaptured its old magic. Infinite was their latest attempt to try to bring old fans back, but it still fell flat. I gave 343i a couple of shots, but no more. It's obvious the series I liked no longer exists.
Agreed. I'm not sure why bad guys acting like bad guys is such a problem these days. Especially when they get their asses whooped for it.
I don't like the newer style of Paper Mario after TTYD, never have done. I see elements of it added into the TTYD remake, and so I point it out. If you have nothing of value to add except trying to patronise me then I'd appreciate no further discourse from you.
So while I said 'slowly pushes', what I meant was in things like the dialogue changes feel straight out of TOK. Aside from that, the art style push into the overly 3D papercraft/cardboard thing is very much the newer Paper Mario style, compared to the straight flat paper of the older games. I find it unfortunate they went this route as that is likely why they expended so much resources that there was nothing left for the 60fps stability.
I feel similar. I get that a lot of people will buy the game regardless, even if they agree with everything I've said: they want Nintendo to keep making games like this and will buy it out of hope that they're voting with their wallets for it.
For me, if they continue with the TOK elements, then I'm not sure if I'd want that. It reminds me of the whole thing with Halo 3 back in the day. 343i kept making Halo games that went farther and farther away from what made 3 good, and Halo just never recaptured its old magic. Infinite was their latest attempt to try to bring old fans back, but it still fell flat. I gave 343i a couple of shots, but no more. It's obvious the series I liked no longer exists.
Agreed. I'm not sure why bad guys acting like bad guys is such a problem these days. Especially when they get their asses whooped for it.
I think this scene is more fraught than people realize. Dupree still flirts with Goombella, and she still shoots him down while calling him a bozo. But the sewer encounter is more a minefield. For one, the Goombas’ dialogue was racialized—they’re a clique living underground using phrases like “FINE-lookin’,” “sister,” etc. to give them an “urban” () tongue. Those characters tell a college girl to “come play.” This can easily be read as a lot more than flirting, and I think Nintendo’s perspective was that a total rewrite of the scene would produce the cleanest results and avoid drawing attention to specific components of the original conversation.The original JP script for the sewer Goombas had them hitting on Goombella as well, so that change is entirely a 'modern sensibilities' one. Which I don't get because it shows Goombella as a strong character who won't take that lightly and beats their asses. That's a good thing, no?
The Japanese script has been touched up all over the place and changes made to the English version align with it. It's not "Treehouse going rogue".Do we know if the goombas have been changed in the JP script as well?
Quite frankly, given the other changes and removal of gendered language as pointed above, I'm less inclined to believe this is a ratings board issue. It feels more like Treehouse being Treehouse. I'll concede on that one if the JP script is also altered.
I get what you mean with the game taking elements from modern Paper Mario games. It is clearly a mix of old and new Paper Mario. The soundtrack is jazzy just like modern PM as well. I'm still gonna buy it because I think most of these influences aren't necessarily bad influences, some are even really nice, I think the game looks and sounds gorgeous, it actually looks like a pop up book now. I hope the team takes lessons from this game when they make the next one and actually builds on top of it instead of reverting to gimmicky battles with no XP, with the paper gimmick so on the nose. We shall see.
I think this scene is more fraught than people realize. Dupree still flirts with Goombella, and she still shoots him down while calling him a bozo. But the sewer encounter is more a minefield. For one, the Goombas’ dialogue was racialized—they’re a clique living underground using phrases like “FINE-lookin’,” “sister,” etc. to give them an “urban” () tongue. Those characters tell a college girl to “come play.” This can easily be read as a lot more than flirting, and I think Nintendo’s perspective was that a total rewrite of the scene would produce the cleanest results and avoid drawing attention to specific components of the original conversation.
The Japanese script has been touched up all over the place and changes made to the English version align with it. It's not "Treehouse going rogue".
Based on this translation of the Japanese release, it’s an invention of the North American localization. There might’ve been a regional accent at use there, not sure.Did the original JP script for this scene imply the same? Or was the accents given to the Goombas a localisation thing?
Based on this translation of the Japanese release, it’s an invention of the North American localization. There might’ve been a regional accent at use there, not sure.
I think there is evidence that the Japanese script is undergoing changes too (and there has to be, just based on the fact that some changes in English are responding to changes in the game, e.g., turning the first Hooktail spotting into a short cutscene), but we only have overseas preview footage atm so most of what we’re discussing is limited to the English version.
I wouldn't call it dated 00s dialog. It's just good dialog for that moment and fits the characters. It's not particular offensive considering they're supposed to be bad guys.It's updating very dated '00s dialogue for a modern audience and E10+ rating. The game's personality, much less Goombella's characterization specifically, never hinged on things like goombas catcalling her.
Um.I wouldn't call it dated 00s dialog. It's just good dialog for that moment and fits the characters. It's not particular offensive considering they're supposed to be bad guys.
Anyway it's a very minor moment is not worth hemming and hawing over
I don't agree about it not being dated and offensive.I think this scene is more fraught than people realize. Dupree still flirts with Goombella, and she still shoots him down while calling him a bozo. But the sewer encounter is more a minefield. For one, the Goombas’ dialogue was racialized—they’re a clique living underground using phrases like “FINE-lookin’,” “sister,” etc. to give them an “urban” () tongue. Those characters tell a college girl to “come play.” This can easily be read as a lot more than flirting, and I think Nintendo’s perspective was that a total rewrite of the scene would produce the cleanest results and avoid drawing attention to specific components of the original conversation.
It's too late. They already are.I am really not looking forward to bad actors and reactionary YouTubers latching on to the localization discourse.
I used to have the same opinion of them using jazz a bit too much, especially during the middle of the 3DS and Wii U era. But I think Nintendo has improved on this aspect while incorporating other styles of their music. SMRPG and TTYD are no exceptions.I didn't want to comment on the music since it is an easy fix, but I'm also not really a fan of that either, lol. The original soundtrack is very synth heavy, and it feels like Nintendo slapped heavy Jazz on top because they could, not if they should. Rogueport with the trumpet just feels excessively over the top for me and completely changes the feel of the area from what I feel it should be.
I feel like this is a thing in a lot of more recent Nintendo games. The composers have full orchestras and just go nuts without thinking where they should use it and where not to. I ended up using the original music in the RPG Remake due to a similar feeling, and I've never even played the original.
Did the original JP script for this scene imply the same? Or was the accents given to the Goombas a localisation thing?
What, specifically, do the Goombas say now in the JP script? The dialogue they have in the current localisation doesn't feel like something that would have been written in JP, but that's just a feeling.
That is unfortunately completely unsurprising.It's too late. They already are.
He doesn't call Goombella an airhead or girl as a way to patronize and insult her. He's generally less aggressive in that department. He calls her "Student" instead, and like... you could at least say schoolkid to keep the spirit of patronizing.There aren't any changes with Lord Crump.
I feel the best solution is then to just drop the urban tongue then and change it to something else. You could easily change it to "bro-talk" and get across that same point.I think this scene is more fraught than people realize. Dupree still flirts with Goombella, and she still shoots him down while calling him a bozo. But the sewer encounter is more a minefield. For one, the Goombas’ dialogue was racialized—they’re a clique living underground using phrases like “FINE-lookin’,” “sister,” etc. to give them an “urban” () tongue. Those characters tell a college girl to “come play.” This can easily be read as a lot more than flirting, and I think Nintendo’s perspective was that a total rewrite of the scene would produce the cleanest results and avoid drawing attention to specific components of the original conversation.