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Discussion This year feels like the games industry already crashed.

Yep. It’s not a crash but it‘s absolutely the closest thing to it.

What we’re currently seeing in the games industry is a direct result of capitalism. I know “capitalism” is an easy catch-all answer to most “why are things bad” question but in this case the cause/effect is pretty blatantly obvious.

The pandemic was a once-in-a-lifetime event that caused millions of people to stay at home. This caused game profits to spike, especially around live service games because it was a way for people stuck at home to communicate and keep up with their friends who they couldn’t see in person.

Capitalism is a stupid machine that cannot see 5 feet in front of its own face. All it literally does is assume the next 5 feet in front of itself will be exactly like the previous 5 feet. It is an incredibly stupid machine. So the pandemic caused profits to shoot up. What does that mean? Oh, well the profits will probably keep going up, right? The last 5 feet were a wildly steep incline, that’s probably going to keep happening! Let’s massively hire up and focus 100% of our resources on live service games.

Oh wait, the pandemic is over (no it is not, not even close, but the government sure likes to act like it is) and now everyone is going out again instead of spending time indoors on live service games? Who could have foreseen this. Not the stupid machine called Capitalism.

Well, we need to maintain and grow shareholder value, so let’s lay people off and cancel these live service games. Tens of thousands of jobs will be lost and lives will be unjustly upended, but that’s okay because CEOs and Presidents and other inhuman goblin freaks who make these idiotic decisions will still get 8 figure salaries.

Totally sustainable industry!

Anyway on a completely unrelated note I’ve been replaying the Pikmin series recently. You know it’s fun to watch one hundred little guys, normally powerless on their own, all team up and completely destroy the big powerful idiot monsters. Just watching the Pikmin, the little guys who do actually do work, massively outnumber and swarm the gluttonous, parasitic monsters. They even can take the resources of these big stupid freaks and turn them into dozens of actually productive workers. Hmm. You know, it’s inspiring to know that when Pikmin come together they can accomplish so much. It’s almost like workers can be powerful in numbers, as some sort of… collective? Group? Alliance? I think there’s a word I’m looking for here, maybe it starts with U? Anyway, Pikmin, what a game.

Not sure why I’m bringing it up here, though. It’s so unrelated.
I fucking loved the end of your post lol
 
Even though Nintendo is more resistant to rising development costs than the rest of their industry, I do actually wonder if their huge tentpole franchises would eventually hit diminishing returns and get less ROI than previous games which would be cause for concern.

3D Mario and Zelda are what I'm thinking of here. Ever since Galaxy 2, there has been an emphasis on more and more content, from 120 stars in 64 to 242 stars in Galaxy 2. Then Odyssey amps it up to 880 moons, although each moon would be individually cheaper to make since you could just place majority of them wherever you want and not as tightly balance them in comparison. And Zelda games since Wind Waker has tried to push the hour counts higher and higher per game.

I wonder when they just stop and decide there's a limit? Tears of the Kingdom only has ~30 extra shrines versus Breath of the Wild, but there's also way more bespoke content elsewhere like caves, the depths, and the sky. It is possible to pull that off, though. Something like Dark Souls 2 is the longest Souls game From Software made (until Elden Ring) while Bloodborne is the shortest Souls game and came out after (and has the shittiest PvP of them all lol), yet is more critically praised and revered.

Luckily, I think this is the only two series that might be having limits on content growth. Something like 2D Mario is kinda a bit of a sidestep here. They all consistently have 8 worlds with like 80 or so levels, and Super Mario Bros Wonder even cut some content from New Super Mario Bros 2 / U with no challenge modes at all. A highly underrated mode that added more challenging content for expert Mario players, but just not present in Wonder. Ironically enough, more money went into graphical presentation and animation, though they also put good money in making sure the base content was stellar, just at the cost of other modes like Coin Battle and Challenge Mode.

Also not a sales tentpole series, but something like Metroid: Samus Returns is actually like the same length as Metroid Dread lmao. Seems like a 10 hour hard-cap is good and sustainable for them, which I prefer from a Metroidvania game design standpoint anyway.

Nintendo has a bunch of series that don't break the bank, but it's just food for thought. Though, I could imagine something like Nintendo Switch Sports ACTUALLY having a higher budget than you'd think because of how that game was in development for like 5 years lol.
 
So the consumers are fault? There are some which complain on the highest level, but they‘re only a vocal minority. And in some countries like Canada or Brazil complaining about pricing is absolutely justified. The problem are the companies which have hyped up realistic graphics and overblown open worlds, starting in the PS3 era, which gets unsustainable at some point.
Both the companies pushing these types of the games the "gamers" who continue to specifically demand them, are at fault. Especially the types who say things like:

"This game isn't worth $60 because it's not 4K/60fps"

Or

"Insert game here shouldn't cost this amount because I've deemed it to be of a lesser genre."

These are a vocal minority, but from what I've experienced that minority is getting louder and larger as time goes on. Obviously the bulk of the blame rests on the companies pushing these developments and laying people off after ballooning their development costs to unattainable levels, but they didn't just start doing this out of the blue.
 
Both the companies pushing these types of the games the "gamers" who continue to specifically demand them, are at fault. Especially the types who say things like:

"This game isn't worth $60 because it's not 4K/60fps"

Or

"Insert game here shouldn't cost this amount because I've deemed it to be of a lesser genre."

These are a vocal minority, but from what I've experienced that minority is getting louder and larger as time goes on. Obviously the bulk of the blame rests on the companies pushing these developments and laying people off after ballooning their development costs to unattainable levels, but they didn't just start doing this out of the blue.
I agree that they are a part of the problem, but if most companies hadn‘t gone the path they did, they wouldn’t really exist. If companies stopped marketing games and consoles based on graphics, this complaining‘d dissapear at some point (and they‘ll be forced eventually since tech doesn’t progress as fast as it used to). So they‘re definitely a problem, but a lesser one in my eyes.
 
One problem is that there essentially are too many games with above average quality. The consumer simply have too many options where they can choose from. Meanwhile there are signs that a lot of people right now don‘t really want to buy that many consumer products as they did like until last year.

The demand simply gets lower. Maybe it is an overcorrection of the market after Corona, but the "cozy times" seem over. I mean we see that too that the time of Cozy games actually seems over, if trends like Palworld are any sign.

For the big games this will not be much of a difference, GTA, Mario or Pokémon will make their numbers, but even Third Parties are in trouble. People will not just blindly buy any Assassins Creed game anymore.

Indies have meanwhile almost no other option than to start off with being Early Access, it is not enough anymore to just have an innovative concept and then somehow being discovered by a publisher. 5 years ago this was a given, today you have to be really lucky because there is much more competition of great devs and publishers are overall less likely to take risks.
 
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As others have said, it's not comparable to what happened in the 80s but I fear that the mid to long term effects will be devastating on game development. We won't see the consequences of this loss of talent and institutional knowledge right away but it's undoubtedly going to affect upcoming games. Constantly firing and rehiring people that you need to train is a costly affair. I think the companies that weather the storm will be rewarded.
 
As others have said, it's not comparable to what happened in the 80s but I fear that the mid to long term effects will be devastating on game development. We won't see the consequences of this loss of talent and institutional knowledge right away but it's undoubtedly going to affect upcoming games. Constantly firing and rehiring people that you need to train is a costly affair. I think the companies that weather the storm will be rewarded.
And some of them (like Nintendo) are already rewarded.
 
Both the companies pushing these types of the games the "gamers" who continue to specifically demand them, are at fault. Especially the types who say things like:

"This game isn't worth $60 because it's not 4K/60fps"

Or

"Insert game here shouldn't cost this amount because I've deemed it to be of a lesser genre."

These are a vocal minority, but from what I've experienced that minority is getting louder and larger as time goes on. Obviously the bulk of the blame rests on the companies pushing these developments and laying people off after ballooning their development costs to unattainable levels, but they didn't just start doing this out of the blue.
Meanwhile, Nintendo sells Mario Party Superstars. A very high quality, which many people would argue has "little content", is a party game, costs a fraction to make, is 1080p, and then it goes to sell like 10 million copies.

They also sell Metroid Dread and it sold over 3 million, which we know turned a very good profit.

Same with Pikmin.

Or literally a life simulation game and then that game blows up and sells something like 40 million.

It's because Nintendo didn't condition their audience to prioritize realism or graphics. The reason why everyone on the PS side and Xbox side is obsessed with 4k 60fps is because they were key marketing points for the PS5 and Xbox Series.
Even though Nintendo is more resistant to rising development costs than the rest of their industry, I do actually wonder if their huge tentpole franchises would eventually hit diminishing returns and get less ROI than previous games which would be cause for concern.

3D Mario and Zelda are what I'm thinking of here. Ever since Galaxy 2, there has been an emphasis on more and more content, from 120 stars in 64 to 242 stars in Galaxy 2. Then Odyssey amps it up to 880 moons, although each moon would be individually cheaper to make since you could just place majority of them wherever you want and not as tightly balance them in comparison. And Zelda games since Wind Waker has tried to push the hour counts higher and higher per game.

I wonder when they just stop and decide there's a limit? Tears of the Kingdom only has ~30 extra shrines versus Breath of the Wild, but there's also way more bespoke content elsewhere like caves, the depths, and the sky. It is possible to pull that off, though. Something like Dark Souls 2 is the longest Souls game From Software made (until Elden Ring) while Bloodborne is the shortest Souls game and came out after (and has the shittiest PvP of them all lol), yet is more critically praised and revered.

Luckily, I think this is the only two series that might be having limits on content growth. Something like 2D Mario is kinda a bit of a sidestep here. They all consistently have 8 worlds with like 80 or so levels, and Super Mario Bros Wonder even cut some content from New Super Mario Bros 2 / U with no challenge modes at all. A highly underrated mode that added more challenging content for expert Mario players, but just not present in Wonder. Ironically enough, more money went into graphical presentation and animation, though they also put good money in making sure the base content was stellar, just at the cost of other modes like Coin Battle and Challenge Mode.

Also not a sales tentpole series, but something like Metroid: Samus Returns is actually like the same length as Metroid Dread lmao. Seems like a 10 hour hard-cap is good and sustainable for them, which I prefer from a Metroidvania game design standpoint anyway.

Nintendo has a bunch of series that don't break the bank, but it's just food for thought. Though, I could imagine something like Nintendo Switch Sports ACTUALLY having a higher budget than you'd think because of how that game was in development for like 5 years lol.
Tears of the Kingdom had way more content because all of its staff were seasoned veterans on the BotW style. It's because they didn't lay off anyone. They did kind of get screwed over by Covid though, which is why Tears took a bit longer. Creating those 120/150 Shrines was probably way far easier than creating the 10 dungeons of something like Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword. Think of the amount of puzzles that intertwine with another, you no longer need that and designers can just split up the work easier. And since the same designers of those same games are still at Nintendo, they can make easy and quick work of it, and get other members up to speed too.

The next Zelda game can have a lot more content because their staff is going to be even more experienced.

Though Nintendo really knows that developer numbers need to rise, and that's why they are constructing brand new buildings. So development costs are bound to rise a little bit.

Nintendo as a company though is so healthy though, because they are diversifying into more than just games. Playstation has a lead foot because Sony's other products and film divisions aren't doing quite hot right now. That puts way too much pressure on PlayStation to be profitable. Microsoft has the opposite problem, where games aren't anywhere close to its most profitable division.

Meanwhile, Nintendo has some very clear avenues for growth. I am absolutely positive they are aware that they are starting to hit a ceiling. But their avenues of growth aren't in games. They probably want games to continue to sell just as good for the Switch 2 as Switch 1. But then they want to continue to expand their theme parks, and their movie divisions. That's where the growth of Nintendo will come from for probably the next 10 years. And then that will feed back into games too
 
I think the current situation is probably more comparable to the end of the Golden Age of Hollywood in the sixties than to the video game crash of 1983, in that it’s not a crash of the whole industry, just a certain system that has become too big to be profitable.

Sucks for the employes of the industry and their workforce of course. But if i'm honest. When i look at the society i live in. Their are enough jobs vacant where workers are urgently needed...
Devs or designers can’t magically become, like, nurses.
 
Indie dev studios have been on the rise even more recently because of this mess, so much good talent. Can't wait to see them innovate while activision are making another cod or some shit.
 
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In 1983, it was a crisis of demand. It seems to me that if there is a crisis looming today, it is above all a crisis of supply, with disproportionate projects, unreasonable expectations of growth, of sells level and fantasies of business models, such as Gaas, that look more like the wet dreams of shareholders than the reality of consumer desires.

However, the violence of inflation, the resulting rise in the cost of living, and the inevitable recession, will also end up having a harsh effect on demand.

So not only, as Derachi superbly put it, is capitalism an idiot with unreal expectations, but purchasing power is falling, which even the most dim-witted can understand is very bad for economic growth.
 
And some of them (like Nintendo) are already rewarded.
Nintendo foresaw this scenario as far back as the late 1990’s when they had sticker shock from the cost of making Zelda Ocarina of Time. They started talking publicly about it 2003 with their comments about “gamer drift.” They upped their comments in 2006 with their comments about how the Wii and DS were “blue ocean” products to have appeal to new and lapsed players in addition to legacy players.

It took decades longer than they thought for this crash to occur but here we are.
 
I’m saying “bring the rich to an Onion”

drBAAYp.png
 
This is not a crash like some people have already pointed out.

It is an extremely shit situation for people involved of course, and I frankly wouldn't recommend anyone to start working in this industry, but a crash? Nah.
 
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Not a crash I guess but it’s certainly unsustainable and you can see similar issues throughout every industry as they all chase exponential profit with no regard for their workers. It’s certainly worrying to see and I can’t imagine where our entertainment industries will be in another 5-10 years.

Budgets and scope need to be reduced and refined, executives need less money, and power needs to be put in the worker’s hands. Maybe there’s a word for that last One : )
 
Layoffs on a scale like we haven't seen in decades, studio closures all over, AAA games have slowed to a crawl, and the contracting console sales this year. Industry consolidation on a massive scale also. Yes, the games industry is still profitable, but who is making the profit, and who is suffering for those to still make their profit? And the sheer brain drain all these layoffs are going to have immense ramifications for the future of the industry to come.

I know in 1983, console gaming went non-existant, but if we're being historically accurate, PC gaming was still active at the time, and the Famicom's US debut was on the horizon. The market still existed also even if it went through a massive downsizing.

At what point does this horrible year become a new crash? I'm looking for just alternate perspectives on what people would define as a crash worthy event.

(And just because I feel it crashed already, doesn't mean the layoffs won't stop. I want them to stop, please STOP!)

1983 was pretty great time to own a Commodore 64
 
it is above all a crisis of supply
I agree and disagree with that. Yes, there is a shortage of supply, but that is mainly limited to the "American AAA" space - once you move away from that and into "Japanese AAA", "Euro", "AA" and "Indie" territories, there is ample supply of new games.

The issue, as I see it, is rather that we've spent the better part of the last 10, maybe even 15 years devaluing the majority of these other kinds of games, even if they're good games and are doing well and are making bank for the people behind them.

This is in so far reminiscent of the 1983 crash as it's a small segment of a handful of publishers (two of which are nominally also platform holders) that is struggling, in no small part due to their own fault by oversizing themselves and overvaluing a specific kind of "product" and the latter has carried so much weight that any sort of crack in that part of the system is seen as indicative of a total system failure.
 
It's almost as if giant multi million dollar budgets and consoles and games that chase the highest end graphics are a problem. Almost as if part of the same problem is the people who keep pushing for better and better graphics, becoming more and more entitled and getting to the point where they refuse to accept games costing X amount because it doesn't have the right amount of FPS or resolution or it's 2D instead of 3D.
I think this is maybe putting the cart before the horse. There's actually not much evidence that expensive, traditionally sold games don't make their money back or aren't profitable. Most of the most expensive games of all time made their money back pretty much immediately, even TLOU2 which just had an ok launch and was one of the most expensive games of all time (with a leaked budget of $220m) still made money back in the first 24 hours. The only game I can think of that required a ridiculous amount of sales proportional to its popularity to get it's money back was Spider-Man 2 (which I think was something like 6-7m, or about a month and a half of sales), and that's mainly because of the Marvel licensing cost, and even then Insomniac wasn't alone in getting layoffs at PS.

What is completely unstainable is the GaaS industry and the way all big publishers are trying to cash in on it, which is why almost every game that isn't one of a select few shuts down immediately. But a lot of the layoffs for devs are probably because publishers realize they can make even more money with even less employees, that's not "unsustainability" of traditional expensive AAA game sales that's greed. You can see this as well in a lot of Japanese AAA games where, even if they probably have more reasonable budgets, they're also surprisingly big relative to their initial sales when compared to Western counterparts, and yet they still make it out ok.

It's still cyclical though, like budgets ever increasing is bad because it means developers and publishers can't take risks and branch out, which means they have less potential to capitalize on more diverse markets, and also means more sales are required to compensate for lower profit margins. But that's not really the same as traditionally expensive AAA games being unsustainable. It's still bad, but it's important to remember when greed is the reason behind layoffs and not companies hurting.
 
I'd say it's less a crash and more like CEOs looking for artificial growth by cutting costs (people) in a time where video games sales actually continue to grow to look even better to investors.
 
Yep. It’s not a crash but it‘s absolutely the closest thing to it.

What we’re currently seeing in the games industry is a direct result of capitalism. I know “capitalism” is an easy catch-all answer to most “why are things bad” question but in this case the cause/effect is pretty blatantly obvious.

The pandemic was a once-in-a-lifetime event that caused millions of people to stay at home. This caused game profits to spike, especially around live service games because it was a way for people stuck at home to communicate and keep up with their friends who they couldn’t see in person.

Capitalism is a stupid machine that cannot see 5 feet in front of its own face. All it literally does is assume the next 5 feet in front of itself will be exactly like the previous 5 feet. It is an incredibly stupid machine. So the pandemic caused profits to shoot up. What does that mean? Oh, well the profits will probably keep going up, right? The last 5 feet were a wildly steep incline, that’s probably going to keep happening! Let’s massively hire up and focus 100% of our resources on live service games.

Oh wait, the pandemic is over (no it is not, not even close, but the government sure likes to act like it is) and now everyone is going out again instead of spending time indoors on live service games? Who could have foreseen this. Not the stupid machine called Capitalism.

Well, we need to maintain and grow shareholder value, so let’s lay people off and cancel these live service games. Tens of thousands of jobs will be lost and lives will be unjustly upended, but that’s okay because CEOs and Presidents and other inhuman goblin freaks who make these idiotic decisions will still get 8 figure salaries.

Totally sustainable industry!

Anyway on a completely unrelated note I’ve been replaying the Pikmin series recently. You know it’s fun to watch one hundred little guys, normally powerless on their own, all team up and completely destroy the big powerful idiot monsters. Just watching the Pikmin, the little guys who do actually do work, massively outnumber and swarm the gluttonous, parasitic monsters. They even can take the resources of these big stupid freaks and turn them into dozens of actually productive workers. Hmm. You know, it’s inspiring to know that when Pikmin come together they can accomplish so much. It’s almost like workers can be powerful in numbers, as some sort of… collective? Group? Alliance? I think there’s a word I’m looking for here, maybe it starts with U? Anyway, Pikmin, what a game.

Not sure why I’m bringing it up here, though. It’s so unrelated.
If only we could model ourselves like Pikmin and skip the in-fighting and division
 
Pikmin 2 is about a foreign corporation enlisting the natives to pillage their planet's resources for the sake of profit. The employee on the ground level sympathizes with the plight of his underlings, and believes he owes them his life, but is unable to express this to them, and can only lead the best he can and be forced to witness every loss of life and have it weigh on his conscience while his boss reaps the benefits of the labor.

Also there's a spider with a machine gun.
 
Pikmin 2 is about a foreign corporation enlisting the natives to pillage their planet's resources for the sake of profit. The employee on the ground level sympathizes with the plight of his underlings, and believes he owes them his life, but is unable to express this to them, and can only lead the best he can and be forced to witness every loss of life and have it weigh on his conscience while his boss reaps the benefits of the labor.

Also there's a spider with a machine gun.
#FreeLouie, he didn't do anything wrong
 
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I wouldn't call this a market crash at all. It's a correction after covid and the fact thay AAA is unstainable. For the latter, we knew that day was coming sooner or later.

I also believe there's too many games releasing nowadays. Who can keep up?
 
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One problem is that there essentially are too many games with above average quality. The consumer simply have too many options where they can choose from.

Yeah I used to find this a real late gen issue. Back in the past, new machine comes out and you’d only have to many titles to go in on. Great for bedding new IPs, late gen you’re in a crowd.
 
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Yep. It’s not a crash but it‘s absolutely the closest thing to it.

What we’re currently seeing in the games industry is a direct result of capitalism. I know “capitalism” is an easy catch-all answer to most “why are things bad” question but in this case the cause/effect is pretty blatantly obvious.

The pandemic was a once-in-a-lifetime event that caused millions of people to stay at home. This caused game profits to spike, especially around live service games because it was a way for people stuck at home to communicate and keep up with their friends who they couldn’t see in person.

Capitalism is a stupid machine that cannot see 5 feet in front of its own face. All it literally does is assume the next 5 feet in front of itself will be exactly like the previous 5 feet. It is an incredibly stupid machine. So the pandemic caused profits to shoot up. What does that mean? Oh, well the profits will probably keep going up, right? The last 5 feet were a wildly steep incline, that’s probably going to keep happening! Let’s massively hire up and focus 100% of our resources on live service games.

Oh wait, the pandemic is over (no it is not, not even close, but the government sure likes to act like it is) and now everyone is going out again instead of spending time indoors on live service games? Who could have foreseen this. Not the stupid machine called Capitalism.

Well, we need to maintain and grow shareholder value, so let’s lay people off and cancel these live service games. Tens of thousands of jobs will be lost and lives will be unjustly upended, but that’s okay because CEOs and Presidents and other inhuman goblin freaks who make these idiotic decisions will still get 8 figure salaries.
What you are describing is not really a problem with "capitalism", it's more of a problem with how publicly traded companies are managed in the US.
You could also say the same problems of short-sightness are ever more relevant in politics.
I would say this is more of a general problem with leadership long-term accountability.
 
What you are describing is not really a problem with "capitalism", it's more of a problem with how publicly traded companies are managed in the US.
You could also say the same problems of short-sightness are ever more relevant in politics.
I would say this is more of a general problem with leadership long-term accountability.
Correct. Capitalism is a much more limited, specific, idea than most people think. It's a label to describe certain types of economies that have a certain type of dynamic to them, similar to how different species of animals have their own names to them. It's taxonomy.

The problems Bait02 describes comes from specific issues with the financial and stock markets in the USA (and abroad, I think.) But then again, the most fundamental issues have been there since day one, and the stock market and financial markets are the backbone of capitalism in the USA, which basically started Capitalism.

Of course, aside from the fact that stocks don't inherently depreciate in value, the main issue is a result of human nature colliding with bad incentives.

So...it's kinda "Capitalism," but not in the exaggerated way Bait02 thinks. Bait02's rant is kinda just nonsense that assumes a bunch of things out of nowhere. In particular, it assigns a weird kind of agency to "capitalism" and just assumes it's intentions, as though people don't run the companies.
 
One problem is that there essentially are too many games with above average quality. The consumer simply have too many options where they can choose from. Meanwhile there are signs that a lot of people right now don‘t really want to buy that many consumer products as they did like until last year.

The demand simply gets lower. Maybe it is an overcorrection of the market after Corona, but the "cozy times" seem over. I mean we see that too that the time of Cozy games actually seems over, if trends like Palworld are any sign.

For the big games this will not be much of a difference, GTA, Mario or Pokémon will make their numbers, but even Third Parties are in trouble. People will not just blindly buy any Assassins Creed game anymore.

Indies have meanwhile almost no other option than to start off with being Early Access, it is not enough anymore to just have an innovative concept and then somehow being discovered by a publisher. 5 years ago this was a given, today you have to be really lucky because there is much more competition of great devs and publishers are overall less likely to take risks.
I don't necessary think it's a "too many good games" problem, but a "games that don't go away" problem. 20 years ago 90% of the games you played once you finished you were done. There were a few "live service" games like Diablo 2, Counter Strike, the various MMOs, etc, but they were mostly only on pc and some of them their longevity came from modders adding new content all the time. Games were also shorter on average, far fewer open world games and less voice acted cut scenes.

In 2024, so many AAA games are designed to have some element of live service, to keep a player playing for months/years after their initial purchase. You could be a full time gamer who puts hundreds/thousands of dollars into the industry every year and only play Minecraft, Rocket League, CoD Warzone, Genshin Impact, and/or League of Legends. Even if you're someone buying retail games, many of them are actually live series games meant to last you months/years, are now open world and padded with content for perceived length/value, or have dlc/season passes announced to add more content over the next year.

The industry saw GAAS as a infinite money valve, and had the mindset of "well if we throw a dozen at the wall, as long as one sticks it'll pay for the other 11 that flopped". However games take too long and cost too much, and much of the big spenders in the GAAS marketplace are already entrenched into the handful of games they played.
 
Yep. It’s not a crash but it‘s absolutely the closest thing to it.

What we’re currently seeing in the games industry is a direct result of capitalism. I know “capitalism” is an easy catch-all answer to most “why are things bad” question but in this case the cause/effect is pretty blatantly obvious.

The pandemic was a once-in-a-lifetime event that caused millions of people to stay at home. This caused game profits to spike, especially around live service games because it was a way for people stuck at home to communicate and keep up with their friends who they couldn’t see in person.

Capitalism is a stupid machine that cannot see 5 feet in front of its own face. All it literally does is assume the next 5 feet in front of itself will be exactly like the previous 5 feet. It is an incredibly stupid machine. So the pandemic caused profits to shoot up. What does that mean? Oh, well the profits will probably keep going up, right? The last 5 feet were a wildly steep incline, that’s probably going to keep happening! Let’s massively hire up and focus 100% of our resources on live service games.

Oh wait, the pandemic is over (no it is not, not even close, but the government sure likes to act like it is) and now everyone is going out again instead of spending time indoors on live service games? Who could have foreseen this. Not the stupid machine called Capitalism.

Well, we need to maintain and grow shareholder value, so let’s lay people off and cancel these live service games. Tens of thousands of jobs will be lost and lives will be unjustly upended, but that’s okay because CEOs and Presidents and other inhuman goblin freaks who make these idiotic decisions will still get 8 figure salaries.

Totally sustainable industry!

Anyway on a completely unrelated note I’ve been replaying the Pikmin series recently. You know it’s fun to watch one hundred little guys, normally powerless on their own, all team up and completely destroy the big powerful idiot monsters. Just watching the Pikmin, the little guys who do actually do work, massively outnumber and swarm the gluttonous, parasitic monsters. They even can take the resources of these big stupid freaks and turn them into dozens of actually productive workers. Hmm. You know, it’s inspiring to know that when Pikmin come together they can accomplish so much. It’s almost like workers can be powerful in numbers, as some sort of… collective? Group? Alliance? I think there’s a word I’m looking for here, maybe it starts with U? Anyway, Pikmin, what a game.

Not sure why I’m bringing it up here, though. It’s so unrelated.
The alternatives to capitalism are far worse than the problems it has. There's a reason every capitalist society has outperformed, and has better QOL metrics, than non-capitalist societies. It's the least worst solution.

I do agree unionization would help this industry though
 
The alternatives to capitalism are far worse than the problems it has. There's a reason every capitalist society has outperformed, and has better QOL metrics, than non-capitalist societies. It's the least worst solution.

I do agree unionization would help this industry though

Something being the ""least worst"" (Extra air quotes for the obvious reasons) solution we have to a problem doesn't automatically make it good. It's still a shitty solution, we just have failed to come up with anything better.

It doesn't mean we can settle and go "Well, problem is fixed, we can't do better than this, sucks". It means we need to keep working on ways to make stuff better. Because society has changed in enough ways since then that maybe we're in a position where we can actually create new alternatives that weren't possible before.

The defeatist and unwillingness to consider that is probably doing more harm for actually figuring out those better alternatives than anything.
 
Tears of the Kingdom had way more content because all of its staff were seasoned veterans on the BotW style. It's because they didn't lay off anyone. They did kind of get screwed over by Covid though, which is why Tears took a bit longer. Creating those 120/150 Shrines was probably way far easier than creating the 10 dungeons of something like Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword. Think of the amount of puzzles that intertwine with another, you no longer need that and designers can just split up the work easier. And since the same designers of those same games are still at Nintendo, they can make easy and quick work of it, and get other members up to speed too.

The next Zelda game can have a lot more content because their staff is going to be even more experienced.
no,they werent,only 26% of the designers worked on botw
 
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I don't necessary think it's a "too many good games" problem, but a "games that don't go away" problem. 20 years ago 90% of the games you played once you finished you were done. There were a few "live service" games like Diablo 2, Counter Strike, the various MMOs, etc, but they were mostly only on pc and some of them their longevity came from modders adding new content all the time. Games were also shorter on average, far fewer open world games and less voice acted cut scenes.

In 2024, so many AAA games are designed to have some element of live service, to keep a player playing for months/years after their initial purchase. You could be a full time gamer who puts hundreds/thousands of dollars into the industry every year and only play Minecraft, Rocket League, CoD Warzone, Genshin Impact, and/or League of Legends. Even if you're someone buying retail games, many of them are actually live series games meant to last you months/years, are now open world and padded with content for perceived length/value, or have dlc/season passes announced to add more content over the next year.

The industry saw GAAS as a infinite money valve, and had the mindset of "well if we throw a dozen at the wall, as long as one sticks it'll pay for the other 11 that flopped". However games take too long and cost too much, and much of the big spenders in the GAAS marketplace are already entrenched into the handful of games they played.
Yeah you are right! Though I think it dosen‘t help that there are so many great indie games too which are getting more in quantity, are getting bigger in scope, deliver more quality content and like you said don‘t go away anymore.

A smaller team that makes their debut 3 hour experience has much a harder time now. But also bigger Third Parties more and more are competing with those Indie games because of said reasons.
 
Gaming isn’t crashing….the old tropes of huge AAA games and expensive, high end tech is crashing in gaming.

Microsoft and Sony chased the wrong dragons, couldn’t read the tea leaves, and are now paying for it. The overwhelming majority of people that play games nowadays (esp. kids) don’t want to be tethered to a TV…they don’t care about teraflops, resolutions, frame rates, and everything that comes with these higher end consoles.

I thought the Switch was brilliant at the time but it’s even more brilliant with concept and delivery with each passing day…it was an amazing pivot.

Backing up to what I said earlier about Sony/MS and you can include Nintendo in this too…I live in a household with 5 kids, watching how they game and consume games has been super interesting. They play on their phones, tablets, and Switch’s almost all of the time…they’re playing Fortnite, Roblox, Minecraft, Smash, Mario Party, Mario Kart, Switch Sports, etc. etc. They could care less about Final Fantasy or Hellblade or Elden Ring…I see it with all their friends too.

Nintendo has the right formula…a great 1st party, enough 3rd party support, and killer indies…and all their retro stuff in their sub service which is exactly how it should be.
 
companies are not stupid for "not seeing 5 feet in front of them". they knew this day would come, they just didn't care. They wanted to profit as much as they could and that's it. Employees are just disposable machinery for them, they will suck everything from them during a period and get rid of them as soon as they think they need.

this is not capitalism going wrong, this is capitalism working perfectly.
 
That's just how capitalism works...

It needs a tiny, minuscule "upper class", then the rest of us, to exists.
 
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AAA development is becoming unsustainable as budgets increase and Nintendo saw this from a mile away. Honestly, I see Nintendo being the last console manufacturer standing as Sony has gotten rid of their studios like Japan Studio that makes games that are not as intensive or time consuming with ballooning budgets.
 
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Gaming isn’t crashing….the old tropes of huge AAA games and expensive, high end tech is crashing in gaming.

Microsoft and Sony chased the wrong dragons, couldn’t read the tea leaves, and are now paying for it. The overwhelming majority of people that play games nowadays (esp. kids) don’t want to be tethered to a TV…they don’t care about teraflops, resolutions, frame rates, and everything that comes with these higher end consoles.

I thought the Switch was brilliant at the time but it’s even more brilliant with concept and delivery with each passing day…it was an amazing pivot.

Backing up to what I said earlier about Sony/MS and you can include Nintendo in this too…I live in a household with 5 kids, watching how they game and consume games has been super interesting. They play on their phones, tablets, and Switch’s almost all of the time…they’re playing Fortnite, Roblox, Minecraft, Smash, Mario Party, Mario Kart, Switch Sports, etc. etc. They could care less about Final Fantasy or Hellblade or Elden Ring…I see it with all their friends too.

Nintendo has the right formula…a great 1st party, enough 3rd party support, and killer indies…and all their retro stuff in their sub service which is exactly how it should be.
I think as far as younger kids are concerned, the £60 video game on a £500 console is a big ask too vs anything on a tablet/switch that can be shared and handed around. Not just more accessible physically but also, in the case of tablets and phones, free-to-start (with all the microtransaction junk that entails). Still, parental controls are a thing. My kid is 8 and gaming is something her friends do on tablets more than switches, switches more than consoles, and only very rarely on computers. Which is completely understandable when any relatively modern hand-me-down smartphone or tablet can run Roblox, Minecraft, Among Us and Fortnite, and it’s a lot less expensive than a dedicated console, and doesn’t require them to take up the living room to do it.

Getting kids to move from free games on tablets to £500+ home consoles is going to be a big ask, and even more so when those platforms stopped catering to kids a long time ago anyway, by aiming most of their big games squarely at adults. We’ve moved from a home console/computer being the default to kids growing up, to their gaming being on a tablet that doesn’t require convincing parents to splash out huge amounts of money at once. Even getting kids to move from tablets to Nintendo consoles is going to be an ask in time, but Nintendo has a greater shot at it than most given the hook is their IP that is at least recognisable to kids through other media, and recognisable to parents as a ‘safe’ option.

At least when we had Game Boys etc, the model of ‘buy the portable hardware, buy £25 video games, they are sold in the same shops as the bigger home consoles and more expensive games etc’, it kinda offered an upgrade path of ‘start here’. These days the upgrade path of ‘start here’ is on their parent’s old smart devices with free games, and the link to move into paying shitloads for less accessible games just isn’t quite the same. It’s been interesting seeing how differently kids engage with gaming these days, and how little the games that are the hobby to them get covered by a gaming press and community that’s been happy to leave them out of the conversation while they watch streamers instead. In the somewhat insecure move for gaming to be very, very grown up in the desire for customers that can spend ever increasing amounts on day 1 video games.

A friend of mine was complaining that the games his kids played were crap the other day. I was like ‘dude we played some licensed games on NES that were repetitive junk and cost £40.’
 
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AAA development is becoming unsustainable as budgets increase and Nintendo saw this from a mile away. Honestly, I see Nintendo being the last console manufacturer standing as Sony has gotten rid of their studios like Japan Studio the makes games that are not as intensive or time consuming with ballooning budgets.
this all the way. the chase for hyper realism and bloated hardware needs over making interesting, distinguishable games was always going to lead to this.
 
The alternatives to capitalism are far worse than the problems it has. There's a reason every capitalist society has outperformed, and has better QOL metrics, than non-capitalist societies. It's the least worst solution.

I do agree unionization would help this industry though
Medieval Europe had Feudalism for 6 centuries.

At least when we had Game Boys etc, the model of ‘buy the portable hardware, buy £25 video games, they are sold in the same shops as the bigger home consoles and more expensive games etc’, it kinda offered an upgrade path of ‘start here’. These days the upgrade path of ‘start here’ is on their parent’s old smart devices with free games, and the link to move into paying shitloads for less accessible games just isn’t quite the same. It’s been interesting seeing how differently kids engage with gaming these days, and how little the games that are the hobby to them get covered by a gaming press and community that’s been happy to leave them out of the conversation while they watch streamers instead. In the somewhat insecure move for gaming to be very, very grown up in the desire for customers that can spend ever increasing amounts on day 1 video games.

A friend of mine was complaining that the games his kids played were crap the other day. I was like ‘dude we played some licensed games on NES that were repetitive junk and cost £40.’
The comparison is interesting. Because Gameboy games were often just as ignored by the mainstream gaming press for not living up to the same standards held by consoles. This arguably continued onwards to the DS.

But yeah, the $60 model is a tough sell these days as games continue only to get more expensive to make and kids have less of a reason to save up money for those big purchases and the options are there for just so much more.
 
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While I wouldn't say that we're in the midst of a full-blown crash, per se, we are definitely at the beginning of a recession for the industry. With the massive layoff spree that we've seen over the last six months or so, there's no doubt that the output of AA and AAA games is going to slow to an absolute crawl compared to the abundance we've been enjoying these last few years.

I don't foresee indie developers being hit quite as hard by these seismic shifts within the industry, thankfully, and since AAA games have been bloated 5-6-year development projects for years indies have accounted for the majority of my gaming playtime and purchases for probably about a decade now.

But there's no doubt about it. These are dark times for the industry that will be felt for years to come, both by consumers and the people actually making the games we enjoy. All of the "unsustainable" warnings are finally coming to roost this year, it seems.
 


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