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Discussion This direct tell us something, Nintendo listens. However, this ask an interesting question.

omniryu

omniryu

Koopa
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Why can't we wait? It had been asked time and time again for a woman or zelda to play a main character role in at least one game in the franchise. A lot of fans says Nintendo doesn't listen, buy they do.... a lot of times they do. I am not talking about this in particular. Remember how fans asked for a new Pokémon snap, and guess what? We got one.

I think that I stead of saying they don't listen, we should say, " I hope they take what we say into consideration" or "We'll see. "
 
Selfishly, because it takes so long for them to respond indicating they're even listening in the first place.

I saw Wii U and thought it was THE perfect console for a Pokemon Snap reboot using assymetric gameplay incorporating the tablet, after waiting 13 years since the first and only entry. Wii U fizzled, and after waiting nearly two decades with nary a whisper I personally gave up at that point. I was convinced of nothing more than VC re-releases over and over again until the heatdeath of the universe as nothing more than lip service to pay homage to history.

Was it a welcome surprise? Absolutely! Did it meet expectations? Exceeded them; I happily put in 80 hours and will gladly pop it on now and then to chip away at the photodex. But by the time they showed it off I was more shocked than pleasantly surprised. What on Earth convinced them now? Who the hell had blackmail on the C-suite at Nintendo/Game Freak to make them farm it out to Bamco?

I know Nintendo, behemoth that it is, is not going to turn on a dime. By all means march to the beat of your own drum! Just...pick up the tempo, it's well overdue
 
Game development takes a long time and people haven't internalized it. Just look at the post above mine asking to pick up the tempo, as if they're slow to pass off fans or something
 
amiigo said:
Game development takes a long time and people haven't internalized it. Just look at the post above mine asking to pick up the tempo, as if they're slow to pass off fans or something
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Did New Pokemon Snap take 21 years to develop?

As I previously stated, I acknowledge Nintendo is not going to suddenly aboutface from a handful of tweets sent their direction, but I think it's fair to assume that if nothing takes shape within a decade and a half, it's fair to assume it's not a priority.
 
Enpsty said:
I actually hope that they'll stop listen to the fans. Fans are selfish, toxic and they don't own anything.
Like some wise man once said: an artist that listens to his fans is not an artist, he's a manufacturer.
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So Nintendo surprised and delighted tons of fans with the direct and it’s announcements by creating games that answer a bevy of hopes and dreams, but we should just do away all of that; because some fans are toxic and for some random quote?

Don’t agree and honestly this take seems a bit spiteful and toxic itself. Let people be happy by their wishes being granted.
 
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I think it's more to do with the fact that, unless something goes wrong, like predatory loot boxes, massive glitches, you never hear from game developers. So if a game comes out and it's good or great or whatever, and the people say "we want more of that", you'll never hear the developers go "okay, we'll give you more of that!" until the next game comes out, with, well, more of that.

And this isn't limited to game development, by the way. Music, film, books, etc, are all subject to this.
 
isaacmaltes said:
So Nintendo surprised and delighted tons of fans with the direct and it’s announcements by creating games that answer a bevy of hopes and dreams, but we should just do away all of that; because some fans are toxic and for some random quote?

Don’t agree and honestly this take seems a bit spiteful and toxic itself. Let people be happy by their wishes being granted.
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That's not what I meant. I don't believe companies should be forced to do things because fans demand it.
Nintendo should make a Zelda game that stars Zelda cause they want it not because fans demanded it for years.

I strongly believe that fans request and artistic vision can't co-exist.
 
Enpsty said:
I actually hope that they'll stop listen to the fans. Fans are selfish, toxic and they don't own anything.
Like some wise man once said: an artist that listens to his fans is not an artist, he's a manufacturer.
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Nintendo manufactures games.
 
Enpsty said:
That's not what I meant. I don't believe companies should be forced to do things because fans demand it.
Nintendo should make a Zelda game that stars Zelda cause they want it not because fans demanded it for years.

I strongly believe that fans request and artistic vision can't co-exist.
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People have been asking for a Zelda game starring Zelda for a very long time.
Yes; they probably took that into consideration. But they absolutely waited until they thought the time was right.
 
Enpsty said:
I actually hope that they'll stop listen to the fans. Fans are selfish, toxic and they don't own anything.
Like some wise man once said: an artist that listens to his fans is not an artist, he's a manufacturer.
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Except that while games are art, they are also a manufactured product whose goal is to sell as many copies as possible. It is possible to both listen to fans AND make creative and interesting art. I think the new Zelda is a prime example of that. People asked for Zelda as a playable character for years, and most wanted her to have a unique moveset involving magic. But I would bet most were expecting a slight twist on Link's gameplay, not the complete reimagining we are supposedly getting.
 
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Enpsty said:
Nintendo should see games as art not products.
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Why? They make games with mass appeal. That’s been their MO since the 80s. They’re a toy company first and foremost. They didn’t get this far by ignoring fans or just doing anything they ask. Their success has always been riding the line between charting their own path and also taking feedback into consideration.
 
Enpsty said:
That's not what I meant. I don't believe companies should be forced to do things because fans demand it.
Nintendo should make a Zelda game that stars Zelda cause they want it not because fans demanded it for years.

I strongly believe that fans request and artistic vision can't co-exist.
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I don't think anyone is forcing Nintendo to do anything. If they're doing something the fans request, they're doing it because they feel like there's some value in the request or that they can respond to that request in a creative way. If they were just going to do things because fans are yelling at them, and do it exactly how the fans wanted, then The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom would have been the game that had Zelda as the playable protagonist, Paper Mario: The Origami King would have been an RPG instead of an adventure game, we'd have F-Zero GX HD instead of F-Zero 99 (and it would have happened on the Wii U), etc.
 
They absolutely do listen, the Zelda team in particular.

Making a mainline Legend of Zelda game where Link isn’t playable and Zelda has her own playstyle is unprecedented, way against Nintendo’s usual “unique character gets their own spinoff series” branding style, and absolutely wouldn’t have happened if the fans weren’t asking for it.

People pointed to peach like “they even made Peach playable in a mainline Mario before Zelda!” But Mario was still playable in 3D World.
 
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Brofield said:
Did New Pokemon Snap take 21 years to develop?

As I previously stated, I acknowledge Nintendo is not going to suddenly aboutface from a handful of tweets sent their direction, but I think it's fair to assume that if nothing takes shape within a decade and a half, it's fair to assume it's not a priority.
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Of course, that's what it's all about. Weighing in what the next games will be, and once that's chosen, live with that choice for years. The industry has a well documented staffing problem and studios are limited. And that doesn't event take into account the many, many times a project almost took off but didn't, which I speculate far exceeds the number of games released. It's a slow moving industry


I think a good example is Xbox. The finally have a killer lineup, but it took them years and countless acquisitions (which presumably is a quicker route) to get there
 
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I feel like most of Nintendo's old fan pleasing releases usually have some significant positive iteration or twists and they don't usually feel to restricted by expectations. (Like the new Zelda game) And even when they don't, sometimes the experience is still so polished most people like it and it succeeds. (eg Twilight Princess).

When you experiment a lot like Nintendo you have room to eventually cater to specific fan furore or make a safe iteration.

I think the New Soup games and (yes paper Mario, no discourse) for the last 15 years might have warped some people's expectations of fan opinion being ignored. Stuff takes time, even now.

Frankly as long as I find the final game appealing, I don't really mind if it was entirely new ideas or built on fan expectations and often either has a similar chance to work out.
 
Enpsty said:
I strongly believe that fans request and artistic vision can't co-exist.
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Video games as a medium are so large in scope that it’s entirely possible for developers to acquiesce to fan demands without sacrificing artistic vision and creative ideas. The Switch generation proves that.

Echoes of Wisdom stands as a great example; the fan demands are met (playable Zelda) while the developers are not creatively hindered in any meaningful way (the Tri-Rod). Rinse and repeat for damn near every game they’ve put out in the past 7 years.
 
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Brofield said:
Selfishly, because it takes so long for them to respond indicating they're even listening in the first place.
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Games take a long time to develop. And by the time they hear feedback, it's possible that they're only able to incorporate it two games down the line

I saw Wii U and thought it was THE perfect console for a Pokemon Snap reboot using assymetric gameplay incorporating the tablet, after waiting 13 years since the first and only entry. Wii U fizzled, and after waiting nearly two decades with nary a whisper I personally gave up at that point. I was convinced of nothing more than VC re-releases over and over again until the heatdeath of the universe as nothing more than lip service to pay homage to history.
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You said it yourself, Wii U fizzled. A new Snap game at the time would've bombed. TPC doesn't really care about innovating with hardware that much

Was it a welcome surprise? Absolutely! Did it meet expectations? Exceeded them; I happily put in 80 hours and will gladly pop it on now and then to chip away at the photodex. But by the time they showed it off I was more shocked than pleasantly surprised. What on Earth convinced them now? Who the hell had blackmail on the C-suite at Nintendo/Game Freak to make them farm it out to Bamco?
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What convinced them now was probably the Switch being a gargantuan success. Even then, the game only sold alright, not amazingly. In retrospect it's very understandable why a new one hadn't been a high priority for them
 
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Enpsty said:
That's not what I meant. I don't believe companies should be forced to do things because fans demand it.
Nintendo should make a Zelda game that stars Zelda cause they want it not because fans demanded it for years.

I strongly believe that fans request and artistic vision can't co-exist.
Click to expand...
Fan requests and artistic vision can co-exist. Look at the new Zelda game: it has a playable Zelda ("fan request"), but the game design is made in the way Nintendo wants ("artistic vision").

Or look at Mario Wonder: it is a new 2D Mario game that breaks with the the NSMB tradition ("fan request"), but the game is made in the way Nintendo wants.

Nintendo is in the business of selling millions of copies of each game they produce. To be able to do so, they need to find a balance between listen to what the audience "wants", and also have artistic integrity to do their own thing is surprising new ways.
 
ILikeFeet said:
Aonuma has often said a playable Zelda is something he and the team thinks about a lot. so I'm glad they finally nailed down a direction
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Same here and she had a unique mechanic that makes her differ from link.
Secu said:
I am worried that this behavior will eventually lead Nintendo to become a mediocre company.
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How so? Because they listen to their fans? There's a difference of a small idea vs letting your fans take control of your franchise.


GPKs3 said:
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I think it is bound to happen. We are at a time now, where it feels right.
 
Anyone who doesn't think Nintendo listens is ironically the one who isn't paying attention. They're always listening, but it might be obscured by the fact that the market is not a monolith and development takes TIME.

Just look at Mario Party Jamboree: aside from the obvious surface points of the character and board rosters, they're going out of their way to appeal to fans of both button and motion controls instead of focusing on one or the other, leading to the largest minigame roster ever.
 
Rychu_Supadude said:
Anyone who doesn't think Nintendo listens is ironically the one who isn't paying attention. They're always listening, but it might be obscured by the fact that the market is not a monolith and development takes TIME.

Just look at Mario Party Jamboree: aside from the obvious surface points of the character and board rosters, they're going out of their way to appeal to fans of both button and motion controls instead of focusing on one or the other, leading to the largest minigame roster ever.
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Exactly, i think they are getting a feel for what people want in Mario Party and they listen to the criticism.
 
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Listening your fans is good, but only listening your fans is not good. So simple.

Fans is not operating the company, they don't know there are so many things that operators need to consider.
 
omniryu said:
Same here and she had a unique mechanic that makes her differ from link.

How so? Because they listen to their fans? There's a difference of a small idea vs letting your fans take control of your franchise.



I think it is bound to happen. We are at a time now, where it feels right.
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I have heard a saying that excellent companies create demand, while average companies meet demand.
 
they didn't listen to me, though.
I want a souls-like game where the player controls a supposed heiress of a long-fallen kingdom who once reigned peacefully over the region but succumbed to an unknown invader's dark forces.
 
They have always listened but people on places like this one don't seem to accept that making games takes more than having some idea that will somehow materialize into a game three years later. This is one big reason why these types of discussions have become super off-putting and I was hoping that at least Famiboards would be spared of them.
 
Enpsty said:
I actually hope that they'll stop listen to the fans. Fans are selfish, toxic and they don't own anything.
Like some wise man once said: an artist that listens to his fans is not an artist, he's a manufacturer.
Click to expand...

I think more importantly, artists know how to make art better than fans do.

Same thing with films and tv...
 
Secu said:
I have heard a saying that excellent companies create demand, while average companies meet demand.
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Or they could do both?
browneyes84 said:
I think more importantly, artists know how to make art better than fans do.

Same thing with films and tv...
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But games are a product. Miyamoto never called it art. No one at Nintendo ever did. Also, listening doesn't mean that's all you do. No one asked for Cadence of hyrule ( and I don't mean that with a negative connotation). Yet, Nintendo gave it to us because they like the idea of a rhythm zelda game.
 
I mean, Nintendo only listened because Nintendo heard it. The chances of Nintendo hearing it are increased by people repeating it instead of saying it once then never again, and the "lack of patience" is what drove those people to keep asking for those products til the message got to Nintendo. I find it a bit weird that you'd expect people to "stop saying Nintendo doesn't listen" as if informal Internet discourse were some kind of monolith, more often than not people are just casually venting frustrations instead of seriously making a legal statement on how Nintendo operates.
 
omniryu said:
Or they could do both?

But games are a product. Miyamoto never called it art. No one at Nintendo ever did. Also, listening doesn't mean that's all you do. No one asked for Cadence of hyrule ( and I don't mean that with a negative connotation). Yet, Nintendo gave it to us because they like the idea of a rhythm zelda game.
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Okay, what I posted before was actually just being clever and boastful.

Actually, there's nothing to say about these, what I want to say is more practical.

Nintendo has gained some benefits by adopting this strategy. But this is only based on the premise that the demands of fans are generally consistent at the current stage.

When this premise disappears, this strategy will bring constant trouble.
 
Enpsty said:
I actually hope that they'll stop listen to the fans. Fans are selfish, toxic and they don't own anything.
Like some wise man once said: an artist that listens to his fans is not an artist, he's a manufacturer.
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To be fair, an artist that listens to his fans is called a designer, and we call the profession game design, not game artistry, for a reason.
I agree with your first sentence though, I think it's more that they should listen to their users, not their fans. Fans are per definition monomanic and narrowminded, and entertainment needs diversity of thoughts and expression.
 
Bowser Sr. said:
I mean, Nintendo only listened because Nintendo heard it. The chances of Nintendo hearing it are increased by people repeating it instead of saying it once then never again, and the "lack of patience" is what drove those people to keep asking for those products til the message got to Nintendo. I find it a bit weird that you'd expect people to "stop saying Nintendo doesn't listen" as if informal Internet discourse were some kind of monolith, more often than not people are just casually venting frustrations instead of seriously making a legal statement on how Nintendo operates.
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But that's the idea. People WILL try to convince you Nintendo doesn't listen. I mean yeah, of course one person dating it or saying it once isn't enough. However, my point still stand that people will convince you that Nintendo never listens and that it is pointless. I want megaman legends if we are loud enough repeatedly, maybe Capcom will listen as well.
 
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