Discussion The "We Don't Want Achievements But" Thread

[Sheldon]

I don't like achievments, but every now and then I do something uniquely cool in a video game and the proud moment would have been topped off perfectly by a message popping on screen of the game acknowledging me. It wouldn't even need to be tracked. It can just be a quick pat on the back, a knowing glance, a fleeting nod of approval. Like an "I see you" and an "Maybe only you and me know how cool the thing was you just did but that's enough."

So, in that spirit, name a feat you pulled off which a game didn't recognize but you wish it had?

I'll start with my own thing that inspired the thread: Taking down an Ink Jet (a highly mobile flying jetpack that fires fast and straight-traveling long-range one-hit-kill explosives) with an Explosher (a near-strationary ground weapon that fires slow-ass projectiles in a hard-to-aim arch and needs two direct hits to kill) in Splatoon. It's comparable to winning a 10-90 unfavorable match-up in, say, a fighting game and the good feeling you get from that.

 

[Edie Napier]

I've killed somebody traveling along the ink lines with the charger and let out an audible holler. Also killing two or more people with a single charger shot.

SL1 run in Dark Souls 1. Soloing the Abyssal God in Etrian Odyssey 3.

 

[Brofield]

When I actually win an online match against random players in SSBU

Unfortunately all the feats I could think of were purely accidental rather than actual skill being involved haha, but recently I was replaying SSX Tricky and by some stroke of luck I knocked someone down just before a ramp, and pulled off not one but two consecutive Big Tricky maneuvers within the same charge.

Worst of all was that my memory card didn't even have enough storage to save the replay, but dammit all I felt as though somewhere through the cosmos, Run-DMC was proud of me.

 

[EvilChameleon]

Was playing one of the Gears games with some friends one day. I wasn't doing well, so I set up shop behind a pillar and set my controller down to go grab a water from the kitchen. Came back to an enemy player roadie running towards my position, so I quickly picked up the controller, pulled the trigger, and got a headshot. My friends went bonkers and I could hear them going crazy even though I didn't even have my headset on at the time.

 

[GAP]

I feel like a lot of games miss an opportunity to honor me having witnessed environmental storytelling or reading a log. My favorite example of this actually happening is in ODST when Rookie meets the Huragok that was helping him. If you didn’t get all the (well made) diaries then not only does Rookie point his gun at it but you also miss some extra stuff with an officer. If you do get them all then Rookie has all the context you do and coaxes the Huragok out gently. Very nice!

An example against this reward would be in Bioshock 2 when you get to I believe Dionysus Park. There is an audio log from Billy reading out his letter to a little girl he has a crush on, a Little Sister. He says he plans to give a gift to her Dad to take home to her with the letter and that he admires how protective her Dad is. Shortly after you can find a dead Big Daddy behind a locked gate, crushed by rubble. And in his hand is the gift box and letter containing a rose you can pick up. Which does nothing for you and there’s no remark or achievement about it. I think leaving that up to me to work out is extremely effective and I’m not sure how I’d feel about it being pointed out. Bonus points you can even find out what happens to Billy’s own dad much, much later in the game and similarly no remarks from the game about it.

 

[Suswave]

I hate achievements and achievement systems, so I agree with like... a smidge of the premise!

it's true that in a lot of games, doing weird shit is its own reward. I'm definitely more in favor of subtlety.

but, with all of that said... there have been a couple instances where I've wished a game was more rewarding for something weird!

major example — that might not even qualify — Death's Door has this beautiful, ominous door you can open if you're a real completionist. I loved the game a lot, and my wife and I tag-teamed some post-game stuff to open the door.

and... the big reward was an extra cutscene!

which isn't necessarily bad...

but, by comparison, we had similarly tag-teamed the Path of Pain in Hollow Knight. immensely difficult. all you get is the pride of having done it (which, honestly, worked for such a challenging thing!) and a two-second cutscene. but the cutscene, if you've been following the story, has an outsized emotional weight. we came away satisfied.

the Death's Door cutscene — again, a game we loved — didn't quite grab us the same way.

the quest to get there was a true end-game collectathon — laid back, leisurely, a little puzzling, but not exactly a tense challenge.

and the scene itself deepens the lore... but only if you've played their other game. it felt like a tie-in that could have been brilliant with a boss fight before or after — something to make the big door of mystery something other than an extra tidbit that didn't have immediate weight from within the game itself.

my takeaway, I guess, is that I wanted the achievement itself to have more weight. but maybe I'd feel differently if I had played their first game.

 

[9-Volt]

The amount of shinies I've caught. The game does recognize but not reward that big feat. I should be able to show off that success, to everyone I know. Achievement or not.

 

[Suswave]

since we're all here, I'm curious about something. y'all seem like the right audience for this!

if you haven't seen me around, hi! I'm Suswave. I'm currently on a game called Grögol Bonanza. it'll be my first "real" game, so I've been learning a ton.

I don't want the game to end up as an example in this thread! lmao

but I also want to be true to my staunch and stubborn hatred of achievement systems

I'm trying to make the game feel rewarding in weird ways. It's a top-down creature-catching rpg that sort of riffs on "minimalist maximalism" — for example, the tilemap is super basic with some scraggly little flourishes, but the number of areas is unhinged

(projected at 1000 scenes with 5-50 per area but dear god do NOT hold me to that)

so, to keep it interesting, I have a lot of little intrigue factors planned.

my question is — do these sound like they'll be satisfying from a gameplay perspective?

Examples:

1. Obsessively pursuing seemingly meaningless tasks will have rewards or consequences. For instance, there's a pair of ugly shoes. As soon as you open the chest that they're in, the player character throws them into the lake. But, if you're persistent, you can get them back. Not just for the joy of it — they open a fucked up door to a whole new area.

2. You fill out your Grögolpedia, but as you get further in the game, you can pick up different apps, cataloging people, places, restaurants, music, and more. You also gain abilities to see data you couldn't see before in unexpected ways.

3. Each area is an iceberg — coming back with more abilities will almost always open up another path, for better or worse.

4. Doing weird things several times can actually affect the outcome of the game, or even the complete trajectory of the game.

5. Making friends also opens up new interactions and even areas.

I know this is fairly vague, but... in the limited context, do some of these things sound satisfying or amusing? Or should I be attaching some sort of boring and immediate reward to more of these abstract situations?

 

[Razgriz]

The thing is; I don't hate achievements. Astral Chain has 236 achievements. I've 100% completed that game like, 4 times. But what I don't like are achievement trackers. They replace the feeling of "oh, wow, that's cool, I got a neat thing" with "if I don't Platinum this game or get the publicly visible achievement that I have beaten it, it'll make my account look bad/incomplete".

It's like playtime tracking; seemingly innocuous until you get a brainworm in your head that has you obsessively check howlongtobeat to see if you're willing to spend the time with a game.

Also just... a bunch of games have poorly designed achievements on their trackers. "Beat the main story" is an achievement worth tracking. Beat 100000 of the weakest enemy in the game isn't. Beat the game on the hardest difficulty? Worthwhile to track externally if the difficulty is well designed. Beat the game on the "we'll kick you IRL if you die" difficulty? Not worthwhile to track externally, maybe give a star on the save file for it or something.

I personally like the Nintendo approach, where there's a list of achievements/things to do if you want to go for completion, but it's just not tracked anywhere outside of the game itself. That way I don't feel bad for not hitting the same enemy a million times since it's a badly designed idea in the first place.

As far as cool feats go: I've managed to do a run with the A variant of every ship in FTL: Faster than Light in a row without dying (back in like, 2014). That's something I'm always kinda proud of.

 

[GAP]

my question is — do these sound like they'll be satisfying from a gameplay perspective?

Examples:

1. Obsessively pursuing seemingly meaningless tasks will have rewards or consequences. For instance, there's a pair of ugly shoes. As soon as you open the chest that they're in, the player character throws them into the lake. But, if you're persistent, you can get them back. Not just for the joy of it — they open a fucked up door to a whole new area.

2. You fill out your Grögolpedia, but as you get further in the game, you can pick up different apps, cataloging people, places, restaurants, music, and more. You also gain abilities to see data you couldn't see before in unexpected ways.

3. Each area is an iceberg — coming back with more abilities will almost always open up another path, for better or worse.

4. Doing weird things several times can actually affect the outcome of the game, or even the complete trajectory of the game.

5. Making friends also opens up new interactions and even areas.

I know this is fairly vague, but... in the limited context, do some of these things sound satisfying or amusing? Or should I be attaching some sort of boring and immediate reward to more of these abstract situations?

No objections to any of these examples but kinda hard to say with just this context. Sounds like a fun game though!

 

[Suswave]

No objections to any of these examples but kinda hard to say with just this context. Sounds like a fun game though!

hopefully I'll be able to show you all in a few years!

I'm dropping a just walking around no combat whatsoever demo sometime this month — I'll be sure to pop back in here when I do!

here's an outdated tiny peek from a couple years ago:



and here's a more recent peek:

 

[Dizzle]

I stopped playing Slay the Spire. Where's my Nintendo-style "wow, good job going outside" message????

 

[Me]

I need an achievement for whenever I get beaten down to low health and then miraculously survive somehow.

 

[Suswave]

I need an achievement for whenever I get beaten down to low health and then miraculously survive somehow.

I need that in real life, lmao

 

[meatbag]

my question is — do these sound like they'll be satisfying from a gameplay perspective?

I'm not huge on meaningless tasks myself.

Everything else sounds great though. Doing weird things and making friends to open up new interactions is something I wish more games did!

 

[Suswave]

I'm not huge on meaningless tasks myself.

Everything else sounds great though. Doing weird things and making friends to open up new interactions is something I wish more games did!

which ones sound meaningless, just out of curiosity?

 

[meatbag]

which ones sound meaningless, just out of curiosity?

Oh sorry, I meant option 1, the "pursuing seemingly meaningless tasks"

 

[kasparov77]

i dont want achievements
BUT
if they come with silver coins im all up for it

 

[AstroOhHey]

I dig something like Team Fortress 2's achievements as a lot of them tend to be for hyper specific situations you pulled off or other obscure feats you can show off. Bog-standard stuff like GOT PAST START SCREEN/COMPLETED TUTORIAL/JUMPED ON ENEMY FIVE TIMES is pointless and Nintendo were correct in not seriously considering them come the Wii/Wii U/Switch.

 

[JorgenRaft]

I always found it interesting how opposed many folks in the Nintendo fandom can be regarding achievements, when Nintendo games themselves are so often ingrained in the collect-a-thon genre. Everyone is different, though, obviously.

I think achievements are fun, and it's cool that they're tied to your account so that others can see what you've done as well.

It's also just interesting statistics wise, such as being able to see what percentage of players actually beat a game. Hell, imagine being able to see the hilarious percentage of people who collected all the Korok seeds in either BotW or TotK.

 

[Phendrift]

I’ve warmed up more to achievements/trophies over the past couple of years. So I wouldn’t mind Nintendo adding them somehow, though I’m also fine with more in game ones like the Smash challenge wall or the boss medals in BotW/TotK.

Honestly it’s the games that have ridiculous grindy platinums that I still have a problem with. Square Enix in particular is really really fucking bad at this.

 

[Suswave]

I always found it interesting how opposed many folks in the Nintendo fandom can be regarding achievements, when Nintendo games themselves are so often ingrained in the collect-a-thon genre. Everyone is different, though, obviously.

I think achievements are fun, and it's cool that they're tied to your account so that others can see what you've done as well.

It's also just interesting statistics wise, such as being able to see what percentage of players actually beat a game. Hell, imagine being able to see the hilarious percentage of people who collected all the Korok seeds in either BotW or TotK.

the spirit of a collectathon and the spirit of public achievements are two very different things

I think Nintendo believes this too

the nature of an in-game collectathon is player-set objective. there are lots of things going on, but the impetus is self-contained and on the player to prioritize.

ie someone playing a recent Zelda isn't necessarily compelled to do all the shrines — perhaps just the ones they find along the way. there's not driving force other than the game itself, and what the player finds fun.

the second you introduce comparative networked stats to that, you create infinite comparison. these systems are quite literally designed to make players compare and compete — robbing them of the grace of a self-contained experience.

if you see that, say, 70% of players easily surpassed something you had trouble with and decided wasn't important to you in the flow of the game, you feel bad.

and maybe you have a better framework for that. maybe you can tell yourself that it shouldn't pressure you to go back in and do something you already decided you didn't want to do.

but Nintendo still remembers that kids play their damn games! and doesn't want to make kids feel like shit about playing games! enjoyment brings people back over and over in the long run, not slogs and manufactured peer pressure! the immediate "more player" numbers gain from things like networked achievements has a tendency to burn the average player out more, makes them ask why they really came back to make a number go up when they didn't really want to.

and it's not that shit's not competitive — there are still (optional, often intentionally tucked to the side) leaderboards in shit, or reasons to achieve goals. but it's always per game, self-contained, for that audience, and not required of all things!

the Nintendo approach values whatever time you've decided to spend in a game however you've decided to spend it.

and I think that is drastically better for the players — and industry.

 

[JorgenRaft]

the spirit of a collectathon and the spirit of public achievements are two very different things

I think Nintendo believes this too

the nature of an in-game collectathon is player-set objective. there are lots of things going on, but the impetus is self-contained and on the player to prioritize.

ie someone playing a recent Zelda isn't necessarily compelled to do all the shrines — perhaps just the ones they find along the way. there's not driving force other than the game itself, and what the player finds fun.

the second you introduce comparative networked stats to that, you create infinite comparison. these systems are quite literally designed to make players compare and compete — robbing them of the grace of a self-contained experience.

if you see that, say, 70% of players easily surpassed something you had trouble with and decided wasn't important to you in the flow of the game, you feel bad.

and maybe you have a better framework for that. maybe you can tell yourself that it shouldn't pressure you to go back in and do something you already decided you didn't want to do.

but Nintendo still remembers that kids play their damn games! and doesn't want to make kids feel like shit about playing games! enjoyment brings people back over and over in the long run, not slogs and manufactured peer pressure! the immediate "more player" numbers gain from things like networked achievements has a tendency to burn the average player out more, makes them ask why they really came back to make a number go up when they didn't really want to.

and it's not that shit's not competitive — there are still (optional, often intentionally tucked to the side) leaderboards in shit, or reasons to achieve goals. but it's always per game, self-contained, for that audience, and not required of all things!

the Nintendo approach values whatever time you've decided to spend in a game however you've decided to spend it.

and I think that is drastically better for the players — and industry.

Yeah I see where you're coming from. I'm just on the opposite side where I see them as only adding enjoyment as opposed to taking any sense of accomplishment away. I never really saw the statistical aspect of achievements or trophies to be competitive, more just interesting to look at. I wouldn't consider skipping an achievement to be any more unfulfilling than skipping a skip quest in a game, and Nintendo games have plenty of those. It's all up to the player, they aren't required. These systems have been a part of Xbox/PS/Steam for a long time now and I've never really experienced a large voice expressing a sense of feeling bad or missing out when comparing their achievements to others.

And I'd feel more fulfilled having a nice little badge on my account showing that I collected all the moons in Mario Odyssey instead of them putting a giant hat on Peach's castle. Or instead of a piece of poop for collecting all the Korok seeds (as funny as that is).

 

[SiG]

Yeah I see where you're coming from. I'm just on the opposite side where I see them as only adding enjoyment as opposed to taking any sense of accomplishment away. I never really saw the statistical aspect of achievements or trophies to be competitive, more just interesting to look at. I wouldn't consider skipping an achievement to be any more unfulfilling than skipping a skip quest in a game, and Nintendo games have plenty of those. It's all up to the player, they aren't required. These systems have been a part of Xbox/PS/Steam for a long time now and I've never really experienced a large voice expressing a sense of feeling bad or missing out when comparing their achievements to others.

And I'd feel more fulfilled having a nice little badge on my account showing that I collected all the moons in Mario Odyssey instead of them putting a giant hat on Peach's castle. Or instead of a piece of poop for collecting all the Korok seeds (as funny as that is).

I honestly consider the statistical approach to be rather shallow, and not really add to the overall gaming experience, not to mention this level of patronizing takes me away from the experience especially when those annoying notifications pop-up. "Shut up, game! Yes, I did a thing. Stop telling me I did a thing!"

What I want is the Masahiro Sakurai take on Achievements: The Checkerboard. Clearing parts of the checkerboard unlock more challenges...and doing so will net you in-game rewards. And if you decide to ignore a challenge...you can just tackle an ajacent challenge or "clear it" using a limited number of tokens such as "Hammers" (see Kirby Air Ride). To me, this is a more proactive approach with making the player aware that there are "achievements" without forcing it in their face with some milestone accomplishment that just pops out of nowhere. What's worse it that the achievement system implemented by these other platforms are almost purely for bragging rights and rarely do they net you in-game benefits.

It reminds me of that annoying "Xbox 360 Achievments Ad kid" as to why I hate its implementation.

 

[JorgenRaft]

I honestly consider the statistical approach to be rather shallow, and not really add to the overall gaming experience, not to mention this level of patronizing takes me away from the experience especially when those annoying notifications pop-up. "Shut up, game! Yes, I did a thing. Stop telling me I did a thing!"

What I want is the Masahiro Sakurai take on Achievements: The Checkerboard. Clearing parts of the checkerboard unlock more challenges...and doing so will net you in-game rewards. And if you decide to ignore a challenge...you can just tackle an ajacent challenge or "clear it" using a limited number of tokens such as "Hammers" (see Kirby Air Ride).

Sure, it doesn't add anything for some people. But obviously there is an audience out there that loves going for them, whether for the fun it or any other reason. I don't think adding them as a feature takes anything away. And you can always turn the notifications off to ignore them even further.

I did always like Brawl's system, too. That was fun. Though I'm not sure a system like that wouldn't work for every game while it totally did work for Smash.

 

[Suswave]

Oh sorry, I meant option 1, the "pursuing seemingly meaningless tasks"

ah! lmao

it's, hmm. not that they're meaningless, even though that's the phrase I used.

but like — they could be played off as one-off gags. you could leave, and it could just be a bit.

but I also want to reward weird persistence with silly follow-through.

here's the shoe sequence:

you're sent to this cave to get some shoes. yes, really.

and you see a cooler out of reach... but you can't cross the gap!

if you turn around and head out... that gleaming thing on the floor activates, teleporting you to a dungeon somewhere else.

at the end of it, you get DASHING BOOTS! cool, you can dash now, including across gaps!

but if you go back to where the quest began... the dude tells you those aren't the shoes he wanted. so you get to keep them.

at this point, you can leave the village! your adventure can begin in earnest!

but if you're compelled, with your new boots, you can scoot back to the cave and dash the gap...

and you could just leave it at that, for the gag!

but... you could also keep going down this road

 

[Suswave]

And I'd feel more fulfilled having a nice little badge on my account showing that I collected all the moons in Mario Odyssey instead of them putting a giant hat on Peach's castle. Or instead of a piece of poop for collecting all the Korok seeds (as funny as that is).

I guess at the core it's the difference between bragging rights to strangers vs. contained enjoyment.

like I guess for me it's like if you got more joy out of posting a picture of your meal on Instagram than you did from eating it. that's just fundamentally the opposite of what I'm alive for.

 

[jirou]

First thing I thought of was Mario Odyssey having piles of coins in places you'd think the devs didn't want you to get to. It happened frequently and was always fun. Other than that I usually just use screenshot/video if I did something cool. I'm also not as negative on achievements, never really hunt for them, but they can be fun extra challenges.

 

[jirou]

I guess at the core it's the difference between bragging rights to strangers vs. contained enjoyment.

I agree that's how many people engage with achievements but what about it being sharing something with friends as opposed to bragging to strangers?

 

[VintoWin]

Eh, I mean achievements will bring new life to replaying and rebuying old Nintendo games for the 3rd...4th.... time.

As superficial as it might be. You can argue that in-game challenges themselves can be superficial as well. External achievements can be designed in a way that they are good guideposts for your gaming experience and track your realistic completion of a title for self-satisfaction.

 

[Suswave]

I agree that's how many people engage with achievements but what about it being sharing something with friends as opposed to bragging to strangers?

eh, I suppose, but I'd rather take a screenshot and text about it than leave a note on the door for whoever walks by

like one is engagement, and the other to me is so... removed. it doesn't connect people the same way. it feels like you left your doc chart out in the hospital and someone's looking at your height and labs and saying "woh bra u got denser hemogoblins than I"

like. it kinda feels invasive to me?

 

[jirou]

eh, I suppose, but I'd rather take a screenshot and text about it than leave a note on the door for whoever walks by

this I definitely agree with and it's how I do it personally

 

[JorgenRaft]

I guess at the core it's the difference between bragging rights to strangers vs. contained enjoyment.

like I guess for me it's like if you got more joy out of posting a picture of your meal on Instagram than you did from eating it. that's just fundamentally the opposite of what I'm alive for.

Well no, “bragging” isn’t the sole source of enjoyment as far as going for achievements. They can also add new challenges to accomplish that can provide players an opportunity to get more out of the game.

But I also didn’t go to go to my college graduation and reject my diploma on stage just because I knew I already got the 4 year experience, you know? Having the symbol of your achievement is nice sometimes.

 

[crazybenjamin]

In Mario Kart, I do find it satisfying whenever I throw a banana or a bomb and it perfectly lands on an opponent's head.

As for the "We don't want achievements but" part: It's less that I'm outright opposed to system-wide achievements, and more that I don't agree with the idea that Nintendo's "achievements are the responsibility of the games themselves" approach is straight up beyond the pale. I can understand people disagreeing with that approach, but people act hyperbolic about it in a way that I would only understand if Nintendo was completely unfamiliar with the concept of checking off a list of in-game goals as you go through them.

It reminds me of that annoying "Xbox 360 Achievments Ad kid" as to why I hate its implementation.

Today I learned that was an actual ad and not just something that someone made up.

 

[JazzyFuture]

I'm more surprised people here hate achievements beyond the ones that are just the studio's thinly veiled checks to see how far people got in their game like "kill 500 enemies".
Personally I prefer my achievements to unlock something in game, cause it's the only way for me to go out of my way to get achievements unless I just love playing the game.
Love when I check the achievement list in a game and it hints at unlocking something for doing something absurd, the Sakurai Checklist is still one of the best implementations of that idea I've seen. Shoutouts to the Doom engine Sonic fangame, Dr Robotnik's Ring Racers, for having an extensive checklist of unlockables set up exactly like Smash/Air Ride/Uprising.

 

[ImpromptuR]

I'll start with my own thing that inspired the thread: Taking down an Ink Jet (a highly mobile flying jetpack that fires fast and straight-traveling long-range one-hit-kill explosives) with an Explosher (a near-strationary ground weapon that fires slow-ass projectiles in a hard-to-aim arch and needs two direct hits to kill) in Splatoon. It's comparable to winning a 10-90 unfavorable match-up in, say, a fighting game and the good feeling you get from that.

Incredible.

Well, once I splatted someone with the Splash Wall. Splatoon would give us a lot of weird recognition.
I also have splats with the Angle Shooter (before the buff) and with the Sprinkler. At least in game would be cool to have a weird badge for that.

 

[Sheldon]

Incredible.

Well, once I splatted someone with the Splash Wall. Splatoon would give us a lot of weird recognition.
I also have splats with the Angle Shooter (before the buff) and with the Sprinkler. At least in game would be cool to have a weird badge for that.

When Marina said the three most embarassing words in Inklish are "Death by Sprinkler" I felt seen in the way I want these non-achievement acknowledgement pop-ups to see me.

 

[Edie Napier]

Incredible.

Well, once I splatted someone with the Splash Wall. Splatoon would give us a lot of weird recognition.
I also have splats with the Angle Shooter (before the buff) and with the Sprinkler. At least in game would be cool to have a weird badge for that.

I did this once when the splash wall deployed, and I started shouting lyrics from Guillotine by Death Grips.

 

[ImpromptuR]

When Marina said the three most embarassing words in Inklish are "Death by Sprinkler" I felt seen in the way I want these non-achievement acknowledgement pop-ups to see me.

My sprinkler claimed so many lives in Splatzones on Scorch Gorge.

And to be fair, I was also splatted a couple of times by the sprinkler. It just happened, haha.

 

[Thorakai]

I was so scared playing the original Dead Space on PS3 years ago that I walked through the entire game with my pistol drawn at all times so I wouldn’t be caught off guard by jump scares and die. Took my sweet ass time let me tell you.

 

[Stopdoor]

oh, I suddenly was reminiscing and then remembered this thread lol, so, in 3D All-Stars I actually beat the Pachinko level in Super Mario Sunshine on my first try.

There's probably no better fact to show you're way too nostalgia brained to give an unbiased opinion on a game - lol