News Nintendo is suing the creators of popular Switch emulator Yuzu. They claim TOTK was pirated over 1 million times before release

[Síriocaz]

how is yuzu responsible for Zelda TotK illegal downloads?

Part of the problem for Nintendo seems to be that Yuzu advertised the release on the emulator.

 

[Mer.Saloon]

Dang, that's crazy. Which youtubers are playing on unoriginal hardware?

There's a witty follow up to this but I don't have the right brain thought for it.

Comes with being a stick in the mud.

 

[Koren Lesthe]

Never used yuzu or any other Switch emulator but I stand with them on principle. The big corporation will be fine, I assure you.

Big corpo will be fine here, fuck the big corpo there…
I’ve read better arguments in a Dingo Pictures cartoon.

Why not just take a look at the smaller studios that also get their Switch games hacked, eh ? Let see if you’d all agree with the following :

« I hope indies who get their Switch exclusive games get stuffed, they deserve it for publishing their games on a console from a big corporation. I hope the devs of FAST RMX will layoff and close because they never released their games on PC, so off course I HAD to emulate it.

Imagine waiting years and years for Silksong and now I have to pay a full game for it ? Yeah, sure. Yuzu is my friend.

Oh and that Japanese game from Good Feel, the Goemon thing ? Yeah, f’ the devs for not translating it, I’m glad I could mod the ROM to play it in English. What ? They lack money and staff to translate it themselves ? Lol, losers. »

 

[Koren Lesthe]

So when the next Zelda game get downloaded 5 million times and gets leaked by of hundreds of youtube videos before official release Nintendo should just be happy about it?

Please, find better arguments than chaGPT.

 

[VintoWin]

If only there was a world where Nintendo offered official mod support and video output to any type of screen! Like steam. Then you could do all the legal stuff you wanted to do and be separated from the piracy aspect.

 

[Mer.Saloon]

I'll just say I find the idea of an emulator dev having a patreon kinda gross. Feels so ... gentrified

You're supposed to download emulators with the same slightly nervous energy as when you used a fake ID for the first time, and you're meant to get ROMs off sketchy-ass sites with 1 real download button and 5 much more obvious fake ones that could all brick your shitty laptop, just as our forefathers did before us

Oh my bob, this is exactly how I've been feeling about a lot of this situation.

I feel like an old man going, "I liked emulation before it was cool" sort of thing.

 

[rickyson33]

I'll just say I find the idea of an emulator dev having a patreon kinda gross. Feels so ... gentrified

You're supposed to download emulators with the same slightly nervous energy as when you used a fake ID for the first time, and you're meant to get ROMs off sketchy-ass sites with 1 real download button and 5 much more obvious fake ones that could all brick your shitty laptop, just as our forefathers did before us

hell I remember when even downloading official patches for games sometimes required going to shady sites

and even though nothing bad ever came of it for me the no CD exe cracks I used to download for games I already owned just because I didn't like switching discs around was probably the digital security equivalent of hoping not to get COVID while going around licking doorknobs

 

[MSnap]

It probably boils down to people getting cocky. The amount of bragging on Twitter about pirating the game on launch was pretty big, Even Reggie responded to someone bragging about it. Icarus and the sun and all that.

I don’t mind if people pirate anything, but it really bugs me when they act like they’re better than someone who pays for it. Switch generation has been really annoying for this because it got cracked early.

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

I'll just say I find the idea of an emulator dev having a patreon kinda gross. Feels so ... gentrified

You're supposed to download emulators with the same slightly nervous energy as when you used a fake ID for the first time, and you're meant to get ROMs off sketchy-ass sites with 1 real download button and 5 much more obvious fake ones that could all brick your shitty laptop, just as our forefathers did before us

I read this post to the sound of "System of a Down - The Legend of Zelda.exe"

 

[Dekuman]

So if im understanding correctly, part of the claim is that because game releases require patching to get the emulator to run the game perfectly, having games release day 1 fully patched on said emulator suggests the devs used pirated versions of the game to patch up these games ahead of time?

If so, Nintendo would have to prove it, but considering they waited this long, they must have more than just a hunch.

 

[Mer.Saloon]

So if im understanding correctly, part of the claim is that because game releases require patching to get the emulator to run the game perfectly, having games release day 1 fully patched on said emulator suggests the devs used pirated versions of the game to patch up these games ahead of time?

If so, Nintendo would have to prove it, but considering they waited this long, they must have more than just a hunch.

If they're not an Archie Comics legal team, then they should be competent; they've probably been building up evidence for a while.

I mean, if a bunch of Famiboards users pulled up vague rumors of piracy in a couple of hours from the public patreon. Who's to say what Nintendo dredged up from the grime?

 

[7hatDeadCat]

It's all a smoke screen. They sent a cease and desist because they're actually going to recruit the Yuzu devs to aid in the development of Switch 2's emulation layer for backwards compatibility. /j

recruiting ryujinx would give them a more accurate emulator tho

 

[Leica]

So if im understanding correctly, part of the claim is that because game releases require patching to get the emulator to run the game perfectly, having games release day 1 fully patched on said emulator suggests the devs used pirated versions of the game to patch up these games ahead of time?

If so, Nintendo would have to prove it, but considering they waited this long, they must have more than just a hunch.

The Ryujinx team has been super critical of Yuzu for a while because of this, that's why I mentioned earlier this thread that if Yuzu goes away Ryujinx is still an alternative because they've generally been much cleaner and less blatant with advertising.

 

[Jbone916]

I don’t mind if people pirate anything, but it really bugs me when they act like they’re better than someone who pays for it. Switch generation has been really annoying for this because it got cracked early.

The phrase “It’s always morally correct to pirate Nintendo games” has been thrown around quite often on social media the past few years. To me, it reeks of people looking for some sort of self-justification for their actions.

 

[Mango]

If only there was a world where Nintendo offered official mod support and video output to any type of screen! Like steam. Then you could do all the legal stuff you wanted to do and be separated from the piracy aspect.

I'm of the opinion they should allow the NSO games on PC, but I fail to see how putting modern games on steam would help anything other than to tank their hardware sales. Plus in either scenario pirates will still find other reasons to pirate.

 

[Lugia667]

The phrase “It’s always morally correct to pirate Nintendo games” has been thrown around quite often on social media the past few years. To me, it reeks of people looking for some sort of self-justification for their actions.

will people apply the same to Sony and MS after their brutal lay-offs? Doubt it

 

[VintoWin]

I'm of the opinion they should allow the NSO games on PC, but I fail to see how putting modern games on steam would help anything other than to tank their hardware sales. Plus in either scenario pirates will still find other reasons to pirate.

Oh no, they don't have to do that (offer games like a 3rd party) I mean official mod support on their system and then let you output onto another screen. So you stay on their ecosystem but get to do all the things modders/emulator enthusiasts love, or at least most of it. Without any of the illegal piracy.

Because this is always the argument in favor of emulators. Is that people are using their own stuff, their own games. Just modding them and also upscaling them. And people don't want that taken away from them. This is the non-illegal part that people want to stay.

 

[Mer.Saloon]

The Ryujinx team has been super critical of Yuzu for a while because of this, that's why I mentioned earlier this thread that if Yuzu goes away Ryujinx is still an alternative because they've generally been much cleaner and less blatant with advertising.

My hope is that if this does go in Nintendos favor, it's just Yuzu that goes under and everything else is just left alone. Emulation lives another day and at worst there are bruised egos from pirates.

 

[kimbo99]

Yeah. I think that from the piracy perspective, the users can get fucked. But from a legitimate buyer trying to enter the Wind Temple without the framerate and resolution absolutely tanking, I get it.

Edit: Something we’ll never get the data for, but I’d be very curious to see, is just how many users are legitimate owners of the games they’re playing. It’s why I find myself pretty cynical when it comes to proponents of emulation of modern Nintendo games. Anecdotally, most people I know in person that have dabbled absolutely do not own the games they’re booting up. Wouldn’t be surprising to find the majority of legitimate users probably reside on forums like this.

Same boat. Most people I know that enter into the emulation sphere simply pirate(d) games and don't actually own them. I get the scope of games preservation, but like you said, without numbers one can assume preservation advocates are the minority.

 

[Scrawnton]

This doesn't make sense because it's almost like it's giving some validity to the argument that Emulation is illegal or should be made illegal but in reality, nobody owes Nintendo or any company for that matter to not start making Emulators until the system is out of stock and no longer available. What does the age of the system have to do with anything?

Emulation is legal full stop. You can make an emulator for a system that's 24 hours old or 24 years old. Same thing.

You are right. Emulating your owned games is legal. But pirating games is not. We shouldn't pretend that all 1,000,000 of those people playing early emulated copies of TotK went on to buy the game to make it "legal."

Everyone wants to claim that emulation is legal and that it's okay and we don't owe these companies everything. I'm willing to meet you half way and say that I can see no issue with people who dump their own game copies and system keys just to have better graphics and performance, but in that scenario you'd also have to admit that an equal amount of people most likely are just straight up stealing and pirating these games that exist in an active system where games are readily available to purchase legally.

Long story short, emulation being legal is great on a perfect world, but we will be fools to admit that a lot of people aren't using these tools for straight piracy, which is an issue with active platforms.

 

[Serif]

Oh no, they don't have to do that (offer games like a 3rd party) I mean official mod support on their system and then let you output onto another screen. So you stay on their ecosystem but get to do all the things modders/emulator enthusiasts love, or at least most of it. Without any of the illegal piracy.

Because this is always the argument in favor of emulators. Is that people are using their own stuff, their own games. Just modding them and also upscaling them. And people don't want that taken away from them. This is the non-illegal part that people want to stay.

What is meant here by 'output onto another screen', streaming?

 

[Jbone916]

will people apply the same to Sony and MS after their brutal lay-offs? Doubt it

I mean, probably? Ultimately, people have a tendency to try to justify their less-noble actions in order to prevent feelings of guilt, regardless of whether the justifications themselves actually hold up to scrutiny. For example, someone who pirates software may try to justify it by saying something along the lines of “big company bad” or “it’s <company’s> fault for having high prices.”

 

[Mango]

Oh no, they don't have to do that (offer games like a 3rd party) I mean official mod support on their system and then let you output onto another screen. So you stay on their ecosystem but get to do all the things modders/emulator enthusiasts love, or at least most of it. Without any of the illegal piracy.

Because this is always the argument in favor of emulators. Is that people are using their own stuff, their own games. Just modding them and also upscaling them. And people don't want that taken away from them. This is the non-illegal part that people want to stay.

Official mod support might be cool, not sure what you mean about a separate screen. Still think they should put the NSO games on PC, but not as part of NSO, more like offer them as a virtual console service where you can buy games individually on PC. I only think this because of that Gabe Newell quote, but realistically I don't think it would in anyway curb piracy of older Nintendo games.

will people apply the same to Sony and MS after their brutal lay-offs? Doubt it

Over the last few years there has been a deliberate move to demonize Nintendo, largely from major YouTubers. Mostly coming from reactionary takes in regards to aggressive, and often crappy, business practices. I feel as if because of this people are more willing to scrutinize everything Nintendo does than either Microsoft or Sony.

People will talk about how layoffs are bad, but then move on in a day.

 

[Hailinel]

They are against most emulators but it does seem like they found a vulnerability with Yuzu that could make things difficult for them.

Make no mistake, Yuzu is in DEEP trouble if the allegations Nintendo is being made are true

Yeah. I think this case really is less "Nintendo vs Piracy" and more "Nintendo vs Specific Emulator Creator That May Have Done Something Very Stupid".

If the Yuzu team did something in their practice that is actually legally questionable in the creation of their emulator(and it's doubtful that Nintendo would bring a case like this to court without doing their homework), Nintendo is going to try to pin them on that.

Nintendo can't take down all emulators and shouldn't be able to do so, but like, if a guy makes an emulator using actual Switch access keys, and also runs a Patreon to make money off of this work...I mean, yeah. That's not exactly cut-and-dried.

 

[Raccoon]

the following post is a joke and for all intents and purposes does not endorse or condone piracy

imho it is okay to pirate zelda but not pikmin

 

[Secu]

If emulators are legal, then Nintendo cannot bully them with the law.

 

[thoughthaver]

wait they had a patreon?

nintendo was clearly ignoring them through gritted teeth and they bungle it like that?

 

[zumaddy]

"Notes 1 million copies of Tears of the Kingdom downloaded prior to game's release; says Yuzu's Patreon support doubled during that time"

If that's true, they have a case. Yuzu devs got too close to the sun.

 

[Rocketjay]

The hackers will do everything they can to hack into Switch 2, they seem obsessed about destroying Nintendo, as evidence by their Subreddits and youtube videos, they are aiming to kill Nintendo as a company true their efforts, and they will succeed in the future if nothing changes.

They seem more obsessed with emulating their games rather than destroying them. Maybe they do feel good to give a Big Corporation a middle finger as well, but who doesn't?

 

[Yzz]

I wonder if the lawsuit showing this late has something to do with the recent news of Sony announcing it would become more platform agnostic?
If the Pandora's box of emulation becoming illegal was opened, then Sony, Sega, and others would gain the right to sue other publishers for emulating their consoles in retro rereleases. The Symphony of the Night PS4 port suggests that Sony didn't want emulators of their consoles in competing platforms, and that would have been a problem for Nintendo's partners who utilize PSX / PSP emulation in the Switch, but now Sony may be willing to budge.

I would've thought console modding is the bigger "threat". I'm still astonished by how easy is to alter a Switch these days.

IIRC hardware sales make a little bit more than half of Nintendo's total revenue, so even you don't buy anything in a modded Switch, Nintendo still gets your money. That's not the case for emulation.

 

[Wtfpigeons]

For the people ITT who are implying piracy is impacting nintendo in any meaningful way, I want you to do this simple exercise:

Go on any illegal switch rom website and look at download numbers, run through multiple if you're so inclined, then look at top viewed switch emulation videos on youtube (iirc most are BsoD's emulation channel videos and maybe someOrdinaryGamers) and if you want, speculate a number I don't know, half? a quarter? a third? of those views are say, from people who actually watched and set up these emulators only to play illegally obtained roms.

Now, go on nintendo financial report websites, compare these numbers with their switch game sales numbers. It doesn't even make a dent.

The average nintendo enjoyer doesn't give a damn or barely even knows emulators.

If something were to happen to nintendo due to emulation being widely available, it would've happened already, years ago. The reason it doesn't is simple:

Nintendo makes unique software+hardware experiences that can't be emulated PROPERLY on PC.

• the wii remote: even IF you connect one to a pc, many people don't have one, only a mouse and keyboard and even IF they bought one, it's definitely not as intuitive or appealing as turning on a wii, being greeted by that sleek interface (which I know emulators can run, but stay with me here), putting a disk and hitting play and having everything work percectly without setting anything up
• the dual screen ds/3ds and 3d display: this one doesn't need an explanation. yes, I know you can use split screen or another monitor and no, it's not intuitive, it's not the same, the other monitor needs to be touch-enabled otherwise you have to use a mouse
• the whole joycons concept: emulators do many of the things these controllers do in the most hacky way possible: your controller has no nfc support? oh, you have to use the mouse, pick from a list of amiibo and THEN grab your controller once again. your controller has no gyro support? too bad. you won't be able to finish a couple dungeons in zelda, what? you want a controller in can split in half and share with a friend? well, too bad, should have bought joycons then. what? they don't come with a joycon grip? well, at this point you might as well buy a switch.

And these are some only a couple of the examples, I could go on with this for hours.

Jesus Christ, why do people actually justify pirating constantly?

What you’re saying is like justifying shop lifting. “It’s ok because not a lot of people do it”.

 

[NineTailSage]

The problem that publishers like Nintendo are having with the emulation community and people who choose to use this emulation software to pirate their games is. We've already witnessed this song and dance before in the music industry. Stuff like Limewire, BearShare and Napster when it first came out facilitated the environment for people to not purchase music anymore.

Which lead up to the age of streaming media where nobody owns anything physical anymore and we've all been conditioned that it is better and more convenient for us. The fact that we have a company around like Limited Run Games to manufacture physical copies of major publisher's titles is pretty telling of where we are headed as gamers.

 

[kasparov77]

Jesus Christ, why do people actually justify pirating constantly?

What you’re saying is like justifying shop lifting. “It’s ok because not a lot of people do it”.

Being skeptical about the financial damage a company suffered from piracy ≠ justifying piracy or even influencing someone to do so.

You also have to understand that sometimes, piracy is a matter of accessibility. Some companies (notably nintendo) are very unfriendly when it comes to that - they don't bother with adjusting prices properly to coincide with certain countries economic reality nor do they offer proper discounts to their games (at least not commonly).

I used to be the kind of person who would say "well, if you can't buy it just wait till you can, save some money, don't be an asshole and pirate".

Now I realize it's way more complicated than that.

 

[dyle]

Was moreso referring to why the lawsuit was filed right now as opposed to say, shortly after TOTKs release (when it might have been more appropriate timewise, since that's when Yuzu got public attention). The actual stuff they are suing over hasn't much to do with profiting from the piracy itself via Google Play specifically, but it's a "known factor" that one of the quickest ways to get Nintendo's legal team after you is to commercialize anything related to their games or systems.

Nintendo likely sent them a C&D relatively shortly after TotK's release and then got to work on this lawsuit. A big corporation has no need to rush when pursuing a case like this. That makes the lawyers charge more and won't have any impact on the outcome.

 

[daybreak]

It's the classic argument of if those sales were actually lost in any significant way.

Historical evidence suggests that no, those 'lost sales' would not have translated into real sales for Nintendo. The people who wanted to pirate will not have purchased the game if they couldn't emulate. The film and music industries try to argue this point for many years and haven't gotten anywhere with it either.

Yeah, this comes up all the time. It is, of course, plausible and almost certainly the case to say that 1 million downloads does not equal 1 million lost sales, as that's something that's impossible to prove one way or the other. However, it's also plausible that 1 million downloads probably does equal some lost sales, especially in the case of the game being available via piracy avenues in addition to being fully playable via emulator ahead of the game's official release.

I think the lawsuit, overall, is bad. Emulation is an incredible thing and should be protected.

That's a two way street, though. I'm a bystander who has watched the Yuzu stuff unfold over the last few years and it's my personal opinion that the LLC that operates Yuzu and its development team have not been good stewards of emulation and are operating in such a way that they put the future of emulation at risk, and now that's happening. You don't see Dolphin, Ryujinx, etc, being targeted - but they might be if a legal precedent is set.

 

[crazybenjamin]

Regarding the "pirates are only a small fraction of players, they're not hurting anyone" argument: I'm not trying to point fingers at anyone specifically, but I would probably be more accepting of that argument if it wasn't for certain people who then turn around and say "but more people should pirate": they're outright advocating for a world where the "pirates are only a small fraction" argument will no longer be valid.
Or to put it another way, the good kind of pirate is the kind that only ever defends their own personal actions. The bad kind of pirate is the kind that tries to recruit everyone else to become a pirate as well.

...I don't think "Your hardware is underpowered so emulation is ok" is gonna hold up in court

Even putting that aside, I don't even see it as a good moral argument. Raw horsepower is not a free lunch, if the Switch was more powerful I could just as easily make the argument that it's Nintendo's fault for making their console too expensive.

 

[Yamanoi]

The real reason switch 2 got delayed

 

[Enton]

The phrase “It’s always morally correct to pirate Nintendo games” has been thrown around quite often on social media the past few years. To me, it reeks of people looking for some sort of self-justification for their actions.

will people apply the same to Sony and MS after their brutal lay-offs? Doubt it

That phrase 'always morally correct to pirate Nintendo games' was coined by Stephanie Sterling way back. Pretty sure the reason was that Nintendo 'stole' money from a lot of YouTubers by messing with monetization by abusing copyright.

The term has no real justification beyond this, so piracy of other publishers' games cannot hide behind that 'argument'.


Edit: there's a more recent video regarding Sony, but the reason there is different.

I think it's tiresome to debate the morality of piracy, since no one really gets convinced by the other site anyway. Just make peace that other people may look at it differently.
It's also pointless because this will be a intellectual property law suit. There won't be any morals, just economic interests. Regardless of outcome, a line in the sand will be drawn.

 

[SiG]

That phrase 'always morally correct to pirate Nintendo games' was coined by Stephanie Sterling way back. Pretty sure the reason was that Nintendo 'stole' money from a lot of YouTubers by messing with monetization by abusing copyright.

The term has no real justification beyond this, so piracy of other publishers' games cannot hide behind that 'argument'.

Some people just hate Nintendo that much, huh?

 

[Mango]

I really dislike Stephanie and the attitude she carries so that only makes me hate the phrase more.

Edit: I agree with the sentiment tho, as it is kinda pointless to debate over morals.

 

[Rocketjay]

Some people just hate Nintendo that much, huh?

If people get screwed over by Nintendo abusing copyright grounds on youtube, it's pretty understandable for them to be resentful of them.

 

[Mekanos]

As someone who has never pirated a Switch game in their life and has been buying and playing Nintendo games for nearly four decades now, I cannot imagine being upset that a group of people feel self righteous pirating from a mega corporation. The talented developers and workers at Nintendo have made many classic games that I love dearly over the decades, but Nintendo as a corporation does little but sit on IP ownership and reap the profit of it.

 

[ertaboy356b]

The thing is, if you want to use Yuzu legally, you need a hacked switch. I'm pretty sure the majority of users doesn't have a hacked switch or a switch to begin with else they would just play the game on a hacked switch. That makes this a piracy machine. I can understand pirating game on a hacked switch though, it's few and far between but making it accessible to the mass market via PC and Mobile is asking to be sued.

 

[zumaddy]

I am confused by how many people online think this is outrageous. Yuzu bragged about releasing games early and ran a Patreon that made money, Nintendo is not insane for following this up. Whether or not it's fair is an entirely different question.

 

[Hailinel]

I am confused by how many people online think this is outrageous. Yuzu bragged about releasing games early and ran a Patreon that made money, Nintendo is not insane for following this up. Whether or not it's fair is an entirely different question.

Yeah. This is really a case of Yuzu apparently not only flying too close to the sun, but flipping it off.

 

[Mango]

I am confused by how many people online think this is outrageous. Yuzu bragged about releasing games early and ran a Patreon that made money, Nintendo is not insane for following this up. Whether or not it's fair is an entirely different question.

"Nintendo Bad mentality"

All that's missing is a moistcritical video where he'll call the company the most evil company on the planet. Not that Nintendo is perfect, far from it, but people overreact to everything they do.

 

[Serif]

I also learned this year that explicit plagiarism is not only fine, but encouraged, because the target is a big corporation that has made some controversial business / legal decisions.

These conversations become muddled once folks are labelled as pro/anti corporate and console warring is thrown into the mix. One of my least favorite things is being called 'pro-corporate' because I dared to offer context in some of these conversations. I'm so pro-corporate I emulated Xenoblade DE to escape the blurry low res TAA mess on Switch (a pain in the ass to do properly btw - piracy/emulation is not particularly convenient anymore).

 

[TrashMarket]

I realize this forum is literally named after a nintendo console but in light of yet another example of nintendo’s draconian legal practices and the complete disinterest in game preservation in the industry at large outside of the emulation space do we need to have this same conversation again? is litigating the details of why this group of hobbyists just happen to be bad, actually necessary when the problems are clearly structural?

 

[Monster Mash]

The smaller-mid sized studios are being absolutely being impacted by piracy, I assure you.

Can you provide a source, or anything more concrete than your personal assurance?

 

[Lugia667]

Yeah preservation, because Smash Ultimate and Tears of the Kingdom are super rare games desperately in need of "preservation"

sorry but until the Switch isn't being sold anymore, the preservation shit falls flat for me. Especially when the most common games being "preserved" are conveniently the most popular ones