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News Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom devs on using original ideas and not copying other games

lemonfresh

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New Aonuma Interview released on how he doesn't copy other games when making Zelda

https://nintendoeverything.com/zelda-tears-of-the-kingdom-original-ideas-elden-ring/

The hit game Elden Ring is said to be inspired by Breath of the Wild. Was that game also a source of inspiration for you last year?

Fujibayashi:
Sorry, but we didn’t really have the chance to play the game. We were too occupied with the development of Tears of the Kingdom, which resulted in us not really being able to play games. We did hear about it, though.

Even if we had the time to play games, we wouldn’t reuse ideas from them. When we make a game, we come up with a general concept to come up with new ideas based on that.

That is pretty interesting, because with many games from other studios, designers often talk about their inspiration from other titles. Is Zelda being made in more of a bubble?

Aonuma:
Of course there are situations where you make something that’s similar to an existing game, but I would never try to put the ideas of others in my game. I’m too proud for that. I’m always looking for original ideas.

When I made A Link Between Worlds, you had a 3D system when you jumped, which made it look like Link was coming right at you. When I showed this to former Nintendo president (Satoru) Iwata, he said he “didn’t know this was possible”. I was very happy to hear that, because to me that’s the essence of game development: figuring out things no one else has thought of.
 
I mean the Elden Ring thing is kinda obvious for me, it came out in 2022, TOTK had to have already had it's vision for the game done by then. If they wanted to take more from that game......we may still be waiting for it now
 
Didn't Aonuma literally say the team played Skyrim for Breath of the Wild inspiration
Yeah, Aonuma clearly stated how they took inspiration from several open-world games when they were making BotW.

Might be a translation hiccup? Like what Aonuma is really saying is that they're not just straight up copying ideas without considering how it fits into their vision.
 
The read I'm getting is that mid-development, games coming out during that aren't really looked at as much.

However, it is nearly inconceivable to believe everything can be made in isolation, even mid-development. Ideas come from many different things, and AAA game development requires many different people now. You may not consciously think you're copying, but you are certainly influenced in some way, no matter how small, by what you're consuming.
 
Assuming there is no lost in translation shenanigans going on it’s very strange of Aonuma to equate inspiration to straight up lifting ideas from other games. You can come up with an original idea that was still inspired in part by something else. Not talking Elden Ring specifically here but just in general.
 
Here's a direct quote from Aonuma in the Skyrim interview by the way. I don't really know what he's trying to get at though

"In the past I've also actually said that I have played Skyrim, so it's not necessarily that I don't play games," Aonuma stated. "But we don't look at it from, 'Oh, what kind of things can we take from this game?' It's more of like, 'How can we prepare for this? What should we expect from games like this?'"
 
Here's a direct quote from Aonuma in the Skyrim interview by the way. I don't really know what he's trying to get at though



Probably looking at other games to see how large, open games are handled, see what works and what doesn't for The Legend of Zelda.
 
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This has to be a bad translation.
this sounds rather full of himself, and he himself talked about skyrim and red dead redemption. If he talks about only himself, that i could see.
Then again, this would read like he and fuji are solely responsible for that game.

Its obvious, parts of dev teams do for sure play games, see games, become inspired by other stuff.

The point with iwata meaning "i did not know it was possible"... to have a character in 3d jump towards the screen? something movies have done since always? yeah, dont buy that. also has to be a misstranslation or missing crutial context (maybe he didnt knew that that ENGINE was capable of that, or while playtesting he did not expect it to be implemented in that game)
 
As no one could have foreseen, people are giving this quote the least charitable interpretation possible
 
Not gonna lie, you're a dumbass if you ask if TOTK was influenced by Elden Ring during an interview.
 
Elden Ring came out a year before development was complete on TOTK. Even if they did play it, what could possibly be implemented at that stage of development?
 
I'm not really sure what they could draw from Elden Ring, anyway. The stuff people say is better about Elden Ring aren't huge innovations, they're concepts that existed already that the Zelda team deliberately chose not to implement. Unbreakable weapons and more movesets, a greater emphasis on aesthetic variety in enemies, putting dungeons that are just like the ones from earlier games into the world, none of those are things that people didn't even think of before Elden Ring. If they were to focus on those things in the next Zelda, I'd suspect they did it because people have been complaining about those things since Breath of the Wild rather than because Elden Ring inspired them.
 
I mean, they did copy a lot of things from one of the most important game of the last decade so they can't say they don't copy other games.

Breath of the wild
 
there are definitly people who seems to want a Souls game with a Zelda skin, that's never going to happen
 
Elden Ring didn't influence the dev team, but it may have influenced the people playing the game. For example, I spent a lot more time finding interesting things from the map, a habit that I picked up playing Elden Ring and didn't do much in BotW. TotK has a lot of freedom on how you play it, and you may end up seeing influences when it's just you showing your influences.

I'm not saying it's what sparked the interview question, it just came to my mind while reading it 😅
 
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I'm sure the idea of completing the map by using towers is from Assassin's Creed.
I read this time and time again, and, not to have a go at you, it’s a notoriously bad take. The towers could exist in any game. Tall buildings, city skyscrapers, and other structures such as trees and mountaintops have existed forever, and have been used as a solution to masking hardware limitations. The towers aren’t taken from other games, and the whole “Ubisoft Towers” meme does Breath a disservice. A key mechanic that was promoted was climbing. The logic therefore follows that, to showcase it, tall structures make the most sense here - We see climbing mountains, walls (which were previously invisible, or required a hookshot), and trees (there’s the famous story about Miyamoto getting lost in the trees, and I suspect that they put Evermeans in Tears to troll/give him a surprise…).

Each tower isn’t climbed in the same way - they’re puzzles, which can be cracked in multiple ways, including unconventionally. Once you unlock them, they show you the topography of the area you’re in, but your map isn’t overloaded with information. You aren’t told what the map locations are until you go there, and they don’t tell you where to go, how many things you need, they don’t give you a checklist, or tell you where the side quests are. The towers also serve as vantage points. So, you identify a place of interest and plan your route in any direction. The reason for all of this is that the premise of LOZ is “Go And Get Lost”. The design philosophy is also linked to the sense of adventure one has from carving their own path and creating their own story, not the story getting in the way of the player’s freedom, and somewhere within that, there is a lesson for the player in how to read a map. Ubisoft Towers don’t do this. There are reasons why Breath is considered revolutionary, and the sum of these so-called “small intricacies” play a huge part in that.

Also, When one speaks about “inspiration” and “influence”, this is as much about what not to do, or how a purpose could be better served. Overloading your map with info can say “Look at all this stuff you can do!!” - AAA development does this a lot, to justify escalating costs. But on the other hand, it can also be overwhelming. Removing that can remove the shackles on the player’s freedom. You can do all the shrines, towers, and Divine Beasts, spend 100-200 hours or even more in the game, and still complete less than 30%… But the player still FEELS that they’ve accomplished so much, and doesn’t have to 100% it. When you’re done, you’re done, you can let it go… and that’s a liberating feeling. One I never had playing other games before it. It’s a further testament to Breath that new and fascinating gameplay discoveries are still made in this game post-release.

Red Dead Redemption is another game which some might cite - Specifically, the horses. In RDR, you catch a horse, tame it and ride it. They function like cars, in that they get you from A to B, AND they respond to the player’s will from the start. They also crash into trees. But BOTW is different - Horses have varying temperaments, and that’s where your “realism” comes in. You catch a horse, tame it, and ride it. BUT at first, it doesn’t respond the way you want it to all of the time. Horses aren’t inanimate objects, they’re majestic creatures with feelings. You have to earn their trust. You couldn’t just mount one and take part in the Dressage, for example. You bond with your horse. You feed them apples, soothe them, take them to a stable. You give them names. You feel something in the unfortunate event that you lose one. So, what we have here is examples of the same things existing in different games, but not copied, as they’re there for different reasons and serve different purposes. In fact, in Nintendo’s case, it was over a decade of studying horses, and building on gameplay ideas, which weren’t possible on their past hardware - For LOZ: Twilight Princess, they went on a horse riding field trip.

I note that some will read into this article as them being “full of themselves” - Far from it, and I strongly suspect that there’s an element of words lost in translation here, too. But it isn’t far removed from how most universities view plagiarism - One cites their sources and doesn’t copy, because at heart lies respect for the work of others. They don’t insult other developers, and they don’t name anybody.

BTW, Tears was complete when Elden Ring released, and a year was spent polishing the finished product for release. It makes sense that they couldn’t have played it. It’s deeply lamentable that gaming publications, which ought to know better, continue to put a vicious poison twist on words in the name of cheap clickbait.
 
I read this time and time again, and, not to have a go at you, it’s a notoriously bad take. The towers could exist in any game. Tall buildings, city skyscrapers, and other structures such as trees and mountaintops have existed forever, and have been used as a solution to masking hardware limitations. The towers aren’t taken from other games, and the whole “Ubisoft Towers” meme does Breath a disservice. A key mechanic that was promoted was climbing. The logic therefore follows that, to showcase it, tall structures make the most sense here - We see climbing mountains, walls (which were previously invisible, or required a hookshot), and trees (there’s the famous story about Miyamoto getting lost in the trees, and I suspect that they put Evermeans in Tears to troll/give him a surprise…).

Each tower isn’t climbed in the same way - they’re puzzles, which can be cracked in multiple ways, including unconventionally. Once you unlock them, they show you the topography of the area you’re in, but your map isn’t overloaded with information. You aren’t told what the map locations are until you go there, and they don’t tell you where to go, how many things you need, they don’t give you a checklist, or tell you where the side quests are. The towers also serve as vantage points. So, you identify a place of interest and plan your route in any direction. The reason for all of this is that the premise of LOZ is “Go And Get Lost”. The design philosophy is also linked to the sense of adventure one has from carving their own path and creating their own story, not the story getting in the way of the player’s freedom, and somewhere within that, there is a lesson for the player in how to read a map. Ubisoft Towers don’t do this. There are reasons why Breath is considered revolutionary, and the sum of these so-called “small intricacies” play a huge part in that.

Yeah, I think the idea that standing on high things gives you the opportunity to get your bearings and see stuff from far away isn't something Ubisoft invented, it's weird how people act like it's an idea that wouldn't exist without them. I also saw someone citing "collectibles" as an example of something the Zelda team copied, as if Golden Skulltulas, Poe's Souls, most of the objectives in Mario and Banjo-Kazooie and Donkey Kong, etc. didn't exist way before any modern open world game.
 
4z2tj7.jpg


"Hey. Mr. Aonuma. I've got some ideas to improve Zelda.
One. Zelda must have legacy dungeons, unbreakable weapons, and access to a jumping horse.
Two. Whenever Zelda is not being influenced by Elden Ring, everyone should be asking 'was it influenced by Elden Ring?'"
 
I read this time and time again, and, not to have a go at you, it’s a notoriously bad take. The towers could exist in any game. Tall buildings, city skyscrapers, and other structures such as trees and mountaintops have existed forever, and have been used as a solution to masking hardware limitations. The towers aren’t taken from other games, and the whole “Ubisoft Towers” meme does Breath a disservice. A key mechanic that was promoted was climbing. The logic therefore follows that, to showcase it, tall structures make the most sense here - We see climbing mountains, walls (which were previously invisible, or required a hookshot), and trees (there’s the famous story about Miyamoto getting lost in the trees, and I suspect that they put Evermeans in Tears to troll/give him a surprise…).

Each tower isn’t climbed in the same way - they’re puzzles, which can be cracked in multiple ways, including unconventionally. Once you unlock them, they show you the topography of the area you’re in, but your map isn’t overloaded with information. You aren’t told what the map locations are until you go there, and they don’t tell you where to go, how many things you need, they don’t give you a checklist, or tell you where the side quests are. The towers also serve as vantage points. So, you identify a place of interest and plan your route in any direction. The reason for all of this is that the premise of LOZ is “Go And Get Lost”. The design philosophy is also linked to the sense of adventure one has from carving their own path and creating their own story, not the story getting in the way of the player’s freedom, and somewhere within that, there is a lesson for the player in how to read a map. Ubisoft Towers don’t do this. There are reasons why Breath is considered revolutionary, and the sum of these so-called “small intricacies” play a huge part in that.

Also, When one speaks about “inspiration” and “influence”, this is as much about what not to do, or how a purpose could be better served. Overloading your map with info can say “Look at all this stuff you can do!!” - AAA development does this a lot, to justify escalating costs. But on the other hand, it can also be overwhelming. Removing that can remove the shackles on the player’s freedom. You can do all the shrines, towers, and Divine Beasts, spend 100-200 hours or even more in the game, and still complete less than 30%… But the player still FEELS that they’ve accomplished so much, and doesn’t have to 100% it. When you’re done, you’re done, you can let it go… and that’s a liberating feeling. One I never had playing other games before it. It’s a further testament to Breath that new and fascinating gameplay discoveries are still made in this game post-release.

Red Dead Redemption is another game which some might cite - Specifically, the horses. In RDR, you catch a horse, tame it and ride it. They function like cars, in that they get you from A to B, AND they respond to the player’s will from the start. They also crash into trees. But BOTW is different - Horses have varying temperaments, and that’s where your “realism” comes in. You catch a horse, tame it, and ride it. BUT at first, it doesn’t respond the way you want it to all of the time. Horses aren’t inanimate objects, they’re majestic creatures with feelings. You have to earn their trust. You couldn’t just mount one and take part in the Dressage, for example. You bond with your horse. You feed them apples, soothe them, take them to a stable. You give them names. You feel something in the unfortunate event that you lose one. So, what we have here is examples of the same things existing in different games, but not copied, as they’re there for different reasons and serve different purposes. In fact, in Nintendo’s case, it was over a decade of studying horses, and building on gameplay ideas, which weren’t possible on their past hardware - For LOZ: Twilight Princess, they went on a horse riding field trip.

I note that some will read into this article as them being “full of themselves” - Far from it, and I strongly suspect that there’s an element of words lost in translation here, too. But it isn’t far removed from how most universities view plagiarism - One cites their sources and doesn’t copy, because at heart lies respect for the work of others. They don’t insult other developers, and they don’t name anybody.

BTW, Tears was complete when Elden Ring released, and a year was spent polishing the finished product for release. It makes sense that they couldn’t have played it. It’s deeply lamentable that gaming publications, which ought to know better, continue to put a vicious poison twist on words in the name of cheap clickbait.

Oh great!
 
0
Yeah, I think the idea that standing on high things gives you the opportunity to get your bearings and see stuff from far away isn't something Ubisoft invented, it's weird how people act like it's an idea that wouldn't exist without them. I also saw someone citing "collectibles" as an example of something the Zelda team copied, as if Golden Skulltulas, Poe's Souls, most of the objectives in Mario and Banjo-Kazooie and Donkey Kong, etc. didn't exist way before any modern open world game.
Tbf Ubisoft didn’t invent it but they did popularize the specific game design called “The Ubisoft Tower” with the AC franchise. It’s used so much that that is how people refer to any similar mechanic even if there are obvious differences or implementations.
 
4z2tj7.jpg


"Hey. Mr. Aonuma. I've got some ideas to improve Zelda.
One. Zelda must have legacy dungeons, unbreakable weapons, and access to a jumping horse.
Two. Whenever Zelda is not being influenced by Elden Ring, everyone should be asking 'was it influenced by Elden Ring?'"
Legit it feels like 50% of the TOTK discourse is comparing it to Elden Ring and as someone who hasn't played it I feel hopelessly lost lol
 
Tbf Ubisoft didn’t invent it but they did popularize the specific game design called “The Ubisoft Tower” with the AC franchise. It’s used so much that that is how people refer to any similar mechanic even if there are obvious differences or implementations.
i remember a particular 7/10 review for BOTW in which the very last line was "Oh and it has Ubisoft map towers. Go figure." or something like that. and it completely delegitimized the entire review in my eyes.
 
Jimquisition. Stopped reading their reviews after that one. I didn't care so much about the 7/10 score, but it felt like it was written with a chip on their shoulder.
Tbf that is their brand they present outwardly. I can understand though given I feel that way about certain topics they’ve spoken about over the years
 
Tbf that is their brand they present outwardly. I can understand though given I feel that way about certain topics they’ve spoken about over the years
It just revealed that maybe these words are just buzzwords to them because if they played these things and basically made a name for themselves complaining about these things but can't see the difference then it's not an outlet I can really vibe with on a critical level.
 


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